280770 Mon Nov 07 14:04:48 -0800 2005 20 31 Home Cooking 0 1492444 I am just starting to plan an entire kitchen renovation (actually, I'm moving it to a new floor so it's really a kitchen creation). I need to start scoping out appliances and other such things. Do you have any suggestions of appliances and accesories you love, can't live without etc.? or anything you wish you had never bought? I am going quality mid-range, GE profile, LG kinda brands so any comments you have would be appreciated. As a bonus if you've done anything with your kitchens (placement of important items, etc) that you think everyone should know, please pass it on. I have a blank slate and need all the input i can get! Thanks!!! Mon Nov 07 14:04:48 -0800 2005 0 sushisasha 1 1492465 On the dishwasher end of things, the dish-drawers are the way to go. Fisher-Paykell was the first (and still the most expensive) but I think all the major manufacturers are doing them now. Particularly if you are a small family or a couple. I have a double drawer model and only use both drawers when entertaining or when I go nuts in the kitchen. Most days I just use one. Saves on water and energy. and they look good, take up the same space as a reg dishwasher. Mon Nov 07 15:13:09 -0800 2005 1492444 0 Karen 1 1492476 Whether this would be advantageous for you depends on the size and layout of your kitchen, but we did a complete renovation a couple years ago and the one thing (other than a 48" commercial range installation, which I assume would blow the budget) that has made the most difference for me was installing a smallish prep sink within reach of the range. Mon Nov 07 15:38:53 -0800 2005 1492444 0 FlyFish 1 1492486 We designed our own kitchen and had it built in 2001. I learned a few things in the process: Watch out buying cabinets. Its very easy to end up with one too many or one too few. Make sure your flooring is very durable (like stone) but still comfortable to stand on (like wood). Not so easy.... I LOVE my Bosch dishwasher, but it was seriously expensive. I hate my Viking refrigerator, and it was even more expensive. I've had problems with a thermadore cooktop (4-burner), but neither love nor hate it. Don't put a bathroom in your kitchen (if at all possible). Make sure you match the sink fixtures to the type of sink you buy. Some sinks are made for faucets with individual hot and cold handles, some are not. Granite countertops are really nice, but they show up dirt and are very expensive. We did NOT get a big hooded vent. My wife wishes we did, I am glad we did not. Having the dishwasher right next to the sink is really nice. I love butcher block, but you cannot use it as a cutting board. Undercabinet lighting looks cool but drives your electricity bills up. My cousin is an interior designer and told us to try to make an unobstructed triangle between the sink, stove and refrigerator. Leave a place for cookbooks, papers, mail, etc. -- stuff that ends up in the kitchen no matter what you do. Mon Nov 07 16:10:08 -0800 2005 1492444 0 cheapskate 2 1492592 I was just curious as to what you hate about the Viking fridge and what you think could be a better choice for a stove than the Thermidor. I'm moving into a new house soon and was at the appliance store looking at the newest versions of these products just a few hours ago. I'd like to get a Viking stove (only room for the 30", but I love cooking with the high heat!) Your opinion would be much appreciated! Mon Nov 07 22:26:48 -0800 2005 1492486 0 forkyfork 3 1492635 I hate my Viking refrigerator because it keeps breaking. People have had tons of trouble with them. It's working pretty well now, but little things like leaving the freezer door open accidently can cause the whole thing to basically shut down. I hear Sub-Zeros aren't perfect either, so there goes the idea that you get what you pay for. As for the Thermador cooktop, it too has required repair twice since 2001 for knob mechanisms that broke. I don't have any experience with other fancy ranges like Viking, sorry. Tue Nov 08 09:36:29 -0800 2005 1492592 0 cheapskate 1 1492500 I'm pleased with my (granted 15 years old) GE gas cooktop and self-cleaning oven. The cleaning feature is worth its weight in gold. Separated burners mean I can slap on a big cast iron skillet or a dutch oven and still have room for other pans. I do wish the burners came with a inner simmer feature, but I guess those went the way of the O'Keefe & Merrit behemoths of the 50's. The oven is fine, holds temp well, and doesn't seem to have hot spots. The electronic control features are easy to use. I never use the broiler, so don't know much about it. I DO like the stainless steel top; it's quality, well-finished stainless, so it's easy to clean and is still virtually scratch-free (No SOS pads in my house) after 15 years. My GE dishwaher, same vintage, got dishes sparkling but was very noisy, so we traded it for a Maytag "superquiet" but IT is very fussy about loading patterns and I have to run it without soap every two weeks, or suds and tiny hard bits of food build up in the bottom and it won't rinse worth a durn. It is fairly quiet, but I'd get a Bosch next time. My sis-in-law has one and it is the best appliance in her kitchen. In planning your new kitchen, make sure the ceiling is high enough if you think you want a hanging pot pack! Mine's too low to have one >sniff< Also, try to get some consulting on lighting. Nothing's worse than poor lighting while trying to turn out a great meal. (unless maybe poor cross ventilation.) You lucky dog! have at it and have fun! Mon Nov 07 16:54:26 -0800 2005 1492444 0 toodie jane 1 1492505 We remodeled our kitchen a few years ago and here are some of the things we did that delighted me: - no hanging cabinets. I am short and I was tired of hopping onto the counter to get things out. - custom cabinets with roll-out trays are wonderful. You don't lose things at the back as you do with regular cabinets and you don't have to go digging for the pots you need every night. - I had a choice between having one more set of cabinets or a second range, so now I have both a gas range and an electric. We don't need it often but when we do, it's great. - a second full-size sink. If two people cook in a kitchen they will most likely collide at the sink. Having a second one is much less expensive than marriage counseling. - more natural light. I went from one 24-inch window to three 30-inch windows and the difference is amazing. - can you put in a pantry? Being able to see those canned goods and jars of beans means you're more likely to actually use them. - no fancy countertops. We brought home various stone surfaces and did test stains on them with red wine, vinegar, mustard and so on and realized that we'd wreck them in no time. - hardwood floor is definitely the way to go. Tile is too hard and will kill your knees and back, plus when you drop something glass you run the risk of fracturing both the glass and a tile. Vinyl gets grungy quickly. Make sure you buy solid wood flooring, not veneer, though, because eventually you might need to refinish it. Mon Nov 07 17:02:16 -0800 2005 1492444 0 jillp 2 1492567 jillp- your lengthy post was great and got me thinking about my soon coming kitchen renovation. to expand/inquire about some of your suggestions: hanging cabinets- since you don't have any do you have a lack of storage space? i myself am not tall, so i keep a step stool in the kitchen for this reason. my kitchen although not small is not that big either, but i think it'd be better to utilize the wall space. custom cabinets- very ideal and most likely what we'll be getting, but it does add quite a bit to the cost. roll out trays are definitely convenient, but for my pots and pans i am thinking about hanging them under an island. not from the ceiling because it looks too cluttered for my taste if it's more visible, but hanging underneath for easy reaching. second full size sink- space can be an issue. i was considering a full size and a smaller sink built into the island. my bf does not cook but always has an urge to wash his hands while i am draining food in the sink, so i agree that 2 sinks is key if there is room for two. more natural light- that is a great idea. i already have an idea of what i want in my kitchen to be but this did not cross my mind. my kitchen gets plenty of natural light, but more can't hurt. thanks for that suggestion. pantry- i think it's a must. right now my "pantry", more like a cramped closet, sucks and i can't wait to build a pantry even if it means one or two less cabinets. having a pantry makes a kitchen much more functional. fancy tops- i was considering granite. i like your suggestion about stain testing samples. brilliant. wood floor- i'm not sure if i agree with you on this one. hard wood floor dent when objects drop on it and my bf is one of the clumsiest people i know and i can already see all the dents in a beautiful hardwood floor if it were in my kitchen. plus, glass dropped on any surface will fracture. don't get me wrong, i love the look of hardwood floors, but i would think in a kitchen where spills and accidents are highly prone a ceramic tiled floor would be more durable. to the op: i'm sure you will get many great suggestions from chowhound, as you already have (i love the 2 drawer dishwasher rec, which is new to me), but another great source are the forums on gardenweb.com. my bf and i just renovated our second floor and we found this site very helpful. goodluck in your renovation. Mon Nov 07 20:10:33 -0800 2005 1492505 0 lotsanivanh 3 1492644 I have about 25 running feet of cabinets, plus I neglected to mention that I do have one floor-to-ceiling cabinet which contains all my everyday dishes and glasses. This set up works because of the pantry. In the food-storage part of the pantry I have 6 rows of 5-foot plastic-coated wire shelves that are 12 inches deep. This is one place where I do have a step stool on hand all the time, but I made very sure that what's on the top shelf is not something I will need more than once a year. We were pleased to find that a local custom cabinet maker was not much more expensive than good semi-custom cabinetry. This might have changed; wood prices have increased considerably since our remodel. I really like your idea of hanging the pans under the island; they won't get covered with oily residue as pans above the stove would and they're close at hand. Tue Nov 08 10:17:48 -0800 2005 1492567 0 jillp 4 1492790 "25 running feet of cabinets"... oh how i envy you. Tue Nov 08 18:53:17 -0800 2005 1492644 0 lotsanivanh 3 1492662 Second the recommendation for the Garden Web appliances forum--it's been invaluable to us! Do a search or post your own question. Here's a link to it. Link: http://ths.gardenweb.com/forums/appl/ Tue Nov 08 10:52:20 -0800 2005 1492567 0 Ms. Ghost 1 1492569 I know Jillp's kitchen well and yes she does not have any over the counter cabinets but you need to weigh whether you can give up that much cabinet space, I am only an inch or two taller. She has lots of room for art in the kitchen and has a built-in breakfront in the hall adjoining the kitchen but frankly I would not want to be bending over all the time to get out plates and glassware. Having cabinets and the sink next to the dishwasher makes perfect sense for easy clean up and putting things way. She also has a great walk in pantry with a window and lots of kitchen storage. I did my remodel a number of years ago and i did have custom cabinetry made. I designed a double galley kitchen. The 5 burner Monogram cooktop is in the island. The sink is opposite, the refrigerator is at the end of the counter which holds the sink. The oven,a full sized wall oven, I should have installed 2, is away from the cooking area, in it's own baking zone with adjacent counter top and cabinetry and drawers. I too prefer Formica counter tops. Solid surfce looks good but is less forgiving. Ever try to bounce a plate off of granite, marble or Corian? Hardwood floors for me. Actually I have a combo, my kitchen opens onto a screened porch and terrace. I also have 3 standard poodles that track every thing you can imagine in. At that end of the kitchen, dining area etc I have ceramic tile which is easier to clean up than the hard wood oak floor. Have fun with the remodel and play with your plans a bit. I hope you enjoy the finished project. Mon Nov 07 20:18:18 -0800 2005 1492444 0 Candy 2 1492595 i am envisioning your awesome kitchen in my head but am thinking you must not live in new york city, where most kitchens or anything for that matter are not so spacious. when i renovate my kitchen i plan to knock down the wall dividing the diningroom and kitchen to open up the space more, plus i think it's more fun for entertaining as somehow everyone congregates in the kitchen. i can't imagine not having over the counter cabinets. although my kitchen is not that small, i don't think i could justify wasting that precious space. but it sounds like both you and jillp have a great space for cooking, so whatever works for you. Mon Nov 07 22:55:04 -0800 2005 1492569 0 lotsanivanh 2 1492661 Wow, that is quite a kitchen. Not even sure if I'd ever use the baking area. I love to cook but I almost never bake. How is the Monogram cooktop holding up? Tue Nov 08 10:50:48 -0800 2005 1492569 0 sushisasha 3 1492667 It is 15 years old and going strong. But some of the enamel on the sealed burners is chipping off. It is the original model with the down draft vent which does not work too well so I resign myself to having to wash the cabinets etc. down twice a year. Tue Nov 08 11:27:30 -0800 2005 1492661 0 Candy 1 1492600 I think many overlook the need for a really good vent/hood. Doesn't need to be huge, just efficient. I also wish I had one of those neat faucets that come out of the wall behind the cooktop to fill pasta pots. Bob Tue Nov 08 00:07:26 -0800 2005 1492444 0 Sony Bob 1 1492646 After extolling the virtues of my kitchen I neglected to mention one thing I will change as soon as I can: my cheaper model GE dishwasher works perfectly but is very noisy. I yearn for a Bosch. Also, we went with a bottom freezer when we had to buy a new refrigerator and that has worked very well for us. My sister uses a lot of frozen food so she says she likes her freezer at eye level. Think about what sort of cooking you do. If it's mostly fresh food, you don't want to have to bend down to root through the crisper five times a day, but if you make a lot of things ahead and store them in the freezer, you'll want to opposite. Side-by-sides are often too narrow to hold big things in the freezer. Tue Nov 08 10:24:51 -0800 2005 1492444 0 jillp 2 1492660 Good points. I used to have your typical freezer on top which always seems ridulous to me; you run to the kitchen hungry but with no plan as to what to eat and the one thing at eye-level is ice cream. In my last place I bought a GE profile with the freezer on the bottom and (as much as it pains me to admit I am that lazy) having the refrigerator with it's generally healthier options at eye level changed my snacking behaviors. I was thinking of a model like the LG double door refigerator with the freezer at the bottom. That way I have flexibilty in terms of storing platters and still keep my frozen desserts semi-at bay. The side-by-side models are just too narrow for many items. Tue Nov 08 10:49:11 -0800 2005 1492646 0 sushisasha 1 1492732 Well, it has been 27 years since I built my kitchen, but I still love my stainless steel "Just" brand double bowl sink. The large sink (on the side away from the dishwasher) is big enough for roasting pans, cookie sheets, and a plastic dishpan. The smaller sink, with the disposal, next to the diswasher, is big enough to hold a 9x13 pyrex, dinner plates, etc. Most double bowl sinks have sinks that are too small to be useful. I replaced my faucet with a Price & Fister about 6 years ago. It is a mess, chrome peeling off, etc. No rec there. Our 2 yr. old Kitchen Aid dishwasher is incredibly quiet. All the extra cycles are pretty useless, so we got a middle of the pack model. We thought about a Fisher & Paykel, because we keep kosher. However, with a family of 4, the drawer capacity was too small: especially for when one has guests. One could buy a second dishwasher for the same price. Wish I had spent money on more drawers: especially deep ones. My Mom had pull-out trays in her cabinets, they were great. Lighting: I have florescents under the wall cabinets. I would be working in my shadow without them. Wall cabinets: we hung them a few inches lower than normal because I am 5'2". Now that I have children, it is easier for them to reach things. I have trouble only with the top shelf. Opening up: I have a semi-island built around a small piece (contains a heating duct) of what was left of the wall that was between the kitchen and dining room (1896 era home). I love the openness and the light, and never feeling "stuck alone" in the kitchen. I was single when I did the building, and I still love it. But you have to be informal and relaxed when entertaining. The island is built of base cabinets with a single formica countertop, and is half in the kitchen and half in the dining room. Excellent for buffet serving. Actually, a favorite feature on the island is a low area made of a matching bathroom base cabinet with a real marble top for baking. The downside is that the cabinet is not optimal for storage. No shelves, etc. The doors are too narrow to accept standard pull-out trays, etc. I put in a doubled tiered wire basket rack on one side. Formica: my countertop is just showing marks the last 5 years: mostly from spouse and kids who don't reach for a cutting board, I suspect. Floor: quarry tile, unglazed. Slippery when wet. Looked good for 20 years, some tiles now cracked and need replacing. I would probably choose something else. Hope this helps. Tue Nov 08 14:54:47 -0800 2005 1492444 0 p.j. 1 1492733 Well, it has been 27 years since I built my kitchen, but I still love my stainless steel "Just" brand double bowl sink. The large sink (on the side away from the dishwasher) is big enough for roasting pans, cookie sheets, and a plastic dishpan. The smaller sink, with the disposal, next to the diswasher, is big enough to hold a 9x13 pyrex, dinner plates, etc. Most double bowl sinks have sinks that are too small to be useful. I replaced my faucet with a Price & Fister about 6 years ago. It is a mess, chrome peeling off, etc. No rec there. Our 2 yr. old Kitchen Aid dishwasher is incredibly quiet. All the extra cycles are pretty useless, so we got a middle of the pack model. We thought about a Fisher & Paykel, because we keep kosher. However, with a family of 4, the drawer capacity was too small: especially for when one has guests. One could buy a second dishwasher for the same price. Wish I had spent money on more drawers: especially deep ones. My Mom had pull-out trays in her cabinets, they were great. Lighting: I have florescents under the wall cabinets. I would be working in my shadow without them. Wall cabinets: we hung them a few inches lower than normal because I am 5'2". Now that I have children, it is easier for them to reach things. I have trouble only with the top shelf. Opening up: I have a semi-island built around a small piece (contains a heating duct) of what was left of the wall that was between the kitchen and dining room (1896 era home). I love the openness and the light, and never feeling "stuck alone" in the kitchen. I was single when I did the building, and I still love it. But you have to be informal and relaxed when entertaining. The island is built of base cabinets with a single formica countertop, and is half in the kitchen and half in the dining room. Excellent for buffet serving. Actually, a favorite feature on the island is a low area made of a matching bathroom base cabinet with a real marble top for baking. The downside is that the cabinet is not optimal for storage. No shelves, etc. The doors are too narrow to accept standard pull-out trays, etc. I put in a doubled tiered wire basket rack on one side. Formica: my countertop is just showing marks the last 5 years: mostly from spouse and kids who don't reach for a cutting board, I suspect. Floor: quarry tile, unglazed. Slippery when wet. Looked good for 20 years, some tiles now cracked and need replacing. I would probably choose something else. Hope this helps. Tue Nov 08 14:54:48 -0800 2005 1492444 0 p.j.