24642 Fri Jun 20 12:14:50 -0700 2003 47 1 San Francisco Bay Area 0 96635 I recently took in a memorable dinner at The Fifth Floor. An outstanding meal by US standards. The first two courses are to be particularly commended. A description of a meal earlier this year is also included as background. Chef's Choice Menu (1) CEVICHE Sea bass, Geoduck clam, Kumamoto oyster, and Osetra caviar with lime and olive oil Glass of Champagne Ruinart Rosé Brut, Reims (2) CONCH Sautéed meuniere, brown butter vinaigrette Bouchard Corton-Charlemagne Grand Cru 2000 (Demi) (3) MAINE LOBSTER Braised with morels and asparagus (4) FOIE GRAS "CHAUD-FROID" Roasted with bee pollen and cured with Buddha's hand and Hawaiian salt, with glass of Kracher, Smith & Robles "Cuvée Miaud" Trockenbeerenauslese, Neusiedlersee, Austria 2000 (5) RABBIT COMPOSITION Braised with glass noodles, sautéed with Meyer lemon and olives, sautéed foie gras, with Domaine Dujac Gevrey-Chambertin "Combettes," Burgundy 1993 (Demi) (6) NIMAN RANCH PORK BELLY Poached slowly with black truffles and roasted crispy on the skin, truffle jus (6) INTERMEZZO Strauss Family Yogurt Sorbet with Strawberry-Rhubarb Soup (7) BING CHERRIES WITH ALMOND FOAM (may not be formal dish name) Earlier meal: Laurent Gras’ cuisine sings. It is all that it has been hyped in the media to be :) My only meal thus far at Fifth Floor was ravishing and the evening ended with my having come to suspect, subject to the need for further sampling, that Gras’ cuisine is second only to that of T Keller for restaurants visited in the US (notwithstanding my finding Blue Hill to be the best subjective match in the US still for my preferences). Prior to this meal, I had wondered, unfairly (in the sense of not having given Chef Gras the benefit of the doubt), why Chef Gras appeared to have been touted as one of the most promising chefs in the US of the emerging generation. I had taken in one meal at Peacock Alley, and had also sampled his cuisine recently at James Beard. Neither meal bore, in my mind, the indicia of a cuisine that was as promising as that I saw described in certain press coverage of Chef Gras. In a manner that is highly uncharacteristic of myself as a diner, I had let my cynicism with respect to the general quality of cuisine in the US and my general dislike for the cuisine of one of Chef Gras’ mentors (Alain Ducasse, whom I have long believed is significantly overrated) taint my judgment of Chef Gras’ cuisine. Distressingly, I had in a bizarre way prejudged Gras’ cuisine without even having ever dined at FF. Worse still, I had stridently communicated these doubts to the chef in connection with the James Beard event (perhaps he has forgotten). What all of this amounted to was considerable baggage on my part as it related to my taking in a FF meal. That baggage was compounded by my being unable to explain to myself why I had prejudged Chef Gras’ cuisine when I ordinarily like to take in at least two or three meals at a significant restaurant before arriving at a conclusion with respect to its cuisine. Couple that baggage with the load of slight guilt I was feeling for having made several reservations through Opentable.com on prior evenings and having cancelled them (with some notice, but not a great deal) when I secured last-minute-ish reservations at French Laundry. I have rarely harbored so much self-perceived baggage with respect to a restaurant in the US before. I arrived at the restaurant with some trepidation. With that relatively unfortunate background (for which I was the sole party responsible), the kitchen, dining room and sommelier teams placated my anxieties by orchestrating, with clarity and conviction – and with poised elegance -- the unfolding of a moving meal. A meal that left me believing in Chef Gras’ promise as a cuisinier (in the sense of having potential, despite his cuisine being already relatively advanced in my mind) and in the promise of a restaurant, when a worthy chef is supported by a strong sommelier (Belinda Chang, ex-Charlie Trotter’s) and a gracious maitre d’. With all respect to FL, the wine list and sommelier team are stronger than those at FL, and the maitre d’ and his team were on par with those at FL. A meal that left me wondering, the next evening when I was dining at FL, whether I had made a mistake in not revisiting FF. A meal that causes me, the next time I am in SF (Napa included), to make FF my first stop. (It is hard to tell whether my recent six meals at FF might have temporarily rendered an incremental meal there less interesting to me.) It would be fair to say that I am a convert. In Gras’ cuisine, I note cooking of products that is just, in the sense of cooking that leaves meats and shellfish and fish not overcooked. I see sensuality – as in the undulating folds of the geoduck, in the suppleness of the portion of an appropriately small lobster in the cappuccino appetizer, in the delicate shrimp with their blush tones accompanying it. I see a willingness to take risks in a measured way – as in the saucing for the scallop or the dipping sauce for the foie gras (discussed below). I see an openness to certain features of Asian cuisine, with an integration that renders traits of such cuisine subsumed within a larger framework. Amuse Bouche Champagne Henriot Brut 1990 I was happily sipping the developed champagne, nicely settled in. I really appreciate champagne, and Henriot 1990 pleased me not only because of its taste in the mouth, but also because this was a wonderful champagne that is not frequently available in US restaurants. (Also, I had never sampled the 1990 before.) I found the artwork on the wall facing me to be appealing. Depicting a woman with older-style clothing, but bringing in certain regions only her broader outline to view. The lighting also pleased. The amuses were presented together. One was a tuna tartare presented in a small bowl. It carried, I believe, ginger, chives, shallots or onions and lemon jus, among other flavors. The tartare brought to mind the fleshy meatiness of tuna, and was nice. The other amuse was a butternut squash veloute with small pieces of cashew and a plump ravioli with meat contents (perhaps oxtail?; I do not recall). I considered the amuses to be individually appropriate, but did not see their sum as being greater than the two parts (nor lesser, to be clear). Goeduck Clams, Finely sliced and seasoned with lime and fresh wasabi. Donnhoff Niederhauser Hermannshohle Riesling Spatlese, Nahe 2000 This course heralded the beginning of a lyrical meal. The knifework/cutting work was noteworthy on the petals of geoduck. Gently turning, tiny curly edges in certain areas; almost forming a curvaceous frilled ridge in certain areas. The “cut” of the geoduck enhanced the textural component of the dish, while also rendering it visually endearing. The geoduck portion lay in an indented middle section of a large curved bowl-like plate, with muted concentric circles in close proximity to one another lining the rims of the plate. The geoduck pieces’ flavor was enchantingly clear/pristine, and its texture appropriately crisp and clean. This dish carried the most delicious geoduck I recall ever having sampled, and I have sampled this product on at least 40 different occasions to date (albeit mostly in Chinese or Japanese restaurants). (I am interested in geoduck, including, among other things, because I have wanted to take in pieces from geoduck while they are still live, but we should not digress). The saucing of the geoduck was based on a sufficiently thin olive-oil that had appropriately muted lime connotations. The fresh wasabi was almost negligible in direct taste effect in the mouth, consistent with appropriateness of this item occupying a limited, supporting role in the dish. The fresh wasabi was not only sweeter than most fresh wasabi I have sampled (and, of course, than processed wasabi), it was also considerably more subtle (a favorable trait in my book). I also appreciated the control of the amount of pink Hawaiian sea salt in the dish. It was just appropriately subtle in this context – in the sense of not having a grain that would become pronounced and make the diner take added notice. An outstanding course. While the wasabi might generally lead the diner to consider analogies to Japanese cuisine, the utilization of the other accompaniments to the geoduck rendered such potential comparisons inappropriate (in a good way). The wasabi did not bring to mind Japanese cuisine, and it was intellectually pleasing to me in hindsight that it did not do so, except at the point in time when I first saw the name of this course on the menu. The color of the geoduck charmed me – the thin pieces were largely an ivory color, but they carried a slight blush tone. The color is difficult to described, as it was delicate, like the flush I sometimes see on my own cheeks after an intense meal or when the weather is very, very cold. Sea Scallop, Sauvignon Blanc reduced with passion fruit, sauteed cauliflower Michel Fonne Roemerberg Tokay-Pinot Gris 1999 Gras can cook scallops too :) I am demanding when it comes to scallops, which must be plump, “crisp” in texture and markedly undercooked relative to the level utilized at most restaurants in the US. At FF, Gras gets it right, with a scallop harboring a lusciously quasi-raw interior that begs to be taken in by me :) Nice utilization of a small section of caramelized cauliflower on top of the scallop, with appropriate limited browning along certain portions. Appropriately, the texture of the cauliflower still had some structure to it; it had not softened inappropriately. As significant as the appropriate undercooking of the scallop was the interesting saucing of this dish. The Sauvignon Blanc utilized in the saucing added a bit of acidity, but the saucing was more complex (in a good way) than suggested by the mention of that wine. There were buttery overtones to this yellow-colored, appropriate-consistency sauce. It was intriguing to me that the passion fruit was very, very subdued in the saucing. In fact, its main contribution was the slippery, glistening texture of the material coating the seeds felt on the tongue, instead of the citrus effects of the main fruit itself. There was a noticeable vanilla component to the saucing, including through dots of black grains relating to vanilla bean effects. However, it should be emphasized that the described components of the saucing, when brought together, resulted in an overall flavor that surprised me (favorably) and that was developed and appropriate. There were a hint of saltiness and some acidity to the saucing that pleased me, against the slightly stronger sweet notes from the vanilla. The sauce was concurrently acidic and salty and vanilla-conveying; it was also appropriately thin and warm (in an oddly comforting way in the context of this course). The wine pairing by Ms Chang was much appreciated here, although I’d have to say the Corton Charlemagne that followed was splendid with Chef Gras’ lobster dish as well :) Lobster Capuccino, Lobster broth emulsified with chestnuts, prawns and sauteed lobster 1/2 Bouchard Corton Charlemangne 2000 This excellent dish, together with the two before it, constituted a glorious arch in my meal at FF, with all respect to ensuing courses. The supple, blush-tainted section of a small lobster’s body is presented on a plate. Nestled close to it were several small poached Maine prawns. The lobster segment was flavorful, in a way that I am not accustomed to sampling for non-Brittany lobsters. It was cooked just right (i.e., significantly undercooked), with its inner portions having an added appealed. The texture was “crisp”, in the sense of the way the flesh gave in when taken in, and yet slightly supple (in a good way). The warm broth was poured onto the lobster and Maine prawns tableside. I took in the lobster and prawns early, to preserve their limited cooking levels. I appreciated the relative thinness of the broth, the coral-pinkish color of which pleased me considerably. While thin, the broth was rich in flavor, with the chestnuts included adding to the overall effect without being particularly noticeable. The lobster-stock-based broth had nice Cognac sensations, and its overall taste might, on the basis of a relatively simplistic comparison, have brought to mind that of certain lobster bisques. However, the thinness of the broth and its more refined taste clearly separated it from a lobster bisque. The inclusion in the broth of a bit of Esplette or similar pepper (in small amounts) was helpful, as was the limited “shot” of black pepper (Sarawak?) found very sparingly in the broth. I generally do not encourage the utilization of jolts of flavor as might result from the black pepper in this dish, but here I liked it because it was not jarring and further distinguished the broth from the sensations of a lobster bisque. The lobster capuccino appears to be on its way to becoming a signature dish of Chef Gras, together with the pork belly with black truffles dish that I have not yet sampled. I like Corton Charlemagne, and, while I generally prefer Bonneau de Martray, the ½ bottle version of the Bouchard 2000 was quite appealing with the lobster. Skate Wing, Caramelized, Bordelaise sauce and artichoke The skate may have the course I liked less in the meal, but even it was good-plus. A nice white Bordelais sauce with black truffle and somewhat crisp-tasting baby artichokes. The fish was of a high quality and well-prepared, which is not something I can say about many skate dishes sampled here in the US. The baby artichokes added a crispy texture to the dish which was appropriate. Hudson Valley Foie Gras, sauteed with licorice, quince "spring rolls", and bean sprouts, dipping sauce Renee Renou Bonnezeaux "Cuvee Zenith" 1997 A lusciously-cooked, fairly large piece of foie, with a wonderfully paired wine. To the side of this dish was a dipping sauce made of quince, Asian pear and rice wine vinegar – dark, acidic and rich. Appropriately dense dipping sauce, and very “different” (in this context, favorably so). I found the licorice on the surface of the foie to have been refreshing and enhancing, and to have given the dish a staying power in the throat (almost like when one takes in a mint and then inhales down one’s throat). That is the way that licorice should be utilized. It had a slight sweetness as well as an “herbiness”. Properly utilized, licorice should not remind the diner of the grotesque black licorice candy sticks available in the US. It should offer a slightly medicinal, slightly refreshing persistence. On the side were not only the above dipping sauce, but also small, refreshing leaves of lettuce. The lettuce was amusing to me (in a good way), because it fulfilled several functions. First, its freshness and its crunchiness mitigated some of the fatty sensations of the sauteed foie. This was particularly appreciated by me, because, as happy as I am to take in sauteed foie, I find it sometimes too much when taken in in meaningful quantities. I sometimes wrapped pieces I cut off from the large piece of foie for wrapping (with my utensils, of course) in the coolness of the lettuce. The raw bean sprouts pleased, in part because their neutral, plant-like taste helped (together with the lettuce and the effects of the licorice) to balance the intensity of the dipping sauce for the foie. Second, the lettuce added to the intellectual dimensions of the dish for diners familiar with the practice in Vietnamese cuisine of sometimes wrapping fried spring rolls (much larger rolls than that of the mini roll accompanying the foie in this dish) with larger pieces of lettuce. This link is hinted at by the tiny spring roll (about ½ the length of my pinky finger) that sat adjacent to the foie. :) While the small size of the spring roll made its precise contents relatively difficult to gauge, at least some elements were repeats from the dipping sauce described above (appropriately). One of the contents was a type of slippery medium-thickness vermicelli-like, translucent noodle that The outer layer of the spring roll was not as thin as I might have subjectively preferred, but it tasted appropriate. In some ways, this dish reminded me of the geoduck with wasabi course. This dish’s inspiration may have been drawn from an Asian dish (in this case, Vietnamese, instead of Japanese), but its overall effect had been so transformed by the chef that it no longer appeared to result in a dish representing fusion cuisine. It had just become part of a delicious and distinctive dish. This dish, relative to, say, the geoduck and the lobster capuccino, may be indicative that the tastes within a given FF meal have more pronounced ebbs and flows than those at, say, French Laundry, which, as Steve P and I discussed, probably at this point has a more internally consistent set of dishes constituting a framework for the restaurant’s cuisine than does FF. (Note this observation does not contain an implicit indication that one approach is preferable to another. Nor does it indicate I prefer one approach to the other.) Squab Breast Roasted with almonds and cumin, caramelized dumpling and salsify 1/2 Chateau Haut-Brion 1999 This squab dish was very good. Small slices of almonds coated the outside of the squab breast, which was cooked appropriately cooked to a medium level or slightly below that. A good sign, given my subjective belief that many meats tend to be overcooked at restaurants in the US. I liked the extremely limited effects (almost not noticeable) of the cumin in the seasoning of the squab too. There were too many almonds in the dish, however. The caramelized dumpling was appealing. The “pasta” outer layer was very thin, and was quasi-translucent with a golden tinge to its appearance. It had a slight feeling of oiliness (in a good way). Inside was confit of squab, which was appropriately dark-tasting. A robust-tasting dish. What can I say about the wine? :laugh: Haut-Bions, both red and white, are among my preferred wines :) The 1999 ½ bottle was, expectedly, slightly more developed than 1999 full bottles I have had. Kudos to the restaurant for carrying H-B in a ½ bottle. (FF carries H-B Blanc in 1982 and 1983. Had I not ordered the ½ bottle of Corton Charlemagne, I would have probably restrained myself and stuck with a bottle of Chassagne Montrachet, Ramonet 2000, at $90, though.) Ms Chang’s wine service was elegant and pleased me considerably. Veal Milanese Tournedos flavored with orange and parmesan, macaroni, spinach salad The FF kitchen substituted this dish, replacing a pork belly with black truffles dish that may be on its way to becoming one of the restaurant’s signature dishes and that I had been hoping to sample. When the dining room team member advised me it was veal, I was not encouraged because I have generally found veal to be poorly prepared (including at French Laundry, relative to other meats that are utilized for the second of the meat courses in the longest tasting menu) in restaurants in the US. Fortunately for me, there were no such problems at FF, and the veal was flavorful and not impeded by overcooking. Its texture was appropriately fleshy, and non-dense. The orange and parmesan flavors, while relatively pronounced in the dish, were also appropriate. In addition to overcooking veal, most restaurants (FF excluded) in the US tend to use jus-based saucing that, while potentially appropriate in certain circumstances, can get tiresome for a diner. Here, the orange flavors worked with respect to the veal offered. I liked this dish, which was among the stronger veal dishes I have had in the US. To the right of the plate with the veal, there was a longish serving plate with three items that included the spinach salad and the macaroni – nice touches. The veal dish was interesting to me because it relied in significant part on citrus flavors, as did the ensuing intermezzo dish and, to a much more limited extent, the scallop. However, the mix of the flavors inhering in different dishes presented during my FF meal stood in stark contrast to the overutilization throughout the progression of the meal of citrus flavors at Danko. Intermezzo Bermagot orange and Meyer lemon sorbet with citrus compote Delicious, particularly given my preference for Meyer lemon. Nice utilization of citrus peel in limited quantities, and nice general texture and “natural” taste-like components to the sorbet. Banana and Avocado Parfait Coconut financier, bananas baked in coconut milk This was a nice dessert. I would not have thought that bananas would have matched coconut and avocado flavors necessarily, but in this dish they worked. The exact quality of the desserts at FF is difficult to evaluate based on my single visit to date, but my preliminary assessment is favorable. I like bananas in desserts, to the extent they are not matched with chocolate (both in view of my subjective dislike of chocolate and because of the unduly traditional nature of chocolate as bananas’ accompaniment). Here, the bananas were not overwhelmed by chocolate and were about the same strength as the coconut and avocado components of the dessert. Avocado does have a fatty texture (when appropriately ripe) and a certain limited aroma that might render it a good match for certain more traditional dessert ingredients. The meal from Chef Gras, as ably brought forth by the dining room team, sang – sometimes pleasing me by murmuring flavors and other times tapping bolder notes. I am eager to be a part of Chef Gras’ audience again, in part because, as favorable as my first meal at Fifth Floor was, I am trying not to judge unduly hastily. Further Observations The meal was interesting to me in a number of respects apart from the dishes described above. First, I believe that, when cuisine takes risks, the resulting plate better be delicious, as I do not give a cuisinier the benefit of the doubt for having tried and fallen short. Fortunately, the risks taken at FF (relative to, say, Danko) worked. A related point is that dishes with multiple components to them – a certain obvious complexity of construction – had better have their components be internally consistent. (Internal inconsistency coupled with complexity is one of the major weaknesses in the cuisines of the Pourcels and Gagnaire, in my assessment). On both these dimensions, Gras’ cuisine was appealing. Second, I like to sample the cuisine of the direct and indirect progeny of Chef Senderens, with whom I took in my first ever three-star meal. Even though Chef Gras was sous-chef to other three-star chefs (Ducasse and Guy Savoy), Chef Gras is described (like Senderens, with whom he worked at a relatively early stage in his career, I believe) as liking to collect ancient recipes and I had had certain expectations relative to potentially updated ancient recipes. That is an aspect of Chef Gras’ cuisine that is impracticable to investigate over the course of a meal or even several meals. However, it is an aspect of Gras’ cuisine in which I am interested. The below article appears to suggest Gras utilizes certain old cookbooks from the nineteenth century, which would, of course, be dated very significantly earlier than the books in my personal set. However, the process Gras describes of being in dialogue with chefs from the past, through the cookbooks, is somewhat interesting to me. http://www.foodandwine.com/invoke.cfm?objectID=E60CB6DB-9D71-11D5-826A0002B3309983&method=display Third, there is an attention to detail in Gras’ cuisine that I have thus far found to be appealing. An attention to small things through technique, to details about the composition of a dish, to the cut of a geoduck section. Fourth, Chef Gras’ cuisine has been described in certain articles as not utilizing significant amounts of butter and cream. While that might have been the case, I would not have guessed that was a underlying consideration in the chef’s cuisine. The flavors are appropriately rich, for applicable dishes, for example. Dining Room Teams Chef Gras’ maitre d’ was poised, articulate, and had all the other qualities that I consider to be favorable. He appeared approachable and proactive, and yet also allowed me sufficient “space” in the context of the meal. He will be very helpful to the chef, as will the sommelier team. The non-sommelier dining room team members were very gracious and knowledgeable about Chef Gras’ cuisine. FF should consider applying to become part of Relais Chateaux. Its service is among the very best I have experienced in the US. Based on second-hand information, Ms Chang inherited a strong wine list from her predecessor. Having no direct information on the FF wine list before her arrival, I can say that it is very robust now – replete with verticals; good breadth as well as depth; strength in, among other things, Burgundies. Decor This restaurant is luscious-looking, in a contemporary and distinctive way, and is characterized by dark woods in tobacco and chocolate tones. It does not have an unduly masculine feel, as the artwork on the walls tempers that. Other Information There is a significant bar area, where the full dining menu is available, as well as an area adjacent to the bar with tables (presumably offering the same cuisine). An affiliated website suggests that the bar area can accommodate over 20 people. While these areas are not as evocative as the main dining areas, they still offer an appealing environment for dining in the event an advance reservation has not been made. Beyond the bar and related areas and closer to the entryway to the restaurant following the elevator ride, there is significant seating for drinks, etc. The bar area appears to offer opportunities in particular for last-minute visitors to sample FF’s cuisine. Alex Lee, executive chef at Daniel, was dining at the FF bar area on the night I visited. The restaurant is located in a boutique hotel called Hotel Palomar. When I last checked, rates for a weekend night were relatively reasonable, beginning at around $199. Based on my review of the lobby, the hotel appeared relatively modern and to constitute a good resting place following a dinner at FF. Valet parking is available, at $12 approx. To access Hotel Palomar, one drives along Stockton towards the South, until one passes Market and Stockton in effect becomes Fourth Street. As there are no left turns onto Fourth from Market, diners should note that they are best off accessing the hotel using Stockton and following the street as it becomes Fourth St. The restaurant is indeed located on the Fifth Floor. Fri Jun 20 12:14:50 -0700 2003 0 cabrales 1 96636 Great writeup ! Now, you are swaying my choice - I had chosen Gary Danko for our anniversary dinner. But recently, considering Ritz Carlton and now Fifth Floor ??? Fri Jun 20 12:28:17 -0700 2003 96635 0 Han Lukito 2 96638 Forget about Ritz Carlton.It isnt very reliable. Gary Danko or Fifth Floor are the two that I would consider..and if I had to make a choice I would err on the side of Fifth Floor. A friend from Europe alerted me to Fifth Floor. She is a trade attache with one of the embassies. She thinks it is hands down one of the best restaurants in the US and many consulate and embassy people eat there. Fri Jun 20 13:24:38 -0700 2003 96636 0 Chaobaby 3 96660 I agree regarding The Dining Room, which I also recently visited, being clearly far below FF and GD as an haute cuisine venue. One might imagine that Sylvan Portay, like Gras a Ducasse protege, might be inspired, but he is not. Gary Danko is my second favorite restaurant in SF (excluding surrounding areas). I ate there recently too, and would also recommend it. I believe both FF and GD are stronger than any restaurant in NY (except, for my subjective tastes, for Blue Hill). There are write-ups of my two meals at GD this year on another board. Fri Jun 20 15:43:25 -0700 2003 96638 0 cabrales 2 96650 I had dinner at FF twice last year and was very convinced by Laurent Cras's fundamental technique and creativity. One of the dishes I never forget is the halibut. I had never had halibut cooked so perfect before in terms of texture. Fri Jun 20 14:19:27 -0700 2003 96636 0 Dyno 2 96666 I don't know if this helps any, but my husband and I found the food at the Fifth Floor to be richer than the food at GD. Now, I don't mean that richer is necessarily better, only that it's like the difference between winter and summer food. Or a braised dish as opposed to a grilled. When we tried to pin down what distinguished FF from GD we, oddly enough, settled on the sauces. In the end, while we admired FF immensely, we concluded that our tastes actually lean more toward the GD side--since I'm Cantonese and grew up in California, I guess I just usually prefer foods that highlight the food itself more than the cooking technique. Fri Jun 20 16:58:29 -0700 2003 96636 0 PegS 2 96669 After reading this poster on another dining forum I was convinced this was where I would have my 20th anniversary dinner this year. Can't wait till July. Fri Jun 20 18:39:42 -0700 2003 96636 0 Marilayne 1 96658 Why the constant negativity about US food? I imagine a good portion of the FF's food is home-grown in the US! Fri Jun 20 15:28:47 -0700 2003 96635 0 annie 2 96661 To say that X is not as good as Y is not negativity if both X and Y are good, but Y is clearly better than X. As for my long-held belief that haute cuisine in France is superior to that in the US, that is my subjective belief and, for me at least, "the thing speaks for itself." :) Fri Jun 20 15:45:48 -0700 2003 96658 0 cabrales 3 96810 It's good to understand your prejudice in reading your review. Thanks for being up front about it. Mon Jun 23 17:22:27 -0700 2003 96661 0 Morgan 4 96859 Prejudice has such negative connotations, implying almost that the subjective *preference* (the way I see it) is somehow unjustified. ;) Tue Jun 24 08:51:38 -0700 2003 96810 0 cabrales 5 96869 Yeah, you're right--sorry. It's probably because I'm not very fond of French food, much preferring the simpler Italian style. That's my prejudice. ;-) Tue Jun 24 13:32:41 -0700 2003 96859 0 Morgan 1 96662 Here's my recent Gary Danko meal. After my lunch at Slanted Door, and a 1/2 Dungeness crab-snack at 4:30 at Fishermen's Wharf, I arrived at Gary Danko at 5:20. The restaurant was buzzing with activity even at that time. I was positioned at the bar to wait for my dining companion, and sipped Perrier Joet Rose (1/2 glass for $10). I have always liked coming to this restaurant, and tonight was no exception. The service team was professional and earnest and informed, including one of the sommeliers who was French and who had worked at AD Plaza Athenee. We were seated in the same room (LHS of entryway) as before, but were along the LHS of the wall. I ceded the banquette to my dining companion. That meant I was facing the wall, with its greyish glazed large artwork which had little areas of reduced color, like blue effects when one sees water in great detail. I like this room better than the RHS room, which is busier and less secluded-feeling. Amuse was green asparagus soup, with duck confit and pimento oil on top. The green asparagus tasted like green pea in texture, although it did carry asparagus tastes. The duck confit seemed very smokey to me, in its little dubes, like bacon. While my dining companion did not necessarily agree, I thought this was a play on green pea and ham soup, made in a more refined way. (1) Glazed Oysters with Leeks, Salsify and Oscetra Caviar My dining companion and I each ordered this dish, which was the dish I had ordered previously and had been delicious. Tonight, it was even better than it had been before. Small, plump, almost roundish-shaped Miyag, which were only slightly larger than Kumamotos, had been utilized (3 of them). Then, on top of each, a reasonably good amount of oscetra caviar (instead of the mix of three or two caviars we had received last time). The buttery-conveying saucing was luke-warm, and the salsify were like little potato, thin discs at the bottom of the bowl. This was a satisfying dish that I continued to like. The chives included in the dish were a plus, although they were not particularly noticeable in the dish. (2) Soft Shell Crab with Thai Red Curry and Jasmin Rice This dish was only average. The soft shell crab was whole and fried, and perched on top of a bound of nicely-flavored jasmin rice. The soft shell crab was average, although admittedly the frying was appropriate. The most interesting part of the dish was a mesh of apparent baby greens on top of the dish -- they were peppery and quite aggressive tasty and might have had certain minty connotations. They were in fact fried chive sprouts (sometimes the restaurant did not fry them, we were told by the dining room team member). The red curry was quite mild, and had coconut sensations. A slight bit of heat in the residual flavor, but very little. (3) Foie Gras and Duck Confit Terrine with Vanilla Brioche and Meyer Lemon Chutney This was a very nice dish. A thinnish slice of fairly large terrine that was delicate. Most of it was clean-tasting, delicate foie, but there were marbled areas of duck meat integrated. The vanilla brioche was in thin slices as well (almost rectangular, 2 thin small ones). Nice combination, with extremely limited (appropriately) vanilla sensations. Meyer lemon chutney was very good, with a nice control of the sweet vs. sour and just being the right amount of sweet. There were little grains that I could not identify and that had a glistening texture (almost like passion fruit seeds, but softer on the inside like certain tomato seeds, although they were slightly sweet and nutty) that were helpful to the dish. Frisee was over-utilized in this dish. (4) Warm Quail Salad with Potato Cannoli and Cherries This dish was outstanding by US standards. A small quail that had been quartered, with the two breast pieces very nicely prepared (not as rare as I would like, but nice), and encrusted/browned with some spicing. Supple quail flesh that was a bit peppery from the method of preparation. Most pleasing to me -- there was a wobbly, very runny, hard-boiled quail's egg lodged between the thigh/legs of the quail, which was arranged with the breasts and legs sort of resembling the way the quail would be. How amazing. The quail's egg was larger than the high, almost, and it pleased me so. A very provocative presentation as well. The quail was nice and slightly spicy. The thighs were the same way, but I could easily crack the bone and the bone, when crunched, tasted like crunchy skin or something browned that was appealing. I was a very happy camper. A bit superfluous in the dish were various greens, which were evergreen-colored and intended to convey slight bitterness. Not a negative, but probably not required. An appealing part of the dish was the way the halved bing cherries worked with the jus-based brown saucing. Just delicious, and I have a special weakness for cherries. Augmented the tones of the saucing, and was a very good match for the quail. Dining room team member indicated that grapes had been used in a prior period; the cherries were much better choices. My dining companion really enjoyed this dish too. (5) Beef Medallion with Wild Nettle Risotto and Mushroom Confit A good-to-very-good dish, although the beef was overcooked relative to my request for rare (emphatic). The cooking level was more like medium rare, but the texture of the beef was still attractive. An aggressively sauced dish, like many beef dishes in the US. The beef was nicely crusty on the outside, and it was a roundish medallion as one would expect. On top of the beef were some dark, braised morels. On top of them were a mushroom called "beech", which I had never before encountered to my knowledge. They were tiny, and tasted like slippery tiny mousserons. Below the beef was a risotto of nettle. Darker than spinach. Baby carrots on top of the risotto were superfluous and could have been eliminated from the dish. A bit of Cheese Course -- The dining room team member suggested that my dining companion pick 3-4 selections. My dining companion picked livarot (not well-aged), a Spanish blue of Valdeon and two others. Small purple grapes served with cheese were fairly good. Fri Jun 20 15:59:19 -0700 2003 96635 0 cabrales 2 96668 This would be better with a "Gary Danko" subject line. Perhaps if the powers that be delete this you could be persuaded to re-post? BTW, thanks for the great post! Fri Jun 20 17:44:47 -0700 2003 96662 0 Paul H 1 96687 That was a pretty good review by US standards. Sat Jun 21 03:13:44 -0700 2003 96635 0 no one 1 96702 Because of this report and the review in Patricia Unterman's "San Francisco Food Lover's Guide" I've swapped out Elisabeth Daniel for Fifth Floor. Hope I'm making the right decision, though I think either would be good. New schedule of dinners: Wed: Chez Panisse Thu: Fifth Floor Fri: Masa's Sat: Gary Danko Sun: French Laundry You guys have too many good choices, I need 2 weeks and a much higher salary. Sat Jun 21 14:58:41 -0700 2003 96635 0 Nick 2 96703 >> On Masa's, I ate there earlier this year. Below, an old report of that meal. I don't have a favorable assessment of Fleur de Lys, and have never eaten at Elizabeth Daniels. I don't know what to recommend, should you relinquish the Masa's reservation. Note that Masa's is a very visually pleasing restaurant, to me. I had a good (by US standards), rather mundane, meal at Masa's last night. I took in the special V-day menu solo at the attractive bar area. There was a certain lack of eventfulness to the meal, although the decor and the "atmospherics" of the restaurant were very much to my liking. The cuisine at Masa's is considerably less appealing under Siegel (spelling?) than previously under Serrano, although I have only eaten once (last night) at Masa's under Siegel. Gorgeous decor, with high ceilings being highlighted by a thin white curtain leading into the dining room. The bar area, with four seats, is situated before the partition represented by the curtain. Inside, a medium-reddish set of large lamps suspended from the ceiling. Sculptures representing persons in a copper/bronze-color -- very modern -- adorn the upper reaches of certain columns towards the middle of the dining area. Each table had a "short" vase with clipped roses, running from white to a blush pink in gradations of evocative color. I had a little vase by me too, and the "refreshing" scent of the white/blush roses pleased. The decor has improved from that in the restaurant under Serrano. The bar was adorned with a large vase of medium pink cherry-flower-like blossoms (?). The bar stools had backs, and were of a plush white-leather-type material. Beautiful white thin curtain separating bar area from main dining room. Bar area has large comfy leather bar chairs with backs (4). Pacman large shaped bar with lots of area for placing dishes (almost V shaped from perspective of bar person). Gorgeous. For Valentine's Day, Masa was offering couples different dishes for each person. As I was dining solo, I got to choose for each course between the two selections available that evenings. The V-Day menu was priced more highly, I suspect. – Amuses were asparagus (green) with Hollandaise and black truffle. A very clean, and “safe” preparation that did not whet my appetite for the rest of the meal, but it was not affirmatively poor. – Chilled Salsify Veloute. Hog Island Oyster, Osetra Caviar, Leeks. Taken with glass of Krug. This disappointed after the first bite, which was quite good because of the concentration of the hog island oyster and the caviar in that bite (from the middle of the veloute). After that, the salsify veloute tasted acceptable, but too neutral. Cauliflower or even celeryroot would have been better, I believe. Below the veloute (medium consistency) was a denser mixture reflecting pureed leeks – perhaps not a bad idea, but too dense and too voluminous relative to the salsify veloute. Overall, average dish. The bartender asked what would be better than Krug Grand Cuvee, freshly opened. I said Krug Clos de Mesnil or Salon, easily. Leaving that aside, a nice champagne offered by the glass, in the low $30s range (?). I really like drinking Krug, although I can’t say that the non-Clos de Mesnil is something I adore over Salon or Bollinger RD or even Deutz Blanc de Blancs and certain Selosses. – Crab Salad. Citrus Segments, Avocado, Page Mandarin Gelee. This was at best average-minus. An ordinariness (with respect to US cuisine) to the dish that was not aided by the starkness of the citrus components. Gelee was too citrusy and avocado is, in my mind, no longer an interesting match for crab and is overutilized because of California rolls, etc. Also, avocado lacked fattiness in this dish. Navel orange segments did not help the dish. A misconceived-of dish that disappointed. Crabmeat itself seemed slightly bland. – Butter Poached Maine Lobster. Sunchoke Puree and Black Truffle Sauce Taken with a glass of Montaigny. The sommelier is weak for a restaurant at this level. First, he does not speak French. Second, he recommended a CA white that was way too fruity for this dish, despite the sweetness in the sunchoke puree. My choice of Montaigny by the glass was much better, and the sommelier conceded that when he gifted me voluntarily a glass of Montaigny after having poured his choice. I did not complain about his choice, but I think he realized he had made a not-so-great recommendation to me. This lobster dish was average-minus, particularly when judged against the harsh light of butter-poached lobster dishes sampled at French Laundry. It would be that rating even without my newly acquired context for evaluating butter poached lobster dishes. First, there was no fattiness or lusciousness from the butter poaching. Second, the lobster tasted kind of bland. Third, the chervil on top of the butter did not look “fresh”; it was a palid green that left one wondering how long it had been sitting around. Of course, I did not take in the chervil. Third, the sunchoke puree was too sweet for the dish and overwhelmed the weak lobster component. The sunchoke puree tasted a bit like celeryroot puree that had lots of sugar in it. Not attractive. Nice looking “modern, artsy” presentation of black truffle sauce on plate. – California Quail. Crispy Sweetbreads and Romaine Hearts Taken with 1/2 bottle Chateauneuf du Pape, Vieux Telegraphe 2000 (under $50), which was passable arguably. This dish was only average. It was cooked appropriately medium rare, and had chives. The sauce was too thin for the quail, and the sweetbread pieces were tiny and fried to the point where one could have been told it was fried anything. Not good way to sample sweetbreads. Onions cooked down and romaine hearts in small sections were alright, but I found the onions too dominant. I have been ordering a lot of quail recently. Partly because I have always ordered a lot of quail, when it is on the menu, but also because I am finding veal and non-special-breed pork less appealing. I suppose that has always been the case. Another problem is that US chickens are not as delicious as Bresse and other breeds of chicken, so I may not end up ordering chicken either. Venison is often a choice I make in the US as well, if I have to order a meat dish. Increasingly, I don’t feel the need to sample red meats during a meal. That’s part of what I like about the BH menus I sometimes receive. They’re not entirely predictable with respect to inclusion of a red meat, and chicken is given its due (chicken that is appropriately flavorful). – Beef Rib-Eye Medallion. Black Truffle and Bone Marrow Croquette, Wild Mushroom Risotto. This was the only delicious dish in the meal. Cooked rare, and flavored robustly. Nice use of jus-based saucing, and nice risotto with shitakes and girolles cooked appropriately and incorporated in small sections into the rice. Deep black truffle flavor that pleased. However, the bone marrow croquette is not meaningful – the marrow was not articulated clearly and the small disc of croquette could have been anything. No molten sensations; no sense of fattiness from the marrow. – Pear Sorbet. Pomegranate Gelee. Taken with a glass of Chenin Blanc dessert wine version. This was clean-tasting and appropriate. The pear sorbet had nice granularity (limited to it), although the pomegranate gelee would not necessarily remind one of pomegranate. – Warm Apple Charlotte. Crispy Brioche Crust, Ginger Ice Cream. I ate very little of this dessert. It didn’t seem that special, not that I recall its exact taste. :( – Lollipop/chocolate/mignardises trolley slightly reminiscent of ADNY is brought forth. Dining room team seemed surprised that I only took a single candied orange rind and a single piece of green apple gelee/pate de fruits. I wonder how greedy other customers were, if they seemed so surprised by my perceived restraint. Overall, cuisines comes across as a bit antiseptic (with the exception of the beef entree) and as lacking a motivational philosophy, in my mind. But for the beef dish, I would have rated the meal average or average-plus – a terrible ranking for a restaurant with Masa’s ranking from the guides. Serrano’s cuisine at Masa was a lot better. Have only sampled Serrano at Picasso once; need to consider revisiting. General Notes – d’Yqeum available by the glass (on that night, it was ‘88 for $48, but I did not buy it). – The red lampshades really please me. – Washroom is outside, I remember (i.e., in the hotel). I very nicely paid the check before leaving for the washroom, not that there were any concerns necessarily on the part of the bar team members. – Bar seating is very comfortable, although ther eis a bit of a draft. – Maitre d’ is French and Italian-speaking and hails from Italy. He worked with Serrano, and has been with the restaurant for about 3 years – Clients are pretentious, some of them – Takes BYO; query corkage >> I tried Aqua under Laurent Manique. There's a $40 five-course prix fixe lunch (no choice) that recently included (1) Michael Mina's Ahi tuna tartare (with quail's egg, sesame oil, mixed at the table with diced garlic, diced pear, pine nuts and various peppers, (2) Mina's crab cakes (dry and not appealing), (3) scallops with green apples, haricot vert, (4) poached sole with hazelnut and porcinis, and (5) a chocolate-based dessert. Not at the level of Fifth Floor or Danko, by a wide margin, although not necessarily worse than Fleur de Lys. Nice champagne by the glass recently at Aqua (Henriot 1990 and Bollinger Grand Annee 1996). I wouldn't necessarily recommend Aqua. >> Note Fifth Floor has a $65 (?) pre-theater dinner menu. I do not know whether it offers the same dishes as the regular tasting menu. However, members interested in saving funds may wish to inquire. Sat Jun 21 15:15:32 -0700 2003 96702 0 cabrales 2 96704 Nick -- As the dining room team at Gary Danko will advise, when a 3, 4 or 5-course meal is chosen, you have freedom to pick as many courses from each "section" of the menu as you wish. The only exception is that the diner is only allowed one choice from the "Meats and Game Birds" or similarly named section of the menu (subject to the exception, usually not described by the dining room team, that there are typically 1-2 vegetable dishes under that section, and you can choose the veggie dishes and a meat dish). If you are dining as two or more diners, it's not a problem for one diner to pick dessert and the other diner to, for example, pick neither dessert nor cheese. For a more detailed description of a meal earlier this year on Gary Danko, consider viewing another board and searching for the name of that restaurant. Sat Jun 21 15:23:37 -0700 2003 96702 0 cabrales 3 96727 Sounds like we need some extra diners to try more stuff....We have two openings since it's a reservation for 4 I haven't switched to 2 yet. Any takers? Sun Jun 22 03:51:16 -0700 2003 96704 0 Nick 2 96706 Assuming that you're going to the Restaurant at Chez Panisse (as opposed to the more casual cafe) you could consider Chez Panisse on Fri or Sat if you want more courses -- the menu gets more elaborate with more courses as the week progresses. Stylistically, it's very different from all the other places you're going to, and it might be nice to have a change in the middle. As a side note, it's purely a matter of taste, but the other strategy you could consider is to try other kinds of foods to break the French/American/Californian monotony. Happy eating. :) Sat Jun 21 16:43:27 -0700 2003 96702 0 Limster 3 96707 I agree with Limster. Nick, also note that the menu for each evening is set (i.e., no choice), if it has not changed from when I went last 2 years ago. That means it's advisable to check what the menu will be beforehand (it's usually posted with not that much time to spare, but still can be checked). I'm sure this has been discussed previously, but I thought I would mention it here. http://www.chezpanisse.com/downmenu.html Corkage is $20, so Chez Panisse is a good place to consider BYOing. Sat Jun 21 16:54:58 -0700 2003 96706 0 cabrales 3 96726 All good points that I have thought about. Basically, lunch is going to be what breaks the monotony. I'm pretty interested in trying Slanted Door, eg, and maybe Yank Sing. Also will probably try to hit some taqueria places. The problem, really, is that SF's best of the best seem to be within the same cuisine. That's always somewhat the case since French and New American make up most haute cuisine restaurants. It's nice, like when I was in Chicago for a food trip, when you get a place (Arun's) that's a Mobil **** and serves Thai. Or, like in Dallas, a place (The Mansion) that serves Southwest. Or in DC, a **** serving southern/soul (Vidalia). Or here in Portland, a little less uncommon, a **** Italian place (Genoa). But by-and-large, the top-rated places in Zagat, Mobil, Newspapers, and so on, are French and New American. They can charge the dough to get the best ingredients, too, which just solidifies their place. For that very reason, I'm questioning whether I want to hit Zenon for lunch, eg. Do I really want Chez Panisse light for lunch? So I'd be very interested to hear good lunch suggestions for the best ethnic food, especially that which is as good as I'm likely to get anywhere in the country. If you want to see some similar trips I've made check out the two links below: http://www.chowhound.com/southwest/boards/texas/messages/7434.html http://www.chowhound.com/midatlantic/boards/dc/messages/21500.html Sun Jun 22 03:47:06 -0700 2003 96706 0 Nick 4 96745 I think another reason that most 4-star restaurants are French or "New American" is the bias of the reviewers, who are more comfortable and familiar with the cuisine. Also, fine dining is usually defined in European terms (i.e., a style of dining that includes wine and a certain type of service). So basically the only "ethnic" restaurants that qualify are those that have Westernized to some extent. Sun Jun 22 21:11:45 -0700 2003 96726 0 Ruth Lafler 5 96747 Should state upfront that my experiences are already quite dated, and will defer to more up-to-date hounds to make better recommendations, but here are some general comments. For high-end chow, judging by the menus I've seen in the past, some of the HK/Cantonese places in the Bay Area might to be able to pull of a fairly serious banquet. However, it's probably not a good idea for Nick as banquets like these will require tables of ten or so diners. I was wondering if anyone has tried such a banquet, as it would be interesting to see how well classics like Buddha Jump Over The Wall are rendered there. It can be rather complementary, as very different sets of ingredients are used (e.g. dried abalone or scallops, and other delicacies), and there's better attention to teas, which often aren't as carefully selected in the French/Cal/New American places (CP being an exception), or even in some of the "temples of gastronomy" in France. On another note, kaiseiki at a Japanese place like Kyo-Ya or going to town at some of the sushi places could potentially be a good option. Sun Jun 22 21:36:33 -0700 2003 96745 0 Limster 6 96748 I suppose some folks might feel culturally uncomfortable with Nick's dining itinerary, but successive nights of eating at Chez Panisse, Fifth Floor, Masa's, Gary Danko, and The French Laundry sounds like a once-in-a-lifetime culinary adventure to me! I'm jealous. We just need to make sure that Nick's heart doesn't attack him before he gets a chance to report back on his impressions. Sun Jun 22 21:42:36 -0700 2003 96747 0 Paul H 7 96757 The line-up sounds good to me, too, although I think there's a risk of becoming temporarily jaded after about the third such dinner in as many nights: what, fois gras *again*! I was just responding to his comments about the fact that all the "four-star" restaurants are French/Cal by pointing out that the rating system is the product of people who are rating restaurants based on their own personal biases and not of a system where each restaurant is judged by experts in that particular cuisine and style of dining and judged by those standards and not by how well they fit standards created to measure a totally different cuisine. Mon Jun 23 00:29:53 -0700 2003 96748 0 Ruth Lafler 6 96764 As a side note, China Village has a "soup" called Buddha Delight as a special most weekends that is a stripped down and less expensive take on Buddha Jumps over the Wall. It was the soup selection at the April chowdown there. Personally, I loved it and would like to pre-order the works sometime. But others at the table found it too rich and filling for a soup (this is chunky and chockful of many ingredients), and the flavors (dried scallop, chinese-style ham) were also too unfamiliar for some. Mon Jun 23 02:07:07 -0700 2003 96747 0 Melanie Wong 7 96769 Many thanks -- will have to try it! Mon Jun 23 02:36:50 -0700 2003 96764 0 Limster 5 96772 Yeah, I used to think this. I've been to some ethnic restaurants that are right up there. The best so far is clearly Arun's in Chicago. They serve **** Thai. It was 9 courses, I believe, no menu, just whatever the chef decided on for the table. About half the items were served family style. The interior was gorgeous, the service very good (though a few blips here and there), and the food excellent (with a couple minor exceptions). When places like Mobil are reviewing they are reviewing restaurants, not just food. Admittedly, I can be happy with some great bbq or a yellow curry or some tacos de carnitas and so on. But it seems to be, for whatever reason (and I think it's largely a chicken and egg phenomenon), that French/New American places are where the best chefs go, where the envelope is being pushed, where the best ingredients are being used, and where the service and decor matches the quality of the food. Besides the French culinary tradition, it seems that the Japanese culinary tradtion is the other most likely to bring everything together. But still there's only one ***** Japanese restaurant in the US. All the others are French or New American. Note that there aren't even any Italian places that have attained *****. And you rarely even see other European restaurants (even in Europe) reaching the highest rankings. French food just seems to command the money required to get the chefs, buy the ingredients, and run a restaurant in a way that make the experience of dining something special, not just eating good food, but eating great food in a great place. Mon Jun 23 04:20:01 -0700 2003 96745 0 Nick 6 96857 If you have time to leave the City, you might want to check out Turmerik in Sunnyvale (recent post linked below) for a non-French/New American restaurant with fine dining aspirations. It's modeled after the best restaurants in India's 5-star hotels. After downsizing with the downturn in the Silicon Valley economy, I wouldn't put it in the same category as the Fifth Floor. Yet, the wine list is stellar and was created by superstar sommelier Rajat Parr, formerly of Fifth Floor and currently wine director for the Mina Group. If you check the restaurant's website, which is linked in that thread, you can go to the reviews from local papers which focus more on the presentation and atmosphere than I did to get a fuller sense of the place. We're in agreement on the chicken/egg phenomenon at play. I touched on this with Turmerik's Executive Chef Arvind Bhargava when I said that the most common complaint is that the prices are too high for Indian food. Even though his tandoori chicken might be the best in the Western hemisphere, a lot of people can't taste the difference and won't pay a premium for something they think should be cheap. I asked him to bring us the innovative cooking from modern Indian kitchens, not fusion, but new dishes firmly rooted in his own tradition. People might be willing to buy innovation and quality when they have no prior frame of reference. There are many examples of this among our local Chinese restaurants. When the Hong Kong-owned palaces first touched down here, their price points were a pretty big uptick above what we were used to paying and had top notch service to match. Yet, over time, the price differential isn't as great, quality has come down to match, and the service is far less crisp than the early days. I suspect they've found that there aren't that many Chinese multi-millionaires around here to be special occasion restaurants only and need to reach the mid-market too. I'm trying to do my part to dispel the notion that Chinese is synonymous with cheap take-out food. We've had chow dinners at $50 a head to give folks an idea of the kind of delicacies that the cuisine can offer at that price point. However, that's barely above the bottom quartile of Chinese banquet pricing. While chowhounds jump at the chance to try French Laundry at $175+ per person, I don't know that I could round up a table for a Chinese meal at $100+ a head. Even if I could, I'm unsure of what the experience at the restaurant would be like. While I believe that the kitchens could be up to the task, the staff don't perform at that level of service every day and might not be as polished as they should be for that tariff. In the Far East, when you get up to equivalent price points, the place settings are silver-plated chopsticks and Limoges china, and the staff do nearly everything but chew your food for you. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/24504#95752 Tue Jun 24 04:14:35 -0700 2003 96772 0 Melanie Wong 7 96867 Melanie observed: "I'm trying to do my part to dispel the notion that Chinese is synonymous with cheap take-out food. We've had chow dinners at $50 a head to give folks an idea of the kind of delicacies that the cuisine can offer at that price point. However, that's barely above the bottom quartile of Chinese banquet pricing. While chowhounds jump at the chance to try French Laundry at $175+ per person, I don't know that I could round up a table for a Chinese meal at $100+ a head." I agree that it would be difficult to assemble a group willing to pay $100+/person in SF for Chinese cuisine. However, that partly reflects preconceptions on the part of much of the dining population and it reflects the quality of the Chinese cuisine to be had in North America. Aas you noted, many times that amount per person is paid for Chinese cuisine in certain contexts. Fook Lam Moon in Hong Kong is one example of haute Chinese cuisine that I would be happy paying, and have paid, more (without wine, as the restaurant is BYO) than the cost per person of the most expensive French Laundry meal I have had (with wine). In particular, for large top-quality abalone and unusual live fish species, the price increases. Tue Jun 24 12:05:28 -0700 2003 96857 0 cabrales 7 96921 Isn't it amazing how people are more than willing to "pay up" for French cuisine or sushi, they balk at doing so for Indian or Chinese food. I have to admit that while I'm more than willing to pony up the bucks for almost any kind of fish, I don't think I "get" abalone. I appreciate and enjoy its unusual texture, but I the flavor isn't that appealing to me. I also have to admit that I don't get shark's fin soup, either. I'm noticing that more restaurants are serving a "mid-priced" shark's fin soup -- much more expensive than other soups, but not up in the stratosphere. Is this authentic shark's fin soup? Wed Jun 25 01:01:32 -0700 2003 96857 0 Dave Feldman 8 96922 I think they can all be authentic, but sharks fin can come in different grades, and prices for that will vary considerably. I can't say I know a whole lot about this delicacy (there's several species of sharks etc...) but I understand that the best fins, generally retain their form after very serious long cooking. They're cooked and crunchy, but the best ones are still an intact fin, while the lower grades might fall apart into individual shreds. Wed Jun 25 01:54:25 -0700 2003 96921 0 Limster 9 96925 Here's a photo of the shark's fin soup served at Sun Tung Lok in Taipei. Top grade stuff. A Chinese New Years dinner there some 10 years ago was the most expensive meal ($300+ per person for food alone) I'd eaten to date. It set a new record for our company too, and subsequently, our employees were prohibited from entertaining there. (vbg) I'm not advocating consumption of shark's fin. Image: http://www.taipeitimes.com/images/2000/11/10/20001108203527.jpeg Wed Jun 25 03:05:18 -0700 2003 96922 0 Melanie Wong 10 96942 Melanie observed: "I'm not advocating consumption of shark's fin." My subjective position is that one should be free to choose whether to take in shark's fin or not, and that is my position with respect to beluga caviar, Chilean sea bass, arguably endangered small birdies, force-fed geese for foie, tuna the trapping methods for which is unclear, etc. As much as I try to take into account societal objectives (incl. perpetuation of other species, discouragement of cruelty in any trapping and fattening up of certain animals, mitigation of disruptions to ecological systems), I recognize that I am selfish when it comes to cuisine and I will have to weigh my own gastronomic interests much more heavily than the needs of other parties. I'd have to admit that the scarcity of certain products may add to my enjoyment of their tastes. :) I really enjoy taking in shark's fin when it is of top quality and well-prepared (in the typical soup-type preparation, the quality of the broth is as crucial as the quality of the fin). AS I mentioned before, Fook Lam Moon in HK is an excellent venue for this. (Consider ordering the version without the crabmeat, as it tends to facilitate the sampling of the shark's fin.) Wed Jun 25 12:31:37 -0700 2003 96925 0 cabrales 10 97226 Melanie, it's funny that you mentioned Sun Tung Lok in Taipei. I dined there many many times (never paid the bill) when I was on extended business trip there. The food were good, but I was never really impressed. The more trouble I had was in business occation there people like to bring top wine to the expensive dinner, and the 1982 Latour or Mouton was never a good match with the food. Fri Jun 27 20:58:46 -0700 2003 96925 0 Dyno 11 97247 Surprisingly, Sun Tung Lok hasn't been discussed on this site. I did a search and only came up with my own mention from a couple years ago. There's an International message board for posting chow info for Taipei, but no reports there. Yup, the conspicuous consumption at some of these dinners at the expense of good taste (food and otherwise) could get pretty pricey. Sat Jun 28 04:00:17 -0700 2003 97226 0 Melanie Wong 10 98250 I want shell shark's fin and sea cucumber Wed Jan 28 09:29:55 -0800 2004 96925 0 roland goana 8 96926 Actually Mark at our recent Grüner Veltliner/Hong Kong seafood dinner expressed the same sentiments about abalone. OTOH, Bryan was kind enough to count the number of thick slices of dried abalone to make sure there were enough to go around the table. (g) What kind of abalone have you been eating? Fresh, canned or dried? And, if fresh, farmed or wild? Red or black? While canned abalone has the least flavor, dried abalone has an intense smokey taste that is unrivaled, imo. My encounters with fresh wild abalone are much too infrequent these days for me to remember which has the superior taste between red and black, but there is a big difference. The sweetness of wild abalone - oh how I miss it! Link: http://www.abcamp.com/abalonesong.lasso Wed Jun 25 03:09:32 -0700 2003 96921 0 Melanie Wong 9 96997 You can put my knowledge of abalone in a bowl of a dollar's worth of shark's fin soup. Or should I say a thimble? I assume that most of what I've eaten has been fresh California red abalone. In most cases, they have been in Chinese preparations along with other seafood and/or vegetables, perhaps not the best way to sample the fish. I've sampled shark's fin soup primarily at the end of banquets/weddings, and have been completely unimpressed (not like the abalone, which I find to be fine, but unexceptional). I'm eating this without any of the cultural/symbolic "baggage" associated with it, of course. And I'm wondering how many times I've been eating genuine shark's fin soup (that's the main reason I asked about these "mid-priced" offerings on ala carte menus) -- I'm rather confident I haven't ever been served a bowl of s.f.s. equivalent to what you sampled at your company dinner. Thu Jun 26 02:25:50 -0700 2003 96926 0 Dave Feldman 8 97019 A few chowhounds went to Jai Yun last night. The chef is now offering a $100 per head meal. The waitress did not speak much English, so we didn't find out what he offers for that price. The $50 meal included lobster. Thu Jun 26 13:11:03 -0700 2003 96921 0 anti-foodie 7 96923 My fantasy is to try a man3 han4 quan2 xi1 (Manchu/Han complete banquet) someday. *major grin* Wed Jun 25 02:00:43 -0700 2003 96857 0 Limster 4 96773 I ate at the Slanted Door for the first time recently. The shaking beef, pho bo, asparagus with chanterelles, and Slanted Door spring rolls (which are not of the fried type) were average-plus, but not particularly good. My dining companion noted that the Mission district location was better and that plans were underway to create another Slanted Door somewhere else in SF (even after the relocation back to the Mission). The wine list was very good, though. I think Nick's schedule is fine for some diners, although I can't address his particular considerations. For example, he appears not to have scheduled in lunches at similar venues. That should provide a bit of a breather. Mon Jun 23 09:32:55 -0700 2003 96726 0 cabrales 5 96774 As has been reported elsewhere, Slanted Door will be vacating the 100 Brannan Street location sometime before the end of 2003 when they will move to an 8,000 sq. ft. space in the Ferry Building. The Mission location will become the venue for a new venture rumored to be a restaurant based on small-plates (Vietnamese tapas). Mon Jun 23 09:38:20 -0700 2003 96773 0 Paul H 5 96930 I'm not a big fan of the food at Slanted Door, but I do think the crispy deep-fried imperial rolls (cha gio) are very good. Too bad you didn't get those instead. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/20379#70572 Image: http://lws-images.amazon.com/images/L/B000063ACS.01.TFCV.LZZZZZZZ.jpg Wed Jun 25 03:53:58 -0700 2003 96773 0 Melanie Wong 1 96709 The meal unfolded wonderfully. A dining room team member indicated the kitchen was interested in cooking for me; I nodded in earnest that that would be perfect :) “I invite you to compose a menu guided by your personal taste and appetite. I have designed these dishes to complement each other in any combination you choose”. The above quote from Chef Gras is set forth at the beginning of the menu. In hindsight, I would have chosen many of the dishes brought forth by the kitchen. As I settled in, my glass of Ruinart Rose arrived. A medium, mature pink that matched my mood that evening perfectly. Given my fetish for Ruinarts, it was literally a perfect start for the evening. (1) CEVICHE -Sea bass, Geoduck clam, Kumamoto oyster, and Oscetra caviar with lime and olive oil- Champagne Ruinart Rosé Brut, Reims This dish was absolutely stunning by US standards (it would have been very good by France standards too). Small carpaccio-like sections of sea bass that were thicker than typical carpaccio and that therefore transmitted the taste of the fish as well as the translucence and delicacy of the texture. Small pieces, but full of flavor. Interesting that oyster taste went beyond the Kumamoto perched on top of the carpaccio’ed area. I was correct in guess that the clear liquid saucing for the sea bass was simply the liquor (inside jus) of the oyster. How enchanting, and how tasty. (I liked this more “natural” use of the oyster jus, as well as more manipulated versions such as the gelee of that jus utilized by Marc Meneau, Alain Dutournier, Guy Savoy and J-M Loraine in their oyster dishes). There was a bit of lime zest, but it was appropriately barely noticeable. A pink sea salt that was likely Hawaiian was utilized appropriately. On top of the bass was a kumamoto oyster, and on top of that little curled ridged sections of geoduck that reminded me of how glorious the other geoduck dish I have taken in at Fifth Floor was. Slightly sweet, crunchy, distinctive. Offset against the controlled saltiness and ocean sensations communicated by the oscetra that was on top of the curls of geoduck. I reveled in the sampling of this dish – Bravo. I continued with the glass of Ruinart Rose for this dish. :) Belinda Chang, the sommelier, advised me that Laurent Gras is very enthusiastic (with reason) about geoduck, conch and similar products. At Fifth Floor, these products are displayed using a high level of cooking skill. (2) CONCH -Sautéed meuniere, brown butter vinaigrette- Bouchard Corton-Charlemagne Grand Cru 2000 (Demi) Another gorgeous, evocative dish. Sections of conch, about the length of 1/2 a pinkie, were sauteed in a butter-based sauce. The conch was elastic, “crisp” (in texture, as in appropriately rigid) and very expertly and beautifully cut. Its intrinsic color was very appealing was well, with certain portions being a whitish color and progressing to take on a purplish/blackish tone. A dish with visual appeal, but that is not tasty, is worthless, but a glorious-tasting dish gets bonus points from me for a sensual visual presentation. I find Fifth Floor’s cuisine to be balanced and seductive in taste. This conch dish rocked! Interestingly, Esplette peppers had been utilized in the dish, but their role was appropriately difficult to detect. More noticeable were the small quasi-dried garlic chips, which resembled to a significant extent small flower petals and were absolutely beautiful. The garlic chips tasted not of garlic, but conveyed more a slight bit of bitterness that added just the right amount of interest to the dish and that suppressed the butteriness of the saucing a small bit. The butter-based saucing was wonderful. I liked in particular that, at the end of the tasting, one had a soy-sauce-like or other umami-type sensation in the mouth. I asked Ms Chang whether soy sauce had been utilized, and she indicated that concentrated chicken stock had been utilized instead. Chef Gras apparently likes to use chicken stock, which reappeared, I believe, in the ensuing lobster dish (saucing). This dish went very well with the 1/2 bottle of Corton Charlemagne, Bouchard, ordered. I had considered ordering a 1/2 bottle of Krug Grand Cuvee instead, but in hindsight the Corton Charlemagne was better for this key dish. (3) MAINE LOBSTER -Braised with morels and asparagus- The summer menu has a subsection entitled morels and asparagus, with two dishes, one of which was lobster and foie gras braised with morels and asparagus. Whether it was because I am a minimalist in cuisine preferences or because the next dish featured foie gras, foie had been appropriately removed from this dish as it was presented to me. Like in Gras’ signature lobster cappuccino dish, the lobster here was cooked perfectly – i.e., significantly underdone, such that the flesh was supple. Small Maine lobsters had been utilized, and their flavor was appealing. The braised morels and four asparagus spears (just the end portion) were an appropriate combination with a likely chicken-stock (or perhaps veal stock)-based saucing, and it was that combination that worked with the lobster. A light nage of lobster, containing cream, was added to the dish at the table. Its off-white color swirled into the light brown-colored saucing already incorporated into the dish. (4) FOIE GRAS "CHAUD-FROID" -Roasted with bee pollen and cured with Buddha's hand and Hawaiian salt- Kracher, Smith & Robles "Cuvée Miaud" Trockenbeerenauslese, Neusiedlersee, Austria 2000 This foie gras composition was delicious as well. A nice presentation that might have been intended to depict a flower, with the cold preparation (cured with the citrus fruit Buddah’s hand) forming a oval tulip-like shape, the line of powdered Meyer lemon that linked that and the “base”, and the “base” of a large, thick, juicy piece of sauteed foie with the bee pollen (towards the RHS of the dish). First, the cold preparation. It was a clean-tasting slice of oval-shaped, almost terrine-like cold foie that lay beneath a similarly shaped, but slightly larger flat “dome” of lemon and other citrus gelee. On the nose, the gelee had chicken or veal stock sensations, but its taste was essentially that of acidity. For my tastes, there was too much of the gelee relative to the foie, but that was easily rectified by not using more than 2/3 of the gelee. Below the foie was a slice of crunchy Daikon radish that had been added to the dish relatively recently, according to the dining room team. The acidity of the gelee was tempered by combining it with the powder of caramelized Meyer lemon adjacent to it on the plate. The lemon powder was rather sweet, appropriately. The “hot” preparation was sauteed foie that had a nice crust. Chef Gras likes to work with the exterior of foie, I suspect, leaving the interior to be supple and appropriately undercooked :) (Last time, he had utilized the persistence of licorice). This time, the bee pollen provided a somewhat sweet coating/crust. Very appealingly, a jus based on duck stock – slightly fatty, dark, yet with some acidity – and a citrus (likely orange) was poured onto the sauteed foie at the table. This saucing was outstanding to sample in itself, almost conveying the flavors of a separate dish (and perhaps playing on the classical French dish of Canard a l’Orange and/or the Chinese dish of Chen Pi, preserved citrus peel, Duck). Perhaps the citrus was Buddha’s hand, like in the cold composition (??). I liked the saucing for the foie very much, particularly as duck stock is less frequently combined with foie. (4) RABBIT COMPOSITION -Braised with glass noodles, sautéed with Meyer lemon and olives Domaine Dujac Gevrey-Chambertin "Combettes," Burgundy 1993 (Demi) This was the most intellectually engaging dish of the evening, and delicious as well (although not as amazing as the sea bass ceviche and the conch). A long white plate is brought to the table, with four compositions utilizing rabbit. From the left, they were (1) cooked abalone mushroom with a raw slice of abalone mushroom and a quail egg, (2) loin of rabbit with spinach, (3) leg of rabbit with Nicoise olives, and (4) rack of rabbit with Meyer lemon. Then, a separate bowl was brought forth with confit of rabbit shoulder and glass noodles (an ingredient from Asian cuisine). The dish took me some time to enjoy, and it pleased my mind as much as my palate. The cooked portion of the abalone mushroom was huge – about 2/3 of the size of my clenched hand and about as thick. It was from a single mushroom, and it resembled abalone not only in texture, as discussed below, but also in color and visual appearance. The texture of this vegetable was amazingly similar to certain types of non-dried abalone – elasticky, dense. On top of the large cooked abalone mushroom was a thin slice of raw abalone mushroom, which had been marinated or otherwise processed in lemon. The quail’s egg was a nice touch, particularly for me given my fascination with egg products and small birdies. When I tasted this delicious mushroom for the first time, I could not tell why the chef had included it in his rabbit composition. One bite of the next item of the four on the principal plate (going from LHS to RHS), however, immediately revealed the answer, which could not have been more appropriate and more pleasing. The abalone mushroom is a vegetable that tastes like a certain seafood item. However, that also resembled the *skin* of rabbit (with fur removed previously, of course), which was featured in the next composition on the plate (as well as, to a less noticeable extent, in the third composition thereon). The animal skin tasted very comparable in texture and taste to the abalone mushroom, which was a vegetable that tasted like a seafood item. What a wonderful way to comment upon the similarities inherent in certain food products that straddle the typical food category divides. How thoughtful for a chef to have noticed this unusual comparison. I never knew abalone mushroom existed, and I had never tasted rabbit skin before. The skin of rabbit was not fatty, more somewhat elasticky. How fascinating... and educational... and success, even though certain risks had been taken with respect to the dish. Returning to the second composition of the four on the principal plate, the rabbit skin was used like the pasta in a canneloni dish to wrap the loin and spinach. The skin was not crispy by any means, it seemed to have been cooked, but in a quasi-natural state. The skin had been removed form the flesh fo the rabbit. In certain “folds” of the rabbit skin wrapping, there was a pimento-based mixture which added heat. An interesting composition. But it was the rabbit skin that was fascinating. An additional potential intellectual aspect to this dish is the wrapping of the rabbit flesh in its own skin, coupled with a bit of green to mimic what the rabbit might have eaten during its life. Even the pimento could be viewed as being symbolic of the blood that used to coarse through the animal’s veins. But that interpretation might be taking the dish beyond what the chef intended :) Anyhow, the third composition also had skin attached to the leg, which was paired with Nicoise olives. For me, this was the last attractive aspect of the rabbit composition, but I have a subjective dislike for olives generally. The fourth composition on the plate was delicious. Rack of rabbit, with perhaps six to eight tiny protruding bones that were very small and suggested a small animal (even as rabbits go). Luscious, delicious, supple. I really enjoyed the flesh around the rabbit bones and the feel of the bones in my mouth. (I ate all of this with the use of utensils, including the sauce spoon, as I am a firm believer of not using one’s hands to pick up things in haute cuisine restaurants). A delicate dish, accompanied by a fairly robust Meyer lemon sauce that had the right balance between sweetness and acidity (almost a glaze). Then, in a separate bowl, another rabbit item – the shoulder, confit. Appropriately, the confit was not a strandy-type of confit. The texture of the rabbit texture tasted as it should, of itself. The most fascinating aspect of this dish was the use of a strong vinegar-based acidity (in a medium consistency sauce) to envelop the glass noodles that had been integrated into the rabbit shoulder composition. This is interesting because (1) ones does not normally associate such strong acidity with a confit, nor with rabbit, (2) in certain Asian dishes, glass or cellophane noodles are accompanied by a usually thinner-consistency sauce that has acidity (e.g., certain Thai preparations). The cellophane noodles used by Chef Gras had some substance, and offered a delivery vehicle for the vinegar saucing, which was the theme of the rabbit shoulder confit portion of the dish. The Dujac was drinking wonderfully – Gevrey Chambertin, I like a lot. I do not recall having sampled a Dujac Gevrey Chambertin before. Interestingly, the Gevrey-Chambertin was appropriate in particularly for the shoulder preparation with vinegar. Absent that preparation, one could imagine utilizing certain white Burgundies with the rabbit dish (e.g., Bienvenue Batard Montrachets), particularly on the abalone mushroom portion of the dish. (5) NIMAN RANCH PORK BELLY -Poached slowly with black truffles and roasted crispy on the skin, truffle jus- This is Chef Gras’ signature dish, which I had sampled in a significantly simplified form at the James Beard dinner featuring the chef earlier this year. I was eager to sample the dish itself, and fortunately it was served to me :) Two cross-section-type pieces of pork belly, showing a significant amount of fat, but also meat and crunchy portions, were presented. They were appropriate tasting, but contained too much pepper for my subjective preferences. I had had a similar assessment of the J Beard version of this dish, in which Sarawak pepper had been utilized. The truffle jus accompanying the pork belly was appropriate, and I did not mind that, it not being black truffle season, the diced black truffles generously included in the saucing were not particularly aromatic. I almost deemed it better this way, as the truffle jus did not overwhelm the ability to sample the pork belly. Unlike at J Beard, the full dish included two discs of potatoes – one smaller and the other larger, together with a nice bit of pear (refreshing) and a spear of cooked white asparagus. The asparagus looked overcooked, but it was not. These items, together with the fattiness inherent in the pork belly, were intended, I suspect, to mitigate the pepper used in the dish. While I deemed the pepper to have been overutilized, I still liked this dish and consider it among the better pork belly dishes I have had in the US (the version sampled at Fifth floor). (6) INTERMEZZO -Strauss Family Yogurt Sorbet with Strawberry-Rhubarb Soup- I liked this, although it was not particularly special. However, I tend to like berry and cherry-based dessert, and this was nice. The strawberry was a nice manipulated texture, I vaguely recall. (7) BING CHERRIES WITH ALMOND CREME The cherries were luscious-tasting and luscious-looking. They had been halved, a little bit of morello gelee had been utilized (almost not detectable in the dish) and a hibiscus essence had been utilized. The almond creme had a nice texture, and had a bit of a nougatine effect with crunchy bits of that material and/or of nuts. Overall – A beautiful, outstanding meal with service that matched the level of the cuisine :) I remain eager to continue to explore the cuisine at Fifth Floor. Sat Jun 21 17:39:57 -0700 2003 96635 0 cabrales 1 96868 Do they offer a flight of wines matched to the multicourse meals? And how are their wine prices anyway? Tue Jun 24 12:47:38 -0700 2003 96635 0 Tom Hall 2 96883 Since I have no meaningful knowledge about wine, I note only that wines by the glass are available, and presumably available to be matched with various courses. There is no pre-specified price for a matched flight of wines, like there might be at Fleur de Lys. The wines by the glass are now available to be ordered in 1/2 glasses, for 1/2 the price. The restaurant has offered an interesting champagne by the glass each of the two times I have visited. There is a BYO possibility, with corkage being possibly $30-$35 (please verify prior to reliance). Tue Jun 24 16:45:11 -0700 2003 96868 0 cabrales