261263 Mon Apr 22 12:38:21 -0700 2002 16 26 International 0 1380646 Going to Europe this summer, and am overwhelmed by the amount of guidebooks available. While Michelin is terrific, it has no descriptions to speak of. What guidebooks do you think are the best in terms of food ratings? Fodors, Frommers, Time Out, Knopf, DK etc. Thanks. Jon PS. Going to Italy & Austria (michelin has no Austria guide) Mon Apr 22 12:38:21 -0700 2002 0 Jon Leventhal 1 1380650 Jon, Neither. Unless you are just looking for general, last years news stuff. You might check Fodors.com. You can download their stuff if you want. For Italy, it's Italy for the Gourmet Traveler by Fred Plotkin. (You can order it thru the board and Amazon which will kick back something to Chowhound.) Austria is a tougher nut to crack. Possibly one of Rick Steves' books, see RickSteves.com. Too bad Gayot/Gault Millau haven't done these countries. They are probably the most opinionated. Maybe this board is best for Austria. Mon Apr 22 13:34:28 -0700 2002 1380646 0 mc michael 2 1380660 There is a Gault Millau 2002 for Austria. Of course it is in German, but you could easily read their number scores and their lists ;-) Try their website: www.gaultmillau.co.at Try also the Europe 2002 guide from Zagat ! OTOH Austria is NOT a tough nut to crack, there are inexpensive gourmet places all over the country, but usually slightly hidden away from the tourists .. Tue Apr 23 05:44:16 -0700 2002 1380650 0 Michael 3 1380668 Just tried www.gaultmillau.co.at. Cool. Now, if I only read German. In reviewing the Wien ratings, I note Steirereck is highest rated. This is probably a generally held opinion. OTOH, I see Palais Schwarzenberg is lesser rated. This is correct on the food alone altho the setting is amazing. The time I was there several years ago, there was a performance on the lawn outside the windows of the eating area. A sort of ballet on the grass. Sounds crazy but it actually worked and meshed with the food, the ambience, etc. Tue Apr 23 11:33:53 -0700 2002 1380660 0 mc michael 4 1380703 Schwarzenberg is really more spectacular than Steirereck, if you consider the ambiente and not the food. But the owner of Steirereck just announced that they would now take over the venerable Meierei at the Stadtpark, a really interesting location very close to the Vienna Hilton. Anyone interested in authentic Austrian cuisine in a spectacular as well as romatic setting should also definitely go for a weekend at the Steirereck at Pass Pogusch, a remote mountain pass in Styria. Open only during the summer. Book a table at least three months in advance ! For the affluent: Helicopter flights from Vienna are avaiable ;-) Link: http://www.steirereck.at/pages/index_e.html Wed Apr 24 02:57:19 -0700 2002 1380668 0 Michael 5 1380707 Perhaps you are best served(or should I say fed) by doing these two things. Go into a cafe in which you feel appropriately cool and ask people where they eat. Second, get the local city magazine. My experience in Germanic countries with ethnic food is consistently disappointing. It reminds me of eating Chinese food in the 70's around America -- bland and starchy. Of course, there are exceptions and maybe Europe's food is also changing. With politicians like Jorg Haider and Le Pen everywhere, you can't expect food with much authenticity to be embraced. Wed Apr 24 08:37:51 -0700 2002 1380703 0 Raycharleson 6 1380753 1. Your tip with the cafe is very good ! 2. Your expression "experience in Germanic countries" is misleading. There are currently three "Germanic countries": Germany, Austria and Switzerland, and the local restaurant scene is extremely different in each of these three. Especially in Switzerland and Austria it is as lively as somewhere else in the world, and about 100% more lively than any area outside the urban centers in the USA. You are right when you want to say that authentic local cousine is hard to find in Germany. This is improving only slowly and not in the eastern counties. And this is NOT true for Austria and Switzerland, where the gourmet restaurants try to improve local recipes and dishes in a way never tried before (see Steirereck). 3. Your remark concerning authentic food vs. Haider and Le Pen is again totally inappropriate and misplaced. If you follow this argument, food in the USA should be completely inedible since Bush junior came around ;-) 4. Come and try Steiereck in Vienna and/or Pogusch... Thu Apr 25 02:50:31 -0700 2002 1380707 0 Michael 7 1380855 I worked in Switzerland for 5 years. Generally, I think you make valid points, but I'm thinking much more about the low end versus the refined end. Yes, Austria, Germany, and Switzerland are different, though I think the hole in the wall sentiment is not. I remember being invited to eat Ethiopian food in Lausanne. While it was adequate, there were no diners aside from me who were not Ethiopian. In Washington DC, for example, one might have choices between several restaurants from Eritrea or Ethiopia, and the local influence may force them to be more critical. You know as well as I know. If you are from Cameroon and in Germany for 12 years, even if you are a white collar professional, the question may be, "When are you going back to your country." I'm no Nationalist, but generally, in the States, we're much more used to the foreign face belonging here. I never wonder if someone comes from somewhere else. I realize we are stereotyping madly, but our model is just so different. Sudanese in the Dakotas, Hmong in Minnesota, Vietnamese is Central Pennsylvania. In Berlin where my wife comes from, it's hard for us to get good Turkish food though the Turks have lived there for generations. It's just different man. Mon Apr 29 11:25:54 -0700 2002 1380753 0 Raycharleson 7 1380856 I worked in Switzerland for 5 years. Generally, I think you make valid points, but I'm thinking much more about the low end versus the refined end. Yes, Austria, Germany, and Switzerland are different, though I think the hole in the wall sentiment is not. I remember being invited to eat Ethiopian food in Lausanne. While it was adequate, there were no diners aside from me who were not Ethiopian. In Washington DC, for example, one might have choices between several restaurants from Eritrea or Ethiopia, and the local influence may force them to be more critical. You know as well as I know. If you are from Cameroon and in Germany for 12 years, even if you are a white collar professional, the question may be, "When are you going back to your country." I'm no Nationalist, but generally, in the States, we're much more used to the foreign face belonging here. I never wonder if someone comes from somewhere else. I realize we are stereotyping madly, but our model is just so different. Sudanese in the Dakotas, Hmong in Minnesota, Vietnamese is Central Pennsylvania. In Berlin where my wife comes from, it's hard for us to get good Turkish food though the Turks have lived there for generations. It's just different man. Mon Apr 29 11:30:24 -0700 2002 1380753 0 Raycharleson 8 1380918 Your are right and wrong a the same time: Here in Vienna you can now get very decent Vietnamese, Malaysian or Indian food at several places, either at very low cost or at a premium price (not to speak of the Japanese, Korean, Chinese and Thai places you cannot avoid at every corner). One of my favourite places is an Iranian grill, where I go with my family at least once a month. Usually at least 50% of their customers are NOT from Iran, and there are three more places with authentic Iranian food which the local people also like very much. And Turkish food !!! One of the top restaurants for the last 30 years in Vienna was the Kervansaray, run by an Armenian from Turkey, providing only first class Turkish cuisine at a premium price. And his son Attila Dogudan, heads the most succesful catering company in Vienna, Do&co. I have to admit that there are very few African restaurants around. I am sure this will change soon... You always forget that in the USA, EVERBODY is either an immigrant or the son/daughther or the grandson/granddaughter of an immigrant. Thus, it is natural that you accept people from everywhere around the world, you simply have to! And of course traditions have much more weight here in the old world, where people have stayed in the same place for generations, sometimes for centuries. Thus, any new face, even just from a neighboring county, might have some difficulties to get accepted. And of course this might be more difficult in a small village than in an urban setting where up to 50% of the population are immigrants from foreign countries ... Still, the points you wanted to make, that there is not enough authentic found arond here in Europe, is actually maybe more valid for the mediterrean countries like Spain and Italy, than for the "Germanic countries". Wed May 01 10:57:26 -0700 2002 1380856 0 Michael 9 1380922 Happily, concerning Vienna, I stand corrected. Much has changed. Yet Germany and Switzerland, generally, from my recent experiences, remain sorely lacking. I live in Miami. Right now, from where I sit in the deep suburbs, by bicycle, I can find months worth of choices of inexpensive ethnic restaurants and food from around the world.(Of course, most of us have to drive because we are too inactive to walk or bike.) I will spend the month of July in Berlin as I often do. No disrespect intended, but my friends and family there will speak of numerous possibilities, but I expect, as always, to be dissatisfied by the taste and variety. I think it reminds me of the early stages of Chinese food in America -- uninspired fare for a little bit of profit. I'll enjoy breakfast, Italian, and cafes, but not so much else. Am I really wrong? Wed May 01 12:18:42 -0700 2002 1380918 0 Raycharleson 1 1380653 As I have posted on this site many times before, for eating in Italy I cannot recommend Fred Plotkin's "Italy for the Gourmet Traveler" and Faith H. Willinger's "Eating in Italy" more highly. They do the best job I have seen in giving ideas for restaurants, shops, markets, wine bars, etc. Also recommended is the Slow Food's guide to the Osterias of Italy. In print, I think it is still only available only in Italian but if you go to www.slowfood.com, you can access their recommendations in English. Mon Apr 22 14:50:44 -0700 2002 1380646 0 DavidT 2 1380666 Those are all great suggestions, the most worthwhile really. I would add the Cadogan for italy. Not all of those are great but I like the writing and opinions in the italian one. The most extraordinary book for rome and walking tours to follow is an out of print but sometimes findable book by georgina masson - I cannot remember the title at the moment. It's filled with great treasures about how to get into hidden chapels in old churches and all. Tue Apr 23 10:44:57 -0700 2002 1380653 0 djk 3 1380672 Masson's book is part of the "Companion Guide" Series, and I second the recommendation wholeheartedly. It breaks down the city into easy walking tours, and points out wonderful little details that other guides do not. For example, it taught me that if you look closely at the Madonna on the terrace of a building on the via dei Portoghesi (across from the hotel of the same name -- good place, btw), you will notice that she is holding not the baby Jesus, but a baby monkey. Masson's book also explains how to get into the Palazzo Spada (near Palazzo Farnese) to see Borromini's amazing exercise in perspective. The other books in that series are also worth picking up -- Hugh Honour's guide to Venice is especially good. Tue Apr 23 13:54:10 -0700 2002 1380666 0 Jeremy M 3 1380673 I would agree with the Cadogan. They're generally good as a starting point.My bible really is Osteria-I find that for my taste anyhow you can't go too far wrong. I'll look at the main guides out of curiousity.For a start what people don't realise-sorry what I didn't realise is that these guides are at least a year out of date and in the food business that can be a very long time. Tue Apr 23 13:59:55 -0700 2002 1380666 0 ham 1 1380656 Every time I scroll by your post I think: paper or plastic? Mon Apr 22 17:45:17 -0700 2002 1380646 0 mc michael 1 1380768 You might want to check their web pages...gives you an idea of their scope. Thu Apr 25 11:33:49 -0700 2002 1380646 0 Jim H.