261082 Sun Mar 17 12:37:11 -0800 2002 15 26 International 0 1379705 I have just completed a search of the site on dining in Verona. Not very fruitful. Has anyone been recently? I am looking for 1-2 nice (expensive) restaurants for a celebration and some cheap ones for regular dining for both lunch and dinner. Any help would be appriciated. We are also going to Florence and Venice. I followed many of the strings on the site already and found great recomendations in those areas but if anyone has any can't miss (preferably inexpensive) places. I would love to hear about them too. Thank you. Sun Mar 17 12:37:11 -0800 2002 0 Alex Failmezger 1 1379708 i too have been looking for Verona recommendations; i have gotten conflicting reports on Il Desco and not much else (the most reliable report i got was very positive). i'll be reading with keen interest to see if others have more useful info. Sun Mar 17 13:26:25 -0800 2002 1379705 0 kirk wallace 2 1379715 I have posted on here a number of times about restaurants including numerous one and two stars along with the three star Dal Pescatore. I have also noted the two star Le Calandre in Rubano near Padua is one of the "hottest" restaurants in the country right now. On a trip last year with stops at da Caino, da Fiore, Dal Pescatore, Le Calandre, di Vinus (Florence) and the two star Il Desco other than an incredible dessert Il Desco simply wasn't in league with any of the others. We had a bottle of '97 Solaia that we had to ASK to have decanted. The food? Quite honestly I remember nothing about it other than it was totally unexceptional. My wife and I actually had a discussion waiting for our check why Michelin had deemed it worthy of one star let alone two. We laughed noting that da Fiore only has one and wondered if the same reviewer went to both. The dessert sampler was superb however. Chocalate Decadence or some name to that effect except in Italian. But for all of my criticism this was truly outstanding. I would leave Verona and drive to Le Calandre. The link is below. It's probably an hour's drive to this two star but this I believe to be equal to Italy's best. Verona by the way is a beautiful city and should not be missed. Just at dinner time. Link: http://relaischateaux.com/site/fr/FicheAdherent?RcCode=calandre Sun Mar 17 14:18:29 -0800 2002 1379708 0 Joe H. 3 1379717 To be fair the just released 2001 tre forchettes from Gambero Rosso have elevated Il Desco to this level with a food rating of 52 and an overall rating of 90. Le Calandre is not listed as tres forchettes. Both have two Michelin stars. Clearly we must have ordered the worst possible six dishes they have. (two appetizers, pasta, risotto and two entrees as well as desserts) My opinions are stated in the previous post. da Fiore is not listed either and Dal Pescatore is ranked below Florence's Enoteca (93 to 92). Michelin gives Enoteca two stars and Dal Pescatore three. Below is the homepage for Le Calandre with their menu and pricing along with numerous photographs and even some recipes. Link: http://www.calandre.com Sun Mar 17 15:23:10 -0800 2002 1379715 0 Joe H. 4 1379722 we've been in verona 3 times, the last 5 years. we di trattoria marchetti, and bottiglia de vino Sun Mar 17 19:24:09 -0800 2002 1379717 0 sk 4 1379752 Having wandered into Le Calandre for lunch 3 years ago not knowing what to expect (and as i recall not even having shaved that morning, and certainly wihtout a tie), we had a tremendous meal and the most gracious service and even a fun (albeit limited by the absence of much of a common language) chat with Massimilliano. So, I share your sentiments exactly. We're going back there in May, and I can't wait. Still need to make a plan for 1 open meal spot in or near verona (already booked dal pescatore too), but Il Desco seems like one we could pass on, based on your description -- those sorts of things bother me to and I am alwasy surprised by them at Italian michelin starred places (can you imagine that at Tenda Rossa or Pinchiori? i can't; and certainly not at da Fiori, eventhough one of its charms is that it is much less formal. thanks again for the thoughts. Tue Mar 19 12:57:43 -0800 2002 1379717 0 kirk wallace 5 1379769 Thanks for the nice words. They are appreciated. The night that my wife and I went to Il Desco was the middle of December of 2000. In walking from our hotel to Il Desco we walked by a restaurant that had a Christmas Tree 15 feet tall made out of wine bottles hung on a wire frame. There must have been over a thousand of them. It was lit with flood lights and illuminated a central court off of the main street that ran through the central shopping district up to the Baglioni. When we saw this we went back to the Baglioni and got our camera to photograph it. I've never seen anything like this anywhere. After photographing it I walked inside the restaurant which was just prior to its closing-it must have been close to 2300. It was still half full but the restaurant had a "feeling" to it. Do you know what I mean? Just something about a place that tells you that you should be having a meal there...now? My wife and I both regretted not having dinner there that night. With the imagination and care that went into that "wine bottle Christmas tree" there was a mind behind this that we wanted to meet. Especially if this person was a chef. I just don't know the name of the restaurant but one day we'll return and have dinner there, probably close to Christmas. Does anyone on this board know the name of the restaurant I'm talking about? Before we went to Il Desco I had considered a restaurant called Tre Marchetti which had a star but only one crossed knife and fork. This had appealed to me since I'm drawn to the kind of restaurants which have a heavy emphasis on food and a lesser emphasis on comfort. But we never went and I don't know if it is still there today. Tue Mar 19 19:01:33 -0800 2002 1379752 0 Joe H. 6 1379802 well its still there, lost its star though... now i wonder about DESINAR A SANTA TERESA and ARCHE? espresso seems to like them. Link: http://www.guidaespresso.espressoedit.it/ristoranti/jsp/ristorante.jsp?id=5065 Wed Mar 20 20:10:32 -0800 2002 1379769 0 kirk wallace 3 1379721 Question: Why would you want to decant a 97 Solaia? It has no sediment. Aeration is the only reason, and decanting at the table won't do it much good anyway. Maybe if you called a couple of hours ahead... Also, Italy is not the best place for cutting edge, "fancy" dining. Stick to trattoria's and modest places. You'll be much happier. Verona has wonderful food. Don't judge an city by it's expensive restaurants alone. Jon Sun Mar 17 18:27:34 -0800 2002 1379715 0 Jon Leventhal 4 1379724 Perhaps decant is the wrong word but certainly pouring the bottle into a decanter in an effort to help it breathe is expected by me in a restaurant on this level. No we didn't drink it right away. In fact we had two glasses of the "house" wine while it opened up. The point is that I shouldn't have had to ask; I was very surprised when the waiter began to pour the Solaia directly into my glass. For a wine on this level I don't remember having this experience before anywhere in Italy in the ten plus years I've been travelling there. In truth however this was merely part of overall very poor service. I realize that I my wife and I are Americans but I felt there was a "preference" in this restaurant for native speaking patrons. Virtually no one spoke English and I remember that the adjacent table received exemplery service which we did not. I also noted theeve s decanted whle our Solaia was not. I also realize that you are probably thinking ( as I might) that perhaps there was something in MY attitude or demeanor to create this reaction. I believe not. I 've travelled extensively throughout Italy on business (10 to 15 days a year) and pleasure for over ten years. In fact one of the companies I represent is Italian in Vicenza. (I'm a manufacturers' representative in my industry.) But along with Bice in Milan in perhap 200 plus restaurant meals in Italy I've never had such poor condescending overall service. On the otherhand from Le Calandre to Dal Pescatore to da Fiore I have hand simply superb, attentive service. In fact most everywhere I have found a kind of chemistry where managers and staff WANT to share respecting my almost obsessive love of food and wine. But not with Il Desco. Sun Mar 17 20:29:23 -0800 2002 1379721 0 Joe H. 4 1379725 One additional comment about your post which I found to be quite interesting. I've had meals in a rental car on the side of the road where I bought some proscuitto, reggiano and good crusty bread. I've also been in most every two and three star from Roma north. From Im Schiffchen outside of Dusseldorf to El Raco de can Fabes outside of Barcelona I think I know what good food and service is about. If you are limiting yourself in Italy, as you seem to be, you are missing out on quite a lot. Not every wine I drink is Solaia. That proscuitto and reggiano might have a cheap CC if I don't have to drive far. Or in, say, Panzano, the kind of meal you note can be memorable. But there are other restaurants in Italy where I have expected more and have experienced more. As much as, say, Paris. When a good bottle of wine is opened it should be poured into a decanter prior to being served. That is proper service. Sun Mar 17 20:38:07 -0800 2002 1379721 0 Joe H. 5 1379726 I'm interested in knowing what you really like in Italy, as well as Austria as we're going to both this summer (Major cities Rome and north), from three stars to trattorias. The only "fancy" ristorante I've eaten at is in Erbusco in 1995 and Da Fiore last year. Both were good, but not, IMO, as memorable as some of my other meals that were more traditional. As for the wine, I was commenting on the age, not the quality (its a wonderful bottle, 97 solaia). Cheers. Jon Sun Mar 17 21:50:29 -0800 2002 1379725 0 Jon Leventhal 6 1379729 Thanks, Jon. I just focused on that wine on a trip a year ago when it was still available because it's virtually unavailable in the U. S. at the price it should be selling for. In Italy I saw it starting at 160,000 lira (Taverna del Branzino in Firenze), 180,000 lira at Il Desco up to 230,000 lira at da Fiore. I've posted several times on da Fiore but basically seven or eight years ago when it was 60% of the price it is today I enjoyed it more. It was also somewhat of a "find" then having not received notoriety in every American article about Venice. I still like it but we don't go every trip because of this. I should note that when I travel on business I'll usually seek out a better restaurant but often am quite happy in the Panzano analogy that I used. Having said that I've also posted several times on here about a restaurant frequently almost exclusively by "locals" in Fierenze called di Vinus. An incredible bisteca fiorentina. Better than Sabatino's or Taverna and somewhat less expensive. This is a wonderful little find two blocks off of the far side of Arno on a side street with wooden floors, brick walls and a three story high beamed ceiling. Everyone there is extremely friendly. It is the kind of place where they bring out "tastes" of food for enthusiastic customers to try. They just have that kind of pride. I can't say enough about it and while it doesn't have a star it's probably exactly the kind of restaurant that you noted. By the way Il Vescovino in Panzano also makes an incredible bisteca. Both of these are better if you can order it for two. Both are three inches thick on the bone. I've been by myself several times and I enjoy the thicker cut of meat when my wife is with me. Al Porto in Milano is a wonderful seafood restaurant with the best waiter that I have encountered in all of Europe: his name is Paolo and he speaks perfect English. This is also considered by most to be Milan's best seafood restaurant. Another r estaurant there that I like a lot is La Scaletta. When I think about it so many of the most enjoyable meals are ones that I really just drove by/"stumbled" by and had a feeling about the restaurant and went in. Expecting nothing I've had incredible meals. But for serious dining I really believe that Le Calandre noted above, Gambero Rosso (two stars and Gambero Rosso's highest food rating in the entire country ((no relation)) ), da Caino, Dal Pescatore and Al Soriso another three star. I have not been to Guido but others on here haved raved about it. In Bologna Battebecco has a star but it's really a tratorria and has superb fish with inventive but successful attempts at dishes like curry risotto. The owner of Bitone in Bologna, also a star, is probably the greatest "salesman" and ambassador for a restaurant that I've seen in the country. He's wonderful and although he doesn't speak English that is absolutely no problem. The room itself is also quite special, romantic and it should be shared if possible. Bologna itself may have the best overall food of any area of Italy in my opinion but this probably has as much to do with my taste as anything else. Prices on everything there from clothing to wine (excellent enoteca just off of via independenza) to restaurants are among the lowest from Rome north. I have not been to Austria but I am a big fan of Robert Kracher's dessert wines. If you are into this I personally believe the finest dessert wines in the world are Avignonesi's Vin Santos which are virtually impossible to find in America and are available but must really be looked for in Italy. They are expensive but absolutely incredible, like a syrupy nectar with an incredibly long lingering flavor. One last comment. It is because I have been fortunate to have had so many wonderful experiences in restaurants in Italy with so many waiters, managers, chefs, etc. who really went out of their way for me that when a kind of indifference or arrogance, if you will, happened at Il Desco I found it quite disappointing. I mentioned Bice in Milan. Five or six years ago my wife and I had a reservation there and when we showed up (dressed in coat and tie, she wearing heels) we were shown to a dining room where everyone in it was from either the U. S., the U. K., Japan, Korea, etc. In short there were NO Italians in this dining room. The eight or ten tables had two waiters and neither spoke a word of English or anyother language besides Italian. The other dining room had as many or more tables and every one was filled with locals. In fifty five years I've never experienced something like this before especially in a better restaurant. Although I don't speak Italian I do feel that I understand most every dish on any restaurant's menu. Here it didn't matter. Like Il Desco Bice had a good reputation. But I couldn't help but be influenced by treatment like this. Take care. Mon Mar 18 00:14:08 -0800 2002 1379726 0 Joe H. 4 1379727 Actually, decanting a '97 Solaia in order to aerate it would be a good idea, and decanting it thus at the table actually does some good; it helps open it up, even just before drinking it. Sun Mar 17 22:22:11 -0800 2002 1379721 0 Leslie Brenner 1 1379728 In Verona several years ago we had a memorable dinnner at Osteria la Fontanina (Via Madonna Terraglio), which is across the Adige river towards the Roman theater (not the Arena). A favorite casual spot for lunch/dinner in Venice is VinoVino, near the Fenice theater and adjacent to the Anitca Martino restaurant (they share the same kitchen). It has an excellent wine list and reasonable prices. In Venice also try Ostaria da Alberto in the Canaregio district. As always, check out Fred Plotkin's "Italy for the Gourmet Traveler" and Faith H. Willinger's "Eating in Italy." Anyplace they recommend is a very good bet. Sun Mar 17 23:50:47 -0800 2002 1379705 0 DavidT 2 1379766 In venice - antica bessetta. It's wonderful, I'm sorry I don't have my folder with me for address info. Tue Mar 19 16:55:49 -0800 2002 1379728 0 djk