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Pesach: Defining Unleavened bread

d
dude Apr 7, 2004 01:25 PM

Something that occurred to me and is relevant to the season:

Matzah is Passover flour and water, baked into hard, flat sheets.
Why couldn't a tortilla made with Passover flour and water and baked (under a learned Rabbi's supervision, of course)into a soft flat sheet qualify as kosher l'pesach?

In the same vein, why not a corn tortilla, made simply from ground corn and water?

Has no one ever thought of it or is there some specific halacha that says that Passover flour can only be used to make hard matza, and all other uses can only be derivative of that matzah?

Thanks.

  1. j
    Jerome Apr 12, 2004 07:25 PM

    The flour used for matzah has to remain free of moisture until water is added for kneading and then there is a time stricture some 18 minutes, I believe from addition of water until completion of baking.

    In the beit hamikdash all the menakhot burnt on the altar had no chametz (the loaves used for Shavuot to lift the special offering were chametz, made with se'or which seems to be sourdough starter, but no part of these was burnt). They were soft because they all had oil and water added when kneading. One min'ha was boiled and then baked, like a bagel. some were baked like wafers on forms (like a pappadum) some were thick. Most were made of white flour (solet) although two were made of kemakh - whole grain flour.

    Matzah that's used at the seder is Lehem Oni, Lakhma 'Ania, bread of affliction and as such has no salt and no oil. Ashkenazi practice is to bake it hard so there is no suspicion of moisture and secondary fermentations. Many people have the custom of avoiding soaking the matzah during the first seven days of the holiday, so no matzah balls or matzah brei in their tradition. The eighth day is less 'hamur, so people will eat at each other's homes more readily.
    For matzah to be such, it has to be made at the very least from one of the five types of grain which are subject to being hametz - rye, wheat, spelt, oats, and barley. Wheat is always preferred (as bread is preffered to cakes, wheaten to other grains, grains to fruits, (in order olives, dates, grapes figs and pomegranates) when making a brakhah to start a meal. So wheat is preferred for matzah. And material from eretz yisrael is preferred to that from the tfutsot.

    So corrections are welcome. For sfaradim, corn is allowed, if you're sure it is 100% corn, produced in circumstances with no suspicion.

    For everyone, if you can get arrowroot flour or chestnut flour and you're sure there is NO chance or your Rav is sure there is no chance of it being hametz, consider making a castagnaccio of chestnut flour or arrowroot flour pancakes. Or you can make potato starch noodles which I've had in soup (when homemade) and they're excellent.

    Or just wait the week.

    3 Replies
    1. re: Jerome
      d
      Dovid Apr 7, 2008 06:03 PM

      Matzah would need to be made from one of the five grains: wheat, barley, spelt, rye and oats.

      1. re: Dovid
        m
        memememe Apr 8, 2008 07:32 AM

        It would need to be made from one of the five grains to be used at seder, to fulfill the mitzvah of eating matzoh, but not if it were to be used for snacking on, right?

        1. re: memememe
          g
          GilaB Apr 8, 2008 08:35 AM

          You can snack on whatever (non-chametz, non-kitniyot if you're Ashkenaz like most American Jews) you want on Pesach, but I wouldn't call it matza. Flatbreads, maybe?

    2. b
      Beerhound Apr 8, 2004 10:21 AM

      As CT Ben Noach notes below, Sephardim traditionally bake soft matzah. See my post at the kosherblog.net re an online source (although it's probably too late for this year).

      Link: http://www.kosherblog.net/index.php?i...

      1. c
        CT Kosher Ben Noach Apr 8, 2004 01:43 AM

        There is soft matzoh as well. We scored some from a Sephardic rabbi in NYC this year - it's really good. It reminds me of Indian nan bread, although it's much more dense.

        Cheers,

        -Nathan

        1. l
          LittleWave Apr 7, 2004 09:54 PM

          I don't think corn is kosher l'pesach

          3 Replies
          1. re: LittleWave
            g
            Gastro-Gnome Apr 7, 2004 11:53 PM

            Regular Corn (and cornmeal) is totally out for Pesach .. isn't that a "given"?? unless it is kosher l'Pesach corn oil, of course ... lotsa details on how that is possible.. ask your rav....

            1. re: Gastro-Gnome
              c
              CT Kosher Ben Noach Apr 8, 2004 01:40 AM

              Corn is "totally out" for most Ashkenazim, my friend, not necessarily other groups. Not everyone is afraid of mistaking corn, beans, and seeds for the five prohibited grains ;-)

              Cheers,

              -Nathan

              1. re: CT Kosher Ben Noach
                g
                Gastro-Gnome Apr 8, 2004 01:57 AM

                Right on, brother Nathan! I know a little about the rules, but not from my youth (was a Reformed Jew back then!) ... then there is kitniot and all it entails ... where is the emoticon for a Sephardic smiley when you need one??

          2. j
            JugglerDave Apr 7, 2004 04:26 PM

            Follow-up: Does matzah by definition need to be completely flat? I was thinking of how nice it would be to have a "cone" of matzah to hold chicken salad, for example.

            -=$>Dave<$=-

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