273089 Tue Feb 17 11:29:56 -0800 2004 13 28 Kosher 0 1436946 "Glatt" or "Natt" (sorry, I love puns) I always figured they were, but curious. Won't affect my life either way. Tue Feb 17 11:29:56 -0800 2004 0 dude 1 1436947 They are Glatt Tue Feb 17 12:33:47 -0800 2004 1436946 0 HG 1 1436951 They only produce poultry, so the concept doesn't apply. Tue Feb 17 13:32:31 -0800 2004 1436946 0 Zev Sero 2 1436952 Please to elaborate. My understanding is that the birds must be subject to the same kind of physical inspections as a cow, proper slaughter, treatment, et al. How would it not apply? Tue Feb 17 13:34:31 -0800 2004 1436951 0 dude 3 1436955 The lungs of a bird are not inspected unless there is some specific reason to suspect that there's something wrong with them (in which case it's probably cheaper to toss the bird into the 'treif' bin than proceed with a labour-intensive inspection). Therefore, the concept of glatt does not apply. It also doesn't apply to veal or lamb, but for the opposite reason - the lungs must be inspected, and any flaw makes them treif, according to all opinions. The Ashkenazic leniency that allows lungs with adhesions, so long as a more detailed inspection finds no hole underneath them, only applies to adult animals. So all veal and lamb that is kosher must be glatt. Tue Feb 17 13:40:29 -0800 2004 1436952 0 Zev Sero 1 1436956 Zev is spot on but I want to bring up two points that may help you when you see poultry products or other things besides beef labeled as "Glatt": 1. Glatt kosher has lately become a consumer phrase for kosher without question. People see it and supposedly feel all goosebumpy inside and this has spurred the labeling. 2. The lungs of fowl can have defects that render it treifa, but not the same kind of adhesions that occur in animals. There are those who feel that nowadays fowl lung problems are also becoming more prevalent and thus require a visual and tactile inspection of fowl lungs (Rav Moshe Sternbuch, Tshuvot v’Hanhagot 2:369). Tue Feb 17 14:56:25 -0800 2004 1436946 0 baruch 2 1436960 "The lungs of fowl can have defects that render it treifa, but not the same kind of adhesions that occur in animals." Super. Order me a bowl of Matzo Ball Soup at the Second Avenue Deli! Tue Feb 17 16:09:20 -0800 2004 1436956 0 cl 3 1436971 Empire Chicken, and the Empire that supplies the 2nd Avenue Deli are two different companies. Tue Feb 17 18:51:12 -0800 2004 1436960 0 Rob 2 1436964 Great answer Zev. Exactly as I learned. I have another question though - does non-Glatt meat make the whole home (or restaurant or whatever) treif or is it just the meat itself that cannot be consumed? In other words, for those who eat glatt-only, would you eat a brisket (served hot) you knew was glatt on china that was used for non-glatt meat or is the china and silverware, etc. treif? Tue Feb 17 18:01:21 -0800 2004 1436956 0 texasmensch 3 1436978 For sefardim, who regard glatt as a requirement, non-glatt meat is treif, and therefore the pot in which it was cooked and the plate on which it was served hot are both treif, and so are everything that was washed with them. Since, even to the strictest ashkenazim, keeping glatt is only a voluntary stringency, they need not go so far as to insist that the pots and plates, etc, also be strictly glatt. So it depends on just how strict a particular ashkenazi wants to be on him/herself. Wed Feb 18 00:28:59 -0800 2004 1436964 0 Zev Sero 4 1436980 Having been familiar with the Caterers who operated the kitchens at the first Sephardim Temples in Brooklyn and New Jersey I'm curious at what point that Poultry and other Meats became a requisite among the "Orthodox Sephardim" with a "Glatt Requirement" since this wasn't originally the case. In Israel it seems that all Kosher Butchers serve all the communities with Meat and Poultry products under Kasheruth. They also have no classification for Glatt Poultry. When and how did this become a regulation among the Sephardim about making it Official that only Glatt products meet their criteria since this doesn't seem to be done universally. It seems that so many things that were accepted for many years have changed without adaquate explanations to the community in general. Plus situations appear to exist that aren't logical. Irwin Wed Feb 18 01:05:51 -0800 2004 1436978 0 Irwin Koval 5 1436981 I'm not sure what you mean about glatt poultry - as I said before, there's no such thing. But sefardim have always required meat to be chalak (glatt); it's ashkenazim who came up with a leniency that allowed non-glatt meat from adult mammals. Let me say that again - glatt is not some new-fangled stringency, it's in the Shulchan Aruch. According to the Shulchan Aruch, the code of Jewish law, non-glatt meat is *not kosher*. End of story. The Rema, whom ashkenazim follow, is more lenient, and allows non-glatt meat, if a careful inspection finds no hole underneath the adhesion. In Europe this leniency was widely relied on, and only particularly strict individuals insisted on glatt; in the changed economic circumstances of America, it became more practical to get glatt meat, and the price difference between glatt and non-glatt shrank to the point where more people could afford the step up, and so the ashkenazi kosher population increasingly opted for glatt, and the demand for non-glatt dropped to where it became unavailable from almost any reliable source. But this is all about ashkenazim. To sefardim, the whole question is moot, because they do not accept the Rema's rulings, and never have, so they don't accept the leniency that allows non-glatt meat in the first place. If you came across a sefardi synagogue that did not insist on chalak meat, they were not following the halacha as sefardim understand it, and should probably not be relied on at all; perhaps chalak wasn't available, and they were dealing with people who, if not given some kind of kosher meat, would eat non-kosher, so their rabbis decided to adopt the Rema's leniency as a temporary measure. Now that not only ashkenazi-style 'glatt', but also real Bet-Yosef glatt, is available, there is no need for such measures. Wed Feb 18 03:02:54 -0800 2004 1436980 0 Zev Sero 6 1436994 Sev Zero; Thank you for responding and answering my query. It is interesting that up until the 60's when there was a general improvement in inspections overall, especially for Kasheruth that it concedes with the general implementing of upgrades to 'Glatt Standards" for Beef inspections. Prior to that being established if I remember correctly the only Beef with Glatt approval was being imported from Canada thru the Hasidim Supervision. With the establishment of better quality standards by the USDA and Rabbi's it seems that was a benefit for the Kosher Community in general much appreciated. Prior to this the Kosher Market was not very important to most major meat processors and those who provided this service did it mostly as a traditional accommodation. I'm sure that after this was implemented it was more successfully since the Hindquarters from Beef that met the Kosher Standards was considered better quality for Restaurant supply jobbers who required better quality for their customers. This also meant higher profits due to the popularity of Boxed Beef where Forequarters could be Broken down for bigger profits especially since the Rib Sections were not the major cuts for the Kosher Markets while the Chuck, Short Ribs, Neck and Shoulder were the most popular. It would be a improvement if the term Glatt wasn't being insinuated to mean more then it actually signifies thru merchandising. Thank you again, Irwin Wed Feb 18 20:45:22 -0800 2004 1436981 0 Irwin Koval 1 1436969 In search of an article in Kosher Today (as recommended by Amy T in the Hebrew National thread not too far below), I couldn't help but notice what Kosher Today called their "Top Story," which is all about Empire and the shaky financial footing they're in. Apparently they've just been sold to a financial holding company ("turnaround" specialists), which is looking to put the company on more solid financial ground. I'm including the link, but it's only a link to Kosher Today's Home Page, which is where the Top Story is today. I'm sure that it'll be moved elsewhere on the KT website soon, so read it ASAP. Among other things, the article talks about the marketing/positioning challenge facing Empire. Apparently (as I discovered in Gourmet on J; see my post in the HN thread) Empire is losing a major segment of the market (what KT calls the ortho/hasidic niche) who don't consider it kosher enough. They've lost a lot of that segment to Vineland and Agri (Agri = Aaron's/Rubashkin), but to counter, Empire is seeking a "strategic partnership" with Alle Processing of Maspeth NY. Who's Alle, you ask? The answer is Meal Mart, which bought the Hebrew National plant in Queens when HN consolidated in Indianapolis. (A little ironic, no?). The bottom line is that food (even kosher food) is very big business in this country. But we knew that already, didn't we? Link: http://www.koshertodaymagazine.com/ Tue Feb 17 18:46:07 -0800 2004 1436946 0 uncle moishy