264222 Sat Mar 13 23:44:38 -0800 2004 21 26 International 0 1395425 I am heading to Paris at the end of the month and want to spurge on one great meal. Considering: Taillevent Gran Vefour Guy Savoy Les Elysees du Vernet Have eaten at Lucas Carton, La Tour d'Argent and Maxims in the past (though years ago) Also wondering about: Le Meurice Pierre Gagnaire Jamin Le Bristol I enjoy haute cuisine, but not tiny, tiny portions. Where should I go? Please advise. Merci! Sat Mar 13 23:44:38 -0800 2004 0 Alison 1 1395434 Can you give some ideas on preferences? How important is wine, service, setting, do you want cutting edge food or more classical cooking? What did you dislike, like about your previous meals at this level in Paris? Sun Mar 14 10:52:50 -0800 2004 1395425 0 mdibiaso 2 1395435 To better clarify my criteria, I am looking for a memorable dinner with superb food (priority #1) at either a 2* or 3* that serves traditional French food vs. avant guard, which I believe eliminates Pierre Gagnaire and L'Arpege. Wonderful ambience, service and a great wine list are equally as important. Also, I would prefer to eat at a restaurant that has a tasting menu in addition to ala carte as I personally want to go the tasting menu route. Is Guy Savoy more trendy than traditional? Sun Mar 14 11:56:46 -0800 2004 1395434 0 Alison 3 1395436 When you mention you "personally" want to choose the tasting menu, it is very generally the case that your dining companions would also have to choose the tasting menu for you to be able to do so. Sun Mar 14 13:07:44 -0800 2004 1395435 0 cabrales 3 1395446 Tasting menu and traditional French food is not an easy combo. Three stars serving traditional food that I have been to include Lucas Carton, Ducasse and Ambroisie. None of these have tasting menues with many dishes (LC has a 4 course menu and will let you order half dishes, Ducasse has a menu of 4 dishes composed of any 4 half course you please). Ambroisie is a 3 course place. These leaves, of the 3 stars I have been to that have traditional, Guy Savoy and Taillevent, having tasting menues and great wines lists. The atmosphere in Taillevent is more traditional and opulent, Guy Savoy is more modern, New York style. Mon Mar 15 02:07:13 -0800 2004 1395435 0 mdibiaso 4 1395453 "LC has a 4 course menu and will let you order half dishes" Could you elaborate on what you mean by the restaurant allowing the diner to order half-dishes? Also, is the price 1/2 of the full dish's price? Is that benefit, to your understanding, available to all diners? Mon Mar 15 08:56:49 -0800 2004 1395446 0 cabrales 5 1395455 Guy Savoy does half portions at half prices. Frankly, the approaches being considered and suggested for a single splurge meal in Paris strike me as unlikely to lead to an extraordinary experience. Mon Mar 15 09:06:11 -0800 2004 1395453 0 idele 6 1395456 I don't disagree with idele's last comment, but that assessment would be based on my own preferences. Of the four places originally cited by the poster, I'd rank them as follows: Guy Savoy Grand Vefour Taillevent Les Elysees du Vernet (never visited; note change in chef within the last year, with Soliveres having left to join Taillevent) Consider adding Ledoyen to your possibilities. It's a three-star at which I've only had one meal (more than a year ago). I liked it. Although I don't necessarily like L'Ambroisie, it might be a better/more reliable choice than Grand Vefour and Taillevent cuisine-wise. Mon Mar 15 09:38:31 -0800 2004 1395455 0 cabrales 7 1395460 All the 3 star restaurants that will do half dishes (even though there is no mention on the menu) have charged exactly half price for each dish. You just ask politely saying you want to try as many dishes as possible. And then you make up your own tasting menu. But I would think that at many 3 stars like Lucas Carton it is not easy to have more than 3 half dishes plus a dessert. The food is very rich and if you are at LC and drinking the wine by the glass the amount of alcohol you can consume becomes a limit as well. Tell us about your experience at Lucas Carton. I think that if you want to have an extraordinary experience with classical cooking you could go back and order as half portions the langoustine, the vanilla lobster and one other dish, then the fourme d'ambert cheese followed by a dessert. If you have all of these with the suggested wine you will have had some very classical stuff, amazing wine combinations and quite a hefty bill. Say that Marc from Sweden recommended you to go and that you are celebrating a special occassion when you arrive and the service should be at its peak as well. Mon Mar 15 12:42:57 -0800 2004 1395456 0 mdibiaso 8 1395465 Well, that was implicitly part of my question. If you order 1/2 a dish, you would still presumably be charged for the full wine combination, no? So that would leave diners who opt for this tasting approach paying effectively for twice as many glasses of wine. Not such a good deal when refills are free of charge, for any given wine, potentially (esp in cases where the glass of wine is more expensive than the dish). Esp when one is ordering the vanilla lobster, at the times when the accompanying wine is Corton Charlemagne (not always). Mon Mar 15 13:28:54 -0800 2004 1395460 0 cabrales 9 1395466 Also, are you aware of which three-stars will allow people to order 1/2 dishes, when it's not two people each ordering a dish for a given course and then getting 1/2 of each person's serving? To my recollection, I haven't pursued this possibility, out of potential etiquette considerations, in Paris, except when I once ordered various game dishes at Le Cinq. Mon Mar 15 13:31:57 -0800 2004 1395465 0 cabrales 10 1395473 I was staying at the Radisson Hotel remodeled from the original Vuitton building on the avenue Marceau which is a short walk to Guy Savoy. I decided to try lunch there by myself and had the concierge reserve for arrival fifteen minutes later. No tie or jacket; just a neat sweater. I wanted a simple lunch - entree and plat, half bottle Volnay and a full bottle of Perrier ( I prefer water with gas. By the way Perrier is generally priced like Coca-Cola in France so is more costly than still water). The waiter must have told the maitre d'hotel about my simple order because he came over and offered two half entrees ( to enhance my gastronomic experience I suppose although I had eaten there before) The "half-entrees" seemed to be almost whole entrees. And my light lunch became much heavier. In any case half orders were offered to me a single diner. And since service is included I don't ever add extra for service (which was excellent). Mon Mar 15 15:19:23 -0800 2004 1395466 0 idele 11 1395496 I have had half dishes with no problems on my own at Lucas Carton. The only problem I have had was with the lobster since they have to boil a whole one. And several times the half dish actually seemed like a whole one in size but the price was still have. Yes you end up paying more for wine this way (but you probably drink more as well) but they did say this was a splurge and I did warn this would be expensive. I is outside Paris but I have also had no problems with half orders at Boyer even if only one person wanted the half order. Same for Le Bristol in Paris but that could have been because I have a very special contact working there. Tue Mar 16 08:53:59 -0800 2004 1395473 0 mdibiaso 12 1395500 Lucas-Carton has been kind in other ways. When I finally tried the Canard Apicius, which is for two, I ordered two portions (as required) and specified that I thought it appropriate to be charged for the whole duck (the duck is among the least expensive items on the menu, but that's not why I asked to be fully charged of course). However, I was only charged for one person's serving. I also wonder what happens with things like the onion de cevennes/caviar dish when there is only one diner. If the onion is cooked in the white clay ball initially shown to the diner, the onion in the ball would be sufficient for more than one person. True, the caviar portion can be only for one. But there would be some inefficiency with respect to the onion. The reason that I haven't asked for halves at Lucas-Carton is that I wonder whether it would be an imposition. Even if the restaurant were willing to do it, would it be less than easy for the restaurant? Especially the lobster with vanilla dish. I would also imagine that certain dishes' proportions would have to given particular attention to (e.g., pigeonneau de KeriXXX or whatever the location that's the origin of some of LC's pigeonneau). Take the langoustines wrapped in vermicelli, they normally arrive as 3 langoustines. If you order half, you're probably going to get 2 langoustines plus the same amount of dipping sauce. So that's potentially unfair to the restaurant, and more troublesome. Tue Mar 16 09:40:07 -0800 2004 1395496 0 cabrales 13 1395527 Cabrales, I agree that LC are very gracious hosts. The fact that much of the staff has been at the same place for so many years is proof of the commitment they all have to the establishment. One time I was feeling ill when I arrived and the treatment I got can only be described as Grandmotherly. In fact, that night I had had a glass of Champagne and amuse brought to the table when I decided I had to go back to the hotel. When I tried to pay something they flat refused. An attempted tip received the same "cold" response (and I was not supposed to return on that trip but I found a way to do so). And I can honestly say that great treatment like serving half portions was given long before I become a recognizable customer. And I honestly believe they enjoy helping and would not do something that was "challenging" (like serving a half portion of the lobster to one person as they informed my one time). In return I often now have some little gift from Sweden with me for the staff when I visit (besides tipping about 10% which gets to be quite a bit because Lucas Carton is not cheap). I could bring something like some cloudberry jam or a bottle of Swedish Ice Wine. When Jerome was the head sommelier I even had some gifts for his son Charles who is the same age as my daughter. I do not believe they find interested and open customers, even if they have special requests, to be a troublesome. In fact, I am sure that without the gifts they would still give me the same service and be just as happy to have me there. The gifts are actually more for me to feel good then for them. I think they just appreciate that a customer is not just "doing" the restaurant, and hope that their treatment will create return visits and recommendations. And that's what I try to do. I am only in Paris once or twice a year so normally I do not have more than 3-4 meals a year at Lucas Carton. But I go every chance I get and often give recommendations here and suggest dropping my name. Hopefully that leads to more customers for them, and in return they now that I am help them fill tables with motived customers. All in all I find it to be a giving relationship for both parties. It has been almost 6 months since my last visit and this post is making me very "homesick". Tue Mar 16 14:01:37 -0800 2004 1395500 0 mdibiaso 14 1395530 I really like being at Lucas-Carton too, and the dining room team has very much to do with it. The maitre d's actually remember (I don't know how) which dishes I've had before. For example, on my last visit, I was torn between the tasting menu (the one you had) and ordering the langoustines wrapped in vermicelli followed by the lievre a la royale (a seasonal item I've always wanted to sample at L-C) or the poulet Bresse. The maitre d' actually mentioned in analyzing which menu would be best that I had had (1) the langoustines before, as well as (2) the white truffle polenta included in the tasting menu. I of course remembered each dish, but I was surprised that the gentleman remembered what I had had before. Also, the sommelier who was in charge of the cigars similarly remembered which cigars I had had before. :0 Do you find that you tend to get seated at the same table, now that you have visited a number of times? Initially, I would get seated at different tables, but now I seem to get a certain table in the second (left-hand-side relative to entryway) room that the restaurant had once asked me about. I think it was in the context of whether I preferred the "inner" part of the second room (which I do) or the part closer to the windows. BTW, it's nice that Lucas-Carton has joined Relais & Chateaux. Tue Mar 16 14:35:29 -0800 2004 1395527 0 cabrales 15 1395552 Yes, I get seated at in the second room at the first table to the left as you enter the room (a good table for single diners) and where you sit if I am dining with others. And they do remember what I have eaten and will often make suggestions regarding eating order (having a foie gras entree as the last course before desert due to its richness or having the fourme d'ambert after dessert in English style). As far as the langoustine goes, it is my favorite and I have even had just one show up in the middle of the meal as an extra complementary treat, so I guess they remember :-) Wed Mar 17 02:00:32 -0800 2004 1395530 0 mdibiaso 16 1395557 Did the restaurant offer you 1/2 portions, or how did you bring the issue up? Wed Mar 17 09:23:08 -0800 2004 1395552 0 cabrales 17 1395565 The first time I was there for lunch and wanted to eat off the ala carte dinner menu. There was no real tasting menu so I asked if it was possible to have half portions. The waiters got Jerome the sommelier to come over and he explained it was no problem except for certain dishes like the lobster (which I ended up having in a full portion instead). And now I often just ask them to decide themselves what I should eat and drink and they always end up bringing 4-5 courses in half sizes at half price. Wed Mar 17 11:23:53 -0800 2004 1395557 0 mdibiaso 18 1395580 But the wine paired is still for a glass at the full price? Wed Mar 17 15:12:13 -0800 2004 1395565 0 cabrales 19 1395596 Yes, no half price or half glasses. Just full price with full glass free refills. Thu Mar 18 03:36:02 -0800 2004 1395580 0 mdibiaso 20 1395607 I've been meaning to try the Canard Apicius again, but I've been reluctant because the restaurant probably wouldn't charge me for the 2-person serving and I would be inconveniencing it again. I was disappointed the first time I tried the Canard, esp with the different aspects of sweetness in the dish (incl. in the date puree). I also didn't think the Banyuls was the perfect match for either the first serving or the second serving. It seemed too sweet for an already sweet dish. But I am open to trying to better understand this Canard. I have gone to lengths such as trying to get different versions of the original Apicius recipe, and making comparisons. Of course, garum is not available nowadays and the nuoc nahm is not really a good substitute. Very weirdly, I saw that Ryland Inn (Tristate region) had a version of "Apicius" duck on its a la carte menu recently. I didn't sample it, but I doubt it's the same. Thu Mar 18 10:47:17 -0800 2004 1395596 0 cabrales