kosher draft cider

Does anybody know of a draft cider that has kosher supervision.I was told that they need kosher supervision. Draft cider is a cider with some alcohol content.

[PotatoPuff]

Just got an email from Angry Orchard.

"There was a slight change in the parameters for kosher certification, but we are fortunately in the final stages of becoming re-certified."

I feel soooo happy right now!

[avitrek]

Sounds like moshe was right. Hashgacha changed its standard, pulled the hashgacha, and now angry orchard is sourcing new certified apple juice to meet the new standard.

[KosherC]

This is a copy of the email I received from Angry Orchard.

November 28, 2012

Dear ...,
Angry Orchard was never certified as kosher. Sorry if you were mislead.
Sincerely

David Duff
Consumer Relations Assistant

[PotatoPuff]

Huh? That totally contradicts the email I received. I'm very lost.

[masteraleph]

I'm pretty sure that KosherC's Customer Relations Assistant just had no idea what he was talking about. Star-K had Angry Orchard on its teudot until late this fall (that's discussed upstream).

[masteraleph]

Does anyone know anything about Angry Orchard? Was on here as kosher, but the CRC now has it as not recommended. Does anyone know why?

Edited: Huh- The Star-K teudah lists them as certified. Must be a difference of opinion between the two.

Also, the Star-K's teudah was updated this week. Might have been a miscommunication.

Compare:
http://www.crcweb.org/LiquorList.pdf
http://www.star-k.org/loc/LetterOfCer...

[PotatoPuff]

I've been trying desperately to track down Angry Orchard (I'm assuming it's still kosher). Even if it is acceptable, getting your hands on some (at least on the Upper West Side), is a whole different story. The website lists stores that supposedly carry it, yet many no longer do.

[CloggieGirl]

Both Gotham and West Side Market (Broadway between 97 and 98) have it. Enjoy!

[PotatoPuff]

Thanks Cloggie! I'm rarely in that part of the 'hood (I live more than 20 blocks south), but will keep in mind for my next venture "uptown". I wish the West SIde Market in the 70's had it. The Angry Orchard website lists plenty of places that carry it but in reality many of the places don't.

[masteraleph]

Whole Foods (Columbus and 98th) has it, as well.

[PotatoPuff]

Again, a bit far from me but hopefully will have a chance to go there! Thanks so much @masteraleph!

[KosherC]

Angry Orchard is NOT certified kosher by the Star-k. They currently import apple cider with no kosher certification. That seems to be the reason that the Star-k was removed.

P.S. Angry Orchard sent me an email saying that they were never certified kosher "sorry for any confusion."

[PotatoPuff]

Ugh seriously! I just bought (and drank!) some, because it WAS listed on the CRC list before. Still have leftovers....

[Moishefrompardes]

Seriously,they lost hasgacha for using uncertified Applejuice. an ingredient that only recently was deemed necessary to have hashgacha. & only by some.i stopped serving it at the store, as soon as the hechsher came off. but im pretty sure you dont have to clop al cheit over this horrible kashrus transgression :)

[PotatoPuff]

Haha thanks Moishe. Now off to find a suitable substitute. Apparantly Hardcore Cider is kosher, but impossible to find it anywhere...

[Moishefrompardes]

bc hardcore became.............dududduddudu. Angry orchard. same product. changed names

[KosherC]

Are you sure? I know that they are both distributed by Sam Adams, but they are definitely pushing the angry orchard brand.

[Moishefrompardes]

i got that from the distributor. i think the teuda lists both bc they were covering them selves during the crossover.

[PotatoPuff]

Hi Moishe, I'm confused... So they are both the same product, but does it have certification when produced under the name Hardcore? Is one brand going to be discontinued?

Soooo sad that it is damn near impossible to obtain kosher cider. It can't be that difficult to make!

[Moishefrompardes]

no i think when they were rebranding they both had a starK. according to the teudah the ciders need a starK.IDK, i wouldnt serve it in my store. but, again, the issue was uncertified apple juice. apple juice people!

[KosherC]

The apple concentrate is being imported from France. There are no hechsherim in France. People shop using kosher lists. So, the apple concentrate has no kosher certification, which seemingly is why the Star-k no longer certifies the beer.

[PotatoPuff]

So effectively there are NO kosher cider options available in the United States?

[Moishefrompardes]

theres one out of philly under the ikc pretty sure i cant serve it at the restaurant. id drink it at your house though.
http://revolutioncider.com/category/u...

[Beerhound]

Was cider that popular an item at your restaurant? Also, have you ever considered making it yourself? It's not very difficult, especially if you keg it instead of bottling it.

[PotatoPuff]

Right forgot about Revolution! Wish it were available in NYC

[Kosher Critic]

I'd get some from Philly if you would bring over some Pardes leftovers :)

[KosherC]

The CRC put it on the not recommended list, not the not kosher list. Consult your rabbi.
Star-k should have posted a kashrut alert/update.
If enough people email angry orchard maybe they will get kosher certification.

[queenscook]

I don't think there is a "not kosher" list; people know that "not recommended" is what they have to say legally.

[KosherC]

According to the list, hard ciders need kosher certification. Angry orchard has no kosher kosher certification. Why did they make a not recommended list and only include the 3 flavors of angry orchard?

[PotatoPuff]

Just emailed them!

[elansey]

I called and spoke to the Star-K this fall and they said all three Angry Orchard flavors were OK. When did this change?

[KosherC]

I think November.

[KosherC]

Sorry, I realize that I first noticed it beginning of October.

[PotatoPuff]

@Masteraleph- WOW! Just read your list and it appears we have another kosher candidate- Hardcore Cider is listed as acceptable by the Star-K on the list you just posted. I'm literately going to the store TODAY to see if I can find some!

[Moishefrompardes]

Angry Orchard is good & kosher. hard cider definately needs a hechsher, most artisinal ones use champagne yeast & that aint kosher without supervision.

[ganeden]

On the contrary, Moshe, most Champagne yeast, like all wine yeast, is fine for year around use. The big problem is Pesach, and that requires yeast specially certified for Pesach. Almost all of the freeze dried pure wine yeast cultures, and most mixed cultures as well, are even certified kosher, but there is little to be problematic, until Pesach kashrus is required.

[CloggieGirl]

Angry Orchard is also delicious. 'Crisp' is my favorite.

[cpearl]

Angry Orchard is under StarK

[woodchuck2]

Wolf and Lamb Steakhouse in NYC is certified by the OK and serves Granny Smith Apple Woodchuck Hard Apple Cider

[ATH44]

That's exactly what brought me here and what I was gonna post!

[latke]

Except that I emailed the Ok about it and their response was, sadly:

Mr. XXXXX,

After further research, it has been confirmed that Granny Smith is indeed a flavor. It has been taken off the menu in Wolf and Lamb, and is no longer allowed in our facilities.

If you have any questions or concerns, feel free to contact me.

Kind Regards,
Chana Esther Brennan

Restaurant Liaison
OK Kosher Certification

[ATH44]

Thank you. I emailed the OK as well. I'm waiting to hear back from them.

[SamF1701]

Strongbow Cider appears to be Kosher, but I'm not sure about the bottling process in the US.

United Synagogue / London Beth Din (UK)
http://www.theus.org.uk/jewish_living/keeping_kosher/keeping_kosher/kosher_product_search/
and then search for Strongbow or Cider and you'll see they say that Strongbow is Pareve. They also add: "Please note: Our information only applies to products sold in the UK. products on sale in other countries (even if manufactured in the UK) may have different formulations so we cannot advise on their kosher status."

That said, from other places...

Kashrut Authority (Australia)
http://www.ka.org.au/index.php/component/option,com_kosherdb/Itemid,61/catid,109/subcatid,243/

Union of Orthodox Synagogues (South Africa)
www.uos.co.za/kashrut/Approved%20Alcohol%20List.xls
(Which says only Kosher if it is made in the UK)

From Stongbow itself:
http://www.strongbow.com/AboutUs.aspx
"It's manufactured in England...."

It seems like the product initially is Kosher, but I don't know what happens with the bottling and transport to the US.

[ganeden]

Hard cider typically has no kashrus problems. Kosher-for-Passover is a different story entirely. But for general kosher use, the issues are: ingredients, production facilility, bottling facility, thermal processing. IF all of the ingredients are kosher, one still needs to ascertain that the production facility is kosher, which would typically be the case with a dedicated production facility. The bottling line, too, would certainly be kosher if dedicated exclusively to production of the aforementioned product. If thermal processing were involved, there might be a problem with cooking without Jewish involvement (bishul akum), depending upon the rabbinic decisor. Ingredients-wise, gelatin or isinglass fining would typically be considered improper in kosher product, but even then, there are those who would allow it. Sulfites are always kosher, as are yeasts. For Passover is a different story, yeastwise.

[daized79]

What's isinglass fining? And where would gelatin enter into the product? Thanks!

[GilaB]

Isinglass is made from the dried swim bladders of fish (some kosher, some not, like sturgeon): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isinglass It's used to clarify some alcoholic beverages that otherwise might be cloudy. I believe that gelatin can be used for the same purpose, but I'm not sure.

[zsero]

As far as I know fining agents such as isinglass or gelatin are universally accepted as OK, because they're filtered out of the final product.

If one were to worry about this, then the same issue applies to sugar, whose refining used to involve blood, and nowadays involves bone charcoal, neither of which is kosher. There is a teshuva of the Tzemach Tzedek explaining why sugar is nevertheless kosher, because the blood does not exist in the final product.

And the same issue also applies to clear apple juice; once again, the fining agent used to precipitate the muck out of it is often not kosher, but it's OK because it's filtered out.

[ganeden]

they are not universally accepted as kosher. I do not know any hashgacha which would allow it before the fact.

[The Chowhound Team]

We removed a number of posts from this thread (old and new) and would like to remind people that debating the intricacies of kashruth is really off-topic here. Please keep the focus on finding chow that is delicious (and kosher), rather than on debating how and why something is or isn't kosher. Thanks.

[The Chowhound Team]

We've moved a discussion of the restrictions of this discussion board to http://chowhound.chow.com/topics/762230 .

[AdinaA]

Pure fruit juice is pure fruit juice. If you can be certain that all the juice maker did was squeeze the orange into a clean container, the juice is as kosher as the orange was.

Cider is similar. And they are now making fine dry cider that reportedly drinks like good wine.

Here is a description from what I take to be a typical, upscale, artisanal cider maker.

"West County Ciders stand out by the simplicity of our ingredients: whole apples, a little yeast, and a bit of sulfite (found in nearly all wines). No sugars, water, flavorings, sorbate, carbon dioxide, or concentrates are used in any of our ciders, allowing for a crisp, clean apple taste in every bottle."

Grapes and grape juices have halachic complexity. Apple juice is no more complex than orange juice. Cider however, entails sulfites and yeast. The kashrut of which would need to be ascertained.

Worth looking into, because I've heard good things from people who have tasted this cider.

[avitrek]

Revolution Cider http://revolutioncider.com/ is made by two frum Jews. I happen to know one of them. I don't know if they plan on getting certification, but I've been told it is Ingredient kosher and theoretically could even be kosher for pesach. They're just getting started and I'm sure their distribution network is very small, but it's worth keeping your eyes out for it, especially if you're in the Philly area.

Note, I haven't had any yet myself, so I can't speak to the quality, just the fact that I know it's out there.

[Hirscheys]

Funny you mention Revolution Cider. We actually had an opportunity to taste their cider at a tasting last year and it is AMAZING! It is real cider, not apple soda with bubbles. They are looking into certification, but my understanding is that it is kosher regardless. Ask your LOR. Hope to post when I find out what retailers it can be obtained at.

[AdinaA]

Where can I buy it?

[RevolutionCider]

You can buy our products at Supper and Tria in Philadelphia PA. More to come soon!

[AdinaA]

If you have a hechscher, you should talk to one of the New York stores with a large kosher clientele, like Gotham Wine or Skyview.

[avitrek]

Cider, like beer, is sold in grocery stores in NY, not wine/liquor stores.

[AdinaA]

I'm sure you're right. But these new, boutique, dry ciders tend to be marketed in wine-style bottles, and you see sections of them in good wine stores.

Although I hope Pomegranate and Fairway will stock it.

[CloggieGirl]

Gotham definitely sells a range of ciders.

There has been some discussion whether hard cider needs kosher supervision. Sam Adams.. I mean Woodchuck has asked to be checked out for this but no response after a year or two. It seems that most artisinal ciders may be ok because of the ingredients. The same as most artisinal beers. It is definately a good question but one that may not get an easy answer. (I speak not from an expert on kosher but as a sometimes/part time professional hard cider and ale maker) This is one to ask your rabbi for advice. It would be classified more under beer than wine due to alcohol content, ingredients, and how it is made. If I can find out anything I will post and please do the same. I will ask all the professional hard cider makers I know.

I, too, am no expert on kashrut, but apple or other fruit cider is far more similar to grape wine than it is to grain-based beer, so I would expect the rules for making kosher apple or pear cider to be very similar, if not identifcal, to the rules for making kosher wine.

I do not know those rules, but I understand they involve considerations other than whether the ingredients that go into the beverage are kosher.

Actually, I would argue that cider is more akin to beer in terms of kashrut requirements.

Wine and grape juice require kashrut certification because of the presence of grapes, I believe.

Pure fresh orange juice does not require certification.

I was told by a well known kosher supervision that draft cider can be problematic and therefore requires kosher supervision. My request was that I was hoping somebody knew of a brand that has supervision. Thanks