263534 Thu Nov 13 14:09:51 -0800 2003 29 26 International 0 1391997 Will start with an executive summary for those in a rush, then go to expanded notes and finish with some random thoughts. Lots of good food in Florence! Thanks to all whose recommendations led us to it! 1. Executive Summary Il Ritrovo – very good food, nicely decorated (understated) room, good service. Highly recommended. Paoli – very good food, good service, centrally located. Recommended. Cibreo – very good food, limited menu, beautiful room, good service. Recommended. Taverna del Bronzino – divine food (my favorite in Florence), beautiful rooms, excellent service. Highly recommended. Trattoria Marione – good food, good value, crowded, hot, and undistinguished room, good if rushed service. Semi-recommended. Buca Lapi – excellent food, nice but funky room, good service. Recommended. Trattoria al Mangia (Sienna) – very good food, gorgeous view of Piazza del Campo from outside tables, good service. Recommended if in Sienna. 2. Expanded Dining Notes We rented an apartment in Florence, which meant that mostly we ate out at lunch and made dinner “at home”, allowing us to shop in the local markets, about which more in the Random Thoughts section. Il Ritrovo, via de’ Pucci 4/A, tel 055.281688. First lunch in Florence, based on (well-deserved) rave reviews from other Hounds. Two short blocks from the Duomo. Very nice understated décor in a medium-sized room. About half the tables were full, all Italians except for us. Menu in Italian with English translations. Very friendly and nice service – the waitress spoke little English so she sent the chef (who does speak English) out to answer any questions we might have and to take our order. We started by sharing the Verdure di Sapori antipasto which was a lovely vegetable assortment including wonderful stuffed mushrooms, sliced beets, eggplant in tomato sauce and more – four small plates in all. Then two of us had the tagliata – sliced rare grilled steak on a bed of rocket with shavings of parmaggiano – excellent! This was the first (but not last) time we noticed that the beef has so much more flavor than ours does – we decided due most likely to a more varied diet and no factory farming. The third had a delicious veal scallopini with white wine sauce which came with oven-roasted potatoes with rosemary. We also shared the fagioli all’uccelletto – white beans in tomato sauce and rosemary –excellent too. With a wonderful vino nobile de montepulciano, one large and one small mineral water and two espressos, total came to 99 euros (33 pp). Paoli, via dei Tavolini 12r, tel 055.216215. Near Orsanmichele. Open and crowded with Italians for Sunday lunch. Pretty if somewhat clichéd room with vaulted ceilings, frescoes and tiled floor. Menu in Italian but waiter spoke good English to answer our questions. I had a really excellent filletto al tartufo – steak swimming in truffle butter with shavings of truffles over the top, which came with a side of the butteriest mashed potatoes I’ve ever had. My mother had veal scallopini in a white wine sauce with asparagus and truffles. My father had grilled lamb chops with amazing homemade french fries. Everything was very good although mine was the best (IMHO). We also shared a side of very good spinach. With a large carafe of house red wine, large mineral water and two espressos it came to 60 euros (20 pp). We noted that both the antipasto trolley and the dessert trolley were very good-looking. Ristorante Cibreo, via A. Del Verrochio, 8r, tel 055.2341100. (Trattoria Cibreo is just around the corner at via de’ Macci, 122r.) Cibreo is quite a walk, and not a particularly attractive one, out of the historical center out the via Pietrapiana – if you’ve already walked a lot that day you might want to take a cab. The restaurant takes reservations but the trattoria does not. They share a kitchen and seem to have similar menus. We ate at the restaurant and it was truly an experience we would not have wanted to miss! There is no menu here – instead, a member of the staff sits down at your table and discusses what’s available while you enjoy a welcoming glass of delicious white wine. We ended up ordering one first and three mains but before any of that arrived, we were served an amazing variety of little starters (free although obviously accounted for in the price of the meal). These included tiny liver crostini, tiny bites of herb and cheese flan, prosciutto, a lovely spicy tomato aspic, tiny bits of trifle with herbs and olive oil, morsels of warmed robbiola cheese and delicious homemade potato rolls. Then came the potato-ricotto flan first, much enjoyed by all, which had a rich cheese flavor and was both creamy and light. Delicious pesto and pine nuts on the side so you could vary the taste of each bite. The best main course was the oddest sounding: the stuffed chicken neck. It was basically a very fine terrine (chicken and maybe veal?) stuffed inside the skin of a chicken neck and sliced, served with garlic mayonnaise. The other (which 2 of us had) was described as room-temperature meatloaf and was a very finely textured terrine or mousseline, probably mostly veal, with pistachios and served with homemade mayonnaise. Three sides arrived for us to share: cannelloni beans in olive oil and rosemary, tiny green beans with caramelized red onions and tomatoes, and “stewed potatoes” with lots of good flavorings. We only ordered one dessert – the flourless chocolate cake – but were given a second complementary one – the house cheesecake with bitter orange marmalade. Both delicious even for this non-dessert eater. Fabulous, warm, unfussy service throughout from 5 different staff members. Total with a bottle of good red (notes don’t say what), 2 large mineral waters and 3 espressos: 168 euros (56 pp). Taverna del Bronzino, via delle Ruote, 27r (corner of via San Zanobi), tel 055.495220 (closed Sundays). A bit out of the main tourist area but only 4 or 5 blocks walk NW of Galleria dell’Accademia. My favorite meal in Florence and one of my top two of the trip (the other being Orso 80 in Rome). Two beautiful rooms with whitewashed walls and vaulted ceilings, half full at lunch, with (as far as we could tell) all Italians. Both our waiters spoke good English and were really delightful, giving us lots of help and advice with the menu. We each had the quail starter and it was great: a boned quail on a plate with a few slices of tiny potato, a few fat asparagus, some tiny green beans, a baby leek – everything fresh, delicious, perfectly seasoned and cooked, with just the barest drizzle of wonderful olive oil. “Heaven on a plate” as my mother said. Then my father had the duck breast – the best I’ve ever tasted – and my mother had a timbale of pasta with several kinds of mushrooms, cream and cheese, topped with julienned vegetables and surrounded by what seemed an intense, velvety reduction of pureed mushrooms – absolutely delicious. I ordered less successfully, having the porcini risotto, which was delicious but not really in a different league from what I can make at home as the other two entrees certainly were. With a bottle of wine, one water and 3 espressos, 150 euros (50 pp). Cannot recommend this place highly enough. Trattoria Marione, via della Spada (a block or so west of via Tornabuoni). A crowded, noisy place with an equal number of locals and tourists. Nothing gracious about the place but the food was very good and the service, although extremely rushed, was very pleasant. I had pasta with possibly the best meat sauce I’ve ever had. My mother had the crespelle alla fiorentina (basically crepes with spinach and cheese), which were delicious. My father had a superb grilled veal chop. The green salad was fine though unspectacular. OK house red wine, full mineral water. Total: 30 euros (10 pp). Buca Lapi, via del Trebbio (corner of via Tornabuoni), tel 055.213768. Our one dinner out. Arrived at 7:15 without reservations and were told we could have a table but they needed it back by 9:15. Place filled up rapidly with a few tourists and lots of Italians. Barrel-vaulted ceilings and walls covered with travel and movie posters could have been tacky but somehow were not. Menus available in Italian or English. We shared two firsts: crostini with sausage and ricotta and fagiolini with ventresca di tonno (beans with tuna belly which melted in the mouth), both excellent. Then two of us had an excellent bistecca alla fiorentina and the other had cannelloni firoentina and we shared a really excellent side of spinach with olive oil and garlic. Service was excellent despite how busy it was. With a lovely vino nobile di montepulciano, large water and 2 espressos, 130 euros (43 pp). On the way out we were mesmerized watching dinners being prepared through the glass walls of the kitchen: sort of a choreographed chaos, very impressive. Trattoria al Mangia, Piazza del Campo (directly behind the fountain), Sienna. Unlike most places with a spectacular view, this one had really good food! One roasted rabbit with simply divine artichoke stuffing and a tiny carrot soufflé. One wonderful veal steak blanketed with creamy cheese and accompanied by delicious fat asparagus and souffleed potatoes. One fabulous tagliata di manzo (sliced, grilled steak) drizzled with olive oil and sprinkled with chopped fresh herbs and green peppercorns, with a timballo of radicchio. Lovely vino nobile di montepulciano, 2 bottles of mineral water, 2 espressos. 120 euros (40 pp). 3. Random Thoughts As noted above, we rented an apartment, something I highly recommend. I’ve done it a number of times in both Italy and France and it has always worked out well. You are then able to shop in the gorgeous local markets and cook that beautiful food, to say nothing of how relaxing it is to kick your shoes off at the end of the day and eat and drink at your own pace and without formality. Also, eating lunch out means you can always get a table even at the best places (although it’s a good idea to reserve for Sunday lunch). Although we went to the Central Market (Mercato Centrale) the first morning and one other time to do our shopping, we actually found that less than 50% of what we got there was really satisfactory and were happier shopping other places (the one exception being the one fresh pasta stand in the mercato, which had very good pasta). We really lucked out in that we were there the right weekend to go to the organic farmers market in Piazza Santo Spirito, which is held the 3rd Sunday each month. There we stocked up on really fabulous produce and gorgeous artisanal cheeses, as well as buying lots of presents (hand-made olive wood bowls and cutting boards, beautiful wooden toys, homemade pasta sauces, and so on.) Also, each neighborhood has a small corner store called a pizzecheria – ours on via della Spada had really great prosciutto di parma and some yummy prepared antipasti such as grilled zucchini and eggplant, marinated artichoke hearts and so on, as well as milk, coffee, olive oil, bread, juice and a few other staples. I ducked into a couple of similar stores as I walked around and they seemed to have much the same things – don’t know if the quality of prosciutto and antipasti in ours was the norm or above average. What I do know is that the second time I went into our pizzecheria they knew me and the third time they greeted me warmly. I also found that the cured meats (different prosciuttos, salamis and bacons) at Pegna on via dello Studio near the Duomo were superior to those we got from the Mercato Centrale. After shopping around I decided that the best produce (other than the farmers market) came from a small produce store on via Cerchi in the block south of via del Corso, next to the big FORNO sign (that place, by the way, had bad, fluffy bread). There is a trick to buying produce, I discovered. The shops in the central area seem to cater to tourists by having some really “pretty” stuff, as well as the local, often organic stuff which is not necessarily cosmetically appealing but has loads of flavor. I found that I did best by asking what’s the best (“il migliore”) or what’s local (“nostrale”) – they’d hold it up to see if I really wanted it – one tine the tiniest baby lettuces I’d ever seen, with mud clinging to their roots – and seemed happy when I took it. They never steered me wrong when I went this route. And that muddy baby lettuce, washed and spun, was the best lettuce we ever tasted! The other thing about buying produce is that you’re not allowed to pick it out yourself, you just have to tell them what you want and they pick it out – but they do so carefully and I was never given anything bruised or bad. Non-food random thoughts: Tipping. Our very nice waiter at Taverna del Bronzino told us that service is included every single time you eat out in Italy. He warned us that we might be told on occasion that is not, but that would only be by someone who wanted to rip us off for an additional tip. He said that at times people will leave a little extra even though service is included but that it is not necessary. We usually left a little extra but noticed that Italians often did not. Florence has brutal tiger mosquitoes that do not seem to be discouraged by North American deet-containing spray-on mosquito repellent. They do respond well to a little contraption you can buy at casalinghi or hardware store, called a Vape portatile, which is sort of a battery-operated diffuser of tiger mosquito-specific repellant. Very efficacious, as the packaging boasts. Sienna is a wonderful day trip out of Florence and actually merits a few days of its own. Buying tickets ahead of time for the Uffizzi and the Galleria dell’Accademia is essential. Go to www.tickitaly.com. The Rough Guide map was a wonderful investment, much better than the other two maps we had along. Thu Nov 13 14:09:51 -0800 2003 0 GretchenS 1 1392000 great report! - thanks for taking the time and for all of your good recommendations! I agree about the Rough Guide maps - they are definitely superior - I spent a ridiculous amount of time choosing a map for Venice last year - but comparing 4 or 5 different ones side by side, and actually looking for particular things on the map, theirs was way best. I even found their restaurants, noted on the map, to be good and up to date. Thu Nov 13 14:52:11 -0800 2003 1391997 0 jen kalb 2 1392005 Actually, I bought them on your recommendation here and I agree, they are the best! Thanks for the tip. Thu Nov 13 17:27:47 -0800 2003 1392000 0 GretchenS 3 1392009 wow. I hadnt imagined. Thanks for the confirmation re the map - sometimes I just think I am a nutcase in these things - but an accurate map is a godsend in these towns. My husband was semi- lost for an hour back near the Arsenale in Venice (an area he was somewhat familiar with) last winter - and failed to find his destination. He had the Green Guide but not the detailed map which shows all the tiny calle, deadends etc - it can make all the difference. thanks again for the great post! Thu Nov 13 17:53:12 -0800 2003 1392005 0 jen kalb 1 1392002 gretchen, thank you so much for the informative and thoughtful post. i'm quite torn as to where to go for our new year's, but w. these suggestions i think i can't go wrong! thanks! Thu Nov 13 16:10:54 -0800 2003 1391997 0 bhk 1 1392007 Dear Gretchen: Thanks for taking the time for posting these great reviews during your stay in Italy. We're going to Florence & Venice next June as part of a trip where we're renting a villa with 18 other friends outside Cortona for a week. Your posts have been copied and will be placed in the trip file. I'm sure we will visit some of them, especially Taverna del Bronzino! Mille grazie. Thu Nov 13 17:36:36 -0800 2003 1391997 0 Mel Carr 2 1392014 Forgive me but we did not have quite as good of luck with Taverna Del Branzino as you did. We went four years ago, the night after going to di Vinus which at the time had the best bisteca fiorentina I've ever had. Two years later di Vinus was sold, the menu changed and the former owner opened Parione behind the Excelsior with a different chef. And a different presentation for bisteca that had nothing in common with the previous. Several guides recommended Taverna as one of the better restaurant in Florence. I remember Gault Millau giving it 14 or 14.5 which was behind only Cibreo and EP. (By the way there is a superb pizzaria adjacent to Cibreo called Il Pizzaiola. It is cosidered by many to be the best in Florence and the virtual equal to Naples' best.) On the first night we had a memorable meal at di Vinus, the second we took at cab to Taverna. We liked the restaurant, it was more formal if you will. Service was superb. But the bisteca which was written about in every single review that I read of it (one called it the best in Florence, next to Sostanza which IS currently the best in the city) was truly disappointing. Just not a lot of flavor, nor was it anything like the 3" cut presented on top of arugula with juice and olive oil literally oozing out of it onto its wooden platter the night before. I don't remeber much of the rest of the meal but overall this was a fairly good restaurant, but not in league with a number of others. Our experience. By the way, Vescovino in Panzano has the best bisteca today I believe. Certainly, like the night at di Vinus, this is equal to or superior to Peter Luger's. Thu Nov 13 21:44:44 -0800 2003 1392007 0 Joe H. 3 1392025 Dear Joe: I appreciate your input. I know we won't miss Il Pizzaiola since my husband loves pizza. Did you go to Sostanza? Since we'll also be celebrating 15 years of wedded bliss next year, I'm wanting a very special night during our trip. I don't want something on the overly formal side, but prefer warm surroundings and fantatic food. Any advice? Thanks. Fri Nov 14 12:58:13 -0800 2003 1392014 0 Mel Carr 4 1392026 Gretchen's post is a really good one, we just had an underwhelming experience at Taverna (while virtually everyone else including Michelin, Gault-Millau, the Wine Spectator and others have loved it). I also am critical of so many tourists in Cibreo but DO feel that it is the best restaurant in Florence and despite my criticism we still go to it on every trip. Scroll down a bit to another series of posts about Florence and one of my several posts has links to Michelin, Veronelli (similar to Gault-Millau or Gambero Rosso) and a great link for gelato. Sostanza is the best bisteca fiorentina in Florence. It is recognized as such. If you go to Cibreo in the spring/summer you MUST reserve as far in advance as possible. Even two months if they will let you. Yes, it is THAT popular. Have a great anniversary! Fri Nov 14 13:25:36 -0800 2003 1392025 0 Joe H. 5 1392034 Thanks for the Florence review. I'll be there for 5 nights (5 dinners!!), 1 night in Sienna, and 5 nights in Umbria. I'll have to try Sostanza for the bisteca. Any thoughts on La Tenda Rossa? Fri Nov 14 17:51:40 -0800 2003 1392026 0 eater 6 1392037 Superb. Worth the two stars. Fri Nov 14 19:38:42 -0800 2003 1392034 0 Joe H. 7 1392043 great! i'd have to go. joe, thanks for your many recommendations. i remember you recommended maestro when i was in the Wash DC area. it was spectacular, worth a 2 michelin star as you said. Fri Nov 14 22:58:54 -0800 2003 1392037 0 eater 8 1392047 It's about two hours north of Firenze but the best restaurant in Italy is Le Calandre outside of Padua in Rubano. The link is below. It is somewhat similar to Maestro in style and creativity. The chef, Massimiliano, is 28 and the youngest three Michelin starred chef ever-in any country. This is also a meal that could be considered "reasonable." The prix fixe is 125 Euros for about ten or so courses including amuse, etc. with a wine list that is only 25% higher than what you will find in the Italian enotecas. They also have a half dozen or so rooms for about 125 to 150 Euros a night. My wife and I are actually building our December trip around it. If you go there is another restaurant that is nearby, Antica riseria Ferron, which is a restaurant at an ancient rice mill about 15 to 20 miles south of Verona. EVERY course is arborio that is grown there and processed the same way it was four or five centuries ago. Many consider this to be Ialy's finest arborio as well as the among the most creative presentations of it. The meal is something of a legend and in combination with Le Calandre, perhaps two of the best meals of anyone's lifetime. http://www.risoferron.com/ is the link to this restaurant. For what it's worth the restaurant that has the highest rating in Gambero Rosso with a 56 for food is also called Gambero Rosso. This is about a two hour drive west of Florence on the sea. The link to it in Michelin (two stars) is: http://www.viamichelin.com/viamichelin/gbr/dyn/controller/poiRestaurantDisplayOne;jsessionid=0000L5SYLRXBTWZZY02GIMD2NWY+v1mm2m4p?from=211&idx=0&id=IT00022419&strPK=IT00022419_RESGR_2003&productId=41102 Another short one! Not that I've ever been short of an opinion! Link: http://www.calandre.com/ Fri Nov 14 23:57:30 -0800 2003 1392043 0 Joe H. 9 1392048 I forgot! Sorry. Below is the link to Il Postale in Umbria. This is about 25 miles north of Perugia. We've actually driven from Florence south and east to Deruta then come back by Perugia for dinner at Il Postale and an hour or so back to Firenze. This is a great restaurant and if you are anywhere near it, I think you will love it. It is also easy to find, perhaps only one turn off of the autostrada and then a few miles north. And here is my problem: there are restaurants elsewhere in Italy such as Il Postale, Le Calandre, Gambero Rosso, the rice mill's ristoranti that I love so much. If I could just find one in Florence! The link to a Chowhound post of mine about Il Postale is below. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/262143#1385098 Sat Nov 15 00:02:57 -0800 2003 1392047 0 Joe H. 10 1392105 Fantastic! I haven't been given the exact address of the villa we're renting, but I know it must be extremely close to Il Postale from the description I have: "on the Tuscany/Umbria border, 5 mi. from Umbertide and 30 min. from Perugia". I'm assembling a great file on the input I'm receiving. Thanks again for all! Mon Nov 17 12:16:12 -0800 2003 1392048 0 Mel Carr 11 1392112 Umbertide is 13 miles (21 km) from Citta di Castello; my guess is that, generally, you're off of Route 416 five or six km back from the Autostrada. There is a large lake about 15km south of you that is a fairly large tourist area in the summer. I would also recommend sending away for the 2004 editions of Gambero Rosso's Ristoranti guide (just released)and the Slow Food guide. Both are going to be in Italian but GR has numerical ratings for many of their better restaurants and Slow Food would be indispensible for many of the small towns and villages that you may wander through. They'll have to be purchased through Italy and it takes about two weeks to receive them. Send them an e-mail first in English requesting them. They'll respond, in English, with the final price in Euros and shipping and when you give them your credit card # they'll ship them shortly. I have ordered through Gambero Rosso myself this way and have a friend who bought the Slow Food guide similarly. Amazon.com has the Gambero Rosso wine guide which is in English and is excellent. Good luck! If you try Il Postale please post on here your thoughts. Four or five different people have gone between Chowhound and another board since my original post and everyone has really, really enjoyed it. Also, you're going to be about 35 or so miles north of Deruta which is directly off of the Autostrada. This is a fascinating little 1000 year old town which many people build vacations around just to go shopping for hand painted Italian porcelain. If you go the best factory and largest showroom is at the bottom of the hill; but make sure you go up the hill and into the town itself. It is absolute fascinating! Mon Nov 17 14:19:01 -0800 2003 1392105 0 Joe H. 12 1392114 I would consider waiting til you get there to buy these guides - when I bought my gambero rosso through their website and paid the excessive express shipping charges to be sure I got the books in time I found, when I got to Italy, that they had shipped the old edition - the new book was in all the stores. Dont know that this would happen with slow food - but if you are starting in a destination such as Florence, Rome or Milan you shouldnt have a hard time picking up the book there. Mon Nov 17 14:58:02 -0800 2003 1392112 0 jen kalb 12 1392121 Shhhhhh, please. My husband has no idea that we are going to be so close to Deruta or that I'm even planning a shopping excursion. I started collecting Italian ceramics, incl 3 different sets of dinnerware, about 20 yrs. ago. (Which is somewhat insane since I live in L.A). HOWEVER, there is always room for more. Thanks for the heads up about the new release of Gambero Rosso - I'll order it after the first of the year. I'm hoping we won't be too close to that lake; our villa is on a walled 800 acre property so we should have peace & privacy (she hopes). I'm planning on keeping extensive notes on the entire trip so I can submit a long report upon our return. Based on all the help I'm receiving, I must share the benefits of this incredible site. Cheers. Mon Nov 17 17:00:26 -0800 2003 1392112 0 Mel Carr 13 1392123 The lake is charming, though. No tourists, either. At least no English speaking tourists. My wife and I were driving from Fierenze to Deruta and saw several small towns from the highway and, at some point, decided to turn off and explore. Absolutely fascinating! Well worth a day trip or so from your rental. A word about Deruta: I am personally seriously into ceramics, porcelain, etc. (Meissen, Herend, Lladro, several Italian ceramics-I've also been to most of their factories-which all have a "room."). If you special order it can take up to a YEAR! We bought chargers for our dining room that took this long. (We brought a plate, samples of linen, wall paper, even furniture for them to match the colors to.) What we were shipped was perfect! Really try not to miss this town. It's incredible! Just walking around the old town at the very top of the hill and wandering from store to store, even from enoteca to enoteca (!) is fascinating. (Umbrian wine is a relative bargain, by the way.) Have a great trip. Mon Nov 17 17:52:04 -0800 2003 1392121 0 Joe H. 13 1392129 When in deruta - there is a very special man doing incredibly beautiful ceramics, different than the lion's share of places. He's on the main drag, is much more expensive and is so worth it. Franco Mari. I've got plates, platters, bowls...wonderful. Have a great time. Mon Nov 17 23:25:18 -0800 2003 1392121 0 djk 14 1392136 my favorite ceramic bowl is from this man...i wholeheartedly second this recomendation. can't wait to go back in a few weeks. Tue Nov 18 10:12:51 -0800 2003 1392129 0 bhk 12 1392132 I'm going to try to stay at tiferno overnight just to experience il postale. I'm letting both amex and starwood work on my reservation for this saturday--wish me luck. one of the best cashmere sweaters is to found in the deruta area as well: brunello cuccinelli Tue Nov 18 00:51:16 -0800 2003 1392112 0 eater 12 1392133 I'm going to try to stay at tiferno overnight just to experience il postale. I'm letting both amex and starwood work on my reservation for this saturday--wish me luck. one of the best cashmere sweaters is to found in the deruta area as well: brunello cuccinelli Tue Nov 18 00:51:16 -0800 2003 1392112 0 eater 13 1392135 I didn't know about the source for cashmere. Last year I went to Loro Piana in the Mall and bought two mens' cashmere sweaters-heavy-for 225 Euros. European retail was 595 and American somewhere over a $1,000. Most importantly I really like them. The Mall starts their Xmas sales the first week of January. My wife and I have actually timed trips there to coincide with this sale. For what it's worth Brioni has an outlet, too. It's only one. It's on the coast about 150 miles south of Rimini. I haven't been but sooner or later I'll find an excuse to travel by it on business. Thanks. Tue Nov 18 07:30:44 -0800 2003 1392133 0 Joe H. 14 1392200 the village where brunello cucinelli's factory is located is in solomeo in casciano. he's actually reviving that entire village, sorta like what georges blanc did to vonnas where everyone is somehow connected/employed to the restaurant :-) Fri Nov 21 00:39:50 -0800 2003 1392135 0 eater 12 1392138 i'll also be in cortona for a while around x-mas and it sounds that il postale is right in the area, correct joe? is a reservation required or can one drop by? if a reservation is required, does it need to be way in advance or could we wait till we were actually at the villa to call (we have serveral days there)? your knowledge of tuscany is quite impressive! Tue Nov 18 10:16:14 -0800 2003 1392112 0 bhk 13 1392242 Thanks for the nice words. For Il Postale I would definitely reserve a week or so in advance. There is always the possibility of a last minute walk in because the restaurant has NOT been discovered by tourists. Still, especially for a Friday or Saturday night I would make a reservation. Sun Nov 23 18:58:38 -0800 2003 1392138 0 Joe H. 4 1392063 Sostanza is incredible; I ate dinner there 10 years ago and remember every moment and every mouthful. Don't miss it. I was alone, but was seated with a table of 8 Italian cardiologists and their wives, all of whom plied me with tidbits from their plates (WHAT! You didn't order the green beans? HERE~you must try! WHAT! You didn't know they had wild strawberries tonight? WAITER! Bring this woman a dish of strawberries! No no, you no pay! We pay!) It was the most fun I've ever had in a restaurant and all the food was beyond delicious. Last year I was in Florence again and was invited to dinner at Cibreo, which was as memorable as dinner at Sostanza. The soup was cream of yellow pepper, just the perfect essence of it. My dining companion had rabbit; I had a fish. The vegetables~incredible. And the desserts~*sigh* When I couldn't decide between the flourless chocolate cake and the cheesecake with bitter orange marmalade (mentioned in the original post), the oh-so-charming dessert waitress twinkled, "You cannot decide? We bring you half of both!" Now of course I want to go back to Florence. In time for dinner. Tonight. Sat Nov 15 16:43:02 -0800 2003 1392025 0 Cristina 5 1392068 Christina, I remember your post about the Italian cardiologists and their wives and the meal you had with them. Then, as now, you must be a very beautiful woman who is also extremely outgoing and a real pleasure to be around! Thanks again for the memory of your post, it was wonderful!! Sat Nov 15 20:00:02 -0800 2003 1392063 0 Joe H. 1 1392140 Gretchen - Thanks so much for the wonderful post, and the great opportunity to be reminded of our own Sept trip to Florence. We also loved Ritrovo, and had the same experience with the chef -- it's really a lovely touch that he wants to speak to his customers to make sure they're getting exactly what they want. One suggestion I would add to your list is Osteria Santo Spirito in the Oltarno -- since we were catching an early flight back to the States the next morning, we were delighted to find a place that served an early (for Italy) dinner, so we didn't miss that last night of fantastic Tuscan fare! Thanks again. Tue Nov 18 12:11:01 -0800 2003 1391997 0 J