278842 Tue Jul 19 16:43:26 -0700 2005 8 31 Home Cooking 0 1477126 The process: I made a loaf from Nigel Slater's recipe for a simple crusty white loaf - 8 C. bread flour 3 tsp salt 2 pkgs rapid rise yeast 3 C. flour Kneaded for ten minutes, Let it rise one hour, kneaded a couple of minutes and let rise again (had to cut short and let it rise for 30 minutes). ten minutes at 500, then 25 at 400 degrees. Put on a circulon pan since I didn't have a cookie sheet. The results: 1. Huge loaf, i forgot to roll out the seams. Hmm, but also it was denser than I like, why does that happen? was it the shorter rise time in the second round or should it be a stickier dough? 2. Would like more of a crust too -- does the spray bottle trick work well or would a pan of water work better? Should I get a pizza stone to cook on, or would a cookie sheet work alright? 3. Any suggestions on interesting variations I could try with this recipe? The loaf was too big, so I will cut everything in half for the next round. Thanks in advance! Tue Jul 19 16:43:26 -0700 2005 0 obermeier 1 1477129 Geez, that's a lot of dough. I think that you should reduce the amount you're working with until you get a feel for things...say 3 c flour bread flour to 1 pkg yeast for starters. Putting a small pan of water or spritzing the inside of the oven will yield a thicker crust, but cooking on a pizza stone or quarry tile will also help. Good luck, and keep trying... Tue Jul 19 16:46:32 -0700 2005 1477126 0 Hungry Celeste 1 1477143 1. Huge loaf, i forgot to roll out the seams. Hmm, but also it was denser than I like, why does that happen? was it the shorter rise time in the second round or should it be a stickier dough? 11 c. of flour?! No wonder it was huge! For a 1.5 loaf, I typically use 3 c. of flour and 2-3 tsp. yeast. You should try a good recipe w/ less dough and make sure you allow adequate time to rise. You can't take shortcuts w/ bread. The rising time also allows the flavors to develop. 2. Would like more of a crust too -- does the spray bottle trick work well or would a pan of water work better? Should I get a pizza stone to cook on, or would a cookie sheet work alright? The water bath thing never worked for me, so I used the spray bottle during the first 10 min. of baking. After the loaf has been in for a few min., spray either the sides or the bottom of the oven and keep the door as closed as possible. Only do this a few times, as you don't want too much heat to escape. A pizza stone would be good to bake on. 3. Any suggestions on interesting variations I could try with this recipe? The loaf was too big, so I will cut everything in half for the next round. Find a different recipe instead of cutting everything in half. It might work, but baking is so finnicky that I prefer to find a precise recipe. One of my favorite types of bread during the summer months was buttermilk herb. Great for tomato sandwiches, BLTs, etc. Tue Jul 19 18:59:05 -0700 2005 1477126 0 Carb Lover 1 1477149 Some suggestions for you, until you get the "feel" for bread: 1. Don't measure by volume, measure by weight. It really does make a difference. 2. Find a bread book that you love. I personally love Rose Levy Beranbaum's _The_Bread_Bible_ but some people may find it too anal-retentive to be usable. (I've never had a bad loaf out of her book.) Eleven cups of flour (about 1500 grams) is a RIDICULOUS amount of flour, you should be using about a third of that for a normal-sized loaf of bread. 3. Get a pizza stone, or better yet, an unglazed quarry tile ($2.00 at Home Depot). Bake the bread on that. Also heat an empty old jelly-roll pan on the floor of the oven (or the lowest shelf if you've an electric oven). When you put the bread on the pizza stone, toss a tray's worth of ice cubes into the hot jelly-roll pan and slam the oven door shut. 4. Don't fudge the rising times. If it's cold out it will take longer to rise, the guidelines in the book are merely averages. Tue Jul 19 19:31:48 -0700 2005 1477126 0 Das Ubergeek 1 1477175 I'm with everyone else on the quantity. Cut it back. I also agree with buying a good bread book and work off that. However I disagree with thechoice of The Brad Bible. My preference would be either The Brad baker's Apprentice or Breads of the La Brea bakery.. Learn how to use less yeast and retard the dough. This means using only 1/2 teaspoon yeast, 4 cups of flour, 1 1/2 water (or so) adn 2 teaspoon salt. Mix until you get a windowpane (can strecth the dough very thin until you can see light coming through without breaking the dough). Then place ina bowl, cover and refrigerate overnight. this will allow time for the bacteria to develop flavor (bread is a colony of yeast and bacteria). Good luck and remember that baking bread means slowing down. Wed Jul 20 03:00:56 -0700 2005 1477126 0 Food Tyrant 2 1477260 I like anal-retentive recipes, that's why I like _The_Bread_Bible_. That said, there are other books too. :-P One thing the OP may want to consider is making a starter for the bread (called, depending on its contents, a starter, a biga, a poolish, a chef, a levain, or a mother)... basically you take a small amount of the water and yeast and flour (no salt!) and mix them together and let them rise first. You can do it overnight (or even two nights) in the refrigerator. Then you mix the remaining ingredients with the starter (biga, et al.) and let it rise. Food Tyrant is right -- the slower the rise, the tangier the bread. If you use a starter (et al.) you will notice your bread is much tangier and it will also rise more quickly. That's not to say it will rise quickly -- bread baking is an all-day thing, it's not a quick two-hour "maybe I'll make a loaf of bread this afternoon" thing. You can make quick breads but they taste, well, like quick breads. I do have a question for the OP -- did you slash your loaf before baking? If you don't slash the loaf, the accumulated steam from the oven spring (those first few minutes at high heat where the water in the dough boils) has noplace to go and can result in a dense, unappetisingly chewy loaf. Wed Jul 20 15:41:02 -0700 2005 1477175 0 Das Ubergeek 3 1477288 i didn't slash the loaf, so that may help. thanks! mainly i like my bread with a lot of large holes in it, swiss cheese effect or something. so i'll try that suggestion as well. thanks! will the tangier quality you mention translate to a sourdough taste or a yeastier taste? thanks in advance Wed Jul 20 19:24:30 -0700 2005 1477260 0 obermeier 3 1477436 For the starter, use water, flour and sugar. Commercial yeast are so virulent that they will take over your starter and your bread will still taste like store bought yeast. The flour has plenty of little buggy things to get the starter going. You do need to keep feeding it a few time a day with more flour, sugar and water. Thu Jul 21 20:51:33 -0700 2005 1477260 0 Just Larry 1 1477218 Ooops! I think you used 8 C flour and 3 C water? That would be good for 2 large loaves. If you only made one loaf and cut the proof time short, that may account for dense. I notice you don't list sugar. That feeds the yeast. I think maybe you didn't have such a good recipe. But bread making is not about the recipe; its about practice and feel. Making good bread is not a once every six months deal; its every week. (That wasn't meant as a slam, just as an observation.) Get a standard recipe of flour, water, salt, sugar, and yeast and work with it frequently. Use a stone. Sprinkle corn meal on it. After a couple of months, people will be hanging out in your kitchen on bread baking day just in case there's an extra loaf! Wed Jul 20 12:55:29 -0700 2005 1477126 0 yayadave