259539 Thu Jan 13 16:26:35 -0800 2000 13 26 International 0 1371972 1. food guides. as Josh or somebody else noted in a post, Sandra Gustafson's book, Cheap East in Italy is a useful and generally reliable source of info for chowhounds. It helpfully covered for Rome Venice Florence (thats exactly where we went) and we used it all the time. Faith Willingers and Fred Plotkins books were also helpful, the Gambero Rosso and Osterie in Italia guides much less so for our big city destinations. I was mad at Slowfood for sending me (very expensively, by express mail) the 1999 Osterie book when when I arrived in Italy 1 week later the 2000 book was in the stores. Just plain shoddy. 2. Northern Italy is not very good territory for a vegan. There is generally receptivity toward vegetarians but it dies out when you say "no animal products". Very little but grilled vegetables, spaghetti with tomato sauce (no cheese), boiled greens, bread and some bean and veg soups are available and the soups are often made on the assumption that added cheese will be a major flavor component, so when it is not added, they are bland and boring... 3. I saw a lot of "surgelato" stores, especially in Rome, selling frozen foods, particularly seafood. They were much used. Lots of people were patronizing the frozen food areas of the "supermarkets" too, including in Venice. Surely a dire sign of the times. 4. Our apartment rentals went great in all 3 cities (4 rentals in toto). Internet a super resource for this and rental great for taking advantage of the still abolutely wonderful local markets - my two regrets, not cooking any of the stunning fish from the Rialto fish market, and not having time at the end of the trip to shop for cheeses to bring home (and forgetting to pack the 1kilo of panpepato I did buy!)I will recommend an excellent rental agent when I get around to posting re venice. 5. The Christmas/New Year holidays are a tough time to visit Italy, with all the closing days - I think there were a least 6 when things - except for some restaurants and churches - shut down utterly. Lots of restauranteurs take their vacation then too. Venice and Florence were both freezing cold, V was clear and beautiful (except in the fog, and boy was it chilly in the fog), Florence grayer and wetter. I envied the Italians their fur coats! Rome was definitely in a more moderate climate zone. However, we were told by the Florentines that the weather was never so cold so early, and that at most they got a week that cold...usually in late January... each year. Also, it got dark starting at around 4 (just when things started reopening after the siesta, curtailing touring. Bottom line- there were definite minuses to visiting northern italy in this season - I will aim for a late winter/early spring or mid-fall visit the next time. Thu Jan 13 16:26:35 -0800 2000 0 jen kalb 1 1371975 4 days-4 restaurant meals of which the cheapest were the most satisfying (Cibreo was closed, sadly when we were free to go) All in the Cheap Eats Book, too - (1) Tratt. Mario via Rosina 2r - casual and cheap lots of fun, extremely solid tuscan food; the ragu on my daughters pasta was the best of our 3-week trip; ribollita, baccala fine and the tuscan steak (served with frites) at adjoining tables looked terrific. (2) Ristorante del Fagioli, corso dei tintori 47r toward the river from Santa Croce. Another very pleasant, solid, friendly Tuscan choice, the pappa pomodoro was excellent,meats excellent, pinzimonio etc. (3) Osteria del Cingiale Bianco, Borgo Sant'Jacopo in Oltrarno-once again, a reassuring atmosphere and generally good, but our particular food choices didn't come quite up to expectations (too many tourists?-differential treatment? The place was jam packed with locals having a great time in addition to us and a table of japanese and I am sure some others). For example, I had fettucine with white truffles - it was delicious, but I noticed when the same dish was delivered to an adjoining italian woman, hers had many more white, full-sized shavings while mine had had smaller, slightly darker more questionable pieces.) My wild boar dish was basically a very simple tomatoey sauce on pieces of that could easily have been somewhat lean, dry pork rather than boar. OK but not delicious. If you go there avoid their fancy veal special with cheese and prosciutto - it was rather distasteful and not at all up their line. Strozzopreti (spinach gnocchi in butter) were tasty but too rich, and Ive definitely seen better renditions. Soups pappa pomodoro and ribollita were fine. (4) La Baroanda on via Ghibellina nr Santa Croce-they fitted us in for dinner without reservations - very warm and pleasant atmosphere, more upscale definitely, fantastic, delicious biscuits with olive spread as gratis appetiser. Food was richer than most tuscan, used a lot of butter. I had homemade pasta with boar ragu - pasta was really excellent, ragu fairly ordinary; husbands risotto made with salad greens was good not great; had to feel it was a bit of a gimmick; 2 of us had their recommended specialty, veal meatloaf, presented in a tomato sauce which really underwhelmed me; we had the recommended apple tart dessert which also wasnot anything much; felt we got socked on our bottle of wine which was, however, wonderful. Last, my vegan daughter's soup of a puree of vegetables is to be avoided at all costs - totally bland and rather unpalatable. They didn't have anything to offer her as a main course except a rather plain salad. I would return to this place but at lunch, which is more casual and avoid the specialties - which, with their added richnes, are probably more interesting to people tired with the limited tuscan food palate than to new arrivals like us. The highlight of Florence was food shopping in the San Lorenzo and san Ambrogio public markets - a wonderful experience. I could go on and on about these markets but would like to specially mention a vendor at the latter market who offered stunning candied fruits, whole citrons, limes, etc. I didnt buy any because I figured I had three weeks in italy and surely I would see such items later on. I looked, believe me, but I didnt. There was also a special farmer's market in Piazza Santo Spirito one sunday (different from the daily market in that square) where all kinds of artisanal products were offered by local farmers, oils, herbs, etc. Finally, any thoughts about wild boar? My memories of the ragus and salami Ive had in the past were of a richer flavor. Has something happened to this meat? Fri Jan 14 16:21:21 -0800 2000 1371972 0 Jen Kalb 2 1371976 we had a week in Venice - 6 restaurant meals - of these 3 worth mentioning in a positive way - most of the highly recommended places were closed for the holidays over our stay. But, we had an absolutely terrific Christmas dinner (lunch) at Corte Sconta which was right around the corner from our Arsenale apartment. Published reports of a decline in quality at Corte Sconta seem to be in error (at least for an off-season visit); its hard to imagine better food or casual service. The host was gracious and amusing and accomodated us charmingly, though he was besieged and we had shown up at 2pm with no reservations (people, tourists, I assume, seem to be making reservations and not showing up in Venice, just as here). We had as an antipasto the (recommended) seafood tasting, which was presented in two or three courses (it blurs), the last as a platter with multiple items many totally unfamiliar, all totally fresh, delicious pristine - like they had jumped out of the lagoon into the pan - like nothing I had ever tasted before and what I had come to Venice to experience, foodwise. AHHH. Like many other patrons we followed this course with a pasta course, and had no secondi - it was just too much food. Mine was a homemade pasta sauced with eel and it too was wonderful. With a delicious simple house white and a warm atmosphere Jim and I had a wonderful venetian Christmas meal while our grumpy, Christmas-deprived teenagers watched european music videos and studied back at the apt. The other good ones were Tratt dai Tosi, way out in Santa Elena district, at Secco Marina 738 where we had excellent pizza but watched a party of local men chow on delicious-looking seafood platters and have a beer-chugging contest-Da Franz out that way looked good too, but we couldnt fit it in- and GAM GAM, a kosher Israeli restaurant facing the Canareggio canal in the Ghetto Nuovo. This last place (I had found recommended on a website) was quite a spot, with a highly diversified clientele including numbers of apparent hasids. They offer various cous cous dishes which were pretty good and an israeli platter with dynamite hoummous, good felafel, eggplant and an absolutely delicious baba ganoug made with mayo (!) along with strange offerings like carrot/raisin and egg salads. The best choice was their "salad bar" which was an extensive offering of mostly cooked vegetable dishes. Wonderful, and the mideast bread was good, too. Large servings, cheap, and a good break when the limited food options of Venice start to pall. Have to say we went there for my vegan daughters sake when "La Zucca" turned out to be closed. It turned out to my kids' favorite restaurant in Venice. Some general observations - in Venice, unlike other places we've been, we didn't improve our meal by ordering a la carte rather than from the menu turistico-in places which offered a menu turistico, that was the way to go - the a la carte dishes were much more expensive and not particularly good. Two tier service was definitely in evidence in the "lesser" restaurants - ex. on Christmas Eve we had a pedestrian dinner at a locally-recommended neighborhood spot, and were told certain menu items were not available, and our portions were scanty and none-too cheap (4 boring shrimp in a pasta dish)-while we watched huge seafood plates delivered to local regular patrons at what I presume was a much more reasonable price. The group of "Good Welcome" restaurants in Venice are definitely worth seeking out to avoid disappointment, since restaurant meals there are generally so expensive, even at poor restaurants. The Rialto market was fantastic, a kitchen is definitely a must for a cook. Buy your pheasant or rabbit, already stuffed and ready to plop in the oven, buy some beautiful shrimp still wiggling (I couldn't have done that with my in-house vegan, a beautiful shining fish, some glorious muscat grapes, some mysterious cabbage/broccoli from an island in the lagoon, one of 4 or 5 kinds of radicchio, etc. etc. We made a superior minestrone with lamon beans and vegetables from the market which some of us lived on, with bread and new crop olive oil, for days on end. Re the apartment, we used Anne-Marie Shanks' london based "Venetian Apartments" service which has probably 55 properties well described on the web and friendly, efficient service. Highly recommended, and an antidote to some of the snobbish villa rental outfits. Fri Jan 14 18:35:08 -0800 2000 1371975 0 jen kalb 3 1371977 Jen, you are indeed a Big Dog (and I mean that in the nicest possible sense). Thanks for another wonderful posting. ciao Fri Jan 14 18:43:55 -0800 2000 1371976 0 Jim Leff 3 1371986 Jen did Venice the right way. Rent an apartment with a kitchen and spend time in the neighborhoods away from San Marco. Our last visit was a too-brief stopover, really just a way to refresh our memories of favorite places and, most important, good food. We hit the bacari, the little wine bars that serve cichetti, the Venetian version of tapas. I posted a description of some of these long ago on the international board, but it's also on my site (see below). The Slow Food site (www.slowfood.com) also has an extensive list of bacari (aka osterie or wine bars) from a back issue of Slow magazine (which is a fun and quirky publication...almost worth the price of membership). One morning jet lag got me up at about 4 am, so I took the camera and wandered around the quiet streets until the sun rose. I walked around the Rialto market as the vendors set up their stalls, wheeling in styrofoam crates of wriggling shrimp on ice, huge swordfish, and lots of fruits and vegetables. I had a caffe in a tiny bar where the vendors were warming themselves (some internally with grappa) and talked about mushrooms with a produce seller. Venice is magical, and I'd urge everyone to go during the late fall or winter when it's not too crowded (and the canals don't smell so much, either). I've had good luck renting apartments in Venice from Guest In Italy (www.guestinitaly.com). They also have a good choice of cheaper hotels and cover Florence and, I think, Rome. jim Link: http://www.realgoodfood.com Mon Jan 17 13:45:30 -0800 2000 1371976 0 Jim Dixon 3 1372001 Jen, There's a detailed posting about Gam Gam on the kosher board here. You said you read about it "on a website", so maybe you haven't seen it. I'd give a link, but I don't know how... Tue Jan 25 16:06:18 -0800 2000 1371976 0 pam 4 1372002 wow, thanks, its a good post, too - Ill try to link it below. I was referring to another Gam Gam review - I thing on an about.com Italy site. I differ from our kosher board contributor only minimally - I really didn't like the artichoke fritters - too much boring bready fritter dough - the eggplant dishes we tried were good, and my daughter loved the big, round eggy latkes. This place was a great antidote to the occasional what, Italian food again, fatigue that sets in. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/272544#1434384 Tue Jan 25 16:24:47 -0800 2000 1372001 0 jen kalb 3 1372003 We were happy to find the Gam Gam (whatever that means) back in October because we too had found ourselves on the bottom of 2-tier service in other Venetian restaurants; much bigger and better portions and better service for tour groups as well as locals, stingy portions and interminable waiting for us. I think we liked the Gam Gam's Italian fare better than jen kalb & famiglia did, even though it is cheeseless, and the Gam Gam's courteous and genuinely friendly service was a real treat, a boon anywhere but in sharp contrast with the indifference we experienced elsewhere in Venice. Wed Jan 26 15:33:50 -0800 2000 1371976 0 bob p 4 1372004 I believe gam gam means also also in hebrew Wed Jan 26 19:22:34 -0800 2000 1372003 0 stephen kaye 3 1372571 How can I contact this Anne-Marie Shanks (London) who arranges Venetian apartment rentals? Wed Aug 30 21:57:43 -0700 2000 1371976 0 janina 2 1371982 Jen- Thanks a lot for the great posts...my wife and I are headed to Florence and Venice in February, and I look forward to trying a couple of the places you've mentioned. Also, thanks for the "places to avoid" That's, perhaps, even more important! A question I have - do you speak Italian? And, if not, how well did you communicate? Sun Jan 16 11:10:57 -0800 2000 1371975 0 mitchw 3 1371989 thanks for the kind words - all of the places I mentioned were worthy of a visit and capable of producing good meals - as Im sure are many of the others mentioned in the Gustafson, Willinger and Plotkin books - as for the language we get by on fairly minimal menu and phrase-book italian but we try hard not to fall into English; though most hoteliers, restaurant workers and shopkeepers understand and can speak some English, they appreciate your effort in being a good guest. In the public food markets, on the other hand, some italian is more important since the farmers and other vendors often do not know English. Talking about money is a particular stumbling block, but fortunately the vendors all have machines which spit out receipts - when there is doubt, that clarifies the situation. In sum, its well worth the time to bone up on basic italian phrases so you are ready to deal with daily civilities and situations. Tue Jan 18 16:55:43 -0800 2000 1371982 0 jen kalb 2 1371985 My best cinghiale experience was at the sagra del cinghiale (roughly: wild boar festival) in the western Tuscan village of Chianni (I have more info about Chianni on my website...see the link below). For days leading up to the sagra gunshots echoed across the rolling wheat fields as the townsfolk hunted the wild boars in the hedgerows (the hunters always dress in neat olive drab and look almost militaristic...much more formal than the camo-and-gimme hat uniform common here in the west). On the first Saturday of the sagra, cars lined the narrow roads leading up to the village, and the streets were blocked by vendors selling everything from olives and cheese to housewares and clothing. Village residents volunteered in the community kitchen and dining areas. A temporary bar served drinks, panini, and three different kinds of pecorino cheese. Behind the bar you could see the town’s winery, huge wooden barrels holding vin novello. Men filled unlabeled bottles from the barrels, packed them into wire milk crates, and carried them into the adjacent garage-cum-dining room (you could buy a bottle for immediate consumption for 3000 lire, about $2 at the exchange that day). We stood in line and studied the menu, then paid at a table set up in the piazza. We carried our receipts to one of the dining areas, waited some more, then were seated at a communal table with other Tuscans. Most had traveled from Pisa or Lucca, and with our limited language skills we determined that driving to one sagra or another is a favorite weekend activity. Then we ate. Creamy polenta topped with cinghiale ragu and the same sauce on penne. Cinghiale in umido con olive natale was boar stewed in a garlicky tomato sauce with just-picked olives, the meat fall-apart tender and the sauce with a surprisingly nice bitter undertone from the olives. Even our tablemates from Lucca raised eyebrows at my cinghiale fegatello, a softball-sized whole boar liver cooked with peppery fresh olive oil (it was delicious). Jen’s experience with boar might be due to the fact that these are wild animals and so will exhibit different flavor characteristics based on where they come from and what they’ve been eating. I know domestic, farm-raised “wild” boar is completely different from what I ate at the sagra or even at the local trattorie. And a note for Mitchw about language... It does help to speak at least a little Italian because it lets the locals know that you cared enough to try to communicate with them. Our very best experiences in Italy were chance encounters where we did break through, despite limited language skills. We even had a wonderful “conversation” with a jaded vendor in the street market in Firenze. I’d suggest a beginners’ class to learn the basics of pronunciation, then get a phrase book and pocket dictionary. My favorite phrase book is Lonely Planet’s, mostly because it’s easy to find the section you need in a hurry. jim Link: http://www.realgoodfood.com Mon Jan 17 13:27:42 -0800 2000 1371975 0 Jim Dixon 1 1371978 3. I saw a lot of "surgelato" stores, especially in Rome, selling frozen foods, particularly seafood. They were much used. Lots of people were patronizing the frozen food areas of the "supermarkets" too, including in Venice. Surely a dire sign of the times. Jen: Please have some sympathy for the "working stiffs" of Italy! Frozen food has been part of the Italian Supermarket landscape for as long as I can remember. (1985) While Italian supermarkets lack the superb frozen food that French one's seem to have. (In Cuneo, people would drive to France to stock up on frozen dinners) the frozen food there, especially the fish, is very superior to what we get here. The argument is simple - frozen fish is better than defrosted fish. (They say the same thing at Trader Joe)And enough of the time, this is true. I believe that Italian home cooking today is better than it ever was. Frozen fish is far better than poorly stored fish and those supermarket products that look like American horrors sure don't taste like them! The ultimate US vs Italy grocery test? Buy a bottle of Fanta Orange here and one in Italy, the labels are almost identical, but compare the taste! Fri Jan 14 21:30:39 -0800 2000 1371972 0 Brian Yarvin