260973 Wed Feb 27 09:49:26 -0800 2002 20 26 International 0 1379113 My wife and I are planning a trip to Florence/Venice during the first week of September. My first question is: are the restaurants in both cities all open at this time, and second, what are your recommendations for two splurge dinners in each city? Though I realize, of course, that this isn't Paris and that "splurge" doesn't necessarily mean "the best"...basically, we're looking for the best dining experiences in each city--it doesn't have to be fancy but we're willing to spend. Thanks in advance for the help. Wed Feb 27 09:49:26 -0800 2002 0 Joe 1 1379118 If you will scroll down a month or so, you'll find a lively discussion of the merits and demerits of Osteria da Fiore(aka da Fiore), in the view of some the best restaurant in Italy. It should be open. It's hard to find. It's expensive. But, it's good. In the same vicinity on the board, you'll find talk of Cibreo in Florence. Haven't been there, but some knowledgable posters have. Ciao. Wed Feb 27 10:49:00 -0800 2002 1379113 0 mc michael 2 1379135 Da Fiore is superb and, overall, the best restaurant in Venice. My only criticism of it is that they have raised their prices quite a bit over the past several years. Patricia Wells several years ago in the International Herald Tribune called it the best restaurant in Italy. (It is not but it is excellent.) You absolutely MUST reserve one month in advance or more. In Florence there have also been many discussions on this board. Cibreo is excellent but one point: there are many, many Americans who go there. For some this is a problem since it may not feel like you're in Italy. For others it is actually reassuring. But it is excellent. The two star Enoteca (da Fiore is one star in Michelin) Pinchiorri (sp?) has a divided camp. Soome believe it is truly extraordinary. Others stiff and overpriced. You may want to consider a serious meal in the countryside as another poster mentioned. Between Venice and Florence are a number of two stars worth exploring as well as several just outside of Florence. In particular the two star Le Calendre in Rubano (8 km. from Padua, 49 km from Venice) is thought by some to be the best restaurant in Italy right now. (Al Soriso, Guido, Gambero Rosso and Dal Pescatore all compete for their title among others.) It is on the way between the two cities but again, you absolutely MUST reserve well in advance. You should get ahold of the Gambero Rosso guide or, at the least, go to their website and look up "tres forchettes." There are about twenty restaurants in the country with a food rating of 90 or higher. Along with Michelin you will have an excellent handle on where to find the absolute best. Michelin also has a website. Last, older issues of the Wine Spectator have had superb issues dedicated to eating in both cities. The W. S. issue on Florence was truly superb with detail stories and photos of a number of great Tuscan restaurants in and around the city. Find them, they are the single best resource I know of. Wed Feb 27 15:16:33 -0800 2002 1379118 0 Joe H. 3 1379156 I'm firmly in the Enoteca Pinchiorri camp. Absolutely spectacular (both food and price). However, a possible strategy is to go for lunch - in particular, they used to have a real deal on saturday lunch (fixed price including wine) and I was able to get in with only 2 days notice as Saturdays there are no business customers. Thu Feb 28 11:40:38 -0800 2002 1379135 0 Estufarian 1 1379125 It was 3 or so years ago, but my most memorable meals in Venice were: Hotel Cipriani - My parents were staying there, so we had dinner once, and 2 or 3 lunches beside the pool overlooking the lagoon. The facilities and views are spectacular, and the food was very good. There is a private launch from the Piazza San Marco (you may need reservations to get on, though). Very expensive. Harry's Bar - The food was excellent (I had an amazing wild mushroom pasta), but the upstairs dining room was very cramped and crowded. I think you can eat in the bar as well. Very expensive. My favorite meal in Venice was at Trattoria Alla Rivetta, a tiny, unpretentious space behind the Hotel Danieli. I still dream about the calamari I had there. No reservations, but while we stood on line they passed out glasses and brought out pitchers of Prosecco. My ex and I were asked to share a table with another couple, which was no problem. One round of drinks and cigars at the Danieli afterwards cost more than the entire meal including wine. I think the "season" in Venice extends into October - that's when we were there and everything seemed open. Have a great time Blondie Wed Feb 27 12:05:47 -0800 2002 1379113 0 Blondie 1 1379127 I have two recommendations for Venice, both of which are located in Dorsoduro. The first is San Trovaso (I think it was called that). Hidden up a back street of Dorsoduro it is a jewel of a place, but blink and you will miss it. Primarily serving fish the service was impeccable and the food more so. Highly recommended. San Trovaso Dorsoduro 1016 Fondamenta Priuli The second is more of a curio, but is very much worth a visit. Trattoria Ai Cugnai Dorsoduro 857 Near Accademia 041-52-89-238 It's run by a group of retired Italian grannies who obviously had nothing to do once their children grew up and so opened a restaurant. The menu is basic but you are more likely to be told what you’re going to eat by one of the grannies, that is part of the charm of the place. Lovely food, friendly atmosphere and very cheap. Hope this helps. Wed Feb 27 12:24:42 -0800 2002 1379113 0 David Powell 1 1379134 1. The "off season" in Venice actually are the months July and August and the days between Dec.24 and Jan.6. During this time Venice is flooded with the worst kind of tourists, many good restautants therefore decide to close. September and October as well as May and June are the best months to go. Everything is open, there is a lively scene of concerts and exhibitions :-) 2. Restaurants to go: see my recommendations in other threads below. 3. For the splurge you want my recommendation is Fiaschetteria Toscana, a real treat for the best in local seafood and some creative cuisine as well (hard to find in Venice). It is opposite of S.Giovanni Crisostomo on the street from Rialto (San Marco side) to the train station. You cannot miss it. Closed Tuesday. 3. If you want to save money and eat even better Venetian food: leave town for the mainland. E.g.: Go to Mira, as small town on the Brenta, visit the Trattoria Nalin for the best seafood antipasti you will have for the rest of your life. People drive there from Bologna and Milano for dinner... Wed Feb 27 14:31:57 -0800 2002 1379113 0 Michael 1 1379140 Other Venice favorites are Trattoria La Colomba and Ristorante Corte Sconta. Saw a piece on cable about a wine bar near Rialto Bridge which I believe was called Cantina Do Mori. Supposed to be a good value. The morning market near the bridge is fun as well. Wed Feb 27 17:42:10 -0800 2002 1379113 0 mc michael 1 1379148 I spent some time around Florence last September. Here's what I liked for restaurants: 1. Osteria Belladonna, in Florence on Via Belladonna. Excellent ingredients, simple style, great flavors, not terribly expensive, friendly, welcoming. Had a ball. 2. Podere La Toricella (not sure on the spelling). This is an agriturismo place south and west of Florence about 15-20 km. It is between Ginestra and San Casciano, just south of the road between the two. Call for reservations and directions. It was amazingly good food, elegant and calm atmosphere, nice people, not terribly expensive (the pricey bottle of red wine was $12), we got out for under $30 / person and ate very well. 3. Bar Carolino II in Montelupo (just SW of Florence). Great little place for lunch. Amazing spinach. Amazing pasta. Lots of locals. Kinda modern sparkly decor. Friendly informal, cheap. We stayed outside Florence in a refurbed farm house. I went to one of the local temples of beef (it was so cool) and bought a couple of ribs worth of Chiannina beef, brought it home, slathered it with some olive oil and pepper and grilled it medium rare. It was amazing. I don't love beef, but this was some incredible meat. If I could get it in the USA, I'd only buy Chiannina and I'd eat it once a week. We traveled with little kids, we found peanut butter to be a rarity. It took a little searching, but we found it at the Ibercoop (hyper mart, akin to a Sam's Club) and at a very small Sri Lankan grocery. Thu Feb 28 01:35:27 -0800 2002 1379113 0 Jim G. 1 1379152 One more: One think you should never forget that in Italy the BEST food need not necessarily be the MOST EXPENSIVE !! There are two places which are a must, although you will maybe laugh when you get the bill: 1: In Venice: Trattoria della Madonna in a side street parallel to the Rialto Market. A must if you are in Venice and like good, but inexpensive food - at least inexpensive by Venetian standards ;-). 2. In Florence: Il Latini. Menitioned by me before in another thread, this must not be missed when in Florence. Look for the other comments on this place in this list. But be there early around 7 p.m., if you come after 8 p.m. you have to wait in line in front of the place :-) Try these two after you went to one of the star rated places.. Thu Feb 28 02:48:04 -0800 2002 1379113 0 Michael 2 1379157 Ahem, these particular restaurants have been in tourist guides since the late 70s at least - remember Frommer's $5 a day? We went to Il Latini more than 20 yrs ago and it was wall-to-wall americans - yes it was a convivial place and good value for money, basically all you can eat, but the food quality was unimpressive. Tuscan food CAN be bland, and theirs was not special. There have been many, many posts on this Board over the last couple of years on restaurants in Florence and Venice and many references to good resources, Faith Willinger's book among them. I would recommend that you use the search feature to find this trove of info. Thu Feb 28 11:46:06 -0800 2002 1379152 0 jen kalb 3 1379160 Jen, don't be so sure. I think I Latini is worth a trip. Do I think it's the most creative place in all of Florence to eat? No. But I think it's a great representation of classic cucina toscana and you shouldn't knock it. It's fun. I recall some great liver crostini...sure it's filled with Americans but that's true of so many restaurants (sadly) in Florence. It's a small town with lots of tourists so that's inevitable. And Italians don't eat out at the rate we do in this country. Thu Feb 28 12:53:49 -0800 2002 1379157 0 Amanda 3 1379164 Of course you are right. But I think that sometimes popular places can also be fun ;-) Remember, I said NOT that Il Latini was the only place to go when visiting Florence, I said you should go to the star rated places, but still should not miss others, which might offer also value for the money. I have been to Enoteca Pinchiorri also, and whereas I found the service to be perfect, I think that the menue was not that spectacular... And Florentines also go to Latini ! And how many restaurants of "Europe on 5$ a day" from 1975 are still in operation and fun to go ??? Fri Mar 01 03:07:43 -0800 2002 1379157 0 Michael 4 1379179 I was not saying that Il Latini is terrible by any stretch and it may well have upgraded its offerings since 1979! I guess what I was saying is this and I apolgize in advance for restating the obvious: There are restaurants that every American has heard about and every guidebook covers. The so called "starred" restaurants and some others (Including Il Latini)which have established a rep. On this website's are resources to find delicious restaurants which may or may not be so widely known. My experience in Italy (except in Venice, because the seafood there is so rare and pricy) is that the most expensive food in the fanciest restaurant is rarely the most satisfying or delicious. Its often disappointing. Likewise touristic spots because they figure out they can get away with serving mediocre cuisine to an undiscriminating clientele. It is a wonder and a testament to italians and their passion for quality and deliciousness that there IS good food at all in a touristic center like Venice since there is a very small local audience and a deluge of outsiders. So it pays to suss out local favorites - you are just likely to have better experiences, foodwise there - and come to understand what there is to love and appreciate about local cuisines. As I recall it, Il Latine will expose you to the basic elements of the tuscan cuisine You will have a good time, we did too, but you probably will not leave there with a passionate appreciation of the virtues of tuscan white beans, olive oils, soups, breads, etc. etc. central to the cuisine. I will not be so bold as to make counter-recommendations since its been two years since I visited Florence - but I would ask others to chime in and offer up some quality alternatives to the obvious. Fri Mar 01 09:50:19 -0800 2002 1379164 0 jen kalb 5 1379217 I would agree with Michael on Il Latini - I find it a very warm and friendly place and the food can be very good. One other recommendation in Florence I would make is Cibreo (in what was the Jewish quarter) - I believe this is one of the most exquisite and elegant restaurants in the world. In Venice I think Harry's Bar is unmissable for the food and the experience - a couple of Bellinis and then four courses upstairs (even if it is in "Siberia") is great fun. Also the Locanda Cipriani on Torcello in the garden from spring onwards is a magical experience. Sat Mar 02 09:11:47 -0800 2002 1379179 0 peter hall 6 1379245 Well, I'm going to get myself in trouble but I found Il Latini to be mediocre at best. I've been three times and all three times seated with other Americans. They also have a great deal of wine which is NOT on the menu and unless you ask for it you'll never know it exists. They seem to have a formula for Americans and it does not assume real sophistication in Italian dining. There is absolutely NOTHING exceptional about any single dish they serve. It is all fairly good at best and there is plenty of it. Sort of like the dining halls in Pennsylvania Dutch country. With the hams hanging from the ceiling there is a "neat" feeling to it. But it's just not the quality or type of meal that I would really want to find in Florence. The last time I was there was a year ago and having found an absolute treasure in "di Vinus" I will probably not go back. Cibreo IS excellent but as I noted in another post there are some who prefer to eat in a restaurant in Italy that is not overrun with Americans and Cibreo is guiltier of this than anyone else. As I noted then if you feel reassured and more comfortable in this type of setting then Cibreo will be absolutely superb. But if you close your eyes and wonder whether you're in Firenze or the North End, well, there are other very worthy alternatives. About di Vinus: originally it was recommended to us by the concierge at the Excelsior. All we expected was decent food and wine on a Sunday night, nothing exceptional. We just felt lucky to find a place open. This is on a side street in a non descript brick building just off the river, totally away from any tourist path. It has a wood floor, brick walls, 30' ceilings and numerous bottles of Castello di Ama CC and their riservas displayed near the bar. One waiter spoke excellent English and over the course of our incredible two hour meal would bring us complimentary tastes of different dishes from the kitchen. This is not a three star but some of the food was as good. The absolute best bisteca ala fiorentina in Florence. Better than Taverna del Branzino or Sabatino's which we have also been to and reputed to be Florence's best. As good as anything in the countryside. On the bone three inches thick (I measured, it was for two.) with juice and olive oil which coated the meat soaking through the bed of arugula onto its wooden platter. THIS IS THE ONLY STEAK THAT I HAVE EVER HAD THAT I THOUGHT WAS BETTER THAN PETER LUGER'S. (If you go do NOT order this more than medium rare. Please!!!) di Vinus will have a star within the next year from Michelin. It does not have the style or ambience to have two or three. But it is an absolute discovery having only been open for less than two years. And, while it is more expensive than Il Latini, it is the authentic worthwhile dining experience that most Americans are really looking for. You absolutely cannot find this in the United States. No where. (I believe Il Latini's type of meal can be found most anywhere there just may not be hams hanging from the ceiling.) If you go you will be the ONLY American. No one here knows about it. Yet. This WILL be the best meal of your stay. di Vinus. Sun Mar 03 00:02:32 -0800 2002 1379217 0 Joe H. 7 1379257 Joe, Again I would say I agree with you most of the time, and would also like to thank you for this great tip (di Vinus). On the other hand the reason why I still recommend il Latini is the simple fact that MOST restaurants in the city center if Florence are much worse tourist traps than Latini. They are much more expensive and it is no fun to eat there. I know some other low-cost, great fun places in some corners of Florence, but I also am afraid that their level of hygiene might be unacceptable for most Americans ;-) What makes Latini outstanding is its value for the average tourist who does not want to spend too much money, is hungry and tired and does not want to fall into another trap. We have been in Florence last September, went to a few of the well known and star rated places for dinner, but also liked very much to have lunch or dinner at Latini, which for me is not a restaurant (like di Vinus) but rather a place where I can get decent food without long waits and still like what I see on my plate. I have to admit that we speak a little bit Italian so what we ordered was not the menu the waiter will serve to the usual Americans (and I am not American...). But as I saw even these Americans were quite happy :-) BTW: Do you have the exact address and phone number of Di Vinus, and do you know which day they are closed ? Michael Sun Mar 03 11:53:53 -0800 2002 1379245 0 Michael 8 1379278 It is closed on Monday. The address is Via Dell' Orto, 35/A. The phone number is 055 224 148. The last time we were there was also a Sunday and by 8:15 (it opened at 7:30PM) the restaurant was filled. I believe we were the only Americans. Generally, from the Excelsior or the Grand you will walk up the Arno to the next bridge and cross over. (By walking up I mean that you are walking away from the Ponte Vecchio.) After you cross over the river continue on that street for one or two blocks and you will see Via Dell 'Orto. turn left and it is one half block down on the right. This is a quiet residential neighborhood. If possible try and order the bisteca ala fiorentina FOR TWO which will be a cut three inches thick. They still serve their steak on the bone. I am jealous. And hungry. If you go please post on here your honest opinions. Sun Mar 03 16:38:57 -0800 2002 1379257 0 Joe H. 1 1379218 Was it a dream or did it really exist...? When I was living in Florence about 15 years ago there was a dining club on the Piazza Santa Spiritu - it used to open for lunch a few days each week and the cooking was done by the patrons - a sort of DIY Chowhound canteen. They would experiment with the further reaches of Tuscan cuisine and try to outdo each other with wilder and more exotic dishes. It would make a great movie! Sat Mar 02 09:20:57 -0800 2002 1379113 0 peter hall 1 1379233 venice- da fiore , also alla testeiere(forget al covo imho) Sat Mar 02 15:47:39 -0800 2002 1379113 0 sk 1 1379741 Spent 5 days in Florence in December. Comments: 1. i Latini is not worth the effort. Food is mediocre at best and not that inexpensive. If you like a noisy place with a lot of tourists, go there, but make a reservation in advance so when you arrive there at 7:25PM you'll get in first. 2. Cibreo is outstanding in its cuisine but a bit pricy. Around the corner from the main restaurant they have a trattoria which serves the same food at 1/3 the price. However, they do not take reservations or take anything but cash. Check out both menus and you'll see the prices are much better at the Trattoria. 3. Very near the Uffizi (via Lambroso 6/5a) is Antico Fattore. Reasonable prices and the gnocchi in black truffle sauce is exquisite. Go to their website www.mega.it/antico.fattore and you can find a free gift offer from the restaurant which is worthwhile: a small plate with the restaurant's name (good for a peanut dish) and a free bottle of wine to take with you after you eat. 4. Le Mossacce is a tiny but authentic place for lunch. On Via del Proconsolo 55R, just south of the Duomo. Inexpensive but you'll see how the locals eat. 5. Ristorante Paoli (via dei Tavolini 12R) has an interesting interior, like the cellar of an Italian castle. The locals eat here with their families. Roomy restaurant, moderate prices. 6. Osteria Caffe Italiano (Via Isola della Stinche 11/13R) is a classy place with excellent service and food. Moderate to high prices. The place was/is a wine bar so you can try a lot of different types, but the atmosphere and food are very nice. There is also a Caffe Italiano at Via della Condotta 56R and upstairs they have a "tea room" which is just a comfortable and quiet place to have a drink and relax. They also have a limited but excellent lunch menu with food coming from one of their sister restaurants each day. On one of the side streets just off Via Dei Calzaiuoli near the Piazza della Signoria. Mon Mar 18 21:15:31 -0800 2002 1379113 0 CJ