260981 Thu Feb 28 21:56:06 -0800 2002 6 26 International 0 1379162 Hello, I'm looking for some rather specialized information regarding turn-of-the-century (19th century, that is) English restaurants. Specifically, I need to know the job title of the second-in-command cook of a fine restaurant in England circa 1900. Would he have been called the sous chef? Apprentice chef? Was there even such a position, or was there just the cuisinier and a bunch of underlings? I've read Orwell's DOWN AND OUT IN PARIS & LONDON and consulted several culinary history books and websites, but I have not been able to answer this question. Any information will be much appreciated. Thu Feb 28 21:56:06 -0800 2002 0 Doc Thimacides 1 1379163 I've posted your question on a closed professional newsgroup. There'll probably be a quick response. Fri Mar 01 01:42:29 -0800 2002 1379162 0 John Whiting 1 1379168 The first response, from a noted food historian: Not a restaurant, and I don't know if the hierarchy and terminoloy are the same,but Gabriel Tschumi, describing his arrival at Buckingham Palace to start as a kitchen apprentice in 1898 describes the Royal chef M Menager (equivalent to chef de cuisine in a restaurant at the time), who had eighteen chefs working under him, eight of whom had their own tables in different parts of the kitchen. "These, I found out, were the master cooks, some of whom one day might rise to the position of chef, with large staffs of their own, In the meantime they worked under M Menager's supervision ...... assisted by the heads of other sections, the two pastrycooks, two roast cooks, bakers, confectioners' chefs and two larder cooks. Then, in diminishing order of importance, came two assistant chefs, eight kitchen maids, six scullery maids, six scourers, and finally the four apprentices." Fri Mar 01 05:00:52 -0800 2002 1379162 0 John Whiting 1 1379171 A few good sources of English food cultural history/info - maybe a bit off-topic for you this time, but perhaps useful in the future... - The BBC Food Programme (call & they may tell you how to find the info you are looking for) - Books for Cooks (Elgin Crescent in London) - Paul Richardson - author of "Cornucopia - an English Gastronomic tour" (or something like this) I'll bet there is a way to get in touch with him through his publisher - old Constance Spry books - Mrs. Beeton books (sort of the "mary ellen" of her day - a book that is just being reprinted, I believe, called something like"English Household COokery" or "Cookery for the private household"...I'll try to find the exact title/author, it was probably written in Victorian era or just after...as a manual for the head housekeeper in an Upstairs/Downstairs kind of house Fri Mar 01 05:57:00 -0800 2002 1379162 0 magnolia 1 1379184 Don't know the answer, but I can point you to a couple of sources: What Jane Austen Ate and Charles Dickens Knew by Daniel Pool. Daily life in 19th cent. England -- fascinating compendium of trivia. The Duchess of Jermyn Street by Mollie Hardwick and Daphne Fielding. About Rosa (forgot her last name) who was personal chef to Winston Churchill's mother and ran a hotel on Jermyn street. They're both entertaining reads apart from other intellectual pursuits. Fri Mar 01 10:53:11 -0800 2002 1379162 0 Caitlin Wheeler 1 1379209 Another reply from another food historian: Not as easy to answer as might be thought. Size is all important. The great reformer of kitchen organisation at this period was Auguste Escoffier (1846-1935). For the opening of the Carlton Hotel, London,1899, Escoffier employed a chef de cuisine , a chef saucier and several chefs de partie and many more. You may find more detail in the various works on Escoffier. This info came from The World of Escoffier, by Timothy Shaw, Zwemmer, 1994. There is also an Escoffier Museum, Nr Nice with a web site. Sat Mar 02 05:22:37 -0800 2002 1379162 0 John Whiting 1 1379338 Thanks very much to everyone who replied. Even the suggested sources that don't directly answer my question sound fascinating, and I intend to check them out. Mon Mar 04 14:41:17 -0800 2002 1379162 0 Doc Thimacides