260644 Thu Nov 29 16:39:33 -0800 2001 68 26 International 0 1377305 honestly: it IS pretty awful. you are almost guaranteed to have a miserable time in most restaurants, and the prices are astronomical. to give you an idea, over cooked pasta with canned tomato sauce is regularly eaten at ten pounds a shot with nary a peep. restaurants will take infinite pains with decor and then serve you food so bad but with such confidence you wonder if your senses have left you. thisis the one area where sarcasm doesn't get you anywhere: the brits, usually so sensitive to tone and irony, miss the point completely when you praise them for the softness of their sphagetti. they beam, the idiots. another surprise: indian restaurants are usually terrible. there isn't ONE idli-dosa place i've eaten at here that's a patch on dosa hut, for example. ditto chinese, ditto indonesian, and ditto thai. if you want decently cooked eggs with bacon, go to an expensive place (and before 10.30, if you please). the local diner type (or caff) will give you a burnt, congealed mass surrounded by bacon cooked to a crisp and charred black something you dimly recognise as toast. they'll do this with pride, and expect a tip. that about sums it, in spirit if not detail, with the usual dining scene. having said all of that, there are a few places that are remarkably extra-ordinary; hidden oases of care in this lacklustre desert. i'm listing my favourites that don't necessarily merit a big fuss in the guide books: at worst, you'll do well and at best you'll probably eat one of your most memorable meals. 1. noura (hobart place). THE single best lebanese restaurant in london; simply outstanding. outrageously good toom. 2. mohsen (warwick road) iranian food cooked with a lot of love and care. nouras kebabs are better, but the specials of the day here are usually phenomenal. eat like a king for ten pounds. 3. bombay brasserie (behind gloucester road tube)ridiculously expensive indian (recipes from goa, punjab and even one from maharastra). but at worst competent, and they know what the stuff should taste like. the real - if uninspired - thing. 4. polish hearth club (exhibition road) wow. where else can you get delicious pigs knuckle like this? nice blintzes, too. 5. launceston place (launceston place) i live on the street, so i should know. surprisingly decent modern english food, but not cheap. 6. old europeans (east finchley) authentic hungarian, paprika flown from budapest etc. wild varying standards, but on good days (esp. if its raining outside & cold) can be sublime. 7. boisedale (eccleston street) where i go to eat haggis, angus steak, and smoke a fat cigar with my after dinner scotch. 8. green papaya (mare street) disappointing pho, but some really nice stir fried dishes. lots of fresh herbs and vegetables. 9. the chinese restaurant at the dorchester is the chinese version of the bombay brasserie, and even more expensive. but at least your mouth won't feel like the inside of a vultures crotch as it will with the typical chinese restaurant. 10. c&r (rupert court) what amounts to a small miracle in the wasteland that is soho. good malaysian, especially the roti canai and eggs with sambhal. Thu Nov 29 16:39:33 -0800 2001 0 howler 1 1377306 What did you have for lunch ? was it a tad sharp? It is true that there aremore shysters in the London than most places, and that the overall standard of a Londoner is very low, hence acceptance of low standards. However, the the same can be said of more or less any city, maybe to a lesser extent, but just the same none the less, anyone who has tried to find quality in say Paris, should know that it exists but amongst alot of dross as well,the same can be said of NYC. What you are pointing up is the reason places like chowhound exist, to sort out the dross and encourage the setting of high standards. Regards Phil Thu Nov 29 17:12:25 -0800 2001 1377305 0 Phil Laurie 2 1377319 Don't they serve vulture's crotch at St.John's? Fri Nov 30 05:52:59 -0800 2001 1377306 0 Tony Finch 3 1377320 The crotch was off last night. They replaced it with the Dog's Bollocks S Fri Nov 30 05:57:14 -0800 2001 1377319 0 Simon Majumdar 1 1377308 "at least your mouth won't feel like the inside of a vulture's crotch" - I'm gonna have to remember that one. LOL Thu Nov 29 17:26:22 -0800 2001 1377305 0 Kitty 1 1377312 this is my chance to vent my anger. SHERLOCK HOLMES highly touted as one of the best fish and chips in London by a travel guide. spent two hours looking for it and it turns out mediocre by my standard. should have consulted with chowhounds but i did not know it at that time. Thu Nov 29 18:01:17 -0800 2001 1377305 0 Han Lukito 1 1377313 Gosh, it's been so many years since I've been to London, so I am so unqualified to say anything, but I have to ask this: As I was residing in Cardiff, my default starting point on London forays was always around Paddington Station. I had several, several great middle-eastern meals at the various resturants around Bayswater Road. And you always felt like you were in the middle of some kind of international intrigue with Adnan Kashoghi at the next table. Stale memory? Rob Thu Nov 29 18:29:15 -0800 2001 1377305 0 Vital Informaton 1 1377318 Of course, Howler has eaten in EVERY restaurant in London and I notice that most of the places are within two minutes waddle of his abode. I can guarantee that for every crappy meal Howler has had here, I have had two in NYC. BUT, I still think NYC is a great eating city. Why? Because I am not arrogant enough to think I know a place by dragging my bulky carcass a couple of blocks from where I am staying. I would love to know where he had the canned spaghetti and if so why didn't he complain. I know he is pretty good at it or is that the annonymous whining? I must have listed 200 places on here that are excellent. They have been tried and approved of by others. The have been not visited and dismissed by Howler. To say that there is no good Indian food in London is patently ridiculous, ditto Chinese, Ditto Thai. As we have said a million times, London is a vast sprawling city, if younwant to find the best it has to offer, you need to work at it. Howler wont do that. The truth is that I have met Howler and God forbid, I actually rather like him, but I can have no respect for his opinions on food anywhere when they are sweeping, contradictory and crass. rant over Fri Nov 30 04:17:57 -0800 2001 1377305 0 Simon Majumdar 2 1377321 Thank you for voicing what would have been my reply had I been here to read the post when it first hit the meesage board. I have just returned from a trip to NY and had five of the best meals I've had in a long time - because I took the time and effort to find them (although old staples like Gramcery Tavern and EJ's were a leisurely stroll). The same goes for London. One of my favourite restaurants in London is on the wrong side of Bermonsdey but well worth the trek. There is a lot to be said for "seek and ye shall find". Fri Nov 30 06:47:05 -0800 2001 1377318 0 Eva 3 1377330 Where is the place in Bermondsey ? For us natives of the area. Thanks Phil Fri Nov 30 13:36:53 -0800 2001 1377321 0 Phil Laurie 4 1377390 Arancia - corner of Southwark park rd and Balaclava rd. Mon Dec 03 05:29:04 -0800 2001 1377330 0 Eva 2 1377332 aaargh, the truth hurts london's great in so many ways ... i live in a beautiful part of town, and i dig that. i dig being near hyde park and holland park, i dig the warm red brick that makes these cold and rainy days brighter and i dig the irritable newspapers. i dig well kept ales, cricket on the weekends, i dig the pretty little towns and the immaculate countryside. i dig my kids schools and i dig that their childhoods are so much fun. i dig being able to run over to paris at a moments notice, and i dig that europe, africa even india are so close. eating well really requires work here in london, and the choices are precious few. there is no abundance of excellence such as you find in jackson heights. all those different cuisines, cooked superbly by native cooks primarily for each other, give you a glimpse of deliciousness that simply can't be found here. i think its as much about the admirable british trait of 'putting up' as it is with simple economics. london just doesn't have a large and diverse pool of immigrants. new york does, (as do many other north american cities). i am surprised that this is such an emotional issue. are there good, even great restuarants in london? of course. are most (i.e. 99.99%) of london restuarants at the equivalent of T.G.I.F? yes to that too. now, obviously i haven't eaten or will ever eat at every single tourist trap, and so what i mean by this statement is that i believe that given my smaple size, and assuming that quality (whatever that means) is normally distributed, then i am sure to within 99% that most london restuarants are crappy. its the same with roads, for example. are london roads usually ridiculously narrow and badly marked? yes. are there a few broad london streets? yes. is anyone getting their dander up with these statements? i think when simon rushes out to rave about london restaurants, he is really thinking about the club gascons, the la trouvailles of this world. and when he slams new york restaurants he's thinking about the fancier places. i am talking about the places where you need no appointments, i am thinking of charles in harlem, of so many places queens, of kervan in new jersey. there just is NO comparison to the quality and quantity of such restaurants here in london. lets take indian food, the alleged excellence of which london boats of. god, it is sooooooooo crappy here. brick lane, southall whatever, man its almost unedible. simon, i love you like a brother, but i grew up in bombay eating sindhi, punjabi, tamil, gujarathi, parsi, anglo indian, managalorean, goan etc. and indian restuarants do an extraordinairily poor job in representing their cuisine not just here in london, but everywhere. and while we're on the subject, i've eaten quite a few times at places you've suggested: eg. club gascon, maggies, clarkes etc. i haven't been blown away, so i haven't posted. Fri Nov 30 14:35:49 -0800 2001 1377318 0 howler 3 1377334 "london just doesn't have a large and diverse pool of immigrants." I will not bother with the rest of your post and its many failings. I think the above gives ample evidence of a blinkered, ill informed view of London and indeed life QED S Fri Nov 30 15:06:44 -0800 2001 1377332 0 Simon Majumdar 4 1377337 so sorry to confuse you with the facts, but the u.s.a. takes in about 1.2 million immigrants a year (of which about 200,00 land up in nyc). here's the url that you can check this up: http://www.sciam.com/1999/0999issue/0999numbers.html on the other hand, good old blighty takes in about 65,000 a year. here's where you'll get the details: http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/immigration1.html q.e.d? Fri Nov 30 22:28:29 -0800 2001 1377334 0 howler 5 1377338 Sorry to confuse you with History, but Britain has been taking in immagrants from a time before America even existed. Oh, and I find it hard to take the culinary arguments seriously coming from a man who thinks the word "unedible" exists Sat Dec 01 01:45:07 -0800 2001 1377337 0 Simon Majumdar 6 1377341 ".. but Britain has been taking in immagrants from a time before America " oh dear. apart from your own troubles with spelling, countering facts with weird assertions is going to get this argument exactly nowhere. as you are publisher, surely a book on basic logic is close at hand? there you will learn about valid inference, deducing conclusions from premises etc. best of luck. Sat Dec 01 08:17:04 -0800 2001 1377338 0 howler 7 1377342 I do love using your patently feeble intellect as a strop for whetting my own. Unfortunately, good manners precludes. "fish in a barrel" and all that BTW, are we still on for the 11th?:) S Sat Dec 01 08:23:57 -0800 2001 1377341 0 Simon Majumdar 8 1377346 yes of course. ;) Sat Dec 01 09:14:15 -0800 2001 1377342 0 howler 9 1377348 I hope it's not going to be roasted marrow bone at 5 paces with you two ALL evening on the 11th Sat Dec 01 09:26:58 -0800 2001 1377346 0 Tony Finch 10 1377350 No worries Howler will be too busy eating his words. S Sat Dec 01 09:34:13 -0800 2001 1377348 0 Simon Majumdar 11 1377361 Will you guys please continue sniping at each other. It's very entertaining. Since I haven't been in London in 30-40 years, I can only contribute a quote from the Goon Show, surely the last word on all things English. The villain: Who said English cooking was lousy? Rejoinder (ad lib, out of character): Just about everybody. But I imagine that time has eroded even this tidbit of eternal truth. Sat Dec 01 23:28:52 -0800 2001 1377350 0 hobokenhenry 1 1377327 Didn't Dr. Johnson say that when a man is tired of London he's tired of living? Hope that's not your diagnosis. Fri Nov 30 11:18:33 -0800 2001 1377305 0 michael (mea culpa) 1 1377335 Howler-I think the problem with London dining is that in general, food isn't delicious there. I'm not saying that you can't get delicious food there, I think you can and I have. But a city either is delicious or not. Paris is a delicious city, EVERYTHING is delicious there and it smells delicious everywhere you go(gross generalization but you know what I mean) but I have found many a town in Provence to have food that is far from delicious. There are many cities with the reputation for delicious food (Boston) where the food isn't really delicious. Having said all of that, I've owned a business in London for almost 15 years and I spend between 12 and 18 nights a year there (I live in NYC). So I've eaten in many of the places you guys talk about. Here is my take on London dining in general. Middle Eastern/Iranian- Ala Waja on Westbourne Grove best Middle Eastern for me and Patog on Crawford Place off of Edgeware Road best Iranian kabob joint. Both much better than anything one can find in the states. Haven't tried Noura but will go when I'm over in February. But is it related to the Noura in Paris, which is a swanky, upscale Lebanese traiteur in the 8th arr.? But I do not take a trip to London where I do not have at least one Middle Eastern meal. Indian-Indian in NYC really sucks. And I don't see what the big deal about the Dosa Hut is. If it wasn't on the block of the Hindu Temple it wouldn't get all of the hype. Recent openings of Tamarind and Ada here are big improvements but for my money, on a good night Tamarind in London beats the pants off of them. But I agree with Howler, considering the amount of Indian restaurants in London there could be better quality and a more varied choice. Two or three trips ago I ate at Veeraswarmy (sp?) and it came highly recommended but I thought it sucked. Bombay Brasserie is a fun place, and I would never complain about being invited there for dinner, but one can hardly say the cooking is inspired. It's sort of like The Four Seasons of Indian food. I must say that I've enjoyed a bunch of meals at Star of India and the crazy owner always makes dinner a fun experince. Italian-I used to really enjoy The River Cafe but on my last few visits it had become a little worn from all of the popularity. I think they still try hard there but the kitchen doesn't cook with the same level of intensity that it used to. Zafferano is good but not worth all the raves it gets. I mean there must be 25 places just like it in NYC. I haven't been to Assagi but despite raves from the ciritcs, I hear mixed things. Otherwise I think Italian food in London is edible, but pitiful. French-I never eat French when in London since I am usually on my way to, or from France. But on the rare occassion I've gone to say Brasserie St. Quentin, I've always though the cooking a bit uninspired. Maybe things are too proper in London to cook French bistro food where you need a certain zest (no pun intended.) So French is edible but not sought after. I haven't yet gone to Club Gascon though and I hear it's really good. I did manage to eat at Marco Pierre White's when he was at The Hyde Park Hotel and The Oak Room and I thought both meals were great. Modern British-Modern British is the oddest category of food around. It's sort of French that is modified to British standards, but it seems to have added this mitteleuropa element to it that I can't figure out where it comes from. It's the modern day version of what used to be called "Continental Cuisine" in the states (which was really just a combination of French and Italian cuisine)but that's been done already and sine London is arguably a bigger melting pot (at least for business visitors if not truly for immigration), they have come up with this funny cuisine. Of the Modern British restaurants, I used to love Alastair Little when he enjoyed cooking. And Kensington Place was always a good place for a meal but they now seem tired there as well. But places like Launceston Place, The Square etc. are no better than good, and reach very good only on their best nights. They are never great. But speaking of Launceston Place, I've dined there quite often as my London wine friends like going there and they allow us BYOB in their downstairs room. Kensington Place allows BYOB as well. By the way, I ate at the Fat Duck last May and had a spectacular meal. So I'm in favor of VERY Modern British cuisine. Hotel dining - London hotel dining is still the best around. I don't care how stuffy it might be at The Connaught or in The Dorchester dining room but they know how to turn a roast or leg of lamb there. The whole silly and fussy experience is a nice one, if one does it for the rare occassion. And although I do it less (as it's too formal,) in thinking about it a perfectly cooked Dover Sole with a good Bearnaise at a hotel trumps what you get at a place like The Square in my book. Asian Fusion - I love this category of food and I went to The Sugar Club and then Bali Sugar and I couldn't figure out what all the fuss was about. Union Pacific in NYC is far better than both of those places. And I hear Peter Gordon's new place is very mediocre. As for the rest of ethnic cuisine there, it's really patchy. Queens kills it. There is some good Thai food like the Bedlington Cafe in Chiswick (my offices used to be just past the Hogarth roundabout), but Sripaphai in Jackson Heights is much better. Chinese, not bad. Not as good as NYC, but then again, NYC pales to San Franciso when it comes to Chinese. And Nobu here kills Nobu there if you ask me. So do the Argentinian steak houses in Queens. They kill the places there. Fri Nov 30 18:12:07 -0800 2001 1377305 0 Steve Plotnicki 2 1377339 Now this is a reasoned post and one which inspires reasonable debate. It does not start with the rather sweeping and crass "all London restaurants are crappy/London has no ethnic diversity/the moon is made of green cheese" generalisations of Howler's laughable post. I can agree with huge amounts of your post Is London a "delicious" city? If that means is it predicated on food and eating in the same way that NYC, Paris or even calcutta is, then clearly not. It does not have the same vibrant culture of eating of any of those cities. London is predicated on being a cultural, modern and cutting edge city. I know from my business ( pop culture publishing ) that London is streets ahead of NYC theatrically and musically. In publishing terms, although we do not have the cuthroat atmosphere of NYC publishing houses, the creativity in London makes NYC look like Boise. It also offers a history that gives its existence a cultural resonannce that NYC wont have for another 1000 yrs. Where else can you walk two blocks and go from Roman to medieval to victorian to hi tech as I can from my flat. There is no where else on earth that offers that But to the food. Is it possible to eat well in London? of course. Does it require effort? Even more so than NYC because it is such a sprawling city. IS it posssible to eat well at what I call the "storefront" level? Yes, but that requires even more effort. London is ethnically diverse ( a legacy of empire ) that means that there are areas of superb food where, as Howler puts it food is cooked by natives for themselves. I would lay money that he has not been to the Cypriot areas of Green Lanes, the Kurdish areas of Dalston, the Jewish areas of Stamford hill and Golders green. Hell he probably couldn't find them in the A-Z You list certain food types and I agree with the majority of what you say Italian - there are great places but Italian food is not something we do well in London. There are high spots ( River cafe is not one of them ) but the truth is that most italian immigrants to London after the war became cafe owners ( that actually is a fact-they were offered grants to do so). That does leave us with great sarnie shops but not much else. There are however, some truly sensatioanl Italian deli's Indian - London has 1'000's of "indian" restaurants. By the law of averages, many of them are going to be bad, but to say that Queens has the licence on "natives cooking for themselves" as Howler does is pathetic. What does he think happens here? They bus scandanavians in to cook the chapati's Hotels _ these have changed out of all recognition. Places like the connaugh, The capital, the Landmark are now winning plaudits way above standard "carvery meals" an indeed Foiliage at The Mandarin, is one of the very best restaurants in London at the moment. Modern British - as with Modern American this is just a name that reviewers give. True modern British cooking is what Gary Rhodes does. The rest of it is a mish mash which leaves me cold. The same in NY ( where I must spend about three months a year ) where Modern American means the usual empty Ahi tuna/NY strip/Choc parfait combo Asian fusion - I find this whole fusion thing profoundly flawed, so don't really care. It is something to be avoided Chinese - I agree SF/Vancouver/Manchester knock both NYC and London into a cocked hat. There restaurant in Manchester you are thinking off is Yang Sing and it is amongst the top five in the world. Manchester has a bigger chinese population than London or NYC. Finally, where London does score higher in my opinion that NYC ( and I don't see this as a competition between the two as both are the two truly "great" cities on earth) is in the area of produce. I can find more variety of cheese in Neals Yard dairy, than I ever have in ALL my visits to NYC. Thanks for bringing some level of sensible discussion into this debate S Sat Dec 01 03:00:30 -0800 2001 1377335 0 Simon Majumdar 2 1377340 Now this is a reasoned post and one which inspires reasonable debate. It does not start with the rather sweeping and crass "all London restaurants are crappy/London has no ethnic diversity/the moon is made of green cheese" generalisations of Howler's laughable post. I can agree with huge amounts of your post Is London a "delicious" city? If that means is it predicated on food and eating in the same way that NYC, Paris or even Calcutta is, then clearly not. It does not have the same vibrant culture of eating of any of those cities. London is predicated on being a cultural, modern and cutting edge city. I know from my business ( pop culture publishing ) that London is streets ahead of NYC theatrically and musically. In publishing terms, although we do not have the cuthroat atmosphere of NYC publishing houses, the creativity in London makes NYC look like Boise. It also offers a history that gives its existence a cultural resonannce that NYC wont have for another 1000 yrs. Where else can you walk two blocks and go from Roman to Medieval to Victorian to hi tech as I can from my flat. There is no where else on earth that offers that But to the food. Is it possible to eat well in London? of course. Does it require effort? Even more so than NYC because it is such a sprawling city. IS it posssible to eat well at what I call the "storefront" level? Yes, but that requires even more effort. London is ethnically diverse, whatever Howler would argue ( a legacy of empire ) that means that there are areas of superb food where, as Howler puts it food is cooked by natives for themselves. I would lay money that he has not been to the Cypriot areas of Green Lanes, the Kurdish areas of Dalston, the Jewish areas of Stamford hill and Golders green. Hell he probably couldn't find them in the A-Z You list certain food types and I agree with the majority of what you say Italian - there are great places but Italian food is not something we do well in London. There are high spots ( River Cafe is not one of them ) but the truth is that most italian immigrants to London after the war became cafe owners ( that actually is a fact-they were offered grants to do so). That does leave us with great sarnie shops but not much else. There are however, some truly sensatioanl Italian deli's Indian - London has 1'000's of "indian" restaurants. By the law of averages, many of them are going to be bad, but to say that Queens has the licence on "natives cooking for themselves" as Howler does is pathetic. What does he think happens here? They bus scandanavians in to cook the chapati's? Of course not . There are manymany truly horrible bangla places, but equally there are as many places which offer family style food of superb quality. I am not a fan of Tamarind or Zaika. Hotels _ these have changed out of all recognition. Places like the Connaught, The Capital, the Landmark are now winning plaudits way above standard "carvery meals" an indeed Foiliage at The Mandarin, is one of the very best restaurants in London at the moment. Modern British - as with Modern American this is just a name that reviewers give. True modern British cooking is what Gary Rhodes does. The rest of it is a mish mash which leaves me cold. The same in NY ( where I must spend about three months a year ) where Modern American means the usual empty Ahi tuna/NY strip/Choc parfait combo Asian fusion - I find this whole fusion thing profoundly flawed, so don't really care. It is something to be avoided Chinese - I agree SF/Vancouver/Manchester knock both NYC and London into a cocked hat. There restaurant in Manchester you are thinking off is Yang Sing and it is amongst the top five in the world. Manchester has almost as big a chinese population NYC and much bigger than London. Does that mena that you can't eat good chinese food in London, patently not. Just you can eat better elsewhere Finally, where London does score higher in my opinion that NYC ( and I don't see this as a competition between the two as both are the two truly "great" cities on earth) is in the area of produce. I can find more variety of cheese in Neals Yard dairy, than I ever have in ALL my visits to NYC. The lack of good quality organic produce and meat is to America's shame and don't even get me started on fish in NYC. Thanks for bringing some level of sensible discussion into this debate S Sat Dec 01 03:06:49 -0800 2001 1377335 0 Simon Majumdar 3 1377345 "London is predicated on being a cultural, modern and cutting edge city." huh? interesting stuff you are smoking, simon. any city whose infrastructure is crumbling at the rate londons is can scarcely qualify as a 'modern and cutting edge city'. i won't bore the readers of these boards with a litany of depressing facts regarding the health service, schools and transportation system, but a search on google will easily yield the facts that britain has the worst quality of life amongst the western european nations. london is 'predicated' on tourism and finance. as most of the deeper pools of capital in europe are concentrated in germany (british capital is laughably irrelevant), it would have always made more sense for frankfurt to be the european financial center. for a lot of different reasons (americans prefer an english speaking town, their wives like shopping at harrods), london has held sway. but patience is running thin. "Where else can you walk two blocks and go from Roman to Medieval to Victorian to hi tech as I can from my flat. There is no where else on earth that offers that" and i live in a spectacular area of central london. however, my 'hood is a tiny part of a huge, crowded, unkempt and decaying city. so lets not generalise from trivially small areas. "London is ethnically diverse, whatever Howler would argue ( a legacy of empire )" i suppose you mean that as a legacy of the empire, its london which is ethnically diverse - not my argument. in any case, have you ever heard of assimilation? restauarants are kept honest by a discerning clientele; when that vanishes/assimilates or whatever, those wonderful restaurants disappear. otherwise, for example, punjab would have wonderful greek restaurants founded by the bactrian greeks. "There are manymany truly horrible bangla places, but equally there are as many places which offer family style food of superb quality." name two. (hint: ravi shankar isn't a good place to get dosas). "I can find more variety of cheese in Neals Yard dairy, than I ever have in ALL my visits to NYC. The lack of good quality organic produce and meat is to America's shame" at a not too exorbitant price, ANYTHING is available in nyc. thats what comes of being today's rome. but i'd agree that good quality organic produce is a little tougher to find than here. Sat Dec 01 09:11:07 -0800 2001 1377340 0 howler 4 1377347 "and i live in a spectacular area of central london. however, my 'hood is a tiny part of a huge, crowded, unkempt and decaying city. so lets not generalise from trivially small areas." Wasn't it your theory that you could take your "hood" ( you are by the way 40 yrs too old to use that word ) and extrapolate out to cover the whole city? Sat Dec 01 09:20:39 -0800 2001 1377345 0 Simon Majumdar 3 1377352 Simon-While I agree with you that Howler's view of London is exagerated, and part of that it to push your buttons, I must say that you are giving London dining more credit than it deserves. And I say that as someone who enjoys eating there. What really exposes a city's culinary culture is what they serve, and what people eat for lunch. London is one of the toughest places in the world to eat a casual lunch that isn't a single piece of cheese, along with a single slice of tomato (the a pronounced as (ah, not eh), with some salad sauce dabbed on top, between two slices of white bread. That is just one example of something they find acceptable that would hardly be acceptable in any other major city. I think it's a function of what the masses will put up with. For some reason, the Brits took it in stride when a few hundred years ago the upper classes told them to eat slop. The French wouldn't take the same crap from their upper classes so they did away with them. The result was they have a tradition of a plentiful table and the Brits do not. I think that bit of British history impacts on every aspect of food there (and also life in general.) And the result is that in general food is inferior on every level. As for pop culture, I happen to be in the pop culture business and I can have an entirely different conversation between how pop culture works in the U.S. vs the U.K. But I find pop culture in the U.K. to be more about fashion than actually being sustainable culture. Sat Dec 01 12:48:15 -0800 2001 1377340 0 Steve Plotnicki 4 1377353 "But I find pop culture in the U.K. to be more about fashion than actually being sustainable culture." you can substitute anything you want for the phrase 'pop culture' in that sentence and it'll be correct. Sat Dec 01 13:12:37 -0800 2001 1377352 0 howler 4 1377354 If this was true,why is the biggest lunchtime queue in Paris outside the Champs branch of Marks & Sparks to buy brit sarnies. Riddle me that Pop culture guy. S Sat Dec 01 14:18:18 -0800 2001 1377352 0 Simon Majumdar 5 1377356 why is the biggest lunchtime queue in Paris outside the Champs branch of Marks & Sparks to buy brit sarnies. Because the Brits don't know how to eat well EVEN in a country with good food. Believe me, I've had my fair share of Brits working for me and they used to pine for mushy peas. Can you imagine? Im fact, they used to head over to Tea & Sympathy on Hudson Street for lunch sometimes when they had the urge to eat the glop you guys grow up on. Look you don't need to be defensive about the food in Britain but it is what it is. People always rave about the food in Boston but I always found it flat, except for a few places. Well I was recently having dinner at Radius in Boston, which is reputedly the best place in town. The chef/owner who was originally a New Yorker until a few years ago came out to speak to us. Of course the topic got around to comparing food in Boston vs NY and he admitted that in general the food in Boston just isn't as good as the food in NY. Why? According to him, except for fish and shellfish, the growing seasons are shorter so nothing is quite as ripe as what you get in New York. But if you were to read any guidebook to restaurants in Boston, from the ratings one would think that the quality of the food there is as good as it is in NYC. Well it isn't. I find this phenomenon (people zealous about their local cuisine) to not be one that Londoners have exclusivity on. People who live in San Francisco are always raving about the local food but to be honest about it, it's mediocre, except for the unbelieveable Chinese food. But they do have great ingredients out there, but I haven't yet seen a chef turn them into a masterpiece. But you can eat a great, simply coooked meal at the Cafe at Chez Panisse made from fantastic ingredients. Los Angeles is the same if you ask me. Phenomenol sushi that they get from local fisherman. But ask them to cook at the same level as Jean-Georges and they throw up a brick. Miami is different and is a town with excellent food. That's because they have a demographic that matches NYC but with a heavy South American component thrown into the mix which they seem to have integrated into their local cuisine. A town where Arroz con Pollo and Chicken in the Pot not only co-exist, but are almost interchangeable. Now that's a city with a successful cuisine. But maybe it will make you feel better for me to say that my own hometown is full of gastronomic mediocrity too. We have no shortage of our own versions of places like The Square (Union Square Cafe, Gotham etc.) but I have to admit I find the way they have organized their cuisine to be far better than their British counterparts have organized theirs. One day, the British version of contemporary urban dining may well catch up to the level it has reached here. But it will take a good 20 years if you ask me. First the general populace has to stop eating those dastardly single slice cheese sandwiches. You know England is the only country where you can pass by one of those kabob places, ask the person you're walking down the street with if they have ever eaten there and hear a reply of "I don't eat mystery meat." Then the same exact person turns the corner, walks into a pub or Indian restaurant and orders a lunch of lamb stew or lamb curry that is nothing more than wet mystery meat. Sat Dec 01 15:57:57 -0800 2001 1377354 0 Steve Plotnicki 6 1377362 Er... The queue in gay paris is full of Frenchies. M&S sarnies are very hip. go figure Also why are their entire threads on the Manhattan board in praise of that other UK chain Pret a Manger. could sarnies in NYC, just not be very good? Just as I can't ( and don't - our sniping is reserved for this site) take howler too seriously as he thinks there is such a word as "unedible" I have to apply the same to you for the unforgivable use of the phrase "comtemporary urban dining" Let me guess, you're in marketing, right? I agree with you on the mystery meat, but in return I give you the mystery cheese of NYC. Provolone, American swiss er galvanised rubber. It is hard to defend a country whose government does not think its people are grown up enough to eat raw milk cheese :)S Sun Dec 02 02:26:28 -0800 2001 1377356 0 Simon Majumdar 7 1377365 Simon-I'm a proprieter. But one of the things I do is work in the marketing side of my businesses. As for your taking task with the various words or phrases that Howler and I have used here, I can respond by saying that in an Internet debate, one knows that the other side is losing when the debate shifts to your choice of words, instead of it being about the substance of the issue. Having said that, I think "contemporay urban dining" was a good choice to decribe it but I will give you license to coin a different phrase if you would like. French cheese selection in the U.S. is spotty. And if it isn't spotty, it isn't anywhere as fresh as what you can get in Europe. I buy camembert from Le Chatelaine (raw milk) over here and a)you can't always get it and b)it quite often is overripe for consumption, at least the way I like it. But if you walk into a good affineur in Paris, he will have camembert in every stage of evolution. And if you want one that will be perfect a week from Thursday, voila. While the cheese selection in London is better than it is here, it isn't as good as it is in France. But we are starting to have really good homegrown cheeses here. Or haven't you tried a Humboldt Fog yet? As for processed cheese, there isn't a single country where they don't propel the stuff on their populace, even France and Italy. It's just that I think the Brits have the winning entry in this category because they have managed to create a whole sandwich around a SINGLE PIECE of processed cheese. Sun Dec 02 08:51:58 -0800 2001 1377362 0 Steve Plotnicki 8 1377368 The point about the use of words and the phrase Contemporary Urban Dining is a gag. It is called humour. I know that doesn't happen too much in America. It is meant to lighten the tone. Quit being so earnest:)or do I mean American Britain may have the single sliced sarnie. America, however invented Kraft cheese slices. It is a moot point who is worse the one who invented the gun or the one who uses it. Both of us, I guess. I was just talking to an american about Brits craving mushy peas in the US and he answered "yes but every American in London craves Kraft Mac & Cheese" what it means is that we all have "glop" that we are brought up with and when away from home we long for things that give us a sense of place. And yes I have had fog cheese and very good it was to. My point was that there is good and bad and there are things we have here which you can't get and vice versa, my argument was not with you. Your arguments have been reasoned and valid. My argument has been with the otherwise estimable Howler who as you say gets his kicks "pushing buttons" I do however rather enjoy it S Sun Dec 02 11:14:55 -0800 2001 1377365 0 Simon Majumdar 9 1377376 Simon-We have humour in America too, except the humour is here is funny. As for mushy food, you have to remember, much of what is considered "American Cuisine" is based on mushy British cooking. But I will take your example of Macaroni & Cheese and raise you one. Real Macaroni & Cheese is a French dish, like the type you get in a Bouchon in Lyon. Perfectly cooked Pates with fantastic cheese, some strips or cubes of jambon and a little jus de boeuf drizzled atop to add flavor. Now how many great French dishes like that did the English kill with their overcooking and poor ingredients before America even existed? I can't begin to list them but it is a long list. I always wondered why when the English had access to the same fish from the same water that the French had, their Soup de Possions sucked while the French made one of staggering depth? I never could quite undertand this phenomenon but it's not exclusive to England. You can be in the Southwest of France and the bread is great but cross the border into Catalunya and the bread is ordinary. Why is it that the Catalans put up with that? Same in London. Can't anyone over there figure out how to drive a truck to France each week and buy wheat for bread? Sun Dec 02 15:21:49 -0800 2001 1377368 0 Steve Plotnicki 10 1377378 Steve, Sorry to intrude on the discussion with a minor technical point, but we ask that you please don't change subject titles unless discussion has digressed. Titles like "Ah yes but..." or "Actually" make it impossible for the majority of our users, who use HotPosts (see our home page), to determine what the discussion is about, because HotPosts shows them postings without the context of the thread. Furthermore, since the world's a big place, chowhounds could use as much specific, unchatty info as possible in the titles on this International message board (to determine what's about where). Geographical I.D. would certainly be helpful. Sun Dec 02 15:49:48 -0800 2001 1377376 2 The Chowhound Team 11 1377379 Chowhound team - If anything, the change of header in response to a post is anything but capricious. They are well thought through and add panache to the thread. But if you insist, I will refrain from this practice. But it certainly makes for a less interesting board. Sun Dec 02 16:22:47 -0800 2001 1377378 0 Steve Plotnicki 12 1377381 Sorry, no editorial statement intended. Not saying your recent subject titles, such as 'How about the 7th' or "Ah yes but..." or "Actually" lacked charm or wit. "Capricious" just described a habit of changing titles frequently in a chatty manner rather than to label and identify the subject of a conversation. Since there are many messages posted on the site, and the organization is inherently a bit chaotic, its important for titles to be informative, as courtesy to those surfing and trying to select threads of interest. Also, as said previously, most users read the boards using HotPosts, so a subject title like "Actually" needlessly frustrates efforts to determine what a thread is about. And in a board covering so much ground, that's of particularly concern. Hope this is clear. We certainly don't want a less interesting discussion, we just ask for you to put the interesting material in the message body itself. Thank you for your cooperation! Sun Dec 02 16:51:05 -0800 2001 1377379 2 The Chowhound Team 10 1377386 I am guessing you, like Howler stick in your own little bubble when in London. Chiswick from what I read. You really need to travel more. Hogarth roundabout eh? That's living alright If you think you can't get good fish in London..... try getting it in NYC. The US should be in court for its crimes against halibut. As for bread. I think your views of France are slightly rose coloured. Too much watching Jean De Florrette perchance. One of the great debates in France at the moment is the huge increase in sales of what they are calling ( and I am not sure of the case or spelling ) Le Paine Americen" i.e sliced wonderbread. As with so much in France, they are fighting US cultural imperialism. The same is true with Pizza, Chinese food ( chop suey anyone?), and soooo many others all taken lovingly to the bosom of america and well and truly buggered up. American humour "funny". You will never win that one. We send you our 25 yr old comedies and they become huge hits and I have seen "married with Children! S Mon Dec 03 04:17:52 -0800 2001 1377376 0 Simon Majumdar 11 1377388 Simon-My offices were in Chiswick but I gave them up. When I'm in town I usually stay in Mayfair. But I stayed in Holland Park for a number of years before that. That was quite nice. Most of my business dealings are off of Charlotte Street, just around the corner from Pied a Terre. But I've been visiting London for 24 years, and I've roamed the town from Greenwich to Richmond, Camden to Brixton. As for the rest of this debate about food, it's difficult having a discussion when you insist on using each country's worst examples as a benchmark. I mean to use processed French bread as a retort to my pointing out that real baguettes are delicious is silly. When I say "French bread" I mean the real McCoy which is one of the most wonderous and delicious food items in the world. That there are French people who like the processed stuff doesn't detract from the the deliciousness of the real thing. And pointing out that the U.S. doesn't do a good job with fish, while true, doesn't make English fish taste any better. The problem with British cuisine is that there aren't any world class signature foods or signature dishes, at least ones that are very good. With all other culinary cultures, I can name a number of dishes that come to mind that I want to eat when I visit. In France one is awaiting their cassoulet or choucroute. Or a paella in Spain. An osso bucco or some variation on risotto in Italy. Even in America, a steak or a lobster. Now what is it exactly that we are all rushing to eat when we get to Britain? Finnan Haddie? No, no, no, it's Haggis, that's it. If you didn't have good berrys for a 2 1/2 week period in June, would you have anything to talk about? Mon Dec 03 05:06:55 -0800 2001 1377386 0 Steve Plotnicki 12 1377391 Steve, sweets. it was you who brought mushy peas into the equation. If you will pick dishes like that no wonder you have to perish in return fire I wonder what you have eaten over here. British food - no such thing of course. There is regional food. This country as with the US in not one homogenous mass, it is a vast variety of different places each with different foods. Food here was never the equal of France in its complexity, much of that is because animal husbandry in Britain was the superior to that in france, so meats were excellent and simply roasted. Game in the UK is the equal or indeed better than anywhere else in the world. I can pop out now to any one of three buthcers and get teale, snipe, mallard, etc. That I have never been able to do in France Over time this degenerated, mainly because of the war when good ingresients were replaced by poor but readily available substitutes. Butter with emulsifiers etc. After the war there was 15 years of rationing and the industrialists realised that they made a lot more money not using good products because the taste of the nation had withered. It has taken 30 years to get back to this level, but that does not mean that great food and great dishes do not exist It is the same in the US. There are superb dishes which have been bastardised by industrialists. Take hamburgers, when made properly, superb. Ditto meatloaf or fried chicken, but over time people have become used to a gradual downgrading of the food on offer. In the US now, the two most used words in the vocabulary are "super-sized" The same here. The majority of people want quantity, not quality. That is why sites like this exist. We are as mad as hell and we are not going to take it anymore. I have huge lists of things that I have to take to my American friends on my US trips and they have lists of things they bring over to me. when they are here they search out Good Bitter beers ( and milds ) Good Black pudding ( not Boudin ) Game Proper undyed kippers Steamed puddings ( I am sending 5 christmas puddings over to the US this week- why? because they are delicious and what is on offer in the US is a pale imitation ) Good bacon Cornish pasties Etc. It is patently ridiculous to say there is just haggis any more than me saying I go to the US and all I can find is BBQ. I still think you need to get out more when you are in the UK. You wont be mugged if you go East of Tottenham Ct Rd. S. Mon Dec 03 05:39:53 -0800 2001 1377388 0 Simon Majumdar 13 1377401 Simon-I will take BBQ over Haggis anyday. Otherwise, the list of things you write that someone MUST HAVE in Britain makes me want to give up my cookies. I will stand behind my original statement. When one visits a country, it either smells delicious or not. France smells delicious, same with Italy, Spain too. On the list of not smelling delicious are Germany, Austria, and unfortunately Britain. I guess those Saxons were never much when it came to cooking. Mon Dec 03 09:18:41 -0800 2001 1377391 0 Steve Plotnicki 14 1377402 I definitely would NOT put AUSTRIA in the same league as Germany and Britain. Here in Austria good food has the same importance for the average consumer as in France or Italy. Just avoid the tourist traps, which are run mainly for the German and British tourists ;-) Austria is great for any chowhound, and here you can find real treasures in very small villages as well as in the towns or in Vienna. Just get the recent issue of Gault Millau and start checking... Michael Mon Dec 03 09:43:42 -0800 2001 1377401 0 Michael 15 1377406 Michael-Sorry to disagree but the problem with Austria and Germany is that much of the cooking uses lard as cooking fuel. "Delicious" cuisines all use olive oil, butter or poultry fat. That smell of lard permeates those countries and in my book makes them "not delicious." I have to say that there are always exceptions to the rule. Springtime white asparagus in Germany served with some butter sauce and some ham is wonderous. But it's because it's boled in water and lard is nowhere to be found. Mon Dec 03 11:57:08 -0800 2001 1377402 0 Steve Plotnicki 16 1377411 It seems to me that in your arguement you are overlooking the entire baking and desserts element of cuisine, which in general is much more highly developed in Northern Europe (UK, Germany, Austria, etc.) than in Southern Europe. France, obviously, is the exception, but it includes elements from both Southern and Northern Europe. Mon Dec 03 12:25:19 -0800 2001 1377406 0 rjka 17 1377415 I'm overlooking baking and desserts because they are baking, not cooking. Yes there are delicious pastries in Austria. But that doesn't counter the vile smell that is prominent in restaurants in Salzburg or Vienna. If you want to see proof of what I'm talking about, get a copy of the new Zagat Guide to dining in European cities. Aside from the cities in France, Italy and Spain, see how many of the top restaurants in Northern European cities have highly rated restaurants where the local cuisine is featured. I almost laughed out loud when in Frankfurt one of the top 10 rated restaurants was Morton's Steakhouse, a chain from the U.S. Mon Dec 03 13:02:55 -0800 2001 1377411 0 Steve Plotnicki 18 1377416 Sir, I salute you for being brave enough to mention Zagat in the context of this discussion, but surely you can see why that volume would list a US establishment? Let me also commend you for not mentioning mad cow in the course of the meat debate. Lay on! Mon Dec 03 14:54:01 -0800 2001 1377415 0 michael (mea culpa) 19 1377418 "Sir, I salute you for being brave enough to mention Zagat in the context of this discussion" Michael-One can't have fear of popular things. Once upon a time, I used to use excessive popularity as a way of dismissing things, not only restaurants. But I've gotten over that theory. And for all of their faults, guides like Zagat do a fairly good job seperating the basic wheat from chaffe in any given city. Mon Dec 03 15:15:38 -0800 2001 1377416 0 Steve Plotnicki 20 1377419 I'm pretty sure Michael's posting was intended as just an amusing in-passing post. I'm hoping this won't escalate into that same tired debate we've done about a zillion times. Especially not here, since we try to keep the regional boards chowcentric. ciao Mon Dec 03 15:21:01 -0800 2001 1377418 0 Jim Leff 21 1377421 Well.... I was trying to be amusing, yet at the same time make the point that the Zagat Guide might not be the strongest, most unbiased support for the proposition that the lard used in the cuisines of Northern European countries is what makes them offensive/nondelicious vis a vis that of Southern Europe. Mon Dec 03 16:56:29 -0800 2001 1377419 0 michael (mea culpa) 20 1377422 One can't have fear of popular things. Once upon a time, I used to use excessive popularity as a way of dismissing things, not only restaurants. But I've gotten over that theory. Uhh, not to be facetious, but Barry Manilow, etc., et al. Mon Dec 03 17:14:18 -0800 2001 1377418 0 michael (mea culpa) 18 1378514 I'm a little late...but just wanted to note that the Morton's in Frankfurt is not part of the American chain. There are two of them in town, and they are family-owned. I have been to both many times and give them a solid 19 by NY Zagat standards. Sad thing is, it still makes the top ten in that town. You are correct, German food can't compare with France, Spain, or Italy. Thu Jan 31 16:29:47 -0800 2002 1377415 0 Flip 16 1377413 I gently disagree with the generalization that delicious cuisines are monopolized by olive oil, butter and poultry fat. Char Kway Teow, a dish of fried flat rice noodles common in Singapore, is nothing without lard (the other essentials being the luxuriantly sticky black sweet sauce made from fermented soy, and juice from cockles.) Also, bowls of noodles, served with the broth on the side, while not cooked with lard, are best with a dash of the "good stuff." (Especially when it comes with the crunchy bits with just that satisfying resilience in the middle when one chews down.) And there's also sesame oil... Mon Dec 03 12:38:44 -0800 2001 1377406 0 Limster 17 1377414 Limster-I didn't say that Southern European cuisnes are the *only* delicious ones. Of course there are many Asian cuisines which are delicious that have nothing to do with olive oil/butter/poultry fat. But the entire cooking strategy doesn't depend on the cooking fuel. Mexican cuisine is delicious and is quite often based on pork fat. The Cubans cook well based on pork fat as well. It must be the quality of lard used in Northern European cuisines which is offensive. Mon Dec 03 12:57:32 -0800 2001 1377413 0 Steve Plotnicki 16 1377473 Steve, Sorry,. but the times where lard is used in Austria is over and gone... Actually those restaurants are now kind of a secret tip for connoisseurs of real country-style cuisine. The gastro-revolution has taken place in Austria about 15 years ago, and: forget Zagat. Just read the recent Gault Millau (of course the problem might be it is not yet available in English). I would recommend to try the ten top restaurants mentioned in Gault Millau and then you would would admit that eating out in Austria currently is more fun and much less expensive than in most places in Europe including PARIS. And you will find excellent lard-free food even in very inexpensove places. Of course you have to know where to go, but this is the value of the guides... Michael Wed Dec 05 15:16:17 -0800 2001 1377406 0 Michael 17 1377519 Michael-It isn't that they don't use lard in the better restaurants, it's that they use it everywhere else. The entire country smells of it. Just like London still smells like pub food when you walk its streets, and Paris smells like a baguette. Fri Dec 07 13:41:30 -0800 2001 1377473 0 Steve Plotnicki 10 1377387 Sorry, but you're wrong about Mac and Cheese being French in origin. As a food historian I can tell you that the dish was first known in England in the 14th century but was not actually widely prepared until the 18th century when it acquired it's name 'maccaroni cheese'. Maccaronis were 18th cenury dandies, who dressed and acted in the Italian/French style - the dish takes its name from this, since it re-entered cuisine via the Grand Tourists returning from Italy. British 18th century macaroni cheese is made not only with cheddar cheese but parmesan cheese (which was available in Britain from the 17th century), in addition to mustard, nutmeg, and breadcrumbs. If anyone is interested in the recipe I will post it. I'm sure there are many different ways of doing mac and cheese (Kraft's version being one of them)- in the same way that there a many different ways of doing lasagne, pizza or any number of 'favourites'. Mon Dec 03 04:43:57 -0800 2001 1377376 0 Hallie 11 1377389 Hallie-Thanks for the input as it will help me even further in my debate with Simon. But I didn't say Maccaroni and Cheese is French in origin. I said "real Maccaroni and Cheese is a French dish." Real meaning *good*, as in the way the French prepare it. Just comparing how the French make it (some ham and a little beef gravy) and how the Brits prepare it (mustard, nutmeg and breadcrumbs, yuck)draws a proper contrast between the cuisines, since I assume the French Grand tourists were inspired the same way and created a version of their own. But tell me, and this might be a loaded question, why is the tradition of dining in Britain so poor compared to it's neighbor just a few hundred miles away? Mon Dec 03 05:19:10 -0800 2001 1377387 0 Steve Plotnicki 8 1377373 steve, a) best of luck trying to talk sense to simon ... b) where exactly is your favourite thai in london? i'd kill for decent thai; i'm getting desperate enough to find patara acceptable. Sun Dec 02 14:42:17 -0800 2001 1377365 0 howler 9 1377375 Howler-Don't know if you've ever been to Sripaphai in Woodside but it's Thai of unimaginable proportions. Like it's in the running for best ethnic restaurant anywhere. I haven't found anything as good in London. But what I did find more than acceptable is The Bedlington Cafe out in Chiswick on Fauconberg Road. If you're heading out of London you turn left at the Hogarth Roundabout. When you get to the end of Chiswick House, bear right. It's about a 1/2 to mile in from there. It's a nonpdescript place in a small shopping street and is a Thai restaurant masquereding as a coffe shop in the daytime. I haven't been in years though. Do you not like Busabong Tree? I haven't been but it looks good. Sun Dec 02 15:09:58 -0800 2001 1377373 0 Steve Plotnicki 6 1377385 I say old chap,steady on.What's wrong with mushy peas? Mon Dec 03 03:59:09 -0800 2001 1377356 0 Tony Finch 2 1377343 "Howler-I think the problem with London dining is that in general, food isn't delicious there." unfortunately, thats correct. "Haven't tried Noura but will go when I'm over in February. But is it related to the Noura in Paris, which is a swanky, upscale Lebanese traiteur in the 8th arr.?" same group. but the paris noura is nowhere close in deliciousness to the london one. "And I don't see what the big deal about the Dosa Hut is. If it wasn't on the block of the Hindu Temple it wouldn't get all of the hype." have you tried their rava masala dosas? very, very good - and very close to home cooking standards. most dosa restaurants serve you thick, indifferent, greasy, batter-y dosas; dosa hut gives them to you crisp and light. give them another try - 11.30 saturday morning, say. "Bombay Brasserie is a fun place, and I would never complain about being invited there for dinner, but one can hardly say the cooking is inspired." no, i'd agree with that. but make no mistake - it is the real thing, competently made. "Zafferano is good but not worth all the raves it gets. I mean there must be 25 places just like it in NYC. I haven't been to Assagi but despite raves from the ciritcs, I hear mixed things. Otherwise I think Italian food in London is edible, but pitiful." "But places like Launceston Place, The Square etc. are no better than good, and reach very good only on their best nights." hear, hear. "As for the rest of ethnic cuisine there, it's really patchy. Queens kills it." and thats the problem. i've been spoilt by queens. Sat Dec 01 08:36:21 -0800 2001 1377335 0 howler 3 1377344 "and thats the problem. i've been spoilt by queens." Howler, sweetheart, this is a food board, there is no room for tales of your sexual awakenings:) S Sat Dec 01 08:38:23 -0800 2001 1377343 0 Simon Majumdar 2 1377355 Steve, did we meet at a dinner at Launceston Place a couple years ago? A Helmsian evening? Sat Dec 01 15:04:16 -0800 2001 1377335 0 Melanie Wong 3 1377357 Melanie-Yes downstairs at Launceston Place with Robert. You brought some funny bottle of Sauvignon Blanc from Mendocino. How have you been? Do you see Robert at all? He and I went to the Marche au Vin in Ampuis together last January and had loads of fun. And we had a killer meal at The Fat Duck last May. They let us BYO there and the wines (and food) were both phenomenol. Sat Dec 01 16:00:33 -0800 2001 1377355 0 Steve Plotnicki 4 1377430 This is so funny! We've both been posting here for awhile, but I didn't put 2+2 together until you mentioned wine dinners at Launceston Place. I don't think I ever knew your last name. When Howler mentioned it as his neighborhood restaurant in his earlier post, I was thinking that I should introduce him to Robert so that he can console himself with some nice wines even if he can't find the kind of food he craves. Rabid fans of Jouguet and Huët should meet, don't you think? Did Robert forward my notes on the wines that evening? If not, I'll try to find them for you. I brought a Russian River Valley Pinot Noir and the Yorkville Cellars "Eleanor of Aquitaine" SB/Sem in the pretentious bottle. I later found out that the winery's owner is English. You brought the Shafer, right? Wine of the night for me was the old Gruaud-Larose, think it was 1962. I don't remember much about the food at Launceston Place. What I do remember was that the service was very good and it was unbearably hot downstairs. Another friend who entertains there often for business says it's almost always stifling hot. Robert and Tru were in San Francisco in April. It was her first trip here and Robert said it was his first opportunity to see anything other than the route between Nob Hill hotels and Financial District from his early business trips here. We had dinner at The French Laundry on my birthday. Spring of last year, I met up with Robert in Burgundy for about 4 days. Iirc, he had foie gras each time we dined together. (g) One of the preps was especially delicious with a botrytis-affected Macon from Thevenet (whose renegade ways should be worshipped). I was in Ampuis, actually all of the Rhone Valley, this March. The 99 Cote Roties are gorgeous, aren't they? I left a couple bottles of Zin behind in Robert's cellar...thought I'd be visiting London again long before now... (sigh) Tue Dec 04 02:37:37 -0800 2001 1377357 0 Melanie Wong 5 1377432 "..I was thinking that I should introduce him to Robert so that he can console himself with some nice wines even if he can't find the kind of food he craves." "...thought I'd be visiting London again long before now... (sigh)" so why don't you ;) Tue Dec 04 04:18:37 -0800 2001 1377430 0 howler 5 1377439 Melanie-Gee I thought you knew it was me. So much for assumptions. I was back in Cote Rotie in May and the '99's were indeed great. But I have to say the '98's are really good too. I'm going to Chateauneuf in February as I hear the 2000's might even be better than the '98's. Gee this wine thing is getting really difficult. The amount of wine one has to buy to take advantage of all the good vintages in various parts of the world is staggering. The food at Launceston Place isn't memorable because, well it isn't memorable. It is approriate to the setting though. But I will be in London on Feb 13 and 14 so if you are going to go, that would be a good time as I'm sure Robert will organize a meal where we will drain a ridiculous number of bottles. Tue Dec 04 08:03:44 -0800 2001 1377430 0 Steve Plotnicki 1 1377336 I live in Washington, D. C. I spent a week in London several months ago and did everything in my power to eat my way through the city as I have with most of the larger cities in Europe and North America. Having said that: 1. Tante Claire was somewhat of an overpriced disappointment. 2. Zaika was superb. 3. Vama was superb. 4. Zafferano was equal to a one or two star in Italy. 5. Pret e Manger makes a good sandwich. 6. Fish and chips are available to you that on this side we can only dream about. Yes, London is horribly expensive. I believe (sp.)Wilmslow Road (Shere Khan) in Manchester has Indian food to rival London at literally half the price. There is also a great Chinese restaurant in downtown Manchester. Of course I would fly from D. C. to Manchester just for a good plate of tikka masala so a premium price in London, for me, is still a relative bargain. Zafferano is also expensive compared to Italy but, still, I think worth it. Tante Claire? No. I have not been to Gordon Ramsey but I can't imagine that it would even begin to approach Alaine Ducasse in New York. My guess based on my personal experiences in London is that you really haven't allowed yourself to experience the kind of meals that are readily available. If I can learn of these restaurants and experiences from the other side of an ocean they certainly are available to you. Fri Nov 30 18:25:35 -0800 2001 1377305 0 Joe