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kosher draft cider

felix Dec 25, 2003 12:23 PM

Does anybody know of a draft cider that has kosher supervision.I was told that they need kosher supervision. Draft cider is a cider with some alcohol content.

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  1. t
    The Rogue Dec 26, 2003 12:41 AM

    There has been some discussion whether hard cider needs kosher supervision. Sam Adams.. I mean Woodchuck has asked to be checked out for this but no response after a year or two. It seems that most artisinal ciders may be ok because of the ingredients. The same as most artisinal beers. It is definately a good question but one that may not get an easy answer. (I speak not from an expert on kosher but as a sometimes/part time professional hard cider and ale maker) This is one to ask your rabbi for advice. It would be classified more under beer than wine due to alcohol content, ingredients, and how it is made. If I can find out anything I will post and please do the same. I will ask all the professional hard cider makers I know.

    3 Replies
    1. re: The Rogue
      Deven Black Dec 26, 2003 06:30 AM

      I, too, am no expert on kashrut, but apple or other fruit cider is far more similar to grape wine than it is to grain-based beer, so I would expect the rules for making kosher apple or pear cider to be very similar, if not identifcal, to the rules for making kosher wine.

      I do not know those rules, but I understand they involve considerations other than whether the ingredients that go into the beverage are kosher.

      1. re: Deven Black
        p.j. Dec 26, 2003 03:50 PM

        Actually, I would argue that cider is more akin to beer in terms of kashrut requirements.

        Wine and grape juice require kashrut certification because of the presence of grapes, I believe.

        Pure fresh orange juice does not require certification.

        1. re: p.j.
          felix Dec 27, 2003 05:43 PM

          I was told by a well known kosher supervision that draft cider can be problematic and therefore requires kosher supervision. My request was that I was hoping somebody knew of a brand that has supervision. Thanks

    2. a
      AdinaA Jan 25, 2011 02:32 PM

      Pure fruit juice is pure fruit juice. If you can be certain that all the juice maker did was squeeze the orange into a clean container, the juice is as kosher as the orange was.

      Cider is similar. And they are now making fine dry cider that reportedly drinks like good wine.

      Here is a description from what I take to be a typical, upscale, artisanal cider maker.

      "West County Ciders stand out by the simplicity of our ingredients: whole apples, a little yeast, and a bit of sulfite (found in nearly all wines). No sugars, water, flavorings, sorbate, carbon dioxide, or concentrates are used in any of our ciders, allowing for a crisp, clean apple taste in every bottle."

      Grapes and grape juices have halachic complexity. Apple juice is no more complex than orange juice. Cider however, entails sulfites and yeast. The kashrut of which would need to be ascertained.

      Worth looking into, because I've heard good things from people who have tasted this cider.

      8 Replies
      1. re: AdinaA
        avitrek Jan 25, 2011 04:58 PM

        Revolution Cider http://revolutioncider.com/ is made by two frum Jews. I happen to know one of them. I don't know if they plan on getting certification, but I've been told it is Ingredient kosher and theoretically could even be kosher for pesach. They're just getting started and I'm sure their distribution network is very small, but it's worth keeping your eyes out for it, especially if you're in the Philly area.

        Note, I haven't had any yet myself, so I can't speak to the quality, just the fact that I know it's out there.

        1. re: avitrek
          Hirscheys Jan 25, 2011 06:17 PM

          Funny you mention Revolution Cider. We actually had an opportunity to taste their cider at a tasting last year and it is AMAZING! It is real cider, not apple soda with bubbles. They are looking into certification, but my understanding is that it is kosher regardless. Ask your LOR. Hope to post when I find out what retailers it can be obtained at.

          1. re: Hirscheys
            AdinaA Jan 25, 2011 06:42 PM

            Where can I buy it?

            1. re: AdinaA
              RevolutionCider Mar 21, 2011 01:39 PM

              You can buy our products at Supper and Tria in Philadelphia PA. More to come soon!

              1. re: RevolutionCider
                AdinaA Mar 21, 2011 02:06 PM

                If you have a hechscher, you should talk to one of the New York stores with a large kosher clientele, like Gotham Wine or Skyview.

                1. re: AdinaA
                  avitrek Mar 21, 2011 05:08 PM

                  Cider, like beer, is sold in grocery stores in NY, not wine/liquor stores.

                  1. re: avitrek
                    AdinaA Mar 23, 2011 07:39 AM

                    I'm sure you're right. But these new, boutique, dry ciders tend to be marketed in wine-style bottles, and you see sections of them in good wine stores.

                    Although I hope Pomegranate and Fairway will stock it.

                    1. re: avitrek
                      CloggieGirl Dec 19, 2012 04:46 PM

                      Gotham definitely sells a range of ciders.

        2. The Chowhound Team Jan 26, 2011 09:42 AM

          We removed a number of posts from this thread (old and new) and would like to remind people that debating the intricacies of kashruth is really off-topic here. Please keep the focus on finding chow that is delicious (and kosher), rather than on debating how and why something is or isn't kosher. Thanks.

          1 Reply
          1. re: The Chowhound Team
            The Chowhound Team Jan 27, 2011 06:32 AM

            We've moved a discussion of the restrictions of this discussion board to http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/762230 .

          2. g
            ganeden Jan 28, 2011 02:08 AM

            Hard cider typically has no kashrus problems. Kosher-for-Passover is a different story entirely. But for general kosher use, the issues are: ingredients, production facilility, bottling facility, thermal processing. IF all of the ingredients are kosher, one still needs to ascertain that the production facility is kosher, which would typically be the case with a dedicated production facility. The bottling line, too, would certainly be kosher if dedicated exclusively to production of the aforementioned product. If thermal processing were involved, there might be a problem with cooking without Jewish involvement (bishul akum), depending upon the rabbinic decisor. Ingredients-wise, gelatin or isinglass fining would typically be considered improper in kosher product, but even then, there are those who would allow it. Sulfites are always kosher, as are yeasts. For Passover is a different story, yeastwise.

            4 Replies
            1. re: ganeden
              daized79 Jan 28, 2011 08:54 AM

              What's isinglass fining? And where would gelatin enter into the product? Thanks!

              1. re: daized79
                GilaB Jan 28, 2011 10:12 AM

                Isinglass is made from the dried swim bladders of fish (some kosher, some not, like sturgeon): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isinglass It's used to clarify some alcoholic beverages that otherwise might be cloudy. I believe that gelatin can be used for the same purpose, but I'm not sure.

              2. re: ganeden
                zsero Jan 28, 2011 10:47 AM

                As far as I know fining agents such as isinglass or gelatin are universally accepted as OK, because they're filtered out of the final product.

                If one were to worry about this, then the same issue applies to sugar, whose refining used to involve blood, and nowadays involves bone charcoal, neither of which is kosher. There is a teshuva of the Tzemach Tzedek explaining why sugar is nevertheless kosher, because the blood does not exist in the final product.

                And the same issue also applies to clear apple juice; once again, the fining agent used to precipitate the muck out of it is often not kosher, but it's OK because it's filtered out.

                1. re: zsero
                  ganeden Jan 29, 2011 07:34 PM

                  they are not universally accepted as kosher. I do not know any hashgacha which would allow it before the fact.

              3. s
                SamF1701 Mar 21, 2011 03:19 PM

                Strongbow Cider appears to be Kosher, but I'm not sure about the bottling process in the US.

                United Synagogue / London Beth Din (UK)
                and then search for Strongbow or Cider and you'll see they say that Strongbow is Pareve. They also add: "Please note: Our information only applies to products sold in the UK. products on sale in other countries (even if manufactured in the UK) may have different formulations so we cannot advise on their kosher status."

                That said, from other places...

                Kashrut Authority (Australia)

                Union of Orthodox Synagogues (South Africa)
                (Which says only Kosher if it is made in the UK)

                From Stongbow itself:
                "It's manufactured in England...."

                It seems like the product initially is Kosher, but I don't know what happens with the bottling and transport to the US.

                1. w
                  woodchuck2 Jun 2, 2011 11:14 AM

                  Wolf and Lamb Steakhouse in NYC is certified by the OK and serves Granny Smith Apple Woodchuck Hard Apple Cider

                  3 Replies
                  1. re: woodchuck2
                    ATH44 Jun 18, 2011 10:50 PM

                    That's exactly what brought me here and what I was gonna post!

                    1. re: ATH44
                      latke Jun 19, 2011 07:16 PM

                      Except that I emailed the Ok about it and their response was, sadly:

                      Mr. XXXXX,

                      After further research, it has been confirmed that Granny Smith is indeed a flavor. It has been taken off the menu in Wolf and Lamb, and is no longer allowed in our facilities.

                      If you have any questions or concerns, feel free to contact me.

                      Kind Regards,
                      Chana Esther Brennan

                      Restaurant Liaison
                      OK Kosher Certification

                      1. re: latke
                        ATH44 Jun 19, 2011 07:36 PM

                        Thank you. I emailed the OK as well. I'm waiting to hear back from them.

                  2. c
                    cpearl Jun 29, 2012 02:20 PM

                    Angry Orchard is under StarK

                    1. m
                      Moishefrompardes Jul 1, 2012 08:58 PM

                      Angry Orchard is good & kosher. hard cider definately needs a hechsher, most artisinal ones use champagne yeast & that aint kosher without supervision.

                      2 Replies
                      1. re: Moishefrompardes
                        ganeden Jul 2, 2012 12:22 AM

                        On the contrary, Moshe, most Champagne yeast, like all wine yeast, is fine for year around use. The big problem is Pesach, and that requires yeast specially certified for Pesach. Almost all of the freeze dried pure wine yeast cultures, and most mixed cultures as well, are even certified kosher, but there is little to be problematic, until Pesach kashrus is required.

                        1. re: Moishefrompardes
                          CloggieGirl Dec 19, 2012 04:51 PM

                          Angry Orchard is also delicious. 'Crisp' is my favorite.

                        2. m
                          masteraleph Dec 18, 2012 10:01 PM

                          Does anyone know anything about Angry Orchard? Was on here as kosher, but the CRC now has it as not recommended. Does anyone know why?

                          Edited: Huh- The Star-K teudah lists them as certified. Must be a difference of opinion between the two.

                          Also, the Star-K's teudah was updated this week. Might have been a miscommunication.


                          28 Replies
                          1. re: masteraleph
                            PotatoPuff Dec 19, 2012 09:25 AM

                            I've been trying desperately to track down Angry Orchard (I'm assuming it's still kosher). Even if it is acceptable, getting your hands on some (at least on the Upper West Side), is a whole different story. The website lists stores that supposedly carry it, yet many no longer do.

                            1. re: PotatoPuff
                              CloggieGirl Dec 19, 2012 04:52 PM

                              Both Gotham and West Side Market (Broadway between 97 and 98) have it. Enjoy!

                              1. re: CloggieGirl
                                PotatoPuff Dec 20, 2012 08:23 AM

                                Thanks Cloggie! I'm rarely in that part of the 'hood (I live more than 20 blocks south), but will keep in mind for my next venture "uptown". I wish the West SIde Market in the 70's had it. The Angry Orchard website lists plenty of places that carry it but in reality many of the places don't.

                                1. re: PotatoPuff
                                  masteraleph Dec 20, 2012 10:06 AM

                                  Whole Foods (Columbus and 98th) has it, as well.

                                  1. re: masteraleph
                                    PotatoPuff Dec 21, 2012 07:10 AM

                                    Again, a bit far from me but hopefully will have a chance to go there! Thanks so much @masteraleph!

                              2. re: PotatoPuff
                                KosherC Feb 2, 2013 06:38 PM

                                Angry Orchard is NOT certified kosher by the Star-k. They currently import apple cider with no kosher certification. That seems to be the reason that the Star-k was removed.

                                P.S. Angry Orchard sent me an email saying that they were never certified kosher "sorry for any confusion."

                                1. re: KosherC
                                  PotatoPuff Feb 3, 2013 02:23 PM

                                  Ugh seriously! I just bought (and drank!) some, because it WAS listed on the CRC list before. Still have leftovers....

                                  1. re: PotatoPuff
                                    Moishefrompardes Feb 3, 2013 08:03 PM

                                    Seriously,they lost hasgacha for using uncertified Applejuice. an ingredient that only recently was deemed necessary to have hashgacha. & only by some.i stopped serving it at the store, as soon as the hechsher came off. but im pretty sure you dont have to clop al cheit over this horrible kashrus transgression :)

                                    1. re: Moishefrompardes
                                      PotatoPuff Feb 4, 2013 12:47 PM

                                      Haha thanks Moishe. Now off to find a suitable substitute. Apparantly Hardcore Cider is kosher, but impossible to find it anywhere...

                                      1. re: PotatoPuff
                                        Moishefrompardes Feb 4, 2013 04:19 PM

                                        bc hardcore became.............dududduddudu. Angry orchard. same product. changed names

                                        1. re: Moishefrompardes
                                          KosherC Feb 5, 2013 04:37 AM

                                          Are you sure? I know that they are both distributed by Sam Adams, but they are definitely pushing the angry orchard brand.

                                          1. re: KosherC
                                            Moishefrompardes Feb 5, 2013 06:17 AM

                                            i got that from the distributor. i think the teuda lists both bc they were covering them selves during the crossover.

                                          2. re: Moishefrompardes
                                            PotatoPuff Feb 5, 2013 07:23 AM

                                            Hi Moishe, I'm confused... So they are both the same product, but does it have certification when produced under the name Hardcore? Is one brand going to be discontinued?

                                            Soooo sad that it is damn near impossible to obtain kosher cider. It can't be that difficult to make!

                                            1. re: PotatoPuff
                                              Moishefrompardes Feb 5, 2013 09:37 AM

                                              no i think when they were rebranding they both had a starK. according to the teudah the ciders need a starK.IDK, i wouldnt serve it in my store. but, again, the issue was uncertified apple juice. apple juice people!

                                              1. re: Moishefrompardes
                                                KosherC Feb 6, 2013 03:40 AM

                                                The apple concentrate is being imported from France. There are no hechsherim in France. People shop using kosher lists. So, the apple concentrate has no kosher certification, which seemingly is why the Star-k no longer certifies the beer.

                                                1. re: Moishefrompardes
                                                  PotatoPuff Feb 6, 2013 11:36 AM

                                                  So effectively there are NO kosher cider options available in the United States?

                                                  1. re: PotatoPuff
                                                    Moishefrompardes Feb 6, 2013 12:45 PM

                                                    theres one out of philly under the ikc pretty sure i cant serve it at the restaurant. id drink it at your house though.

                                                    1. re: Moishefrompardes
                                                      Beerhound Feb 6, 2013 03:06 PM

                                                      Was cider that popular an item at your restaurant? Also, have you ever considered making it yourself? It's not very difficult, especially if you keg it instead of bottling it.

                                                      1. re: Moishefrompardes
                                                        PotatoPuff Feb 7, 2013 10:49 AM

                                                        Right forgot about Revolution! Wish it were available in NYC

                                                        1. re: Moishefrompardes
                                                          Kosher Critic Feb 7, 2013 12:17 PM

                                                          I'd get some from Philly if you would bring over some Pardes leftovers :)

                                            2. re: PotatoPuff
                                              KosherC Feb 4, 2013 04:56 AM

                                              The CRC put it on the not recommended list, not the not kosher list. Consult your rabbi.
                                              Star-k should have posted a kashrut alert/update.
                                              If enough people email angry orchard maybe they will get kosher certification.

                                              1. re: KosherC
                                                queenscook Feb 4, 2013 05:28 AM

                                                I don't think there is a "not kosher" list; people know that "not recommended" is what they have to say legally.

                                                1. re: queenscook
                                                  KosherC Feb 5, 2013 04:28 AM

                                                  According to the list, hard ciders need kosher certification. Angry orchard has no kosher kosher certification. Why did they make a not recommended list and only include the 3 flavors of angry orchard?

                                                2. re: KosherC
                                                  PotatoPuff Feb 4, 2013 12:49 PM

                                                  Just emailed them!

                                              2. re: KosherC
                                                elansey Feb 4, 2013 02:47 PM

                                                I called and spoke to the Star-K this fall and they said all three Angry Orchard flavors were OK. When did this change?

                                                1. re: elansey
                                                  KosherC Feb 5, 2013 04:16 AM

                                                  I think November.

                                                  1. re: KosherC
                                                    KosherC Feb 6, 2013 03:26 AM

                                                    Sorry, I realize that I first noticed it beginning of October.

                                            3. re: masteraleph
                                              PotatoPuff Dec 19, 2012 09:28 AM

                                              @Masteraleph- WOW! Just read your list and it appears we have another kosher candidate- Hardcore Cider is listed as acceptable by the Star-K on the list you just posted. I'm literately going to the store TODAY to see if I can find some!

                                            4. p
                                              PotatoPuff Feb 13, 2013 04:17 PM

                                              Just got an email from Angry Orchard.

                                              "There was a slight change in the parameters for kosher certification, but we are fortunately in the final stages of becoming re-certified."

                                              I feel soooo happy right now!

                                              4 Replies
                                              1. re: PotatoPuff
                                                avitrek Feb 13, 2013 04:31 PM

                                                Sounds like moshe was right. Hashgacha changed its standard, pulled the hashgacha, and now angry orchard is sourcing new certified apple juice to meet the new standard.

                                                1. re: PotatoPuff
                                                  KosherC Feb 13, 2013 06:03 PM

                                                  This is a copy of the email I received from Angry Orchard.

                                                  November 28, 2012

                                                  Dear ...,
                                                  Angry Orchard was never certified as kosher. Sorry if you were mislead.

                                                  David Duff
                                                  Consumer Relations Assistant

                                                  1. re: KosherC
                                                    PotatoPuff Feb 14, 2013 12:23 PM

                                                    Huh? That totally contradicts the email I received. I'm very lost.

                                                    1. re: PotatoPuff
                                                      masteraleph Feb 14, 2013 05:41 PM

                                                      I'm pretty sure that KosherC's Customer Relations Assistant just had no idea what he was talking about. Star-K had Angry Orchard on its teudot until late this fall (that's discussed upstream).

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