262358 Sat Feb 08 01:37:38 -0800 2003 18 26 International 0 1386263 Taking the family to Europe and would like feedback (yes, I've checked out the archives). Really searching for extraordinary restaurants, be they hole in wall places or high end (however, I don't like to spend over $125 pp). I'm also a wine snob. Oh, and we'll have our 6 year old daughter in tow. However, remarkably, the nicer the restaurant, the better she behaves. ie. she sat through a threehour+ lunch at Steiereck last summer. Paris: Thought Taillevent was stuffy and dull, L'Astrance terrific (great value, too). Guy Savoy good, but way overpriced. Other recos, esp. bistros & new places. Three nights. Venice: Da Fiore good, but too $$$. Al Covo disappointing, also too many tourists (even for Venice :^)). Really enjoyed Alla Testiere and Vino al Gigio. Thinking about taking train/car rental to Le Calendre. Comments? We'll be in Venice 5 nights. Verona: Haven't been since honeymoon 8 years ago. Three nights. We'll be driving to Fiuggi along A1. Any spots for lunch? Aside from Autogrill, of course. Fiuggi: Staying at this spa, have no clue about are. Am willing to go into Rome one day. Have yet to eat great Roman meal. Naples: 5 nights. We'll have car, and would like to go to Capri or other Island. Also do Pompeii and Amalfi coast. Friend told me fancy restaurants there were overpriced and disappointing. Comments? Thanks for any tips. I'll post upon return. Mid-July. Jon Sat Feb 08 01:37:38 -0800 2003 0 Jon Leventhal 1 1386268 I'd go to Taira for seafood with a Japanese twist in Paris. The food at the San Pietro in Positano is good but not great and expensive. The view is exceptional. Sat Feb 08 11:36:10 -0800 2003 1386263 0 mc michael 1 1386270 Jon - Go to Trattoria Da Remigio in the Castello area of Venice - Absolutely wonderful and very reasonable. A true neighborhood restaurant - fantastic. You will love this place. Sat Feb 08 13:38:04 -0800 2003 1386263 0 Chuck 1 1386271 in paris ,under the circumstances i would recommend: -aux lyonnais.(2e). a new a.ducasse bistrot.excellent lyon style cooking,friendly, in vieux bistrot setting .good wine list and reasonable. -bastide d'odeon(6e).very good provencal cuisine.nice languedoc wine selection.resonable -le bristol(8e).probably one of the best restaurant in paris.excellent in all categories.decor, service and food.120 to 150 euro a person Sat Feb 08 13:49:30 -0800 2003 1386263 0 pierre 1 1386273 Antica pizzeria e frittatoria (sp?) in Naples. Best pizza I've ever ever ever had. Sat Feb 08 14:31:04 -0800 2003 1386263 0 Limster 1 1386274 You will not get out of Le Calandre for $125 pp. The prix fixe is around E 110 which at the current rate of exchange is around $120. Add in 75 or so for wine, a debateble supplimental tip and, realistically, you're looking at $350 +. I believe this is currently the best restaurant in Italy and one of the best in the world. My current favorite is El Raco de can Fabes but I have not been to El Bulli. Yet. Still Le Calandre is absolutely superb, inventive, original-I just cannot say enough about it. You should also seriously consider going to the rice mill restaurant that is between there and Verona. I have not been to it yet but I have trusted friends who have and they swear by the experience. Similar to the Furnace that I reported on below this is a unique restaurant for all of the world. The entire meal is comprised of courses featuring rice, particularly vialone nano. Although it has not received a lot of attention on this board it should not be missed. Verona is also more than a worthwhile visit especially the 2000 year old coliseum where they have operatic performances in season. Although I am not into Opera, in Verona, it is magical and an experience unlike any other, anywhere on earth. Do not leave Italy without going to Le Calandre. He is the youngest Michelin three sar chef ever. This restaurant may be the El Bulli of Italy so to speak just not quite so radical. And, sir, do not laugh at the AutoGrill. I'll put their "Olivia" with Calabrian hot pepper spread (purchased separately for about $5.00 a small jar and worth it!) up against most Philly and Atlantic City subs. (Not all, but most!) Rome: La Pergola or Agate e Romeo. For both reserva at least one month in advance for Friday or Saturday. The former will exceed your budget and the later will be right at it. By the way it sounds like you're doing the trip of a lifetime! I'm jealous! I go for long weekends or extra days on business trips. My wife and I will toast you tonight. Envious but appreciative of what you are about to experience especially with the memory of a honeymoon in Verona, one of the world's most romantic cities. I don't know if you walked around the Coliseum on your honeymoon but if you didn't, again, you really should this time. Now that I think of it I have a bottle of Amarone that I just brought back. We'll toast you with it tonight with other Chowhounds who are coming for dinner. Sat Feb 08 16:45:14 -0800 2003 1386263 0 JoeH. 2 1386277 I would like to post a systematic response on our recent experience in Venice - subject to the limitations that we were staying near Piazzale Roma this visit so tended to look for our dinners in that end of venice, had only a 5 day stay, my husband's gradually shrinking toleration for my searching for particular restaurants on a list instead of just choosing the nearest when he is hungry, and our liking for good deals and propensity for drinking the house wine rather than going for special bottles - for what it is worth these were our impressions of the scene, and strategies I would use if we went again. (1) Best single dish award goes to a killer dish of freshly made pasta with shrimp and zucchini at Osteria Alla Frasca, a slow-food noted spot near Fondamenta Nuove - 5176 Cannaregio on tiny Campiello della Carita - which is directly east of Campiello dalla Pieta, via calle dell'Acquavite - not too far from San Zanipolo or the Gesuiti. This was a luscious dish, even for a zucchini hater like me; I had a conversion experience. The restaurant also served an excellent dish of gnocchi in a ragu with bits of cured meat in it, as well as a dynamite array of perfectly grilled, moist fish. This last item, including whole branzino and bream (the first grilled with some rosemary), coda di rospo, scampi, and gamberoni was wonderful, and brought the cost of the whole meal (incl house wine, a salad and coffees) up to 100 euros. The restaurant offered complimentary limoncellos which followed the fish very well, and also informed us they had included no service charge, so the tip upped our total a bit. Probably the most memorable meal altogether of the visit, in addition to the best single dish, shared with a room full of venetians including blue collar workers (would be a good lunch place with a child). This was one place whether I wondered whether everybody paid the same price, but our meal was definitely worth it. (2) Best single forkful of food award -goes to Da Fiore, for the amuse bouche of a 3 or 4 fried schie (the wonderful small grey shrimp), a couple of slices of fried zucchini and a small pool of accompanying white polenta. Man, those folks can fry! Unfortunately rest of meal did not come up to this ititial tantalizing taste - correct but unexciting seafood risotto without even any visible shreds of seafood(50 euros for two, a mistake - how I regret having told my husband I wanted to have risotto before leaving venice! - there would have been better choices), the seafood crudo excellent, but with a big swathe of tuna, repetitive of the room temperature tuna (raw on the inside, cooked on the outside) he had as his secondo - the waiter said "perfect" after every choice we made- shouldnt he have suggested on a winter day something more varied? The cardoon and canoce soup (another 25 euros I had as my antipasto, garnished with a fried top of the mantis shrimp itself, was excellent, but my secondo, a big platter of small fried soft shell crabs with an elegant baby arugula and blood orange salad , was bland and monotonous after the first couple of crabs. I bitterly regretted not ordering the mixed seafood fry - it looked lovely. Their specialty dessert of lemon sorbet dusted with licorice was interesting and refreshing - but by that time we were sated. With the exception of a single italian group, the room was entirely filled with english speaking people (including a table of people from our downtown brooklyn neighborhood talking about prep schools and such). High service quality, very nice room (the Michelin star is warranted IMO). But what could have been a pleasant but pricy meal was ruined by the boldfaced lie of the otherwise friendly young hostess stating when asked that no, service charge is never included in Italy. With that exhibition of casual contempt we will likely not be back any time soon. (3) Best value and most convivial meal - Had at Osteria Santa Elena (also called Dal Pampo) was down at the end of Castello, past the Bienniale grounds. This was a sunday lunch, probably the best time to go out to eat to see Italians at their expansive best. We had been wandering in that end of Castello - started to go to Dai Tosi (a nearby good place, tried on our last trip) on Secco Marina, but unfortunately I stepped in dog doo right at their front door - we needed to find grass to clean off my hikers adequately, so we wound up a ways away, in Santa Elena (where there was a convenient small park and water spigot) instead. Dal Pampo is a bar with a small eating room on the side - on a small square, I am sure with outside tables in the summer. Totally non-touristic, (at least in the winter); family operation, no english spoken, but they do have a translated menu and are honest about the printed prices, and the dishes they offer are the ones in the menu. Our mixed cold seafood antipasto was fine; it and the large bowl of vongole veraci (clams) warm and and bathed in olive oil, parsley and delicious juices, was wonderful, 6 or 7 euros for each dish. Likewise our pastas, Jim's seafood lasagna and my spaghetti alla busara (it had a spicy tomato sauce with pieces of seafood) - we each liked the other's dish better but both were excellent. Total 30 euros or so with wine, servizio INCLUSO. The italian groups, including some big families in there with us were lots of fun to observe. The next table had a string of delicious looking dishes, including fried seafood and a great looking plate of mixed grilled fish. Leisurely, a couple hours of enjoyable eating. When we left we noticed a whole crowd of guys with close-cropped hair wearing orange and green colors (a soccer crowd, we thought) then a knot of cops in riot gear, a helicopter above. Then we heard pulsing music, and wondering, found the Venice soccer arena, drawing in what looked like the whole town for a sunny afternoon cheering the local heros. In retrospect, we were REALLY lucky to get our seat at Dal Pampo that day! Runners-up for conviviality were the aforementioned Dai Tosi and Osteria da Ponte (aka Alla Patatina), the latter really more of a bacaro, at 2742 Ponte San Polo in San Polo. At the latter, known for its roasted potatoes and bar snacks, my standout item was egg pasta with scallops and funghi porcini, yum - also good fish soup and excellent bacala mantecato (very rich creamed dried cod) though a whole plate for one personwas a bit much; I didnt think much of Jim's tough overgrilled seppie and polenta strips. But really, every good restaurant we have been in, with the exception of Da Fiore with its more formal manners was distinctly and hospitably warm, with plenty of interplay between staff and patrons. (4) Most hardwon meal - our final lunch, at Trattoria Anzolo Raffaele in the piazza of the far-western Dorsoduro church of the same name, which we had walked passed and found closed at least 4 times. It looked like it would never open again. We really liked this place and had a lovely meal (another 100 euros, because we each ordered a whole grilled fish) - it really is home cooking and the people are friendly (I did wonder here too about differential pricing - but the value by venice standards was there. High point in addition to our two different and pristine fishes) was my husband's lasagna (maybe she called it pastitsio) col pesce. Our dishes of cooked raddichio trevisano were also excellent. This place is still unspoiled and lightly patronized by tourists notwithstanding Fred Plotkins 1996 worries - GO, and also check out the Veroneses in San Sebastiano, nearby. (5) Biggest downer - Gam Gam, in the ghetto except for the bread, which is good. Rather downhill, since our last visit, three years ago, israeli plate pedestrian. Jim wondered why I took him there. Hardput to reply... (6) Biggest regrets - (a) not getting into Alla Carampane our first night and being unable to go back and try again thereafter - It looked really jolly, and I'd target this rather than Da Fiore next time in the San Polo area. (b) not going to L'Incontro (just off Campo San Margarita - Dorsoduro) our last night -its menu looked really interesting (Sardinian, meatbased and economical as well) or the nearby relatively recently opened Quattri Feri on Calle Lunga San Barnaba(c) poor ordering at Da Fiore, not getting the most out of the experience (d) Anice Stellato - a fusiony restaurant in Cannareggio, mentioned by both SlowFood, timeout and some slowtrav review being closed when we passed by, occasioning our GAM GAM debacle. (7) best meal altogether in Venice, still stacks up as our Christmas lunch at Corte Sconta three years ago, a great combination of civilized but informal, convivial dining and service and great, unusual seafood tastes. Price also rather reasonable (we had the grand seafood antipasto progression and two pastas, no secondi, as I recall, which certainly kept it down). Our meal at Alla Frasca this time nearly matched it in deliciousness, but the surroundings and circumstances were less felicitous and celebratory. (8) Best coffee bar - our fave was Tonolo, in Dorsoduro - great morning and afternoon pastries, but there were many places for this, they had great small puffs with zabaglione or whipped cream in the pm. (9) If I were going back tomorrow - I would closely clutch the Slow Food recommendations, which were highly reliable; right along with this, surprisingly, my TimeOut website print out (lots of overlap there), My plastic rough guide map, marked, surprisingly with most of the restaurants and bacari currently recommended in the above reliable guides (Venice really is a small pond), my printout of Mrs. Ruth Boleskine's restaurant reviews on the "slowtrav" website (mostly in the San Polo-San Croce-Dorsoduro area) which really covered most of the restaurants in that area, very reliably, and of course some chowhound recs. I had copies of Gambero Rosso pages, but they proved less useful. I would seek out schie, cannochie, scampi (surprisingly, a clawed creature more like a small lobster than the shrimp I expected, granseola (granchio-crab) the various scallops and other seafood treasures of the area even more avidly. I would seek out reservations if I want to eat out on a Saturday night. I would reserve if I wanted to have dinner at Carampane or one of the "top spots"- Alla Testiere, da Remigio, Fiaschetteria Toscana, etc. Id plan carefully to take account that many many places are closed Monday and particularly Sunday night (very dead) Children would be fine in all of the Venetian restaurants we have visited, except Da Fiore - no reason to take a child there, and I dont think it would be appreciated by the other patrons seeking peak dining experiences (staff would have no problem). Get the weekly family ticket for all the boats - it will simplify life massively and is rather a bargain. Sat Feb 08 21:10:09 -0800 2003 1386274 0 jen kalb 3 1386281 Thank you very much for taking the time and effort for such an interesting and informative post. Sat Feb 08 23:08:05 -0800 2003 1386277 0 Joe H. 3 1386283 Thanks for the great post. We actually took our daughter to Da Fiore a couple years back (lunch, however) and there were quite a few other children. A friend whose tastes I admire said the best meal he had on his honeymoon was at Da Ivo. Any comments on this place. We were going to go last visit, but decided not to at the last minute (literally, while reading the menu in the window). It was really $$$ (over 40e for entrees), + service charge of 12%. And it looked fairly formal. Jon Sun Feb 09 00:07:02 -0800 2003 1386277 0 Jon Leventhal 4 1386900 I realize I am late to this thread but we ate ate DaIvo this past Christmas day for dinner. It was pricey but worth every euro. The schie over polenta was excellent, bringing out very strong flavors from those little lagoon shrimp. We split a dinner for two of San Pietro (John Dory) with potatoes and olives. Very Austrian preparation. Staff was very attentive. The feeling of the place was very relaxed though it was elegant. I would encourage you to try it for a special meal on your next trip. Sat Mar 08 16:09:15 -0800 2003 1386283 0 StephenB 3 1386291 Fabulous post...it goes right into my Venice files. Thanks. >>Most hardwon meal - our final lunch, at Trattoria Anzolo Rafaelle<< On our last trip to Venice, we stayed in an apartment in the Campo Angelo Raffaele right across from the Trattoria Anzolo Raffaele. We had our first lunch there....the unorthodox but delicious spaghetti alle vongole verace..and a simple piece of fish. We were the last customers and enjoyed the quiet of the campo and the warmth of the waitress. We returned for dinner on a Saturday night and the joint was jumping...a large party of locals were celebrating something and the platters of food (including huge oysters on the half shell) looked amazing. We would have given anything to be invited to their feast. Our meal was also good, but marred by inattentive service and my dish of lasagna col pesce, which tasted as if it had come out of a microwave. Our Venetian friends were very surprised that we knew about the place...it is a place they try and keep to themselves and I guess Plotkin broke the code. Jim Zurer Washington DC Sun Feb 09 13:29:14 -0800 2003 1386277 0 Jim Zurer 3 1387000 Jen, my wife and I are returning to Venice in mid December. Assuming they are open we'll go to Osteria Alla Frasca, Corte Sconta and Alla Carampane, skipping da Fiore which we've been to five or six times and with an expected conversion of $1.17 to the Euro is simply not worth $300-350. We'll probably go back to Al Covo for risotto and fritto misto which is superb along with the Theatro Pizzaria across from the old Opera house which is a very good pizza from a wood burning oven (not equal to Il Pizzaiola in Florence however, a personal favorite). I want to try new places this time and thank you for your recommendations from February. If you ever find yourself near Genoa try Baldin and it's worth going well out of your way to go to La Fournace about 40 miles west along the coast. I'll also find a way to return to Le Calandre in Rubano along with a restaurant in Verona that we walked by two years ago and they had a 20 foot tall "Christmas Tree" made exclusively with empty wine bottles hanging on a wire frame in the shape of a tree. They had strung lights around it and there were snow flurries when we saw it. Incredible! We had just come back from a very disappointing meal at the two star Il Desco and the imagination of whoever had created this "tree" just totally captured us. I walked into the restaurant which was in a little court on the same street as the Due Torri about four or five blocks back towards the coliseum. The interior was warm, crowded and "sounded" mostly Italian if not all Italian. Jen, this is the type of place that I HAVE to go back to. I don't remember it's name but if it's still there I'll have a story for this board. Thanks, again. Thu Oct 02 10:53:40 -0700 2003 1386277 0 Joe H. 4 1387001 Alla Frasca is really tiny and quite informal - they have a few seats inside near the bar, and then a plastic-covered greenhousy outdoor area with long tables in their tiny piazza where the lunchers seemed to be sitting - we were there are on a warmish sunny day in late January and were toasty, but we wondered how they would do if it were really cold. I imagine it feels more like a bacaro at night. Thu Oct 02 13:45:41 -0700 2003 1387000 0 jen kalb 4 1387002 my fave in verona is Tratt. tre marchetti, next to the Arena Thu Oct 02 16:02:38 -0700 2003 1387000 0 doc 2 1386282 Thanks for the reco on Le Calandre...on the website (english) the menu doesn't appear, however it does in Italian where it posts the prices. Also, there seem to be a couple other restaurants (more casual) linked on the website. Comments? As for the Autogrill, I wasn't knocking it at all. In fact, last year we went actually ate there in the city of Milan and looked forward to our meals off the Autostrada. Truly one of the culinary treasures of Italy! Jon Sat Feb 08 23:15:08 -0800 2003 1386274 0 Jon Leventhal 1 1386275 Highly recommend pizzeria e ristorante Port'Alba in Naples. Excellent pizza but also very good sea food specialties. Mimi alla Ferrovia is still excellent. Don't miss their simple pasta e ceci (soupy chickpeas with squares of pasta) or anything with clams. Food in the Amalfi coast is hit or miss. Esmeraldino in Amalfi itself is a one dish wonder. They do a thick pasta called scialiatelle with seafood that is superb but everythings is just ok. I have had two excellent meals and one mediocre meal at Don Alfonso and I am not inclined to go back. I am losing my taste for Michelin stared restaurants in Italy. I have been disapointed with Le Calendre, Enoteca Pinchiorri, La Tenda Rossa, Agata e Romeo, Bitone, Battibeco (sp?), and numerous others. I travel to Italy at least once per year and during my last visit this past November I decided to stick to simpler trattorie and osterie using the slow food guide and had some of the best food I have ever had in Italy for much less money. Many of these trattorie have pretty deep wine cellars so you are not sacrificing much except a stiff tab by avoiding the Michelin stared restaurants. I particulary enjoyed the fact that these smaller restaurants featured producers that are highly tauted by gambero rosso but unkown to Robert Parker which meant wines that showcased the soil of the local area. Sat Feb 08 17:16:10 -0800 2003 1386263 0 vlibin 1 1386276 Jon, My wife and I were just in Verona and Venice with friends and ate very well. I will post in greater detail soon. Venice: very good meals at Fiaschetteria Toscana and Acqua Pazza. Good wine lists at both places. The latter also has a cheaper cousin nearby on the Campo Santo Stefano - I forget the name but you can't miss it. Acqua Pazza was a remarkably good approximation of an Amalfi coast restaurant. Since you are going for the real thing, you can probably take a miss. Da Fiore was closed, but on a very rainy day we ducked in to the Trattoria Da Fiore, just off the Campo Santo Stefano. I'm not sure if there is any relation, or if it is simply a case of trademark infringement, but the trattoria was quite good, and very reasonable. We had absolutely delicious spagahetti alle vongole veraci with broccoli. The addition of broccoli was new to me, but it was very good. Verona: excellent meals at Taverna di Via Stella and La Stueta (near the Roman theater). A mediocre meal at La Greppia - avoid at all costs. We had perhaps the best meal of the trip between Venice and Verona at Al Mulin Vecio in Calgogno, just outside Vicenza. This was recommended by Helen on this board, and I encourage you to make the detour. In Vicenza itself, Cinzia e Valentino is supposed to be excellent - it was closed when we were there. Lunch btw Verona and Fiuggi: I agree with Joe H that the Autogrill sandwiches are a treat. If you want to stop for a longer meal, Vissani in Baschi (near Orvieto) is very well regarded and was superb when I last ate there (about 5 years ago). Fiuggi: go to Le Colline Ciociare in Acuto, just outside Fiuggi. Great restaurant. While in Acuto, make sure to the bakery in the main square. The "filone" bread is delicious. If you are prepared to head back towards Rome, go to the castelli romani - Frascati and Grotaferrata - instead. I have posted about them before and won't belabor the point here, but there is much good food to be eaten there. Amalfi Coast: I've had only good meals here. Favorites include Acqua Pazza in Cetara, Lido Azzurro in Amalfi, and A Paranza in Atrani. I vote "yes" to a meal at Don Alfonso. My last meal there was great. In Capri, if you have nice weather, have lunch at Luigi ai Faraglioni. The setting alone is worth it, and the food is very good, too. Have a great time! Sat Feb 08 17:42:17 -0800 2003 1386263 0 Jeremy M 2 1386284 I'd second recommendations on the Amalfi coast for A Paranza &Aqua Pazza.I also liked Eolo in Amalfi.There's a restaurant in Pompeii,Il Principe,that is serving ancient Roman food-I've never been,but it sounds interesting. Sun Feb 09 04:59:53 -0800 2003 1386276 0 M.K. 1 1386286 I am posting a link that I have posted before to some reviews on the Dine-Online UK website archive for the Naples-Amalfi Coast area. I myself would check out some of these reccs if I got in the area; I Curti and some of the others are also listed in other guides. The website also carries a current Amalfi coast review by this guy. Link: http://dine-online.co.uk/naplemap.htm Sun Feb 09 07:44:05 -0800 2003 1386263 0 jen kalb