260129 Mon May 21 10:51:32 -0700 2001 8 26 International 0 1374841 I read somewhere that Heston Blumenthal is writing a cookbook. Does someone know if he would have professional assistance? Or will he just lock himself up and bang it out on his own? I am curious because his grammar and spelling are surprisingly poor for a writer. Simon M, you write cookbooks don't you? Perhaps you could shed some light on this. Mon May 21 10:51:32 -0700 2001 0 Kathy Gude 1 1374842 Actually, I don't have the talent to write, so I publish instead ( those who can, do and those who can't etc ) In my experience of chefs writing books, the level of editing required is far in excess of any other genre. In many cases ( no names, no pack drill ) the submission of the manuscript is cause for much hilarity as we try and decipher a text which seems like a chapter from Molesworth's "How to Be Topp!!" Good food writers on the other hand can be a joy to work with as they have the knowledge and the discipline to write to brief. Also, the ego/talent ratio is directly inverse as sections of the submitted first draft of The Naked Chef, which have been doing the publishing rounds, go to prove. Hysterically funny reading. Mon May 21 11:27:11 -0700 2001 1374841 0 Simon Majumdar 2 1374856 Man, are you guys harsh!!! I also note an inexplicable and disproportionate amount of hostility toward HB. Almost as much as Gordon Ramsay! As mentioned I've never eaten at the Fat Duck. But from his posts, at least he appears to a) be serious about what he does b) put the customer's taste buds and sense of adventure first c) be interested in evolving (also a trait of someone who's customer oriented). Not to put too fine a point on it, but it's a pleasure to hear of a chef who reads anything at all let alone Harold McGee. And much of the diatribe herewith seems to come from people who have eaten at Fat Duck over and over - true gluttons for punishment I guess! On a lighter note, ..as a writer, I'd be reticent to show you guys a post-it note. :-) Isn't it the editor's job to make the writer sound as good and professional as possible - whether that means stylistic, substantive or cosmetic edits? I get frustrated daily by articles in respectable publications which contain silly spelling and grammatical errors, mixed metaphors, split infinitives (to boldly go) and - most irritating - misuse of it's and its, there, they're and their. That's down to editors who have fallen down on the job, not to writers! Tue May 22 06:55:05 -0700 2001 1374842 0 magnolia 3 1374857 I am not going to comment on HB as I have never been to The Fat Duck nor El Bulli and quite frankly, if people could only post on here if their grammar was perfect, I would be down to one post every six months ( I know, wishful thinking for all of you ) Gordon Ramsay deserves everything he gets. He is a poltroon, talented but a poltroon none the less As for writers, if you saw the drivel I have seen from "authors" I have commissioned ( and paid good sums of money to ) you would understand. It is NOT, REPEAT NOT the editors job to turn a sow's ear into something not quite so much resembling a sow's ear. It is the author's job to deliver a coherent manuscript on whatever subject they have professed to be expert about AND to attempt to make it look like it has not been written in the last three hours before the deadline, by their three year old son, in crayon. An editor's job is to make sure what is eventually delivered is vaguely in line with the brief and then to make sure it goes through the inordinate number of stages from delivery to publication in the short schedule all illustrated books are forced to work on. Don't get me wrong, I have some superb authors on my nascent list and I am a great defender of good ones. Food writers are often OK, as indeed most journo's are as they would not get any work if they could not delivery decent copy on time. but, chefs, on the other hand. Don't even begin to get me started. When I worked on any cookery books, ( which was not that often, thankfully ) we usually allowed £5,000 extra for a good writer to translate what came in into English. Tue May 22 07:33:40 -0700 2001 1374856 0 Simon Majumdar 4 1374866 "we usually allowed £5,000 extra for a good writer to translate what came in into English." I'm available to edit. That's better money that most of what I get for writing! And I can translate French drivel too. :-) Tue May 22 12:47:18 -0700 2001 1374857 0 magnolia 3 1374867 Magnolia, a lot of the basic errors you cite (its/it's. their/there/they're, misspellings, etc.) are copyediting issues. They are equally prevalent in a lot of US periodical media, which are often the victims of tight deadlines and slashed production budgets. (I do find them egregious, though, especially in glossy monthlies.) I don't know the UK standards for magazine publishing, but I have been told that much less copyediting is the norm in the UK book business than in the US. Not having worked in the UK, I can't confirm this personally, but I've heard it from a number of managing editors here. BTW, cookbooks are notoriously difficult editorial jobs, even aside from the issue of chefs who can't write. Tue May 22 12:47:19 -0700 2001 1374856 0 Caitlin McGrath 4 1374886 Mea culpa, you're absolutely right. I should have made the distinction between the various kinds of editor (sub/copy/asst/etc.) and with a nod to Simon, book v periodical. Duly noted also the cookbook issue - I edit financial services and other technical documents/ articles and they are probably on a par with cookbooks in terms of labour-intensity. I do, though, try my best to make the writer sound like a human being and not like one of those instruction manuals that have been translated from Korean into Swedish into English by a piece of translation software. Anyway it is difficult to tell these days what the responsibility of each type of editor is, since there don't seem to be any set criteria or a requisite body of knowledge for each function. Anyway, none of this explains away the fact some of these particularly careless errors are being ignored - and they can even be picked up by conventional grammar checking software!!! make an otherwise good publication seem sloppy. At the very end, it's the top editor, I guess, who should be noticing when the people under her/him aren't doing their jobs properly. Someone has to strive for something better than mediocre! I get really paranoid - and annoyed - if I turn something in and it comes back from from the editor with "thanks - this is great" on it, especially if I've made errors and they end up in print. I feel it makes me look unprofessional and the paper too. Wed May 23 10:34:29 -0700 2001 1374867 0 magnolia 1 1374852 I've been following the attacks on Heston Blumenthal with mild curiosity. Slagging him off because of the spelling and grammar he uses in a post on a damn bulletin board is rather weak. I've been known to write a little bit and frankly I wouldn't waste time and effort turning in polished prose in a space like this, particularly if I was the recipient of the kind of bulging-eyed, sweaty-palmed attacks that have been fired off in his direction from these parts. j Tue May 22 04:20:16 -0700 2001 1374841 0 jayrayner 2 1374859 Jay, have you ever eaten at El Bulli? I don't know the answer but I would imagine not. Does it concern you that, amongst other things, Heston is transplanting the whole approach of this great original, and in so doing is being cited by many of your colleagues as a great original himself? If it doesn't it should do. At the very very least one expects a professional to know his subject, although to expect integrity would be a utopian bonus these days. Regarding bulging eyes and sweaty palms I am afflicted with neither, so might this be wishful thinking on you part? Tue May 22 09:04:21 -0700 2001 1374852 0 Michael Lewis