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Authentic Italian Gravy

w
Weiszguy Mar 7, 2005 11:46 AM

My next door neighbor is a 70-something Italian lady with an accent so thick that most of the time I have no idea what she is saying. Periodically she brings us a bowl of "gravy" - the most delicious tomato sauce I have ever had (with meatballs and sausage in it). Short of standing over her while she makes it (and I'm not sure she'd go for that), I'm at a loss as how to replicate it. I know how to make the kind of homemade sauce my mom always made - but this stuff is much more flavorful and subtle. Can anyone help?

  1. m
    Mrs. Smith Mar 7, 2005 12:31 PM

    Having tried, for years, to make a good "gravy" or fine fine tomato-meat sauce like this Italian granny can do, I can tell you you have to go to the source for it.

    There was, long ago, a fantastic Italian restaurant my family used to frequent. The owner/chef, made the finest, smoothest, most flavorful sauce I've ever tasted, before or since. He wouldn't share exactly what it was, but there were a couple of surprising things in it that he did tell us about.

    The sauce was simmered, for a long long time, with lots of chicken backs. A good bony cut of meat, whether it's beef, or chicken, or even pork, will impart a great amount of flavor, if cooked properly over a long period of time.

    White pepper was another secret ingredient.

    If the sauce was served with a meat (a meatball, sausage, etc), the meat that went with it was not cooked with the sauce until 20-30 minutes before serving. The meat that was long simmered in the sauce was removed and discarded.

    If you're wondering, I've never even been close at replicating the original. I don't have the Italian granny/grandpa/chef to tell me how, and I guess I don't have the genes for it, either! I never got the recipe (it was proprietary, which I understand), and sadly the chef has passed away. My advice to you is to flatter this fine Italian lady as much as possible, and ask her if, sometime (when she chooses) you may watch her make it and take notes. She may well say no, so be prepared. This chef/owner was a longtime close friend of our family, and he never shared his secret, so you may not get hers. :) Good luck to you.

    20 Replies
    1. re: Mrs. Smith
      4
      4chowpups Mar 7, 2005 01:11 PM

      Are you asking for a recipe? I am from upstate N.Y. where practically everyone's sauce tastes similar and my sauce comes from my ex's grandmother with my own subtle variations of course. I don't use any garlic and the onion is taken out after being sauteed in olive oil. The majority of flavor comes from the tomatoes and the meat, a high quality superior sausage is a must. I have searched all over the N. Shore of Boston where I now live and have finally found two sources of great sausage. Adding pork bones or a rib or two also adds a great flavor and of course so do meatballs however I tend to put in only a few as they absorb a lot of the sauce and you won't have such a great pot! I get rave reviews about my sauce, I think because it is very very traditional. (My own grandmother 100% Sicilian, never even put garlic or onion or any spices in her sauce, just the flavor of the meat and freshly grated cheese over homemade macaroni and her stuff would make you swoon!)

      1. re: 4chowpups
        m
        mg Mar 7, 2005 01:24 PM

        I agree that the best way to replicate the sauce would be to watch and take notes. Italian mammas can never tell you how they make something - it's always "a bit of this, a bit of that"! EVERYONE has their own way of making tomato sauce and no two people will make it the same way. Every single one of my aunts' sauces taste different which is interesting when you consider they were raised by one person who taught them. My sister and I also make our sauce the exact same way but there is always a subtle difference in the taste. Good luck!

        1. re: 4chowpups
          w
          Weiszguy Mar 7, 2005 01:39 PM

          Would love a recipe. I know I'm going to have to fiddle with it to get it to my taste - but the recipes I have started with have been way off the mark.

          We're in Somerville, so I would also be interested in your sausage supplier, if you're inclined to share the info?

          1. re: Weiszguy
            4
            4chowpups Mar 7, 2005 05:34 PM

            Hi. I posted the supplier which I think is now on the Boston board however I would think there would be great sausage in/around Boston?? I would be happy to share my recipe,just email me directly. FYI my meatballs have raisins (1 per meatball) in them (optional, it's a regional thing, my grandmother put pignolia nuts and raisins in hers, my exs grandmother, just raisins!).

          2. re: 4chowpups
            c
            Chris VR Mar 7, 2005 02:23 PM

            4chowpups, please follow the link below to the Boston board, I'd love to know where you get your sausage!

            Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/...

          3. re: Mrs. Smith
            j
            joonjoon Nov 1, 2010 06:14 PM

            I know this thread is old - but I just made some delicious sunday gravy yesterday so I thought I'd chip in.

            Disclaimer: I am neither Italian or a grandma...actually I'm an asian dude, so you should probably take my method with a grain of salt.

            For me the key to a great Sunday gravy is in the selection of meats. I want a combination of ground and whole pork and beef products in my gravy., along with some bones. I don't have a set recipe but I use one or more of the following:

            Pork neck bones
            Pork ribs
            Hot/Sweet sausage
            Some form of stew beef
            Meatballs
            Braciola (I usually omit because it's the hardest ingredient to prep)

            Yesterday I used the following combination of meats:
            Spicy Italian Sausage
            Baby back ribs cut into single pieces
            Meatball: (beef+pork), parmesan, pecorino, basil, crushed red peppers, finely chopped salami, panade, garlic, stuffed with a cube of mozz
            1 lb piece of brisket

            A rough recipe goes like this:

            1. Brown the meats. I try to get as much deep browning on the meats as possible. The browning is more for flavor development of the sauce than the meat itself (the 'brown' bits will sort of wash off the meat during the simmering) So I brown the meats as much as possible until I feel the fond on the pan is dark enough.

            2. Throw in a couple diced onions and pick up the fond. Saute for a few minutes.

            3. Throw in as much chopped garlic as you'd like (half a head or so for me), some tomato paste, oregano, and crushed red pepper. Cook until tomato paste is dark brown and fond develops on the bottom of the pan again.

            4. Deglaze with some combination of water, beef stock, chicken stock, red wine. Yesterday I went with red wine and beef stock.

            5. Add a bunch of canned tomato (I'm not too picky on the type - yesterday I went with 1 can of crushed and 1 whole), and throw in a big sprig of basil and some bay leaves. I leave the basil whole and fish out the whole stem later.

            6. Check for seasoning, return all meats (except meatball - I usually start making the meatballs after this step) to the pot, and throw the whole thing into a 300 degree oven.

            7. Make meatballs and brown in pan. After the gravy has simmered in the oven for 2+ hours, add meatballs to the pot and let simmer another 30 minutes.

            8. Take out all the meat from the pot. Set aside all meats on a separate tray and skim the fat. There will be a LOT. After skimming, take the stew beef (brisket in this case) and shred the meat using a fork and return the shredded beef to the sauce, along with some fresh chopped basil.

            That's about it! I throw in a scoop of the sauce into the pasta to keep it from sticking and then it's ready to serve. I prefer to serve my sunday gravy build-your-own family style - a pot of pasta, a plate of meats, and a pot of sauce. And maybe some garlic bread. Everyone can go with their preferred meat combo. Not only is sunday gravy delicious, it's really economical also! I think I spent 50$ on everything - we fed nearly 10 people and I still have enough left over to make a whole nother batch!

            1. re: joonjoon
              g
              Gamarra Nov 2, 2010 10:22 AM

              I eat JoonJoon's gravy everytime he makes it and I LOVE IT! This particular recipe he detailed above was especially delicious! I ate till I popped! "Gui!!"

              1. re: joonjoon
                c
                ChiliDude Aug 29, 2011 08:19 AM

                Interesting! My concept of pasta sauce is that it also contains a soffritto. Soffritto of onion, celery, carrot for sweetness to temper the acid of the tomato product, garlic and green bell pepper. My wife is the one with the Italian genes, she calls it 'gravy' because of the meat and sausage that is added to the sauce. I MIEI ANTENATI NON ERANO ITALIANI (my ancestors were not Italian, that's my disclaimer), so after 51+ years of marriage, I still torture my wife by calling 'SAUCE.' Did I miss something when I read your recipe?

                Buon appetito! Vivi, ama, ridi e mangia bene (LIve, love, laugh and eat well)!

                1. re: ChiliDude
                  j
                  joonjoon Aug 29, 2011 09:10 AM

                  Hey Chilidude, carrots and celery are always welcome in a pot of anything in my book!

                  As I mentioned, this is just a rough method and not really a recipe. I tried to highlight the things that are absolutely necessary for gravy but if there's anything else you want in there, well that's what makes cooking fun. I think I'll try adding some celery and carrots next time I make my Sunday gravy!

                2. re: joonjoon
                  s
                  scunge Aug 29, 2011 11:31 AM

                  joonjoon you're good ....I'm a Sicilian American and it sounds real good to me .I am amused at the term authentic and Italian Grandma's .Growing up in an Italian neighborhood in the 1950's the old ladies would argue what should not be put in a dish ,a sauce ,sugo,ragu etc Raisins ?????no never or of course raisins ,cheese in the sauce never what are you ubotza (crazy) ?.They were so serious so passionate .Now when I offer my opinion advising that for an authentic touch add pig skin or fresh pork necks. I hear ewww !!!! what are you crazy???

                  1. re: scunge
                    j
                    joonjoon Aug 29, 2011 01:06 PM

                    Thanks scunge! I take compliments on red sauce coming from an actual Italian. :) I've never had the pleasure of being around a serious Italian family but I imagine their conversations about "gravy" being a lot like how Korean moms are with their Kimchi preparation - and of course your mom/grandma's is always the best!

                    Pig skin! That's one I never heard before...but you know what, I bet adding some "undesirable" cuts like skin, foot, or even tripe would make for a delicious gravy! I have some beef cheek in my freezer that I may add to my next batch.

                    1. re: joonjoon
                      s
                      scunge Aug 29, 2011 03:16 PM

                      The undesirable cuts.are for many old timers the desirable and much wanted items by those who moved away from those neighborhoods they grew up in .A friend of mine who move to a rural upstate N.Y area would ask me to bring him the pork skin and salumi made with out @#@#$%& High Fructose Corn Syrup. Tripe cooked in a red peppered laced red sauce with potato ,onion and peas served with crusty or day old bread. It was glorious PEASANT FARE before high cholesterol , PRIME CUTS ,TV cooks etc

                    2. re: scunge
                      c
                      ChiliDude Aug 29, 2011 02:03 PM

                      I have to say that the Sicilian dialectic word for crazy is a new one for me. Never heard that one before. I've been told that i Siciliani have a dialect that mainlanders cannot understand. There are two words in 'standard' Italian for crazy that I know...pazzo e matto.

                      1. re: scunge
                        o
                        ospreycove Oct 8, 2011 03:26 AM

                        +1 on the pork skin and neck bones while the sauce is cooking down!!!!

                      2. re: joonjoon
                        c
                        carbonaraboy Aug 29, 2011 12:12 PM

                        Excellent! Shredded brisket is brilliant.

                        Don't forget to fry some tomato paste in a little of the grease left in the meatball pan, then deglaze and add to the sauce.

                        1. re: carbonaraboy
                          j
                          joonjoon Aug 29, 2011 01:15 PM

                          Thanks carbonaraboy, that was the first time I used brisket in gravy and I gotta say, it just took the sauce to another level. Like meat sauce but WAY better.

                          1. re: carbonaraboy
                            coll Aug 30, 2011 04:10 AM

                            Think I'll sub brisket for braciole next time around, sounds tasty. Bones are key, I prefer lamb or veal shanks if I can find. Whenever I spot some, I buy them and freeze for the future, you only need one at a time. In addtion I've been throwing in 3 or 4 country ribs. Neck bones fall apart on me and someone always gets a little shard in their dish, to my embarrassment.

                            1. re: coll
                              c
                              carbonaraboy Aug 30, 2011 09:28 AM

                              Yes, beef and pork neck bones will splinter a bit. If using them, braise separately in wine and stock (after browning). Then sift. shred, and add.

                              I like the beef/pork rib route best, but neck bones can be had much more cheaply. Beef shank is also excellent, and pork shank if you can find it.

                          2. re: joonjoon
                            z
                            zamorski Oct 8, 2011 04:14 PM

                            I agree with joonjoon that browning the meats well is what gives the gravy its "je ne sais quoi." I also "deglaze" the meatball pan with a little stock and toss it into the sauce with the meatballs. Coating the meatballs with flour aids with browning, so I sometimes do that, too.

                            1. re: zamorski
                              n
                              Nanzi Jun 28, 2012 08:34 AM

                              I love flour coated browned meatballs, and I don't enjoy the meatballs half as much if they are uncoated. When my grown with her own kids daughter saw me do it, she said I'd been holding out on her. If she'd asked I'd have told here in a heartbeat!!. I don't know where I picked up that habit, might have been from out neighbors in NJ - the Yulos, Sapagnolos, Falangos, Pomaros.....whaddya think?

                        2. n
                          Nancy Berry Mar 7, 2005 01:25 PM

                          This recipe is paraphrased from one that was published in the Washington Post in 2002:

                          Sunday Gravy with Meatballs

                          FOR THE SAUCE:
                          2 tablespoons olive oil
                          1 pound meaty pork neck bones or spareribs
                          1 pound veal stew meat or 2 veal shoulder chops
                          1 pound Italian plain or fennel pork sausages
                          4 garlic cloves, peeled
                          1/4 cup tomato paste
                          3 cans Italian peeled tomatoes (35-ounce ea)
                          Salt and freshly ground black pepper, to taste
                          6 fresh basil leaves, torn into small pieces
                          FOR THE MEATBALLS:
                          1 pound ground beef or a combination of beef and pork
                          1/2 cup plain dried bread crumbs
                          2 large eggs
                          1 teaspoon very finely minced garlic
                          1/2 cup freshly grated Pecorino Romano or Parmigiano-Reggiano cheese (about 2 ounces)
                          2 tablespoons finely chopped fresh flat-leaf (Italian) parsley
                          Salt and freshly ground black pepper, to taste
                          2 tablespoons olive oil, plus additional for the pan

                          For the sauce: Heat the oil in a large deep pot, a Le Creuset French oven is great for this, pat the pork dry and brown it on all sides over medium heat -- about 15 minutes. Remove the pork from the pot and reserve.

                          Brown the veal in the same way, remove it from the pot and reserve.

                          Place the sausages in the pot and brown on all sides. Remove and reserve.

                          Drain almost all of the fat from the pot. Turn the heat down to medium-low, add the garlic and cook about two minutes or until light brown (be careful not to burn or the gravy will be bitter.) Remove the garlic from the pan. Add the tomato paste and cook, stirring, for one minute.

                          Add the tomatoes (including juice) to the pot and add salt and pepper, to taste. If you want a smoother sauce puree the tomatoes with the juice with a food mill before you add them to the sauce.

                          Add the reserved meats to the pot. Add the basil, turn the heat up to medium-high and bring the sauce to a simmer. Partially cover the pot and simmer, stirring occasionally, for two hours. If the sauce thickens too much, add a little water.

                          While the sauce is cooking, make the meatballs.

                          For the meatballs: Using your hands, mix the ground beef, bread crumbs, eggs, garlic, cheese, parsley, salt and pepper in a large bowl. Rinse your hands with cold water and lightly roll this mixture into little balls (about the size of small grapes.) This makes about 144 tiny meatballs. You may make them larger if you wish.

                          In a large, heavy skillet over medium-high heat, heat the oil. Add the meatballs and cook, turning as necessary, until browned on all sides but not cooked through. (Don't crowd the skillet; you may have to cook these in batches.) Add additional oil, if necessary, to keep the meatballs from sticking. Transfer the meatballs to a plate; they will finish cooking later.

                          After the sauce has simmered for 2 hours, add the meatballs to the sauce and cook, stirring occasionally, until the sauce thickens, the meatballs are cooked through and the larger meats are tender, about 30 minutes.

                          To use in Baked Ziti, remove the meats from the sauce with a slotted spoon. Use the meatballs for the Baked Ziti. Reserve the pork, veal and sausage for a second course or for another meal or dice and add to the Sunday Gravy that remains and reserve both for another meal or just serve all the meats, including the meatballs, with this wonderful gravy.

                          8 cups

                          Paraphrased from: 2002-09-04 "Italian Recipes for the Family That Eats Together"
                          Washington Post 2002

                          1. k
                            kc girl Mar 7, 2005 03:18 PM

                            Maybe her secret is to let it simmer for a long time? Tell her the truth. You want it. Ask her how you can get her sauce for the rest of your life and hold our your arms to offer her a big hug. See if she goes for it. Say "deliciouso" and then "Squisiti" and "Siete salsa siete molto squisiti." And, then maybe "Modo mio." Maybe she'll tell/show you. If she doesn't offer, just enjoy it while you can. Translation at http://world.altavista.com/

                            Short of that, maybe take her something you make or bake or love. Maybe a jar of really yummy commercial jam?

                            Anyway, about a "gravy" - I have found that the simmer time is easier these days in a crock pot and using short ribs brings in much flavor, but I doubt that's what she is doing. Does she use a pressure cooker? Maybe most of the flavor comes from her sausage? Do you know where she gets it? That's probably in the "gravy" the longest and the meatballs stirred in later. And, does she use fresh herbs from her garden? Who does she go grocery shopping with - does she drive herself and can you offer to do that?

                            1. s
                              SandraV Mar 7, 2005 05:27 PM

                              About 3 or so years ago, The NYT published a sunday gravy recipe from a NY City firehouse cook named John Sineno. It contains meatballs but also hot and sweet sausage and spare ribs.

                              Exceedingly tasty. Unfortunately, I'm not up to posting a non-verbatim version but I can send it to you if you like.

                              2 Replies
                              1. re: SandraV
                                k
                                kesia Jul 31, 2010 09:11 AM

                                Sandra, Could you please send me the recipe you speak about?? Mouth is watering...Thanks, Dave

                                1. re: kesia
                                  b
                                  Bryan Pepperseed Aug 2, 2010 06:08 AM

                                  This is probably the article Sandra wrote about (recipe is on the last page of the article) -

                                  http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/13/din...

                              2. t
                                tricky Mar 8, 2005 03:14 PM

                                the plan: bake something delicious, put it in nice packaging, include the recipe (it must be something delicious or this plan will surely backfire). Happy Easter, signora! keep in mind there is said to be almost no society as tit for tat as italy and go home and cross your fingers.

                                the back up plan: buy the Rao's cookbook, or Lidia Bastianich's italian american cookbook on Amazon.

                                1. Hank Hanover Aug 2, 2010 07:17 AM

                                  I have never tried it but it is on my to do list. Cook's Illustrated has a recipe for "sunday gravy" and it sounds great. It calls for baby back ribs, italian sausage and meatballs.

                                  2 Replies
                                  1. re: Hank Hanover
                                    roxlet Aug 2, 2010 07:25 AM

                                    We use a couple of pork chops or pork "sauce meat" in lieu of the baby backs, which I think are a bit too fatty.

                                    1. re: roxlet
                                      o
                                      ospreycove Aug 2, 2010 07:33 AM

                                      Ahhh,.........."Sunday Gravy", all I know is that the best I've had, (The Nonna next door), used veal bones,meaty pork neck bones, sweet sausage roasted in the oven first, then proudly simmered from late morning, after church, until dinner time, about 5 hours later. Molto saporito!!!

                                  2. grampart Aug 2, 2010 07:36 AM

                                    I think this recipe from Rao's will more than satisfy. I think either the meatballs or Braciola should be mandatory. Be sure to brown your meats well and take advantage of the fond.
                                    http://therecipereader.com/sunday-gra...

                                    1. m
                                      mangetoutoc Aug 3, 2010 01:10 AM

                                      Ditto most of the other posters about the key being a mix of good meats, especially some on the bone. The best red sauce I ever made involved a braciole-like thing of pounded beef rolled up with good pepperoni, fire-roasted red peppers, spiced-up cheese, and roasted garlic slow cooked in tomatoes and red wine with some chops I browned at the start cooking on the mix. That sucker, a main dish for a season premiere Sopranos party, simmered for hours until it was a beautiful, smooth pot full of foodgasm.

                                      1. m
                                        mtomto Nov 2, 2010 11:49 AM

                                        Just keepin the Gravy thread alive!!! Always love to see it!! I always look forward to learning about an Itlaian G'Mas recipe or style to pick up a special method Im not already using.

                                        1. t
                                          thimes Aug 29, 2011 05:35 AM

                                          First - ask her to let you watch her make it - or help her make it - but then you can NEVER make it for yourself until you move, you're on vacation, or she passes on. If she smells you making it or knows you are making it for yourself after she has been making it for you for all that time . . . . let's just say that is VERY VERY BAD.

                                          That said - I am not a huge fan of the Food Network but this recipe comes from Vita Greco and was aired way back when the channel was good . . .

                                          http://www.foodnetwork.com/recipes/co...

                                          It won the Star Ledger "Gravy" contest years ago (in NJ - so it is pretty authentic from an immigrant population standpoint). I love this recipe and make it often.

                                          2 Replies
                                          1. re: thimes
                                            c
                                            ChiliDude Aug 29, 2011 08:21 AM

                                            You and I are little late with our postings, but who cares?

                                            1. re: ChiliDude
                                              t
                                              thimes Aug 30, 2011 04:57 AM

                                              only about 6 years late . . . . hahahaha

                                          2. a
                                            anthonyssauce Oct 6, 2011 09:49 AM

                                            I grew up in an Italian-American household and spent a LOT of time at my Italian grandmothers house. Sunday was the big day for the gravy with all the meats! Grandma would be in the kitchen all day, we would have a feast and then take naps. Good times! I've spent a long time. Many years getting my sauce to come out like my grandmothers did. There are many very important steps along the way that you can't miss! I have to throw my recipe into the mix here.

                                            http://www.spaghettisauceandmeatballs... This is my labor of love and my effort to keep my Italian family's recipes and traditions going on into the next generations. One very important tip is you must brown the meatballs in salt pork grease prior to putting them in the sauce. That is a very important grandma tip! Happy cooking, happy times and share the love! Ciao, Anthony

                                            1. e
                                              ediecooks Oct 8, 2011 06:23 PM

                                              I haven't read the replies yet, but here is how we do it in my italian family.

                                              you will need meat!
                                              sausage (hot and/or sweet, whatever you prefer)
                                              meatballs (ground beef, breadcrumbs, water, eggs, i do add grated parm to mine but my mom doesn't, and we all use progresso italian seasoned bread crumbs)
                                              braciole
                                              any other random meat, fatty and with a bone is best...you can use a steak, some pork ribs or beef ribs, all work well. not chicken or any white meat.

                                              heat olive oil in the bottom of a big pot, and brown the meats, a few at a time, not crowding them. as they are browned, put them on a plate to the side.

                                              in the same oil/drippings, brown chopped onion and garlic but don't burn them!

                                              add in tomatos....canned plum tomatoes, from italy!!!!! not pureed or chopped or anthing else. as you tip the can into the pot, stick your (clean!) hand into the can and squeeze the tomatoes to break them up. I usually use two big cans.

                                              stir it all up, stir in one little can of tomato paste, add the meat and any drippings that fell onto the plate back in. bring to quick boil then simmer it for as long as you can.

                                              we DO serve the meat that's in the sauce. the meatballs usually fall apart a bit. if you wnat some whole, then you shoudl bake those and add in at the end of cooking.

                                              long simmer, low and slow, gives you a rich, dark sauce. i make a pretty mean gravy but man my mom has the touch and hers is INSANE

                                              1. EM23 Oct 8, 2011 08:16 PM

                                                Tomorrow is Sunday and guess what they cooked on ATK today - Sunday Gravy!

                                                I scribbled down the recipes as they cooked them. I missed a couple of the amounts required but I caught most of the recipe. Excuse the lousy shorthand.

                                                Sunday Gravy

                                                Baby Back Ribs - 2 -2 1/4 lbs., pat dry and cut in 2 rib pieces, season w/ s& p
                                                1 lb. hot Italian sausage

                                                Heat 2 tbsp. olive oil in dutch oven to just smoking - brown ribs in batches til well browned 5-7 minutes, remove to plate
                                                Add sausage and brown 5 - 7 minutes, remove
                                                Add 2 fine chopped med onions, 1 1/4 tsps. dried oregano - cook 5 min
                                                Add 3 tbsps. tomato paste, stir/cook til dark w/out burning (a few mins?)
                                                Add 4 cloves garlic/minced, cook 30 seconds (just til fragrant - don't burn)
                                                Add 2 28 oz. cans crushed tomatoes
                                                Add 2/3 cup of beef broth

                                                Add meats back to pot w/ juices, bring to simmer, put in a pre-heat 325 degree oven, w/lid, for 2 1/2 hours

                                                In the meantime make meatballs....

                                                Make panade with 2 slices of hearty white bread (crusts removed), 1/2 cup buttermilk, 1 egg yolk, 1/2 tsp. salt, 1/4 tsp red pepper flakes, parsley(amt.?) - mash w/ fork til well mixed

                                                Add 1 lb. meatloaf mix (beef, pork, veal), 2/3 oz./ cup prosciutto (?not sure on the amount here but the more the better I bet), romano cheese ( missed this amount too)
                                                Makes 12- 14 meatballs, chill for 1 hour in the fridge b4 cooking
                                                Fry balls in olive oil til evenly brown - 5 min -blot on paper towel

                                                After 2 1/2 hrs remove sauce from oven, skim off fat, add meatballs (nestle into sauce) and return to oven for 15 min

                                                Serve components seperately:
                                                Place all meats on a platter
                                                Dress 1 1/2 lbs. of cooked spaghetti w/ 1 cup. sauce, place in a bowl
                                                Place extra sauce in another bowl
                                                Serve pasta on plate w/some of each meat and add xtra sauce as desired.

                                                1. b
                                                  BoneMan214 Nov 15, 2011 03:52 PM

                                                  Hi guys, I just registered to post to this thread. It really needs to be kept going because it contains some very important principles.

                                                  I am no expert, but I have been researching French sauces, and there is an important chemical reaction between meat, especially meat marrow, and tomatoes. This reaction results in a taste that is critical to all cuisine. The taste is called "umami", and it is the same taste that people experience when they taste MSG. Humans crave it, and when they taste it they have a visceral, emotional reaction. I am convinced that this taste is a critical component of Italian gravy.

                                                  I am still experimenting and learning, but like I said, Italian gravy has a taste that is irresistible to people. Everyone who loves cooking should experiment with these recipies and the reaction between braised and roasted meats and tomatoes. There is something profound and fundamental about these recipies that affects people emotionally. All of us cooks should experiment with these.

                                                  1. TorontoTips Jun 26, 2012 09:15 AM

                                                    Just bumping this thread alive since it has some great tips and heritage recipes... and adding my 2 cents, of course :-)

                                                    James' 2 KEYS for a good 'gravy':

                                                    Key#1 - Beef, pork, veal and ideally lamb, too, all browned well before adding to sauce. (you can do this in a large saute pan or in a roasting pan in the oven, make sure you deglaze the saute pan or roaster to collect the caramelized flavours for the sauce.

                                                    I usually go with beef short ribs or beef soup bones plus lamb bones for stew, and pork shoulder chops or pork side ribs, cut by the butcher into two strips, then split into single ribs before browning.
                                                    Meat on the bone, browned & deglazed is KEY #1!

                                                    I also use some italian fennel sausage plus ground beef or veal in the sauce, but I love the brisket idea, going to try that, the shredded texture would be great. If you have lots of fatty ribs or pork, you can skip the sausage, but add a tsp.or two of fennel seed to the sauce, its great.

                                                    Key #2 is using real, high-quality italian san marzano tomatoes. Yes, I know they are 3-4 times the price of the store brands, but buy them anyways. Seriously, it makes a HUGE difference. If you're stubborn and don't believe me, next time you make sauce buy just ONE can of good italian san marzanos and then taste your tomatoes and taste mine before you add them - you will never go back. :-)

                                                    That's it, make sure you cook 2-3 hours at least, and enjoy! :-)

                                                    1. Midlife Jun 26, 2012 05:29 PM

                                                      My memory of my Aunt's "Sunday Gravy" was that she got up at around 6AM to start it, and that it cooked ALL DAY................ 'til maybe 3 or 4 in the afternoon.

                                                      For those still around this topic who are 'in the know'............... how important is the length of cooking time to good gravy?

                                                      4 Replies
                                                      1. re: Midlife
                                                        t
                                                        thimes Jun 27, 2012 07:03 AM

                                                        Who knows if I qualify for "in the know" but . . . .

                                                        There is a huge taste difference between a quick cooked sauce and a long/slow sauce. There is no way to rush the taste you get from long and slow. So for me, the length of cooking time is critical to a "Sunday Gravy" style sauce.

                                                        I don't think you can get that flavor and mouth feel below 4 hours of cooking time.

                                                        1. re: thimes
                                                          j
                                                          jjjrfoodie Jun 27, 2012 09:29 AM

                                                          I agree with thimes.

                                                          Since a traditional Sunda Gravy will often use pork ribs or chops, briscole and other flavorful but less tender cuts of meat, it takes time at a low and slow temp to break down the cologen and connective tissue to make them tender. Think pot roast or short rib cooking times.

                                                          You then also have the sauce component, which mixes whole san marzano's, garlic, red wine and other things in the overall recipe. In order to get those tomatoes cooked down to a near smooth consistancy, that too takes time. You also need the time for the carrots and onions to reach their point of full flavor saturation, again, just like any braised recipe like a pot roast.

                                                          I've never seen an exacting time though. Meat not tender, it's not done. Sauce taste too raw or too tomatoey, it's not done.

                                                          I have had a few in my lifetime that were overcooked, but that was more due to lack of stirring and ending up with scorching the sauce in the bottom of the pot and it tainting the whole batch.

                                                          I can do a quick Sunday gravy in 2.5 hours if I sub tomato puree for whole canned tomatoes and use only a pork chop or 2 along with meatballs and sausage.

                                                          Once you start adding larger cuts of meat or meats with longer cook times and the whole tomateoes, you're looking a t 4 hours minimum as mentioned above for a "traditional" gravy. I plan 6 to 8 hours for large batches or for large gatherings. YMMV of course.

                                                          1. re: jjjrfoodie
                                                            f
                                                            fourunder Jun 27, 2012 09:57 AM

                                                            From my experience, the duration you simmer your gravy largely depends on the type of meats you are including, then the size of the batch you are making. Many years ago I worked for an Italian who used his family recipe for sauce and cooked it overnight. He thought it was great because it was his Nonna's, but most who ordered it thought the Braciole, Spare Rib, Meatball and Sausage were lifeless and tasteless.

                                                            I tend to go to the four hour mark, but I add and remove meats as the process progresses. Tougher cuts go in first, followed by the Braciole, then the meatballs and sausage. There's a big difference between different cuts of beef and pork...and the time needed to make them enjoyable....type of tomatoes used is also a factor as well....but everyone has their own tastes and preferences. There is no right or wrong.

                                                            1. re: fourunder
                                                              coll Jun 27, 2012 01:53 PM

                                                              I agree, I always cook around 4 hours and don't think it would be that much better any longer. Too old to change my ways now!

                                                      2. q
                                                        Querencia Jun 27, 2012 12:16 PM

                                                        Being myself a cook of that same vintage, I suggest that you say to your neighbor "Your sauce is so delicious---will you please teach me how to make it?". When we get to a certain age we want to know that our recipes will outlive us. She would probably be delighted to show you. Even cooks who have guarded a secret recipe for decades do come to realize that They Can't Take It With Them.

                                                        2 Replies
                                                        1. re: Querencia
                                                          t
                                                          TessCooks Jun 28, 2012 08:02 AM

                                                          I will say that the recipe for Sunday gravy in America's Test Kitchen is awesome. I tried just to see how close it would come to my recipe and I was shocked. Try it you will like it.

                                                          1. re: TessCooks
                                                            j
                                                            jennyohoh Sep 23, 2012 02:07 PM

                                                            TessCooks, I'm making Sunday gravy right now using the America's Test Kitchen recipe, plus tips from this post and a few other recipes :) I'm working on a total cooking time of just over 4 hours - we're in the home stretch with 1 hour to go, and it smells DIVINE! The dog is losing her mind over it. This recipe uses the technique of browning the tomato paste with spices and garlic, browning the meat, and uses a "meatloaf mix" for the meatballs, which is a mix of ground beef, pork, and veal. It also calls for a rack of baby back ribs and Italian sausage, plus 2 oz of pancetta in the meatballs. Can't wait! We'll see if it passes the Hubby test.

                                                        2. PoppiYYZ Sep 14, 2013 07:41 AM

                                                          A Butta Big Baw-Ummmp !!

                                                          Looked at a lot of highly rated Gravy / Ragu recipes and they are surprisingly similar :

                                                          Smoking hot good quality EVOO,
                                                          Brown various chunks of meats well (bone in pork/veal/beef + sausage),
                                                          Cook diced onion, add garlic, add tomato paste,
                                                          Little dry red wine now if you wish,
                                                          Add tomatoes and dried herbs (Oregano/Basil/Parsley/Hot Flakes),
                                                          Cook low and slow for 4-5 hrs.
                                                          Optional Meatballs added for last hour,
                                                          Skim oil off top.
                                                          Fresh herbs at the end.

                                                          Mario also had chicken thighs, one called for chicken broth.

                                                          Sauce over Penne as starter, meats served as second course with bitter greens like Rapini.

                                                          Roma tomatoes (San Marzanos and Amish Paste - which were better than the SMs in our head to head plain sauce taste test last night), onions, garlic, basil, oregano, parsley all coming in large from the garden, so... Big batch is on now !

                                                          1. k
                                                            kgp72 Nov 8, 2013 01:51 PM

                                                            I'm happy to help everyone out with how to make some great authentic Italian sauce. Both of my grandmothers are Sicilian and I had the presence of mind years ago to have one of them show me how to make sauce b/c since my parents never made it, I knew the recipe would pass with them some day.

                                                            Start with some pork spare ribs. Cut them into single ribs, salt and pepper, then bake at 250 for maybe 20 min. You just want to slightly brown them, then set aside. The main thing both grandmas told me was to always flavor with pork.

                                                            Next make a batch of meatballs, then brown them all in a pan and set aside.

                                                            Now on to the sauce. Put a generous amount of olive oil in a pan and saute a diced onion and however much minced garlic you like over med heat. Once the onions are soft, add a 14 oz can of tomato paste. Stir occasionally until the paste starts to stick together well, about 10 min. Now you've got the base for your sauce. Transfer the paste mixture to the large pot you'll cook the sauce in, but first add about an inch of water to the pot..

                                                            Open a 14 oz can of whole peeled tomatoes and crush them with your hands before adding to the pot along with juices. Turn on the flame to med-hi heat. Now this is where you add as much tomato sauce as you'd like. You can add up to maybe 8 14oz cans. Add a generous amt of diced celery and chopped fresh flat leaf Italian parsley. Throw in generous amts of dried oregano and a few pinches of sugar.

                                                            Finally, stir everything, then add the meatballs and pork ribs. Bring to a gentle simmer and turn down the heat so that a gentle simmer is maintained. Simmer for at least 3 hrs and up to 4. Around 30 min before you plan to take the sauce off the heat, add a generous amt of chopped fresh basil. Now enjoy the very best Italian tomato sauce you'll ever have, straight from Sicily.

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