260001 Mon Mar 19 21:43:23 -0800 2001 25 26 International 0 1374228 after much debating over where to go, from africa to south america to central america to southeast asia to europe (actually, pretty much everywhere except cincinatti), eunice and i have decided on an andalusian tour of spain for our honeymoon. that was the easy part. now we need your help. where should we eat? we'll be starting in madrid, then hitting toledo, cordoba, seville (with side trips to carmona and jerez de la frontera and possibly arcos as well) and ending up in granada. i've read some of the earlier posts, but they're a bit dated so i was wondering what the latest and greatest was and if anyone's come up with some good finds lately. honeymoon's in november. not looking for anything specific other than great food, but we'd also love recommendations for one place to have a blowout feast (price no object). oh, and if you feel the urge, feel free to give general advice on traveling thru the region as well as it's our first time there - what to see, where to stay, what to do, etc. thanks a ton! wonki Mon Mar 19 21:43:23 -0800 2001 0 wonki 1 1374229 Wonki! Best wishes to you both. Start at the link I'm attaching about the Museum of Galician Bread in Madrid. This is one of my favorite "Special Reports". Perhaps you've seen this report already, but this is one of those very special places you'd walk by, if you didn't know it was there. When I go to another country, it's this sort of place that endears it to me, rather than a monument or cathedral. Anyway, have a look...pat Link: http://chowhound.com/writing/xose/pan_gallego/pan_gallego.html Mon Mar 19 22:04:26 -0800 2001 1374228 0 pat hammond 1 1374230 Good to see you surface with such wonderful news, Wonki! Congrats from NY! Mon Mar 19 22:10:45 -0800 2001 1374228 0 jen kalb 1 1374234 Congratulations! Can't remember enough specifics to give chow advice, but that region does have my favorite museum, devoted exclusively to honoring bulls who killed their matadors. It's in either Arcos (cute town, feels quite Moorish) or Ronda, probably the latter. Tue Mar 20 10:28:47 -0800 2001 1374228 0 Mary Shaposhnik 2 1375013 Congratulations! My SO [wife as of April 2001] and I went in and out through Madrid, and visited Cordoba - Granada - Almun~ecar - Ronda - Jerez de la Frontera - Cadiz - Sevilla. I wish I took notes on some of the better (not always more expensive) restaurants during our trip last May 2000. The museum to bullfighting with the bloody vests, tributes to dead fighters, and bulls heads that we saw was in Ronda, next to the historically important bullring. One of the more expensive meals (not for Manhattan standard, though) of the whole trip was dinner a few feet away from the museum at Restaurante Pedro Romero, Virgen de la Paz, 22 -- tel. 95 287 91 14 (glad I picked up a matchbook!). Nice ambiance and service, food was excellent, quite a few tourists in there (curse of a pretty restaurant). They were like an extension of the museum, and also had bull heads mounted and different bullfighting displays. Of all the cities we visited in this trip, we found Ronda to be the most romantic of all. Lots of great tapas in Granada, on the street perpendicular to the skinny road leading to the Alhambra (names escpaes me, but it was mentioned in the "Tales of...". Here's the warning: DO NOT DRINK FROM THE WATERS OF THE ALHAMBRA! My schweetie was so thristy at one point and decided to drink from one of those water faucets inside the complex, and by dinner time she was so sick and quite a mess for the next 3 days. [She is a doctor, she knew what hit her.] Needless to say, our eating opportunties were curtailed by this devastating development, relegating me to Pans & Company Bocadillos while she couldn't eat anything, and then transitioning to simple toast, then eventually to McPollos. The irony is not lost. Jerez de la Frontera was fun, and the Sandeman sherry tour was far more educational than the pseudo - Hollywood Tio Pepe tour. The former was quite simple like a grade school tour, but the sherries were excellent. The latter had mouse-drinking acrobatics, vats with names of celebrities, a mini-tram, fake small vineyard plot. But if you like sherry or even just wine, make sure to hit as many tours as time permits. I forgot the name of this nice local restaurant we ate at a couple of times that was always mobbed because "hay caracoles" -- it was so obviously the local favorite. They did weird things at one meal, like gave us red wine with ice cubes. The caracoles weren't the best, but the rest of food was excellent and the prices were low low low. Maybe ask some locals about which spots have good caracoles, assuming it was in season. This spot didn't take credit cards. Sevilla was one okay place after another, nothing grand and we didn't feel like spending like crazy. For lunch, Pizzeria San Marco was not bad for simple Italian stuff Americans seek -- pizza & pasta, in a nice interior (not fancy). But on our last two nights, we ate dinner at our [now] favorite spot which did cater to tourists (via an english language menu), but with local food prepared well! This place even had Sea Anemones, among other yummy treats. Very reasonable prices (borderline cheap), very friendly service! I think the place is called "Bodega Paco Gongora" but I am probably mistaking it for another establishment. It had a piano which was used to hold different wine/ sherry/ liquor bottles, and they also had a bulls head. On a non-food topic, we did not rent a car. We suffered like the masses and took lots and lots of buses (plus a couple of trains). We walked a lot. I experienced my first ever case of motion sickness on a bus towards Ronda, but nothing serious. But it was worth not having to think about parking. Also, watch out for mosquitos. I got bitten badly in Sevilla and eventually needed antibiotics. Hope this helps! van234 Manhattan (My first post here, although I've been reading this board for about 2 months now. A little shy of posting correct email address since I'm still getting SPAM from my old comp.risks and rec.skydiving posting days.) Fri Jun 08 03:13:58 -0700 2001 1374234 0 van234 3 1375014 Awesome first post. Welcome! I'm REALLY sorry about the health problems...the normal agita is "tapas tummy" from all the room-temp creamy items. Hope it didn't detract from your appreciation of the Al Hambra, one of the few tourist "destinations" I really really love. My Seville impression was better than yours, but as I'm sure you know, we judge cities by how we fare there. Trust me, though, there is great stuff in Seville. It takes some time to unlock, and there's always a certain amount of luck involved in traveling. Re: email, why not get a hotmail or yahoo email account to use for all 'net posting? that way you can protect your private email. Fri Jun 08 03:23:54 -0700 2001 1375013 0 Jim Leff 4 1375018 Thanks, and thanks for the hotmail idea, Jim! We are hoping to travel later this year (probably London) and are happy that we can now consult chowhound.com for ideas. One "expensive" (again not for Manhattan) restaurant in Sevilla we checked out was Rio Grande by the river... boo-ti-ful, but man those mosquitos get to you! The service was so-so, the food was so-so, but you get to see crazy tourists (like us) pedal down the river with those little built-for-2 boats with bicycle pedals. I would not go back to this restaurant, and would hit the tapas routes (as plenty of folks suggested here) and the lower-priced yummy restaurants (like our favorite Bodega Paco...). A place called Pez Espada is listed in some guidebooks -- it was okay and cheap, but nothing special...crowded. Going back to Jerez, I'm looking at some of our trip photos --the "hay caracoles" place's name is something "... Alegria" (the menu in the picture is obscured by gigantic fried squid rings). It was probably the best deal in town, if you don't mind going native and eating where the locals go, no credit cards, mostly outdoor seating (it's really like a bar that expanded to the sidewalk), no fancy tablecloth sort of deal. As with a lot of restaurants and tapas places we checked out, the sangria was from a mix. Hope this helps! van234 Manhattan (for 2 more weeks, I'm moving to Houston) Sat Jun 09 13:20:02 -0700 2001 1375014 0 van234 5 1375020 Sorry 'bout that Seville meal. But your intuition is correct. The expensive restaurants in Spain, with very few exceptions, are tourist traps (in the worst sense of the word), or just "pijo" (spendthrift yuppie) places. I've written about this elsewhere on site, but the thing about Spain is that even the relatively humble restaurants in Spain have a few good wine bottles and a few expensive dishes. And unlike in the states, there isn't that divide; the expensive side of cheap restaurants' menus aren't death traps; good places are good throughout their range. Spaniards love to throw caution to the wind and order expansive wine/food at drop of a hat if they're having fun, and even lowly tapas joints accomodate the impulse in style. The american concept of planning a shmancy meal doesn't plug in as well over there; the expensive places are not "special occasion" places, they serve other functions. Any restaurant serving food you like can yield up a special occasion on demand. You've got to be careful where you order your sangria, though it's generally a lot better in the south than in the north. So, did you fall in love with tortilla de patatas? Wed Jun 13 01:18:58 -0700 2001 1375018 0 Jim Leff 1 1374235 Sorry, but unless you're goin' to Galicia region, you're not goin' to eat very well. In Andalusia, head to Jerez and go the Sherry route with lots of Tapas and olives. Thats it Im afraid. In Madrid, dont go to the 'ancient' Boutins Restaurant where they serve a VERY EXPENSIVE dinner of Garlic Soup and a huge platter of Pig Bones....incredibly yelchy. Oh! Yes! Good oranges in Valencia. For your Honeymoon, I know Im right....Sherry and Tappas.....or go to Ana Capri for your Honeymoon and stay at the Ceasare Augustus for excellent food and oo la la........Congrats! Tue Mar 20 10:38:00 -0800 2001 1374228 0 Clement 1 1374236 Hi Wonki, Congratulations! When we were in Spain my favorite meals were all in small towns -- we didn't do real well food wise in Toledo or Madrid. We spent most of our vacation on the east coast so I don't really know Andalusia at all. My recommendation at least as far as La Mancha is to eat at the tapas bars in small towns -- when you are driving through the town on the main street there is usually a bakery and a restaurant close to each other. Have a wonderful trip! Tue Mar 20 11:06:54 -0800 2001 1374228 0 Jeremy Osner 2 1374237 seville has some really nice tapas restaurants behind the cathedral. try bar giralda and have the serranito ( a mini pork sandwich with green peppers). go to belmonte (named after the bullfighter) and have calamares en su tinta (squid in ink sauce). bar espana (next to the real fabrica de tabacos) has a wonderful cold pork tapa. also, make sure to eat some good quality jamon serrano (it's like proscuitto only better). another favorite tapa of mine is espinacas con garbanzos...it's an arabian influenced dish of spinach and chick peas. la taberna de albardero is a nice lunch spot (it is the restuarant of a hotel management school). good luck! Tue Mar 20 14:16:42 -0800 2001 1374236 0 rhiannon brown 1 1374240 Oh yeah, I just remembered the one really excellent meal we had in Madrid! It was at Vaca Veronica on C. Moratin. See my review of it from last summer, below. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/259665#1372527 Tue Mar 20 14:37:05 -0800 2001 1374228 0 Jeremy Osner 1 1374258 Wonki, first of all, there's a book you've got to buy. Not about food, but it's about everything else. There are places you can go without doing background reading, and there are places where there are a confusing number of good resources. Before going to Spain, you MUST read this one book (I've been there 19 times and really know the country, so trust me on this). Go to our ChowBooks page (link below), and scroll or search for "The New Spaniards". It is a highly readable, stunningly accurate portrait of post-Franco Spain, dealing with remarkable thoroughness with all sorts of aspects of society. The author has a really deep and unerring understanding of his extremely complex and somewhat contradictory subject. It'll shed tons of light on everything that happens to you in your trip. Ok, I'm just going to babble in stream of consciousness here. Even if given info is not about food, there's food knowledge underlying it. Don't rent a car. Travel like the Spaniards do and use the extensive trains. First, driving is not quite as safe as here (some of the roads, especially in the south, are scary, and the drivers tend to tailgate within 3 inches of your bumper...and DWI is only starting to be a stigmatized practice over there). Also, as airports are airports, highways are highways. Unless you don't mind "winking out" of Spain every time you travel somewhere, take the trains. They're cheap, too. Don't be afraid to travel long distances; I never see anyone talking about this, but Spain is incredibly trippy for geography. Within a four hour trip you can go from Arizona desert to Nebraska cornfield to Forida citrus groves to Rocky Mountains. It happens in a wink of an eye, like a scale model of what we think of as landscape. It's VERY cool. Your itinerary looks good. The south--andalucia--is what most people think of as prototypically spanish, a great introduction to the country. You can fly into madrid and take a high-speed train down there (I hear the food's decent on the train). Sevilla is the perfect honeymoon city....super romantic. And the food is unbelievable. It's a wandering-around city...don't try to make your time there too structured. And do the siesta in the afternoon and stay up late (that's when all the action is). Try to fit into the lifestyle as much as possible...big meal at 1 or 2, laze around afterwards, then go out for tapas and drinks around 5, starting slowly and working yourself into a fullscale dinner by 10. There is a lot of attendant drinking involved with all this (you'll see), but you have two sleeping periods per day to work it all off. Don't try to keep up your normal schedule. There's nothing sadder than the archetypal American tourist trying desperately to get a big meal at 7pm and finding everywhere closed. I'd suggest you take a day trip across the strait to Morocco. You'll only get to hit the northernmost city (Tangiers), it will be horribly commercial and you'll be pestered by guides (my trick: pay somebody five bucks to simply walk with you and not take you anywhere or try to sell you anything...just to keep others from pestering you...and tell him you'll give him another five bucks at the end of the day if he hasn't pushed you to go anywhere...just be quiet and answer questions). But even so, it's an amazing culture shock, the scenery is incredible, likewise for the smells, the mint tea, everything. Don't miss it, it's a great vacation-in-a-vacation. Leave expensive cameras, jewelry, etc, back at the hotel in Spain. In Granada, make sure to hit the Alhambra during a weekday (it's mobbed on weekends). It's my single favorite tourist destination (I normally don't do "monument" type attractions, but this one's different). An amazing place. I'm glad you're going in November. Perfect weather (summers scorch in the south). but pack a sweater...there's very little central heating and there could be cold waves. If you find yourself in mountains at night, it might be downright cold. sorry I'm not giving specific food tips...it's been a few years since I was last there, and anyway I don't have to, this area is pretty fail safe. Just don't ever eat in restaurants with translated menus. The cuisine is not terribly broad; bring a guidebook with decent food translations (I think the Rough Guide was pretty good...Lonely Planet may be even better) and you'll be fine in restaurants. As for the "blow-out" dinner...hmmm...how can I explain this. There ARE really expensive restaurants in Spain that will happily separate you from your money. And some of them are good. But Spain is a revelrous country. There's a very deeply engrained tradition that if you're having a Really Good Time, you throw caution to the wind (all sorts of caution, but including money). So if you're eating in the equivalent of a diner, but the food is superb and the company a lot of fun, there are always expensive foods and wines which can be ordered at a moment's caprice. Unlike here, even lower-class restaurants there carry pricey wine and a few dishes with expensive ingredients. And, also unlike here, places which cook good inexpensive stuff there are generally good throughout their range (traps like the $20 "paella" in a Domincan luncheonette or the $15 steak and eggs in a coffee shop don't exist there). You start shrugging and asking for really good Rioja Reserva instead of the house wine. You just....escalate. That's the Spanish way of "blowing out". You'll probably make friends while there. If you're having a good time with them, just let the meter run and get all the Best Stuff and have tons of fun and then go out dancing. The people who go to super expensive restaurants, by contrast, generally tend to be either old-money musty types or noveau rich ("pijo" in spanish) obnoxious yuppies (yuppies in Spain are a fearsome thing). As for the aforementioned "meeting people", don't be afraid to chat. Spain is unlike the USA...you make eye contact on streets, you talk to people in bars. Even the average person is something of a chowhound, so if you're in a tapas bar and want to know what something is or what's best to order, even if there's a bad language barrier, you'll get LOTS of input from the customers. They'll probably buy you drinks, too. Then you buy them better drinks. Again, escalation is what it's about. The positive side of macho is the never-ending competition to buy ever more delightful treats for the rest of the party. Stay up too late, hit too many tapas bars, make too many friends, drink too much, spend too much. In the US (and, even more so, Korea!), we premeditate such experiences. I'd suggest losing that while there. The more you lose it, the more you'll morph into Spain. don't forget that book! see link below. ciao Link: http://www.chowhound.com/reading/reading.html Wed Mar 21 13:10:29 -0800 2001 1374228 0 Jim Leff 2 1374265 I agree with everything Jim says, except... I WOULD rent a car. If you do any travelling in Adalucia, it's essential to have a car to explore the amazing little hill towns and incredible scenery with olive groves, cork forests, etc. Driving around out there was the highlight of my trip. And we found good small-town chow, too. Thu Mar 22 10:02:42 -0800 2001 1374258 0 Cathy Elton 3 1374266 Agree about the car -- if you travel by train you are limited to the big cities. I did not find the Spanish drivers or roads to be unduly difficult (caveat: I was in the East, not the South; I don't know if Andalusia is different) -- seeing and exploring the rural villages was such a highlight for us, I can't imagine doing it differently. Everything is different in the cities though: if you have a car and you go to Toledo you should *absolutely* park the car outside of the city and use a train to get to your hotel, DAMHIK, and Madrid was also pretty difficult to drive in. Thu Mar 22 10:16:57 -0800 2001 1374265 0 Jeremy Osner 4 1374272 "caveat: I was in the East, not the South; I don't know if Andalusia is different" Andalucia is different. Roads (even ones that look major on maps) are twisty, drivers are more aggressive (tailgating is considered normal behavior, and fiery andalucian tempers flare into road rage at drop of a hat), and DWI is shockingly prevalent. I repeat my stern warning. It is based not on being a tourist in Spain, but on many weeks spent with locals: playing with Spanish musicians all over, living with friends, eating with local chowhounds, basically seeing things through Spanish eyes. If trains don't go to little villages, take buses. The moment you get in the car you could be anywhere. I travel to immerse, and traveling by car in Spain will detract from that experience, IMO. ciao Thu Mar 22 16:44:43 -0800 2001 1374266 0 Jim Leff 5 1374273 yeah, but it's their *honeymoon*...more of a goo-goo-eyes-at-each-other trip than hangin' with the locals deal, no?! Thu Mar 22 18:17:53 -0800 2001 1374272 0 michele lifshen reing 6 1374274 Michele, you must be a lovely, romantic, old soul! Many people on their honeymoon these days know each other really well by the time they get to their honeymoon, and are taking the opportunity for the most fabulous vacation they can imagine and afford. I have to admit that hanging out with the locals and eating incredibly well would be the highlight of my honeymoon - and I find THAT romantic! Just goes to show you how you get to my heart.... Thu Mar 22 19:38:11 -0800 2001 1374273 0 Pickles 7 1374280 ok, you got me, Pepper...a hopeless romantic completely (of the crying in sappy movies variety)! But - you guys got me thinking - on my honeymoon (Mykonos, Santorini, Crete) our fondest and most vivid memories are of the people with whom we interacted (the guy who sold us our rug; the old ladies showing me their knitting; all of the restauranteurs and shopkeepers with whom we chatted with and learned some Greek; the rural villagers who were fascinated with our video camera, and so on). The Greeks (at least the island variety) are so wonderful and friendly. We had a great time immersing ourselves in the culture - each island very different and wonderful in its own right but our favorite was Crete. But to see Crete, one must rent a car - it's a big island and we spent a week traveling from one end to the other, not even seeing the southern edge. What we found were amazing little villages off the beaten path in between the major cities, and the faces of the people we met are what I remember most. That, and the food. And the architecture. Wow, we really had some awesome food - best fish and tomatoes I've ever eaten. But that's an entirely different post...! Fri Mar 23 10:08:44 -0800 2001 1374274 0 michele lifshen reing 7 1374281 Sorry Pickles for calling you Pepper in my Post! (say that 3 times fast...) Fri Mar 23 10:15:18 -0800 2001 1374274 0 michele lifshen reing 6 1374275 No. I have to agree (strongly) with Jim on this. First of all, if they only want to make "goo-goo-eyes" at each other, why travel to Spain to do it? Why not just travel two hours to a romatic bed and breakfast and do it there? Shared travel experiences can be romatic and can provide the happy memories they will share for the rest of their married life. Secondly, although Jim may not have specifically said it, local buses in Latin countries can be some of the most interesting/exciting places to be. First of all, virtually all the passengers tend to be local and secondly, the cultures there are to be outgoing and friendly, so the buses can be almost moving parties! (I write from experience.) If the honeymooners were to let their fellow passengers know why they were there, it would not at all surprise me if they were invited to people's home for a home-made dinner or at least for drinks somewhere. I've provided a link below to a Spanish bus site, but don't know, of course, whether your destinations are served by this company. In any case, congratulations and enjoy! Link: http://www.salcai.es/en/lineas.htm Fri Mar 23 04:58:18 -0800 2001 1374273 0 Mike 1 1374261 Hi Wonki - Last Easter my Mom and I went to Sevilla (via Gibraltar and Jerez). I fell in love with Sevilla. It's a beautiful, walk-around city with plenty to see and do. Despite the blood and gore, Mom and I went to a bullfight - which really isn't all that gory and an amazing cultural experience. And you MUST take the carriage ride around town. Yes, it's touristy but it's charming and the best intro to the city - because the carriages can go into the old town streets inside the city walls. Now for food - I used the Footloose Guide (I think that's the name - it's white covered, heavy, has lots of color pictures and I originally HATED it as a guidebook. Since the first attempt I've found that it really is very information, has wonderful detailed maps of cities, and pretty decent food recommendations - at least in Sevilla and Jerez. In fact, we had terrific meals wherever we went and they weren't that expensive. You've got to at least have drinks at the Alphonzo XIII Hotel if you're not lucky (and rich) enough to stay there. It's inner courtyard is covered with the Moorish inspired ceramic tiles and is beautiful. They have a pianist and violinist playing in the bar area around the courtyard. Lovely! Mom and I went there late one night for drinks - she ordered a gin & tonic and I ordered a Lepanto (great Spanish Solera Gran Reserva brandy - try them, they're terrific). The waiter brought a tall glass with ice, a HUGE brandy snifter, and bottles of tonic, gin, and, of course, the brandy. He started pouring gin into my Mom's glass and kept pouring and pouring. My Mom was so shocked that she just stared at the glass and eventually screamed STOP!!!! The waiter said, "Madam, I thought you wanted a gin and tonic, not a tonic and gin!" LOL!! Then he did the same thing with my brandy. WOW! When we asked for the bill, he brought it back with all the bits for another round. We said we hadn't ordered any more but he said no charge and kept pouring. Needless to say we had a bit of difficulty finding our hotel! Be sure to follow Jim's advice and get into the Spanish timetable - late LONG lunch (lunching at 2 or so is normal), rest, tapas (probably at 7, not 5, at least in our experience), more rest or a stroll around town, begin to think about dinner around 11, starting to dine at 12 is very Spanish. There is a huge amount of drinking (why all Spaniards aren't alcoholics is beyond me) but it's a huge amount of fun because the people are very friendly and it's quite a social thing (just keep sensible and don't drive). Enjoy and congratulations, Paula aka The Bucks Belly Thu Mar 22 04:16:27 -0800 2001 1374228 0 Paula Sindberg 1 1375071 A late response, obviously, but I only just saw this discussion. Not too late for a November honeymoon, I hope. I lived in Seville for over six years (until January, 2000) and I've also lived briefly in Carmona and spent an enormous amount of time in Sanlucar de Barrameda--a sherry town I'd recommend over Jerez any day, both for the fact that it's at the mouth of the Guadalquivir River (and therefore justly famous for shellfish, and particularly tiger prawns) and because I prefer the drier, saltier Manzanilla sherry they make there to the fino sherry of Jerez and El Puerto de Sta. Maria. (Among other reasons involving quaintness, lack of pretension, etc.) I would head down to Sanlucar after a few days in Seville--perhaps on the weekend, when there'll be a little more life to the place. Go immediately to the Plaza del Cabildo and take a tour of the bars there--including (but not limited to) Barbiana--where you can buy a reasonably-priced and excellent amontillado to accompany their famous potatoes--and the more comprehensive Balbino, at the opposite end of the square. Come to think of it, you should also check out Los Monaguillos (to the right of Balbino as you face it), where they have really great jamon iberico--one of the best I've tried outside its native Sierra de Huelva. Anyway, Balbino has an enormous list of uniformly excellent tapas and raciones and is run by a half-dozen brothers who are locally famous for never having bought anyone a drink in their lives. Ask around for directions to Bar El Trigo, the location of which I couldn't begin to explain. Great seafood--including the best ortiguillas, or deep-fried sea anemones, I've ever eaten--and wines from the Bodega of Pedro Romero next door. These include Manzanilla La Aurora, which is both hard to find and generally considered the best available by those in the know, including me. El Trigo is good for a real sit-down lunch As others have said, Seville is full of good bars and restaurants. My favorite is probably the unusually (for Sevilla) high-end Salvador Rojo, opposite the old Tobacco Factory on the Calle San Fernando. The chef-owner is a depressingly young and engaging guy who is actually (uniquely?) doing imaginative things with the local cuisine, including a devastating sea-urchin appetizer. More typical (almost comically so) are two places you'll have to look for: Los Cuevas, across the river in the hideous yet expensive neighborhood of Los Remedios, and Fogon Valvanera, in a nondescript side-street between the Centro Historico and the neighborhood of Nervion. Los Cuevas is very well-known and therefore crowded, and so retrograde that they don't even have a refrigerator in the kitchen--hence the sweetened condensed milk for your coffee. They're obsessed with both food and tradition there. The waiter once laughed off a request for butter by an American friend of mine, saying, "We don't have that stuff. That's for the French." And one day while waiting for a table I was amazed to see the (already drunk) owner vault the bar with a bunch of parseley in his hand, which he proceeded to thwack against the wall and shove in my face, so overcome was he by its wonderful smell. The restaurant's walls are decorated with agricultural murals that seem to have been copied from 1960's high-school textbooks. The tiny Valvanera is less well-known and therefore an easier ticket. But--as at Los Cuevas--the family that runs it seems only to do stuff that's in season, and they cook beautifully. You can't go wrong in either place in my experience, but there's a lot of waiter-recitation at both, so bring a gastronomic phrasebook. And if they don't tell you they have something, ask anyway. You never know. Other good tapas bars include Robles (near the Cathedral and very famous) and La Estrella (also right around there, in the Calle Pajaritos I believe). Really, I could go on and on about this stuff, but those are my personal highlights. In Carmona, I'd head downhill to a venta that's all the way down on the other side highway that runs past the turnoff for the Cordoba Gate. It's called El Tendadero, and they do a lot of meat. Have a nice two-hour pork-based weekend lunch there, then head uphill for a siesta. Certainly everyone's right about adapting yourself to the Andalusian schedule; it actually works very well with jet-lag. Walk around in the morning and eat very little in the way of breakfast: toast and coffee are the norm. Eat an endless lunch starting not earlier than 2:00 pm. Take a nap 'til perhaps 5:00, then head out for more exploring. Start eating/drinking again around 8:00, and if you must have a real dinner (as often as not omitted by the natives) do not expect to do so before 9:30. Stay up late. Couldn't agree more about Hooper's "The New Spaniards," which is uncannily on-target in almost every particular. However, I do have to run the risk with this my first post of incurring the wrath of the Alpha Dog: I would most certainly rent a car in Seville for side trips, after first taking the high-speed AVE train from Madrid. I really would. If you decide against that, the bus line you want for Sanlucar (and, I believe, Jerez) is called Los Amarillos. In any case, have a great time! Tue Aug 28 17:33:05 -0700 2001 1374228 0 John Lilly 2 1375072 John-- Loved your posting, made me very nostalgic. Divergent opinions do not incur my "wrath"! I'm actually pretty low-wrath. But can I just push one point: please, please, don't drive at night in Andalucia (the south), folks. Drunk driving is not very stigmatized there, and roads which look like highways on maps are often twisty little things winding through mountains with steep drop-offs. I'm no car wimp by any means, but if you gotta drive, PLEASE do it during the day. ciao ps--you're not the John Lilly who works with dolphins, are you? ; ) Tue Aug 28 17:46:38 -0700 2001 1375071 0 Jim Leff 3 1375073 Point taken. The problem of drunk driving is a very real one down there, despite the (mostly false in my experience) assertions in just about every guide book that "Spaniards don't drink to get drunk," etc. While Spaniards may or may not drink to get drunk, they most definitely do drink--a lot--and therefore do get drunk. Then there's all the cocaine and hashish, which don't help matters. I'd agree that it's best not to take your life in your hands on unfamiliar roads where a drunk-driven Seat Ibiza is probably gunning for you around the next turn. Glad you liked the post, Mr. Leff, and I'm sorry to report that I'm not the dolphin/sense-dep/wife-adopting John Lilly to whom you refer. He's probably a lot more interesting. Tue Aug 28 18:10:39 -0700 2001 1375072 0 John Lilly 4 1375074 People who drink to get drunk leave the keys home! The rubric is true...Spaniards DON'T drink to get drunk. They drink as part of an overarching goal of conviviality and enjoyment of life. Which is TONS of fun to be part of, but does not lend itself to reponsible driving behavior. Tue Aug 28 18:20:05 -0700 2001 1375073 0 Jim Leff