Gelato in Florence--a new champion!

[Burke and Wells]

[Hi Hounds! There are a couple of threads about gelato on this board. This older one: http://www.chowhound.com/boards/intl/messages/11194.html and a newer one, just a bit below: http://www.chowhound.com/boards/intl/messages/16244.html Since I don't know where to put this, I thought it couldn't hurt to start a new thread. Enjoy!
]
They say the best Gelato in Florence is a place called Vivoli, famous for almost a century as the freshest, most delicious, and most star-studded gelateria in Tuscany. Movie legends regularly drop in for cones.

After a month in Florence, Burke and I had come to the conclusion that, great as Vivoli is, it can't match Berthillon, the stupendous ice cream of Paris. Vivoli was good, darn good, but they had some weak flavors, and others seemed workmanlike. The bored attitude of the tourist spot had pervaded the service, which was another hit against them.

Further research and chatting with locals revealed a nasty current: Vivoli has gone downhill. "Oh, it's not like it was in the 1950s, when I ate there with my father," one local told us. Another, "Ten years ago, they were the best, but now all the tourists know it, the quality has suffered." We were surprised--if the delicious gelato we'd had at Vivoli was "low quality," what was the place like in its prime? And it was a tad expensive, too. Not terrible, but high. Justifyable for that quality, we assumed, and rightly.

Finally, dinner at a wonderful restaurant here, Oliviero's, lasted well into a rainy evening, and we made friends with the staff. We mentioned gelato, and they all said "Oh yes, everyone goes to Vivoli." Everyone goes? I heard something unspoken hidden beneath those words. "So, if everyone goes there, is there somewhere better they don't know about?" Exchanged glances, secretive smiles, and the truth came out. "Oh yes, there is better. There's the place the Florentines go. The REAL best gelato in the city."

We had to know. They told us. It was far, far from the tourist district. "You can't walk there, too far to walk," they said. Beyond the railroad tracks. The #7 and #1 bus lines go to it, but that's all, unless you have a car and are willing to risk these horrific streets, or you are a champion urban walker.

We had been sampling gelato places all over the city, but Vivoli was still the clear winner. Today is our last day in Florence, so we said, "We can't leave Florence without following up that tip. Let's be true Chowhounds and just GO, in the morning, for a gelato breakfast, cab up to the place, try the yummies, cab back and write it up." A seven euro cab fare later we were in the Piazza delle Cure.

Since we had empty stomachs, we were relieved to see sandwiches. We had a couple of pannini--unexpectedly, these were the best pannini we'd had in Italy to date! Mine was mushroom and lettuce, Burke's was hard-boiled egg, ham and a kind of nut paste. Fresh, tasty, flavorful, a total surprise.

But we were there for the gelato. There were 40 flavors, and we tried 35 of them. Yes, in one hour we ploughed through 35 flavors, served up in seven extremely small cups each with five tiny samples. Between flavors we refreshed our palates with neutral biscuits and spring water. It was an adventure, especially for a place with no chairs or tables.

This is the first ice cream [note, we're not really making a distinction between gelato and ice cream, it's merely a question of flavor and texture and experience] we've had that gives Berthillon in Paris a run for its money. Berthillon still holds the title for fruit- and herb-based sorbets and ices. Great as these were, Berthillon had a better grasp of mint, citrus, berry and banana, as well as the fruit we call cocoanut. Even so, this morning's cream and orange gelato was like a perfect, soft little creamsicle (you remember those), and the strawberry had a fabulous Italian tinge to it, impossible to describe accurately.

But the nut-flavored ice creams blew the doors of Berthillon. I honestly never thought I'd find a scoop of anything frozen that would have me typing such a sentence, but there it is, and Burke agreed. We tried a hazelnut gelato that sang of toasted filberts. The TWO kinds of pistachio (Italian and Sicilian) were an education in comparative flavors. The chocolate with cracked nuts was as warming as ice cream can be. The walnut truly had that walnut quality, a kind of graininess, very very pleasant.

The off flavors were even better. Do NOT miss the riso. I never realized rice could have a flavor that intense in a dessert. Rice pudding aspires to have the depth of this riso gelato. The yogurt was a surprise too. It tasted like yogurt-flavored gelato, truly. Fine yogurt, living, real. There were four different kinds of cream-flavored gelati, all highlighting the sweetness and natural flavor of milk and cream. It was dairy heaven, such subtle differences!

After 35 flavors, we feel we can say we've truly tasted the breadth of this gelateria's art, and after weeks sampling all Florence could offer, we hereby delcare it mind-expanding, fabulous, and yes, the best. And the total cost of seven servings of ice cream, two spring waters, biscuits, two pannini and an (adequate) espresso: 12.85 Euro! Perhaps this is what Vivoli was like in the 1950s?

So by all means go to Vivoli, it's truly wonderful gelato! But if it falls down, or if you find yourself saying, "Delicious, but is there more?" take the time to find our discovery. And it is a discovery: there are 881 hits on a search of Chowhound.com for "gelato." There are no results for:

Cavini
Piazza delle Cure, 19-23 r
50133 FIRENZE
tel. 587489

a Burke and Wells review

Link: http://www.burkeandwells.com

[Marty L.]

What were the five flavors that you didn't try -- and what's your excuse for excluding them? (And to think that you call yourselves true chowhounds -- only 35 of 40 before lunch!)

;-)

Great, mouth-watering report, as usual. A real keeper. Thanks.

[Burke and Wells]

Not only that, we didn't try any of the semifreddo! They had a dozen semifreddo flavors, but we had to draw the line. So much ice cream, on so cold a day!

The five we left out were variants of flavors we'd already tried. The orange chocolate, say, or the hazelnut with cocoa. There was no point, and even with out best efforts, our palates were getting tiiiiiiiiiiired.

Thanks, glad you liked it. It was what we'd hoped gelato would be!

Link: http://www.burkeandwells.com

[Joe H.]

The February 28th, 1995 issue of the Wine Spectator has a major six page photo article, "A Magic Spoonful," on finding the best gelato in Florence. Like yourselves they went in search of the best ice cream/gelato stopping at every place they could find and were referred to. They started at Vivoli (which they rated a 90) and were told by locals "that it's not what it used to be." They worked their way through Gelateria Pomposi, Bottega del Gelato, Gelateria dei Neri, Bar Perseo, even Haagen Dazs before finding what they thought was their best: Badiani which is described as out near the sports stadium miles from the nearest tourist destination. They also singled out a particular flavor as the "insider's flavor of the year," buontalenti. They describe it as sort of eggy, creamy, slightly floral and utterly beguiling." Their score for Badiani was 96.

I have no idea if Badiani is still open or if your find was open in '96. But I'll be back in Florence in three weeks and will find both. I agree with you about Berthillion for their chocolate ice cream but overall I prefer both Graeter's in Cincinnati and Kopp's 16 % butterfat frozen custard in Milwaukee for ice cream of any style. For chocolate fudge sauce of any kind I believe that Berthillion's must take a back seat to Graeter's "Swiss Fudge" which is really totally different. Graeter's also makes their own chocolate and fudge and they mix homemade chocolate fudge with pasteruized heavy cream, whipping them together for a light fudge sauce that is the best I have ever had. Then they top this with chopped almonds. I was actually disappointed the first time I had Vivoli, and I tried five or six flavors to do it justice.

If you are still in Florence see if you can find Badiani at Viale dei Mille, 20r. No phone number is given.

Good luck.

[Burke and Wells]

What a great tip! But we leave tomorrow morning, early. Tonight is devoted to packing. I fear we can't try any new places. See, a month in Florence isn't long enough, we should have tried for two!

Thanks, and please do check out these places on your trip here. Don't forget to post here what you find. If Cavini was so many leagues better than Vivoli, perhaps Badiana is leagues higher still. Love to find out.

Peter

Link: http://www.burkeandwells.com

[christinet]

Have followed your travel journals and food adventures, where are you headed next? If home, would love to hear your views on Bay Area/Silicon Valley scene---such as it is these days!!

[Burke and Wells]

Need to mention about your other points:

We tried to limit our survey to the icecream/gelato/semifreddo itself. We tend to rate the nuts, fudge, sauce, etc., separately. But we've never tried ANY of the ones you mention, so now they're on our list. The Graeter's especially sounds intriguing.

Personally--and let me stress this is a personal quirk, not even Burke shares it--I prefer lower butterfat in my ice cream. I know the frozen custards and superpremiums can really get up there, 16% as you said, but I find I miss the air when that happens. Air and ice crystals are so important! Don't get me wrong, I want my air in proportion, not some awful supermarket overpumped money-saving thing, but I fear that the race for higher butterfat can come at a cost.

Peter

Link: http://www.burkeandwells.com

[Joe H.]

Frozen custard tens to be about ten per cent butter fat because of low overrun, little air. Years ago there were ElectroFreeze machines which yield frozen custards in slabs that rolled down long chutes into a freezer where it was literally scooped onto cones. These machines disappeared for the most part in the early '60's and there are just a handful of places around America that still have them, borrowing and cannibalizing parts from other machines to keep them running. But most of America's legendary frozen custard parlors use them including Ted Drewes in St. Louis, Abbott's in Rochester and Kopp's in Milwaukee. A couple of years ago a new company started making a similar machine producing a similar rich, intense, custarrd that had little air but, still, was only 10% butter fat. (This cannot be compared to ten per cent butter fat ice cream because of the issue of texture and consistency.) Having said all this Kopp's is 16% butterfat with the same low overrun; it is very heavy in weight but incredibly intense and creamy. Although Graeter's base is 19 or 20% butterfat I actually believe that Kopp's, because of how it is made, tastes richer and creamier.
I don't remember Bertillion being particularly heavy with butterfat. I do remember very intense dark chocolate that was extremely expensive. Still it's probably the best dark chocolate that I've had anywhere.
If you haen't had dinner yet tonight (7:40 your time) and your close to Parione which is directly behind the Excelsior on a street that angles in also called Parione, consider dinner there. The owner's name is Alberto and he is extremely passionate about food and wine. He's not mentioned in many, if any, travel books but he receives recommendations from the concierges at the Grand and Excelsior. His food is superb and relatively inexpensive. Phenominal bisteca, the best minestrone that I have ever had (actually lumps four inches high on the plate it is filled with so many stewed vegetables), superb pasta with white truffle shavings (for $25 the best pasta dish of a recent trip which included the two star Aimo e Nadia in Milan and another one star. But most importantly, like some of the people you have met, he is so outgoing and so passionate aboout his restaurant and his food.
Last, when you are driving on the Autostrada, DON'T LEAVE ITALY WITHOUT STOPPING AND BUYING AT LEAST ONE JAR OF CALABRIAN HOT PEPPERS. They are absolutely the best hot peppers on earth. And priced approrpiately, at 10.50 Euros per small jar. But totally distinctive flavor. Outstanding. Also Autogrill sells jars of chopped Calabrian peppers which are just delicious when spread on the sandwich known as "oliva." Alan Richman spent 500 words writing about his obsession with these in a recent issue of GQ.
Calabrian Hot peppers.

[dixieday]

Yes, I was in Florence a month ago, and a friend who is writing a food guide to the city took us out there. The Buontalenti flavor (supposedly named after the guy who invented gelato, I think) tasted like creme brulee to me--rich, custardy, with a burnt-sugar edge of caramel. The other flavors were very good too. It is a long bus ride away from the center of town.

[Joe H.]

Thanks, Dixieday. I'll have a car and we'll visit both. I probably like ice cream/gelato as much as anyone on any of these boards!

[Smokey]

I love it! Thanks so much for such diligent 'hounding, and posting about it!

Smokey

[Jon Leventhal]

Agree that Vivoli has gone downhill...and a bit of surly service as well.

I had pretty tasty gelato at Perche No. You try that place?

Jon

[Burke and Wells]

Yep! It was darn tasty, we were quite happy there. The tiramisu at Vivoli was stronger than Perch No, however, and a couple of other things made us feel Vivoli was still the place to beat. Now Cavini has them all beat--all that we tried, that is. Who know what's out there waiting to be discovered? And what about other cities besides Florence?

So much ice cream, so little time...

Link: http://www.burkeandwells.com

[Jeremy M]

Since you are in Italy, and you mention "other cities," and you have shown your willingness to get outside the city center for a good ice cream, I am going to put in another plug for my favorite gelateria in Rome. It's called Gelateria Duse and is located on Via Eleonora Duse, in Parioli, between Pzza Ungheria and Pzza delle Muse. This is a little place on a narrow residential street, but if you go there after dinner you will find it teeming with Romans pouring out into the street. The ciocolato fondente is fantastic, rich as can be, and the various chocolate/nut combinations (baci, nocciola, gianduia, etc) are also delicious. For my money, the fruit flavors - raspberry, boisenberry, bluberry, strawberry, mandarin, melon, etc - are the best in the city.

If you make it to the Borghese Gallery, it is about another 20-30 minutes north on foot. Otherwise, the #4 bus from Termini stops about a block away, or you can take a variety of buses (3, 52, 53, 910) or trams (19, 30) to Pzza Ungheria and walk north for about 4 blocks, turning left just after you pass the Carabineri barracks.

If you make it up there, you will also find a very good gelateria on the corner across from the carabinieri and a superb place for lemon and coffee granite in Pzza delle Muse.

[vlibin]

Yup, Vivoli went down a long time ago. Curious, did you try Badiani? It has always been my favorite. Their specialty is the Buontalenti flavor.

Thanks for the rec. I think but am not certain that I tried it last year. I had too much wine with dinner so I just remember my friends dragging me in their car to a place a bit out of the way for excellent gelato.

[Chuck]

Stop with the gellato alreqady! There is no bad gellato in Italy - some are just more terrific than others!

Why don't you two get over to La Posta for the best meal you're going to have in Florence!

[christinet]

THANKS for the great job, you guys are the best!! I recall some years ago, for about a minute, Vivoli opened a "branch" in the Cannery at Fisherman's Wharf here in San Francisco and the rice pudding flavor was just the best thing I'd ever tasted---I went back daily until they closed. So, on every trip to Florence I've rushed there to taste again and they always seem to be out---so I now have another option. THANKS!!!