263609 Thu Nov 27 08:13:41 -0800 2003 19 26 International 0 1392350 Cabrales I am sure I am just one of many on this board that respects your opinion and your breadth of knowledge on top class restaurants. Therefore it would be great to know which restaurant serves the best food today in your opinion. I know that the question is really not fair since there are so many styles of food. But based on your current personal interests which places do you believe has the best food to match. This means you have to ignore atmosphere and service on this one. Even though those are extremely important parts of the whole experience and important in making a decision where to dine. But it would be so great to know what excites your finely tuned tastes buds most right now. PS even though this is on the international board does not mean your choice has to an international restaurant, it could be in the North America as well. Thu Nov 27 08:13:41 -0800 2003 0 mdibiaso 1 1392351 "PS even though this is on the international board does not mean your choice has to an international restaurant, it could be in the North America as well." If the above is the case, we'd like to ask that restaurants that aren't "International" be posted on the appropriate regional board. Keeping postings where they belong, benefits all of us. Thanks. And, Happy Thanksgiving! Thu Nov 27 09:16:34 -0800 2003 1392350 2 The Chowhound Team 1 1392355 My subjectively preferred restaurant is L'Arpege, Paris :) Thu Nov 27 21:26:13 -0800 2003 1392350 0 cabrales 2 1392365 Guess what just got on my must list next time in Paris. I was there once about 4 years ago and was underwhelmed. But I also know that it helps to visit a place a few times. I also love vegetables so maybe I will try a pure vegetable menu when I go. Thanks. Fri Nov 28 00:18:03 -0800 2003 1392355 0 mdibiaso 3 1392376 If you go to L'Arpege dont forget to bring a wheelbarrow to carry your money. Over 300 euros per person for the tasters menu last year- it will be more next year and still more the year after.Very few foodies agree with me, but I think it requires a high degree of insanity to pay that kind of money for his food. Fri Nov 28 21:54:24 -0800 2003 1392365 0 cy 4 1392378 Is this the one where they only serve a vegetable menu? Fri Nov 28 23:16:05 -0800 2003 1392376 0 HKTraveler 5 1392379 No Fri Nov 28 23:17:27 -0800 2003 1392378 0 cabrales 4 1392380 Cy, you are one of the very few people who have eaten at as many or more starred restaurants than Cabby. For those who don't know Cy was virtually a regular at both Robuchon and Girardet; he also visited El Bulli this year and, correct me if I am wrong, has invested 40 to 50 years in eating his way extensively through Europe. What are you two or three favorite restaurants anywhere currently? Of all the restaurants you've been to is there one overall that you prefer? Or are there several and it would depend on circumstances? Good to hear from you again, Cy. By the way my wife and I will be at Le Calandre outside of Padua in 11 days. Then I have a binge of sorts in Paris three weeks later. Have you been to L'Astrance? Also, I was in Orlando a week ago and had dinner at Norman's; I've also been to the Coral Gables restaurant but it's been several years. Overall it was very good but, Cy, he had the absolute best ice cream I've ever had in my life: macadamia nut brittle. I had three orders of it. Serious. All for myself. Our table of five literally ate all of what they had left! I make ice cream myself with a hand cranked White Mountain freezer and will spend the better part of the winter trying to duplicate it. Joe Heflin Fri Nov 28 23:24:27 -0800 2003 1392376 0 Joe H. 5 1392382 While I would be happy to hear Cy's and others' views, I'd like to emphasize that dining is not necessarily predominantly a question of quantity (i.e., number of visits), but involves many facets. I am not saying that to bolster my own experience level. I simply believe that each diner has her history and her own observation and her own preferences. That being said, I have no doubt that Cy has had experiences that I have not, as I have lived for somewhat less than 40-50 years. Second, I'd like to add that reading about cuisine is as significant, in my own mind, to becoming knowledgeable than dining. That's not the route for everybody, but for me that's a significant route. Third, while I appreciate that's not being done, I don't believe one needs to recite one has visited restaurants to demonstrate anything. Taking in cuisine is not that type of activity. That being said, my preferred restaurants are: L'Arpege, Paris Maison Troisgros, Roanne Naturally (meaning, for me), they're both in France :) Fri Nov 28 23:55:46 -0800 2003 1392380 0 cabrales 6 1392389 Hi Joe- and Hi Cabby I would never presume to consider myself equal in any way to Cabby in terms of taste, knowledge, palate or expertise. That is sincerity, not sarcasm. My endless years travelling in France in no way qualify me as an expert, only a big spender:) As to my favorites in Europe curently, I have a few.No 1 is L'Arnsbourg, then Jardin des Sens and Dal Pescatore, notwithstanding that both have suffered severe put-downs on all three food chat channels, and last is Neichel in Barcelona, despite the fact that Michelin has just dropped their second star. Michelin must be losing it, because I know what I just ate there a few months ago- it was absolutely superb. Favorites from years gone by are meaningless. As the song goes in Chicago "nothing stays". My favoritesin the U.S. - pointless. I havent been in any major city for many years. Have been to Normans twice recently. Unimpressed both times and am kissing it goodbye. The ice cream? didnt see it on the menu. Sat Nov 29 13:56:23 -0800 2003 1392382 0 Cy 7 1392390 Hi, Cy (and hi again, Joe) -- You understate your talents, and significantly overestimate my capabilities. :0 I appreciate you may not have time to respond to the questions below, but I wondered, if you wish to respond... Are your current favorites in Europe your favorites in the world as well? Why do you rate L'Arnsbourg so highly? (I agree it has very good cuisine, based on a single meal, but wouldn't place it right at the top.) What aspects of Jardin des Sens' cuisine appeal most to you? Do you believe that Jacques Pourcel's reduced presence in the kitchen (or is it Laurent) has affected the general nature of the cuisine? Do you like the Companie des Comptoirs (I have never visited one), or Maison Blanche (sp) in Paris (never visited) as well? Speaking of Neichel, I have never visited. Is its cuisine different during lunch and dinner? What are the better dishes at this venue? What is Neichel's wine list like, and are there Spanish whites that I should focus in particular on? How do you take price of a meal into account in your evaluation of a restaurant's cuisine (to me, it's irrelevant, when the cuisine is as it should be)? Have you taken into account L'Arnsbourg's 100 euro or so price for its tasting menu (as of 2001, at least) into account in naming it your currently preferred restaurant? Why do you express such skepticism that "nothing stays" with respect to restaurants? Couldn't a restaurant have a great chef who continues to produce great cuisine? Sat Nov 29 14:29:17 -0800 2003 1392389 0 cabrales 8 1392413 Cabby I wrote a long, long ,endless reply to you- over an hour spent typing, and still had quite a way to go when suddenly I must have touched a wrong button or something becausethe whole thing disappeared.I have no idea how to find it or retrieve it. No way do I have the energy to redo it. When my wife gets home perhaps she can figure out a way to find it. Otherwise it will have to be consigned to limbo. Sorry. I'm writing this so you wont think I'm ignoring you. Cy Sun Nov 30 13:49:43 -0800 2003 1392390 0 cy 9 1392420 Cy, we've looked through and see only one semi-lengthy reply offered by you in this thread, which we've linked below. Other than that (which we're not sure is the posting you're talking about), there was also one quite short one. Every one of us has had the experience of forgetting to push the final "are you sure" button after composing something, or had a browser crash and lose lots of writing before we could post it. We STRONGLY remind all users that a web browser makes a lousy word processor! If you're writing something ambitious and lengthy, do it in a different program, then paste it into your browser! Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/263609#1392389 Sun Nov 30 22:14:06 -0800 2003 1392413 2 The Chowhound Team 9 1392428 Cy -- Thanks for putting in the effort :) I hope your reply can somehow be retrieved :) Mon Dec 01 09:41:28 -0800 2003 1392413 0 cabrales 7 1392393 I haven't been to Norman's in Coral Gables in quite a while. Orlando was very good but having just opened and with him spending a lot of time there such would be the expectation. Still, this is not a French Laundry, Bouley, Le Bernardin type of place although the ice cream could challenge anything. But I like ice cream! I'm not a student of cuisine either. I simply spend much more money than I should on food and wine and, frankly, don't discriminate, moaning after particularly good ribs and rolling my eyes after some foie gras. But I do have favorite restaurants as well as the memories of some meals that were extraordinary. It's been my experience that usually the extraordinary experiences have been just that, involving more than just what I was served. Having said all this I have a tremendous respect for Cabby's incredible knowledge. Honestly, it probably either surpasses or equals anyone that I have even heard of, let alone know. Serious, Cabby. You are literally a scholar of several cuisines and I have the deepest respect for this. I still believe that there must be a vehicle beyond these boards that will allow you to share your knowledge with others. I do agree with Cy's comment about things changing. As well as the point about Michelin dropping a star. I'v talked about Violon d'Ingres in the past which is one of my favorite restaurants-as much because of Catherine, Christian Constant's wife who is a fantastic host. It lost a star after its second year and was demoted to one. I had five meals after it lost the star and four of them continued as exemplery. The fifth had two weaknesses as well as a waiter who was relatively inexperienced. Still, he was enthusiastic. I made a mistake and let this influence me, having stayed away for two years. Cy's point is well taken because I KNOW it's just as good. One evening and the loss of a star influenced me as it should not have. I should have known better. Still, I do know that in time it will change. He'll spend less time in the kitchen, different priorities, perhaps different values. Emeril's was once outstanding in New Orleans by any definition. After seven or eight years of the TV Food Network and restaurants all over the U. S. it has little in common with what he once started. Cy, if you've been to his new restaurant in Fort Lauderdale I am certain you are wondering what all the fuss is about. (I did believe that the old Mark's Place in N. Miami Beach ten to twelve years ago was excellent. NOT Mark's Las Olas which was several levels below.) But again, I have a great deal of respect for both of you. Some of the finest restaurants I've ever found have been from conversations like these. (Of course I still have the e-mail that I printed out eight months or so ago about your favorites in Barcelona.) But I still have favorites and am still interested in Cy's and several other's opinions. Curiously, I've been to Dal Pescatore and really enjoyed it. There is a real style and the owner is as fine of a host as I've encountered. He has a tremendous pride in his restaurant and in his wife's creativity and skill. There is also kind of a rustic appeal to it that I really enjoy (i.e. chicken feathers in the parking lot-a real plus and proof that chickens are raised on the premises!!) But I preferred Le Calandre which is now another three star. Part of this could also be expectation since I expected the world with Dal Pescatore (John Mariani's Esquire article touting it as the "best restaurant in the world") and with Le Calandre only a very good, perhaps "uneven" meal since I was told/cautioned that he was an Italian version of Jean Louis Palladin. When he was "on" he was incredible. But there were dishes that simply didn't work. What I found was very much "on." I do let cost influence me. 300 Euros prix fixe X two people + good bottle of wine + suppliment +$1.20 to the Euro makes a difference. This could be a thousand dollars for a meal for two. That's a helluva lot! At this price I need to have lost at the table whatever virginity I had left to consider it worth the investment! Again, however, this type of cost also influences my EXPECTATIONS. At this level there is absolutely no room for error. Frankly at half of this there is little if any room either. Thus, circuitously, if Dal Pescatore and Le Calandre are both about 125 Euros prix fixe for their tasting menus so much the better. If Gagnaire is 290 Euros (among others) I might feel a bit differently. Unless there are white truffles, foie gras, 40 year old Gold label balsamic or some fish flown in from Anarctica which couldn't be sourced locally, that's an awful, awful lot for a meal. Especially if I leave hungry. Anyway, just a factor that enters into my perception of a meal. Sat Nov 29 20:16:27 -0800 2003 1392389 0 Joe H. 8 1392398 "Unless there are white truffles, foie gras, 40 year old Gold label balsamic or some fish flown in from Anarctica which couldn't be sourced locally, that's an awful, awful lot for a meal." With all respect, I would disagree that the "exotic" sourcing or traditionally-high cost nature of ingredients is irrelevant to meal cost. At the level we are all hoping to dine at, what the restaurant is delivering is no longer predominantly adding different ingredients, and the quality of the outcome (i.e., the overall dish) is no longer merely a reflection of what ingredients are utilized. In fact, close sourcing might permit a better experiencing of the "terroir" of produce (yes, terroir) than "exotic" sourcing. An egg yolk perfectly incorporated into a dish can be as exciting as beluga caviar. A vegetable can be as glorious as lobster or foie. In my mind, it depends largely on in whose hands the products fall :) My expectations when I dine at restaurants that set to present themselves as haute cuisine restaurants do *not* depend on cost. Sat Nov 29 22:37:47 -0800 2003 1392393 0 cabrales 9 1392400 Cabby, if you fly to Paris and invest $1,000 in dinner for two and you are disappointed, for whatever reason, is your reaction any different than if you have walked down the street with a friend and picked up the check for a mediocre meal that cost , say $30.00? I agree with you about the close sourcing but this is not always possible. I still have not tasted a butter made in the U. S. that I enjoy as much as several that I have had in Europe. German white asparagus is much, much sweeter than that grown locally. Up until recently lump crab meat from the Chesapeake Bay was the finest in the world. If someone somewhere else on earth wants one of these three and makes the value judgent that even flown in they are superior to what is available locally then it will cost more. Perhaps a lot more. I realize that you are going to say that a restaurant should take advantage of its location, of the seasons and focus on this. But this is not always possible. Even then sometimes local ingredients are expensive. White truffles are far more expensive this year than any in recent memory. They are also, generally, not as good. I would also argue-in agreement with you-that walking into the old Guido near Alba in late October was mindnumbing, just being an incredible sensorial overload of the smell. Even outside it was there. That does influence my taste. But a risotto can be made here that is just as good as the risotto at Guido. I know because, forgive me, but I have made it. (It was a bitch carrying a small truffle but I did it!) As expensive as that truffle was in Alba, my guess is that it would have cost two and one half to three times as much here. Because of that I was able to make a great truffled risotto. I also once carried (on blue ice) gorgonzola au naturale from the city market in Bologna and fourteen hours after buying it, made the best risotto I've ever tasted in my life. In my kitchen. I can't buy that here. If I could it wouldn't be fresh. If I have it shipped from Italy it costs a LOT more. Still, that particular gorgonzola is the best I've ever had and this includes Mauri and a number of other brands. To make the best I had to use the best. And, of necessity, it cost more. Can you imagine what my expectations were with the first bite? For the labor, the effort, the travel and, yes, the cost? For me cost and I suppose effort definitely influence my perception of a meal. Sat Nov 29 23:21:59 -0800 2003 1392398 0 Joe H. 10 1392403 "Cabby, if you fly to Paris and invest $1,000 in dinner for two and you are disappointed, for whatever reason, is your reaction any different than if you have walked down the street with a friend and picked up the check for a mediocre meal that cost , say $30.00?" "Can you imagine what my expectations were with the first bite? For the labor, the effort, the travel and, yes, the cost? For me cost and I suppose effort definitely influence my perception of a meal." In response to Joe's comments above, obviously when I pay 30 dollars in the US (particularly given the "in the US" part), I don't expect haute cuisine. That's why I find the example unpersuasive. Does the corner restaurant charging 30 hold itself out as offering haute cuisine? I think not. So let's focus on restaurants that hold themselves out (whether appropriately or not) as offering haute cuisine. To me, very generally, it's not that important how much a restaurant costs. That's because EXTREMELY FEW restaurants offer cuisine that truly meets my subjective standards. I don't care how inexpensive a three-star is if it does not, in the long-term, meet my demands. I don't care if it's a really inexpensive meal as far as three-stars go, as one might find, say, in Spain. I don't care if it's very difficult to book. Bottom line -- if it ain't got the cuisine I like, it ain't gonna cut it :) Cost is irrelevant because almost every restaurant in the world does not offer cuisine that is very appealing. Restaurants that appeal to me over the long-run are very hard to come by, and therefore meals there are disproportionately appealing. I don't care what travel plans I've had to make, or what funds I've had to expend, to purchase a meal. That doesn't change my criteria for evaluating the meal. If it does, that would render the evaluation of cuisine subject to the vicissitudes (sp) of where I am located at any given point in time, which is not a particularly appealing basis on which to evaluate cuisine, no? :) Sun Nov 30 03:25:55 -0800 2003 1392400 0 cabrales 11 1392411 Strictly from the perspective of taste, etc. without any regard to price, by definition, your argument must be correct. However, I cannot factor out the cost or effort of something in my evaluation in the same way that I cannot eliminate considerations of ambience, attitude of the restaurant, etc. For myself, part of my perception of taste ARE other factors. This is why I say that the best meals that I've had were overall experiences, not just that which was put on a plate in front of me. To take this a bit further I immodestly believe that I make the best risotto I've ever tasted. If I serve it on a paper plate and eat it off of a tailgate before a football game it is not going to taste the same (although it is) if it is in a more appropriate environment. Foie gras wouldn't taste as good in this situation as it might in another. Conversely, bbq'd ribs in Alain Ducasse would not be nearly as good-for me-as in a dump known as Dreamland in Tuscaloosa. Price also matters in the same way. What I pay for something really does influence my perception of it. On the one hand I may say, yes, it's the best of .... that I've ever tasted-from the perspective of taste alone. Yet, would I feel that it was WORTH IT? Financially? Even, yes, calorically? The answer may very well be no. The problem then is that how can something which tastes the absolute best not be worth experiencing again considering other factors? Is it still then, the best? For me the answer is no. I am willing to spend a truly disproportionate amount of money on a meal because it is that important to me. At some point when I feel that I am beginning to subsidize the chef's next Bentley I draw the line. A friend of mine made several million dollars one year. He had an extraordinary meal in Moscow. He hadn't asked the cost of several specials and had ordered good but not first growth bordeaux. When he was presented the check it was for $2,000 for him and his wife. He said it was by far the best meal he has had in Russia. He's been back three times on business and hasn't gone back to that restaurant once. Sun Nov 30 11:57:19 -0800 2003 1392403 0 Joe H. 12 1392418 Sorry to interrupt, but philosophical discussions about what makes a meal "good" or "worth it" are off-topic for this board (which is reserved for discussion of food tips for places outside the US). Please continue the broader discussion on our Not About Food message board (where we handle "larger issues" that are tangential to food). Discussion there is very well read by chowhounds of all geographic regions, so you'll get more input into the discussion. Please, whoever continues over there, also post a quick "heads up" here to this thread so onlookers know to make the jump. And please, when a discussion digresses (as it often will), it would help a lot if regulars proactively jump the discussion to a more appropriate board. This way we can maintain the geographical focus for the majority of users who use Chowhound to find region-specific tips. Thanks! Sun Nov 30 18:34:54 -0800 2003 1392411 2 The Chowhound Team