264946 Wed Nov 24 17:16:38 -0800 2004 25 26 International 0 1398799 My wife and I return to Italy in two weeks for an annual week's vacation. Over the past fifteen or so years I've explored, as best I can, numerous restaurants in Florence, Verona, Genoa, Bologna and Venice. At this point, with one or two exceptions, we tend to revisit those that we have had wonderful experiences at. Such as Venice's Alle Testiere, Umbria's Il Postale, Florence's Sostanza, Panzano's Vescovino and, of course, Le Calandre, which I have raved about endlessly on here. (I would revisit La Fornace and Baldin near Genoa but can't rationalize the 200 km detour!) For me, return visits to Calandre allow me to sample how Massimiliano's food evolves. Seven or eight years ago he had a lot of misses. Today, he is regarded as a genius, perhaps Italy's greatest chef. Still, the bisteca at Sostanza and the pizza at Il Pizzaiola excepted, I have not found a restaurant in Florence that I really can rave about. Cibreo is excellent but mostly Americans which, for me, is a turn off. (Well, maybe not so many with the Euro at 1.31 to the dollar!) Enoteca was a visit when the Euro was .84 and then I thought it was overpriced so for today I do not return.) We must have been to 25 or 30 other Florentine restaurants and on this trip we dedicate a night to another for a first visit: Beccofino. Has anyone been to this? It is regarded by some as Florence's "hottest" restaurant and one of the more difficult reservations. Wed Nov 24 17:16:38 -0800 2004 0 Joe H. 1 1398800 Joe, I haven't been, but you piqued my curiousity and I looked it up on an Italian site I use from time to time (no Chowhound, but what are you going to do?), and thought the comments might interest you. I attach the link below, not sure if you read Italian, but if not, the general sentiment is very expensive, small portions, service problems and a division on whether the food is good, or just not worth the money. Link: http://www.anidride.com/firenze/locali/italia3.htm Wed Nov 24 18:45:36 -0800 2004 1398799 0 Elaine(Snutteplutten) 2 1398825 I translated it using Babel Fish and, as you noted, almost every comment mentioned high prices as well as small portions. Having said that, I've linked below a response of mine from a couple of weeks ago which includes links to four different sources raving about this restaurant. Included is Gambero Rosso which gives it 46 for food which is the third highest in Florence. Vernonelli also gives it a star (their's is similar to Michelin) and is only one of four starred restaurants in the city. Time Out and Frommer's both rave about it and the Wine Spectator actually ran a feature on it. Having said all this, right now, it looks like we'll go to Lo Strettoio in large part because of Veronelli and absolutely enchanting photos which remind me of La Fornace, the Michelin starred 2,000 year old converted Roman furnace we found north of Genoa. I have a link to their website with many photos as part of it in my post above. Also, Lo Strettoio seems almost obscure with my not being able to find a mention of it anywhere other than Veronelli. I am thoroughly intrigued! I really appreciate your taking the time to respond. We just want to try someplace new this trip, especially one that has received little or no print on here. Sostanza and Il Pizzaiola are the only two restaurants we'll definitely go back to. I've said this before but there MUST be an Alle Testiere (if you will) type of place in Florence; it's just a matter of finding it! By the way, speaking of Alle Testiere-it is mentioned almost nowhere in any guidebook, Michelin, Gambero Rosso, Veronelli, I don't even think it's in Slowfood! I think I was the first person on Chowhound to mention it three or four years ago and honestly, can't even remember how I found it! Thanks again! Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/264853#1398505 Fri Nov 26 14:13:35 -0800 2004 1398800 0 Joe H. 3 1398826 Below is the link to one of the more intriguing photos of Lo Strettoio.... If the food is good this could be the "find" I am hoping for! By the way, thanks also to Chuck G. for your comments. Link: http://www.lostrettoio.com/english/foto2.html Fri Nov 26 14:21:38 -0800 2004 1398825 0 Joe H. 3 1398827 As I said, I haven't been to Beccofino, so can't say one way or the other vis-a-vis their high rating, but I used to always own the Gambero Rosso guide but I've found that in my part of the world (Sicily) it's woefully lacking. Some good restaurants make it in, but some bad ones do too, and they'll often guide you to the blandest, least "Sicilian" place in town. There are places around that proudly display the "Gambero Rosso" sticker that I wouldn't take a dog to eat at. I realize the sentiment behind Gambero Rosso is different from the Chowhound sentiment - they're looking for fine dining, even if that comes at a cost to deliciousness and/or authenticity, and I also realize that my approach to eating out in Italy isn't in sync w/ Gambero Rosso and/or Michelin: the big-ticket places, esp. here in the South, are often just not that worth it, particularly b/c not that many locals have the EE to splash out on these places so they cater largely to tourists and the essence of fine Italian cooking is simplicity - usually takes more love than fancy ingredients to put together. But still, I feel like I'm missing something with this guide. There was breathless coverage in the Italian papers when the new ratings came out. Have other people had better luck with it? Fri Nov 26 15:04:45 -0800 2004 1398825 0 Elaine(Snutteplutten) 4 1398831 Elaine, you're living in Sicily right now? I must tell you how seriously jealous I am of you!!!! From Calabrian hot peppers to Napoletan pizza to Sicilian wine it would seem there must be worse ways to spend several years in one's life!!! On Thanksgiving I wish you the best and KNOW that you will have eaten better than I! Fri Nov 26 18:04:18 -0800 2004 1398827 0 Joe H. 5 1398832 Thanks, Joe. I'm a very lucky woman in that I divide my time between two of the Chowhound wonders of the world, Brooklyn and Sicily. And while I've put down roots here because of love and friendship, I have to admit that I first came for the food! It has rarely disappointed.... Fri Nov 26 20:10:42 -0800 2004 1398831 0 Elaine(Snutteplutten) 1 1398809 I have been to Beccofino several times in the last two years and while it is good it is not at the level of Testierre or Calandre, etc. The food tends to be a modern update on traditional dishes - not always successful. The restaurant as a whole feels as if it could be in NYC or SF - fairly slick, mood lighting, somewhat spotty service, etc. Wine list is good but features Mazzei bottlings ( one of the co-owners). I would try it but not if it's your only night in Florence. Alternatives might be Taverna del Branzino - fairly upscale, great food & list and very attractive rooms - a toned down version of Pinchiorri but not anywhere as expensive but there will be some non-Italians. Also consider Cavalo Nero - mostly locals, very good but somewhat limited menu and well priced list. Small intimate place, friendly and seriously good food but not a four hour experience. To me this is akin in style and feeling to Testierre which is my favorite in Venice. By the way Lucca tells me Testierre will be closed several weeks over Xmas and New Years when we will be in Venice because he is unable to get decent fish - makes one wonder about the other restaurants. Thu Nov 25 11:00:35 -0800 2004 1398799 0 chuck g 2 1398811 Taverna del Branzino ... I second that one. We had a lovely meal there several years ago. Not only was the food good (free grappa afterwards) but we spied friends we hadn't seen in 20 years sitting across the room. So our meal extended into dessert and beyond and no one rushed us out. Thu Nov 25 11:32:51 -0800 2004 1398809 0 zuriga 2 1398820 I've been to Taverna Del Branzino and know of its reputation. Still, I was very disappointed on my only visit. This was the next night after going to the "old" di Vinus who had a bisteca that rivalled Luger's. Branzino is known for this and fell far short of the previous night's experience. I'll go back to Sostanza on this trip and, while I like Cibreo, do not like going to a restaurant in Italy where the predominant language spoken by diners is English. In years past Cibreo has delivered this very experience which, for me, detracts from the excellent food. With the dollar now at $1.33 to the Euro (and falling every day!) that may not be a problem! Still, Branzino, again for me, was a very real disappointment. Your thoughts on Beccofino feeling like New York echo what I've heard elsewhere and, again, is a distraction. I just want to feel like I'm in Italy and this doesn't do it for me. Thu Nov 25 22:46:48 -0800 2004 1398809 0 Joe H. 3 1398828 "I...do not like going to a restaurant in Italy where the predominant language spoken by diners is English...I just want to feel like I'm in Italy and this doesn't do it for me." Joe, I know my comment here may not be to your point, as I know you are looking for a great dining experience. Nonetheless... I certainly agree with you. And because we don't like being in restaurants in Italy where most diners are speaking English, we very rarely go to Florence or Rome or other places where there are bound to be lots of tourists. We visit the small towns and eat in the local trattorias where the local people eat. When in Rome or Florence, we go off the main streets and eat in restaurants that appear to be popular with the people living and/or working in the neighborhood. Yes, there are some misses, but during two visits in the last year I have had tripe that melted in the mouth, grilled meat to die for, roast shrimp that made me want another plateful, and fritto misto that made me moan. And all for very reasonable prices. This means that instead of high cuisine (cucina alta?) we mostly eat whatever the local country-type dishes are. But with some care in selecting the restaurant and in ordering, our method generally results in fantastic meals. And when I'm in a restaurant surrounded by Italians talking, eating, and drinking--and clearly loving it--I certainly do feel like I'm in Italy. That said, I will say that the one time that we broke the rule and went to Vissani, we did happen to be the only English-speakers in the room. The only other non-Italian was a Japanese businessman dining alone. And this was on a beautiful Sunday in May when the dollar was doing well against the lira. But even then, I didn't necessarily feel like I was in Italy. Just in a fine restaurant that served Italian food. Fri Nov 26 15:49:21 -0800 2004 1398820 0 bacchante 4 1398830 Cibreo is superb. But in a room where more than 50% of the diners are speaking English this is just a personal turnoff for me. Il Latini is like this also; in fact Il Latini actually groups "non Italians" together at tables. But the difference between Cibreo and Il Latini is that the first is genuinely excellent and the latter is the Olive Garden of Florence. Seriously, on this trip with the dollar at $1.34 as I type this, we will have one blowout dinner at Le Calandre, and four semi cheap dinners elsewhere. Sostanza is not an expensive restaurant, certainly not Il Pizzaiola. For our other three dinners on the trip my guess is that we won't spend more than, say, $125 Euros for any of them. If the dollar was at $.83 as it was four years ago I could rationalize Michelin starred restaurants every night. At $1.34, today, I am much more about "neighborhood" excellence, if you will! Fri Nov 26 17:57:22 -0800 2004 1398828 0 Joe H. 5 1398863 We just came back from Tuscany. We went to Beccofino because, like you Joe, we heard that it was the hottest spot in town. But it's just an enoteca with a very good atmosphere. I did not want to eat there. From my recent trip in Toscano, I would highly recommend Arnolfo, a big no-no to La Tenda Rossa, a hearty recommendation for Antinori's Taverna di Passignano, Poggio Antico's taverna, and Castello di Banfi's taverna. BTW, as for Pizzaiolli (sp?) for pizza in Florence, I was a bit disappointed this time because the pizza was a little too doughy as compared to the da Michele's in Napoli--I'm not sure I'd go back. As for Sostanza, it was closed as well as Vescovino because the chef was in NYC for James Beard. Overall, the best restaurant we had on this trip was in Battibecco's of Bologna. Sun Nov 28 22:47:37 -0800 2004 1398830 0 eater 6 1398879 Interesting. I've been to Battebecco five or six times dating back to the early '90's. Bitone in Bologna also. But the last visit to Battebecco was disappointing which was particularly frustrating since I really used to like this restaurant. Vescovino is typically closed in December. We'll definitely go to Sostanza-we already have reservations. Il Pizzaiola, too, for lunch-I guess that I need to have an indifferent experience before I not go back. I doubt that we'll go to Beccofino nor his other restaurant although we'll probably be near either Prada or the Mall although with the Euro at $1.335 as I type this I actually hope that I can stay away (!). I do think that we'll go to Lo Strettoio in large part because a combination of the photos (reminds me of La Fornace which I loved) and the star from Veronelli. Honestly, the fact that it has never been mentioned on here is a plus for me also. Mon Nov 29 15:17:42 -0800 2004 1398863 0 Joe H. 7 1398883 I've never used Veronelli, or was even aware of it, til Joe mentioned it. I looked up their recs on line, and have to say that for Sicily, many of their recs were dead on. There's some overlap with Slow Food, but they also pick up some places that don't make Slow Food that I love (like Osteria di Vespri in Palermo, which is one of my regular favorites). So, I'd say that a rec from them bears investigating... Mon Nov 29 15:56:38 -0800 2004 1398879 0 Elaine(Snutteplutten) 5 1398865 Just out of curiousity Joe, do you prefer not to consult the Slow Food Osteria guide? We too are trying to plan a week's worth of eating in Firenze --- around the falling dollar --- and having had 3 yrs' running of wonderful meals in Piemonte (and often the only foreigners on the premises) with the help of the guide we'll surely be putting it to use in Florence. Mentioned in the guide for Florence: Al Tranvai Da Burde (lunch only) Da Nerbone Da Sergio Mario Ruggero Tre Soldi (and, Il Cibreo) Of particular interest to me (not having much familiarity with Tuscan wines and eager to sample as much as possible) is the 3 page-list of notable enoteca and vineria in the city. Mon Nov 29 01:40:33 -0800 2004 1398830 0 foodfirst 6 1398880 I've used Slow Food before with excellent results. But there are also some exceptional restaurants such as Sostanza and Alle Testiere which are NOT in it nor in any of the other guides either. Sostanza is exactly the type of experience that you and I are looking for and my interest in Lo Strettoio is, as noted below, because of the photos and the sole review I could find. Also, it's price range (E 45-50) is about the range I'm looking for. Three years ago we found a place across the Arno we loved, di Vinus. But the next year it was sold and the owner's new restaurant behind the Excelsior, Parioni was good but wasn't on the same level, nor did it have the same "rustic" ambience. Still, having said this, I am bringing the Slow Food guide with me. I'll also ask the concierge and several other people for their opinions and may end up in one of the Slow Food places anyway!!!! You really SHOULD go to Sostanza as part of your trip to Florence. Serious. Thanks again. Mon Nov 29 15:24:31 -0800 2004 1398865 0 Joe H. 7 1398902 Sostanza is a done deal. And early enough in the trip so we have the option of returning! Tue Nov 30 02:06:15 -0800 2004 1398880 0 foodfirst 8 1398933 I think that Sostanza is closed for dinner on weekends. We couldn't believe it at first but our hotel manager checked. I was vastly disappointed that we couldn't eat at Sostanza on our last trip to Florence. It has possibly the best chicken dish I've ever tasted. The bistecca is phenomenal as well. Wed Dec 01 15:47:59 -0800 2004 1398902 0 eater 9 1401156 What price range is Sostanza in? For insatnce what would a bistecca dinner cost? Thanks in advance! Fri Feb 18 00:16:49 -0800 2005 1398933 0 Eva 3 1401155 What is old Di Vinus? I'm looking for a great Bistecca in Florence. Fri Feb 18 00:11:31 -0800 2005 1398820 0 Eva 1 1398871 We ate at Beccofino in 2001. I loved it. It had a bit of an edge and offered, as advertised, a modern interpretation of classic dishes. I still remember the salmon I had - one of the best salmon dishes ever - prepared with a Sicilian twist including tomatoes, eggplant, raisins, etc. From the responses here, it appears that over the past 3 years, Beccofino has become more of a happening place. But when we were there, we had a great evening with delicious, affordable food. Mon Nov 29 10:28:32 -0800 2004 1398799 0 mamc 2 1398873 my impression from reading reviews is that the chef's place out in Montevarchi, which seems to be more traditional might be more satisfying. Mon Nov 29 11:53:27 -0800 2004 1398871 0 jen kalb 3 1398888 i am in montevarchi every so often..what place you referring to -please??? grazie mille amico Mon Nov 29 18:07:39 -0800 2004 1398873 0 doc 4 1398891 I think Jen's talking about the Osteria di Rendola, which Beccofino chef Francesco Berardinelli (sp.?) did or does own. (oh, and unless Jen's been engaging in some pretty deep cover throughout the years I've been enjoying her posts about my favorite places in the world, Brooklyn and Italy, I'm guessing she's an "amica" and not an "amico":)). Mon Nov 29 18:55:31 -0800 2004 1398888 0 Elaine(Snutteplutten) 5 1398892 Looks absolutely charming! Thanks! Link: http://www.osteriadirendola.it/eng/restaurant.asp Mon Nov 29 19:08:04 -0800 2004 1398891 0 Joe H.