259706 Fri Sep 29 11:11:28 -0700 2000 27 26 International 0 1372741 My best friend and her husband will be spending a baby-free four day weekend in Vienna over Thanksgiving. Any suggestions for the following will be greatly appreciated: an upscale, romantic restaurant, traditional Austrian cooking in an authentic atmosphere, a country inn within about 45 minutes driving distance of Vienna. They are mainly interested in Austrian rather than continental or ethnic food. She is a true chowhound and knows a great deal about wine, but her expertise does not include Austrian and German wines so any suggestions in that area would be great. Fri Sep 29 11:11:28 -0700 2000 0 Martha Gehan 1 1372743 As to germanic wine: Willie Gluckstern has a great book called the "Wine Avenger" that has some really great chapters on Germanic wine. He also does a great 1-night course in NYC where you taste approximately 40 germanics, including late harvest nectars. Awesome. Check out www.wineavenger.com and look under Wines For Food Tastings, I think he has one in early november. Fri Sep 29 12:34:43 -0700 2000 1372741 0 Jason "Trockenbeerenauslese" Perlow 1 1372744 The two terms you should know for levels of ripeness and hense weight and sweetness are Kabinett and Spatlese.Kabinett varies from dry to off dry and has a light to medium body. Spatlese has a fuller body and is fuller and juicier. Good producers are. Kurt Darting,Von Schubert, Robert Weil and Dr. Burklin- Wolf.A good place for German and Austrian wines to experiment in is Nancy's on the upper West Side. Fri Sep 29 15:35:22 -0700 2000 1372741 0 howard 2 1372745 Howard: Willie Gluckstern, who wrote Wine Avenger and does the Wines for Food tastings here in NYC, is the primary buyer for Nancy's. Great store. And you forgot Auslese and Trocken . Fri Sep 29 21:25:46 -0700 2000 1372744 0 Jason "Gewurtztraminer" Perlow 3 1372746 I met Willie at Nancy's,friendly guy as are all the staff there. Auslese is very ripe and the most sweet of the levels of Rieslings.Trocken means dry.A very popular Austrian wine is Gruner Veltliner. It's light and dry. I haven't had many of these,I much prefer Riesling. Fri Sep 29 23:56:13 -0700 2000 1372745 0 howard 4 1372750 Thats why I like Trockenbeerenauslese... Dry, lots of acidity and yet sweet. Problem is it tends to be pretty steep when you find a bottle, but well worth it. At home we drink mostly Spatslese and Auslese, rachel likes the Kabinetts more than I do. Gruner Veltner is -the- indigenous grape of Austria. You wont really find it in germany. J. Sat Sep 30 12:21:20 -0700 2000 1372746 0 Jason "More Reising!" Perlow 5 1372753 "Thats why I like Trockenbeerenauslese... Dry, lots of acidity and yet sweet." huh? 'dry' and 'sweet' are to wine lingo as 'mild' and 'hot' are to the food trade. they are opposite terms, so for a wine to be both dry and sweet is akin to describing a dish as mildly seasoned and fierily hot. just to be accurate, the amount of sugar content in the must determines how quality german wine is graded: the six QMP (qualitatswein mir pradikat) ratings, by increasing order of sugar weight in the must, are 1. kabinett 2. spatlese 3. auslese 4. beerenauslese 5. trockenbeerenauslese 6. eiswein these ratings have nothing to do with how the wine is finished, which might be with little or considerable residual sugar. this is where the terms 'sweet' or 'dry' weigh in. they are as different as, oh, the countries austria and germany are. Sat Sep 30 18:48:43 -0700 2000 1372750 0 howler 6 1372757 Thanks for pointing out Jason's inconsistency and adding the QmP levels. As you state, the different labels can be dry, off-dry or sweet. In Germany, the dry styles are more common than here. I've run into more than one American tourist who's surprised to find that Auslese can be dry. Mon Oct 02 01:52:48 -0700 2000 1372753 0 Melanie Wong 5 1372758 Your "dry" and "sweet" terminology is confusing, but I understand what you mean. (g) At a breakfast presentation last week, Mr. Schleicher of Schloss Johannisberg described Riesling as being a "dry" grape. I thought he was going to get into the trocken wine debate again, but instead he meant that it is cleansing and non-cloying. He served his 99 Eiswein instead of orange juice. I didn't spit that one out! If you love German TBAs, you might want to seek out an Austrian example. They're often less than half the price and have an earthier minerality. Mon Oct 02 01:56:46 -0700 2000 1372750 0 Melanie Wong 6 1372761 See.. you as a wine expert understand what I mean, but the all-knowing Howler does not.. pity. I suppose he's going to tell me that Austrian and German are two different languages next. QMP classifications aside you can have a "dry" wine with high levels of residual sugar. But yes I was not trying to confuse things. If you take the translation of TBA literally you get "Dry and Sweet" which is kind of a conundrum. Reisling's varietal character is to be sweet with high levels of acidity, even as dry as they get RELATIVE TO OTHER VARITIES. Lets not even get into halbtrockens and all those other grey areas... thank got theres no such thing as a halbtrockenbeerenauslese or halbtrockenspatslese... then things could really get wacky Mon Oct 02 11:17:34 -0700 2000 1372758 0 Jason "See.. you got it" Perlow 7 1372762 I'm not getting in the middle of your lovefest with Howler. (gg) But I'll tell you that Austrian and German can seem like two different languages. While the German pradikat levels are still widely used in Austria, they don't apply in the Wachau region and others are dropping them too. The Austrians want to be seen as their own culture with their own winemaking tradition, and not get confused with the Germans. You were using "dry" to mean lack of water, i.e., trockenbeeren meaning dried berries or raisins. Howler interpretation and my first reaction was to translate from wine speak as "dry" meaning lack of sugar. I made a typo in my reponse to Howler in saying labels when I meant levels. Our point was exactly that there are dry or trocken Spatlesen and dry or trocken Auslese, just as there are sweet Kabinett, not just dry or off-dry as Howard stated. The German domestic market is infatuated with the dryer style of wines, whereas in the US we're more likely to see the sweet ones. Yes, halbtrocken beerenauslese would be really wacky. Especially since we wouldn't know whether this was half a TBA or an off-dry BA. (g) Mon Oct 02 13:11:21 -0700 2000 1372761 0 Melanie Wong 8 1372764 melanie, i'm impressed by your unflagging politeness. those are complex contortions you're going through to paper over a major boo-boo. you know very well that anyone who describes a wine as "Dry, lots of acidity and yet sweet" couldn't possibly be using the term "dry" to mean wine made from shrivelled grapes ... the 'yet' in the phrase just gives it away: if wines were habitually other than sweet when made from dried grapes, there'd be some point to the statement. it's complete nonsense as it stands right now. Mon Oct 02 16:28:46 -0700 2000 1372762 0 howler 9 1372780 Howler, I’m gratified at your appreciation for politeness! This discussion highlights how confusing the German wine law can be for consumers and how hard it can be to communicate about wine. I wouldn’t fault anyone for missing the mark. Meanwhile, the Rheingau is pushing ahead with its labeling changes. Ultimately, I think their initiatives will be helpful but it will be even MORE confusing in the interim. Wed Oct 04 22:06:44 -0700 2000 1372764 0 Melanie Wong 10 1372781 The Rheingau region is -changing- its labels? As if they arent already confusing as hell? Melanie: BTW, if youre going to be in the NY area on October 10... Willie Gluckstern is hosting a German wine tasting at the German House in cooperation with the consulate... If interested I can forward you details Jason Wed Oct 04 22:23:58 -0700 2000 1372780 0 Jason "Uhhhh." Perlow 11 1372792 I have a few more comments - let's switch boards. Thu Oct 05 17:48:50 -0700 2000 1372781 0 Melanie Wong 4 1372779 Howard, you might want to check with the German Consulate for wine tastings. I know that the Embassy in DC sponsors tastings, and the Consulate here in SF hosts a tasting of the new vintage each February for the public with 70 to 100 wines. Imports of German wines are up dramatically, increasing more than 30% in the first six months of this year over the same period last year. Riesling is extremely popular on our local wine lists, but NY sales have been flat, I’m told. I wonder what the problem is. Wed Oct 04 22:05:24 -0700 2000 1372746 0 Melanie Wong 5 1372784 Melanie,thanks for the tip. I like Riesling but my favorite white is New Zealand Sauvignon Blanc. I enjoy Goldwater, Cloudy Bay and Nautilus -basically anything from Marlborough. Love those tropical flavors. Thu Oct 05 00:00:29 -0700 2000 1372779 0 howard 6 1372791 Let's chat about NZ wines in the General Topics section. Thu Oct 05 17:47:43 -0700 2000 1372784 0 Melanie Wong 3 1372759 I like Willie's book a lot, very entertaining, easy read and only a couple small boo-boos. It first came to my attention two years ago when Christian Guradze of Burklin-Wolf was in SF. He'd picked up a copy and needed an explanation of what "avenger" meant. Nevertheless, he was extremely happy to read Willie's views of Riesling. Mon Oct 02 01:59:44 -0700 2000 1372745 0 Melanie Wong 1 1372752 One of the best areas for Austrian wines is around the lake of Neusiedler See which is about 70 Kms south east of Vienna. It is a wondeful day trip by car (if your friends are renting one), and most of the vinyards down there are happy to welcome you for tastings. Some of the better Austrian producers come from that area. Some I am familiar with and would recommend are: Kracher; Probably the best known producer. Makes some fine Gruner Veltliner, Riesling, Chardonnay and welschriesling wines. Is most famous for its Sweet Desert wines some of which score 96+ in wine spectator, and around $80 for a 375 ml bottle here in the states. Heidi Schrock: Situated in the town of Rust on the western side of lake Neusiedler See Produces a very good Gelber Muskateller, Weissburgunder and Ausbruch "non-Fume Umathum: Situated in the small village of Frauenkirchen on the East side of the Neusiedler See. One of the best Pinot Noirs that I have ever drunk was a "Blauburgunder Pinot Noir 94" produced by this vineyard. One would not normally expect to find a decent Red wine from Austria or Germany for that matter, but this changed my views on Austrian wine as a whole and led me to experiment alot with the wines of the area. One more producer, but from a different area is Brundlmayer: Situated in Langenlois about 120 kms west of Vienna. Another popular producer of Gruner Veltliner,and Rieslings, with varying styles of sweetness from Kabinett to Auslese. So if your friends have the time I thoroughly recommend a day trip. The Neusiedler See is the only wetland in Europe and is protected as a national park by Austria. this link will give you more info http://www.tourist-net.co.at/natps1ae.htm and this one although in German the town of Rust, http://www.burgenland.at/default.asp?ebene=Gemeinde&bezirk=Eisenstadt&gemeinde=Rust&map=gembezirk_eisenstadt&link=geo click on wein, then on weinbetriebe, and that will give you a list of all the producers in the town. Sat Sep 30 15:42:40 -0700 2000 1372741 0 TEX 2 1372756 Great list! Haven't tasted Umathum, but can heartily second all the rest. My first experience with Austrian wines was a visit by a group from the Wachau and Alois Kracher to Napa Valley about 4 years ago. Wow, I was floating on air for several days! These are incredible, worldclass wines. In London last year, I stumbled upon a tasting with Kracher featuring all his 96s. Fortunately, there was one no-show and I was able to get the last seat. Alois is an industry to himself. Not only does he command the highest prices in Austria, but he is an industry to himself. He's able to profit from all his by-products. His marc goes to the distillery, his lots with too much volatile acidity (VA) go to a boutique vinegar producer, and the Beerenauslesen (BA) with not enough acidity go to the cheesemaker. This tasting was also the unveiling of Kracher Grand Cru, a blue cheese made by Schärdinger Affineur. Kracher had been approached by Cheese sommelier Herbert Schmid of Restaurant Steirereck, Vienna, whose brother is the wine steward at this renowned restaurant to develop a native cheese to complement his special wines. The cheese is infused with BA and is packed in a ceramic cannister. A specially designed spreader is used to scrape the cheese servings to ensure aeration for the fullest flavor. It was incredible with the wines. Afterwards when I was gushing to Kracher about how much I enjoyed his wines, he remembered meeting me in Napa. He said, "talking about wines is one thing, but more importantly, did you have fun today?" Of course I did! Pretty neat guy. Mon Oct 02 01:49:16 -0700 2000 1372752 0 Melanie Wong 3 1372771 Thank's for the nice additions. I am going to be in Austria at the end of the month and that cheese is something that I was not aware of and will definately be trying to track down. It sounds marvellous and being a roquefort chap myself, is just up my street. Special tools are also a particular fondness of mine. Maybe I can smuggle a cheese and scraper package back along with my Spanish Absinthe and assorted sugar melting spoons. Cheers! Wed Oct 04 03:08:49 -0700 2000 1372756 0 TEX 4 1372778 Lucky you, I'm so envious! I've been looking for it, but must have tossed it in my last cleaning frenzy --- I had the card for the US importer of the Kracher blue cheese. She's in Florida and also retails. I think the price was about $19/lb. I met her at the Fancy Foods show in January, it hadn't been launched in the US yet and she was surprised that I noticed it on her price list. Wed Oct 04 22:03:56 -0700 2000 1372771 0 Melanie Wong 4 1372790 More info upstairs. Thu Oct 05 17:46:43 -0700 2000 1372771 0 Melanie Wong 1 1372755 The only personal recommendation I have would be Goldener Hirsch in Salzburg but that’s beyond your friends’ driving distance. My friend Bill Mayer travels to Austria several times a year. Bill has a business called the Age of Riesling, focusing on the great wine estates of Germany and Austria. He also imports a wonderful pumpkin seed oil from Austria. A typical Berkeley kinda guy, besides being a wine merchant, Bill’s a poet and a former carpenter. He does poetry readings in Vienna at Shakespeare & Co. Anyway, his Sept. newsletter describes a place that sounds like it would be a good candidate for your friends. To introduce the wines of Nikolaihoff, he said, "Nikolaihof is in Mautern, on the edge of the Wachau. This is where we stay, at a wonderful small hotel and restaurant called Landhaus Bacher, which is surely one of the three or four best in Austria. This is perfect for Foie gras Theise, who gets to indulge himself shamelessly for a number of nights there. Watching, one gets to consider what the sin of gluttony is about. But it’s a lovely place, presided over by the chef-owner, her hearty husband, and the magnificent Johanna Stiefelbauer, who seems to do everything to keep things running, is invariably cheerful and warm and seems to anticipate your every need. I tend to feel almost embarrassed there, wondering why I’ve been mistaken for royalty. Several nights, I took walks through the silent town, out to the main road and then to the bridge over the Donau. Not much traffic in the deep night, so I could go on the wooden walkway and only hear the sound of the river and my own footfalls. . . " Nikolaihoff is a biodynamic winery with a restaurant on premise. Bill’s mentioned before that the restaurant follows the same strict organic rules and has a Chez Panisse sensibility about food. If your friends want to familiarize themselves with German and Austrian wines, they should e-mail Bill, poetry1@lmi.net (that’s a "one" after poetry) to request his most recent newsletter which covered the 1999 vintage in both countries in depth. This is the vintage they’re most likely to be offered during their trip. It was a successful vintage in both countries, an approachable and ripe one that will provide a good starting point for those new to the genre. I’ve tasted nearly 200 German wines of the 1999 vintage in the last month and would be happy to e-mail my tasting notes and recommendations. More useful though would be ones for Austria, which I don’t have quite as much depth in. The Austrian winemakers I’ve met fairly bristle when their wines are compared to Germany’s, and I don’t know how much German wine is sold in Austria. But I can describe some of my favorite producers and wine styles unique to Austria. I’d also suggest checking out Peter Ruhrberg’s site, http://www.winepage.de/. This is a non-commercial labor of love for him, in English, with lots of information on German wines. For Austrian wine information, www.weinakademie.at is the Weinakademie Osterreich, run by Josef Schuller, MW Managing Director with information about wine events in Austria and a selection of seminars if they really want to get into it. I spent some time with Peter in Burgundy earlier this year and can vouch for him as a chowhound. At our lunch in Gevrey-Chambertin, he insisted that I switch my first course order (not escargot again!) to order the restaurant’s signature dish, and I’m grateful I did. His comments on his Wachau and Vienna visit in 1998 can be found at the link below, including dinner at Restaurant Steirereck in Vienna. He was accompanied by another of my winepals, Robin Garr --- I’ve got a lot of respect for both of them. Link: http://www.wine-lovers-page.com/wines/austria.shtml Mon Oct 02 01:37:06 -0700 2000 1372741 0 Melanie Wong 2 1372768 Melanie, thank you so much for all the fantastically detailed information in your posts on this subject! Not only am I going to pass it along to my friend, but I think, inspired by you, I may start educating myself further on Austrian and German wines. It is always a pleasure to read your posts--the extent of your erudition is awesome. Thanks again. Tue Oct 03 17:36:18 -0700 2000 1372755 0 Martha Gehan 3 1372777 My pleasure, Martha. If you can stand to hear more, I ended up driving through Berkeley on Monday afternoon and stopped by to see Bill Mayer. He said that the areas near Vienna offer many good choices for the type of evening your friends envision. When he calls on his wineries, he will stay in Mautern at Bacher to cover the region west of Vienna and says the quality of dining in nearby towns is very good. He said that Bacher's list of Austrian wines is fantastic and one should definitely book a room at the hotel in order to fully indulge in the list at dinner. When he visits Heidi Schröck in Neusiedlersee, he stays in Rust, an area popular with weekend tourists. On a recent trip, he and his wife spent some time touring the alpine region of southern Austria. He did mention that his business partner, Hiram Simon, prefers not to stay at Bacher because it's not "colorful" enough. Asking for clarification, this means there's not as many tsotchkes or not very funky. He said Nikolaihof is the place for earthy regional specialities, lots of organ meats. Austria has a tradition of small wine taverns called "heurige" where the locals socialize. Typically they'll offer new vintage for sale and sampling in late November, perfect from your friends' timing. The grape varieties unique to Austria are Zweigelt, a light red with raspberry and blueberry flavors, and Grüner Veltliner. Whenever I've introduced someone to GV, it will be compared to Sauvignon Blanc with a white pepper accent. The aromas and scents reminded me of fresh peas, moss, lime zest, fennel, green beans, melon, turnips, and tart green apples. Yet the Rieslings are the finest wines of the region - perfectly dry, pristine fruit, naturally high acidity, clean mineral notes, and tremendous expression of the individual terroir of their vineyards. While the Austrian wine law adheres to the German prädikat system that Howard, Jason and Howler have described, the Wachau region has its own three-tier classification system. "Steinfeder" is the category of the simplest wines made for early consumption with a maximum alcohol content of 10.7% and a minimum must weight of 15 to 17 degrees KMW. The term comes from a feathery grass, stipa pennata, that grows among the vines on the rocks of Wachau vineyards. "Federspiel" are fresh, elegant every day wines intended for drinking within 5 years of vintage, delicate in flavor and bone-dry. These are between 11 and 12% alcohol with a minimum must weight of 17 degrees KMW, roughly equivalent to "kabinett". The term is taken from the sport of falconry. "Smaragd" means "emerald" and is also the name of the green lizards that bask on the steep rocky terraced vineyards that overlook the Danube River. These classic wines are only produced in the best vintages and are richly flavored and full-bodied yet dry. Smaragd wines must achieve a minimum of 12% alcohol and a must weight of 18.2 degrees KMW. In the ripest years, as recent vintages have been, the wines can attain 14% alcohol and some residual sugar for an off-dry finish. Totally confused? Well, some producers are eliminating use of the categories - either German or Wachau - and making a standard cuvée and a "reserve" cuvée in an attempt to make it easier for consumers to figure out what's in the bottle. As always, best to rely on the top producers to make the best wines. My favorite in the Wachau is Emmerich Knoll - very traditional and taking extra risks to make the absolutely best wines he can from his ancient vineyards. FX Pichler is perhaps the most renowned in the Wachau, and his wines are excellent too. Nearby in the Kremstal region, Nigl makes fascinating wines. The Austrian wine I opened for the Big Dogs at our R&G dinner in May was the 1996 GV "Piri Privat" from Nigl - austere and beautiful - and one of my favorites for a Chinese meal. Please let us know how your forays into the wines of Germany and Austria are coming along. I don't know where you're located, but if you're anywhere near San Francisco, Bill is teaching a seminar next month. Not only is he one of the most knowledgeable around on these wines but he's also an excellent teacher. Link below. Link: http://www.drinkgreatwine.com/Events/GermanRieslingEvent.htm Wed Oct 04 22:00:10 -0700 2000 1372768 0 Melanie Wong 1 1375087 Being Viennese I'd recommend restaurant Bauer in Vienna's (central) first district (in my opiniion the best Restaurant here, not as fancy as Steirereck but nice, small, vaulted ceiling and creative cooking), Gut Oberstockstall (on the old road to Krems (not the modern highway), about 60 km West of Vienna) country inn in an old monastery, great food and wine (although owner is a little too fond of his own stuff), try the wines of Polz in southerny Styria right of the Slovenian border and "Boschetti" in Tricesimo for excellent dinner or (even better) lunch (don't be afraid if the place is empty and looks like the last customer was there in 1955 - they will serve a great fare nevertheless). Sat Sep 29 18:09:11 -0700 2001 1372741 0 Werner Kattinger