240629 Thu Jul 10 17:13:59 -0700 2003 47 19 Outer Boroughs 0 1276759 I was reading the thread about the new Indian place coming on 7th and was struck, once again, by the arrogance of Park Slopers (and I have lived here 22 years). We truly want the mountain to come to Mohammed. Of course we are all hoping a "great" Indian restaurant will open close by. I, for one, am glad we now have a choice of Indian eateries where a mere two years ago we had only one, and the less said about it the better! However, I see no reason why a superior Indian restaurant should open here where so few Indians live or work. It's not that we Slopers aren't discerning; it's demographics. With a largely Indian clientele, the kitchen would work overtime to please, and competition among restaurants would be intense. For that, you will have to seek out Indian enclaves. The same can be said about Russian, or Polish, or Turkish, or Chinese cuisines. Be thankful for the good French, Japanese, Italian and "continental" resraurants we do have. They are doing well because they are catering to the demographics of the Slope, which (if I may generalize) is white, young, often with children in tow, and with money to burn. But if you want great ethnic eats, it's silly to sit on the stoop of your brownstone bewailing the absence of great curry, or goulash, or pad thai. To paraphrase Paladin, "have stomach, will travel." Thu Jul 10 17:13:59 -0700 2003 0 Walnetto 1 1276760 I totally agree. It's one thing to continually re-visit and re-evaluate the merits and offerings of your local restaurants, but to be a 'hound is to put your nose to the ground, pound the pavement, and sniff around for where the good stuff really is. I understand those tough evenings when you want above-average takeout from the area, or an elegant neigborhood spot to show off to visitors, but I would point out that Slope already has those spots -- for take-out, Brawta, Chip Shop, Coco Roco, Los Pollitos, and for elegance -- Blue Ribbon, al di la, Convivium, Bistro Saint Marks, etc. But it's silly to expect that the BEST Indian, Pakistani, Chinese, Russian, Brazilian, Greek, Turkish, Ethiopian, Ecuadorian, or Korean restaurants would open in a neighborhood like the Slope. The Slope doesn't represent the demographics that these establishments want to serve. The hunt is part of the fun. That means hopping on the 7 or G or Q trains. The best of these restaurants are found in their own communities. Visiting them means venturing into many of the distinct communities in to this great city and appreciating what the neighborhood has to offer as a whole. And that diversity, my friends, is why New York City is the greatest city in the world. Food is just part of this unparalleled urban experience. Thu Jul 10 17:33:55 -0700 2003 1276759 0 at203 2 1276779 Why is it "silly" to expect quality ethnic chow in a non ethnic neighborhood? Times are changing are New Yorkers are become more and more savy about ethnic cuisine. Look at Efendi in midtown. Quality authentic Turkish food served to non-Turks. The owner has been wildy succesful and is thinking about expanding to Brooklyn. In the end only the good restaurants will prosper. Fri Jul 11 10:14:54 -0700 2003 1276760 0 josh L 3 1276784 Efendi's not that great though, so there goes your theory. Fri Jul 11 10:49:56 -0700 2003 1276779 0 Peter Cuce 4 1276785 The notion that we should be thankful or appreciative that there are lousy Indian food choices is the part of this thread that I am fascinated by. As far as his theory goes, Its pretty strongly supported. Good food sells amongst those who know what good food is. There is no reason why this should be any different in Park Slope. Fri Jul 11 10:56:51 -0700 2003 1276784 0 GreatFoodOnly 4 1276787 Efendi is actually quite good for the doner kebabs and simple plate lunches and I know I would be very happy if there was a place like Efendi in the Slope. I must say that I expect a little more from you Peter. I'm sorry you don't like Efendi but you have a tendency to discount others peoples opinions with providing any discussion or explanation. Fri Jul 11 11:00:43 -0700 2003 1276784 0 josh L 3 1276786 Look at the original poster's point -- there are mediocre restaurants because the restauranteurs are not being pushed to produce a better product by heated competition. And your point about "In the end only the good restaurants will prosper" is just not true -- as an example, Sotto Voce is terrible, and yet ALWAYS packed. This place does very well -- because no one is demanding any better. If owners can cut corners, often times they will because it can improve their bottom line -- and that's WHY most people open restaurants: to make money, not to display their culinary prowess. I agree that tastes are becoming more sophisticated, but mediocre restaurants will always survive because there are plenty of undiscerning people out there who just don't want to think too hard about the quality of their vindaloo. The whole point of my original post was that we should embrace that there are so many gems out there in our city--and get out there and find them. These gems may not be at the doorstep of the Slope -- but that's not the point. They are here in our city, and accessible to all of us by subway or bus. We don't have to get on an airplane to get great Indian food - we just have to get on the 7 train. That's a blessing that NYC Chowhounds should be thankful for. Fri Jul 11 10:59:46 -0700 2003 1276779 0 at203 4 1276788 Maybe its just wishful thinking but I really think Sotte Voce would even do better if they serrved decent chow. And in the end I just might be right. Only time will tell. Fri Jul 11 11:12:00 -0700 2003 1276786 0 josh L 5 1276834 When Sotto Voce first opened several years ago, the first couple meals I had there were actually really good. It's interesting that they've now gone so far downhill. Sat Jul 12 15:05:54 -0700 2003 1276788 0 Kerry 3 1276793 Its not silly, we can always hope, but you have to admit its rather unlikely. If we lived in a tiny town in the sticks, rather than Brooklyn and Sotto Voce or Amin were there, it might be worth our while to encourage them to learn something from their wives, mothers or brothers or buy a good cookbook, better ingredients even, and improve the quality of their cuisine. In Brooklyn or NYC generally there are thousands of restaurants focussed on the almighty $ - the business of feeding - and not the least concerned with producing delicious food - why should they be, when they get plenty of patronage with mediocrity? Why spend any time thinking about these folks (except to warn others off) when we can go out and find others who either (1) care deeply about their cuisine and producing an excellent product or (2) havent learned yet how to produce food differently than traditional teachers have taught them? Fri Jul 11 11:32:57 -0700 2003 1276779 0 jen kalb 1 1276761 I too am finding the downtown brooklyn laments dull. Where's the Chinese, Indian etc.?? The choices no good? no big surprise, any more than it would be in a white bread suburb, or the UWS/UES. On the other hand, Downtown Brooklyn folks can walk or ride a bit and get into interesting ethnic/food communities - the 5th/4th Ave hispanic stuff and slavic, Atlantic Ave for mideastern etc, still some Italian in Carroll Gardens. A bit farther for west indian, pakistani,vietnamese, russian etc. The best we can hope for with these suburban "service" restaurants that are popping up is that somebody in the kitchen knows what they are doing, and can be encouraged to do better. Figuring out whether that is a possibility is worth doing (maybe it is with Joy Indian, for example or Kar for Chinese) Otherwise, Id just say BLECH and move on to more interesting topics and food. Thu Jul 10 17:47:04 -0700 2003 1276759 0 jen kalb 1 1276762 ... add my vote for your sentiments! . I have been berated for saying a good word about the Star of India on 5th Avenue (well, berated by one chowhounder, who didn't like that I felt sad that, based on so few customers, it may go under) ... . give Star a try: the food is not terrific, but, as you expressed, it's a helluva lot better than no Indian or the dump that's been on 7th Avenue for years. Thu Jul 10 17:57:58 -0700 2003 1276759 0 Philip 1 1276766 How so very true... But there's even better than taking the Q,G, or F. One can take Air India, Aeroflot, or Air France and have the best ethnic experiences of them all..... Thu Jul 10 20:14:58 -0700 2003 1276759 0 Aidan 2 1276803 God I hope you don't mean on board!! I know you don't mean on board. You don't mean on board. Fri Jul 11 14:08:39 -0700 2003 1276766 0 Dipsy 3 1276860 Ha, good one. No, I didn't mean on board, although you'd be surprised. Last year I had to fly a very short distance, Lyons-Paris, and Air France served wine and cheese. I was impressed! Sun Jul 13 08:05:48 -0700 2003 1276803 0 Aidan 1 1276769 Well put!!! I moved to Brooklyn from Philadelphia five years ago and if people think the food is bad in Park Slope go live in another city (almost any city), and they'll come running back. There are, in my opinion, quite a few poor restaurants (that don't realize that they stink)-- but living in this area, the options are limitless and you don't have to stand for a subpar product. In other areas, often you do. . . Thu Jul 10 21:03:59 -0700 2003 1276759 0 KenOnDean 1 1276772 Bravo! I've been wanting to write something like this for a while now, but you've said it much more eloquently than I would have. Fri Jul 11 02:28:20 -0700 2003 1276759 0 Peter Cuce 1 1276778 While I am alway's willing to travel for the good stuff, I see no justification for opening up a mediocore restaurant. I think people in neighborhoods like Park Slope are hungry for the real thing and if someone opens a great authentic Indian place it would be successful. Who cares if Park Slope has four lousy Indian restaurants. It doesn't mean anything if the food is bad and the owners are only interested in milking the neighborhood. In my last post I provide grand sichuan as an example of how an authentic restaurant can do extremely well in this city serving non asians. Fri Jul 11 10:04:45 -0700 2003 1276759 0 josh L 2 1276790 Directly to this point: "I see no justification for opening up a mediocore restaurant." The justification is that opening a restaurant is a business venture. If you figure out that there is a bunch of money to be made serving up food that people continue to show up for, despite its lack of authenticity, then good for you. You're living the American dream. When my grandparents moved to Brooklyn in the late 60s, speaking very little English, what was the one business opportunity they found that they could start up while raising their family? Why, opening a Chinese take-out restaurant, of course. They were able to make money by doing something they knew how to do, that didn't require an expensive American education, and a lot of resources. My dad recalls the food being "Americanized-Chinese" -- lo mein and the like, but people showed up for it. So my grandparents found their footing, made some money, and bought an apartment. They still live there, at ages 89 and 93. Yes, it would have been opportune for them then, or anyone now, to be savvy to the burgeoning ethnic-food tastes in the wealthier neighborhoods. But they opened up a mediocre restaurant to make money, and it worked. Why would they or anyone else mess with that formula? Fri Jul 11 11:19:20 -0700 2003 1276778 0 at203 3 1276791 "Why would they or anyone else mess with that formula? " That's valid, but don't expect descerning eaters to appreciate it. I don't, nor will I stop expecting great food to open up in Park Slope, which is an expensive neighborhood. If people want to open up lousy places, by all means, so long as they know they aren't getting my business. If it works for them, so be it, but again, I am not going to stop my griping and just be happy that we have 4 lousy Indian restaurants. Remember the original poster used the term "arrogance", to describer Slopers who feel this way. Fri Jul 11 11:30:03 -0700 2003 1276790 0 GreatFoodOnly 4 1276832 If one shouldn't mess with the formula, there should be no restaurants except McDonalds, which is arguably the most successful restaurant of all time. Sat Jul 12 15:00:49 -0700 2003 1276791 0 Kerry 5 1276929 I wasn't saying that no one should mess with that formula. Many people do, and that's why we have some great restaurants. What I was saying is that an immigrant (or anyone, really) looking to make money probably wouldn't mess with the formula if he/she discovered that money could be made by serving an inferior product. There are some execptions to this -- people who really care about serving great product. But doing that is expensive, and lots of restauranteurs won't put out the effort simply because they don't have to. I'm sure running a restaurant is hard enough as it is. Mon Jul 14 16:56:44 -0700 2003 1276832 0 at203 6 1276954 I understand what you're saying, but I think it's possible to make great food that's still cheap. Look at all the wonderful things that can be made with cornmeal or with rice :-) Mon Jul 14 21:53:42 -0700 2003 1276929 0 Kerry 3 1276794 Better yet, if any Indian, Chinese, or Thai cook was enterprising enough and knew where the market was, why wouln't he come on over to the Slope and open up a good joint, like he had back in his old nabe? He could even hike up the prices because Slopers can afford it, unlike the people from Jackson Heights or the likes. Never understood why this has never happened. Why go to them, when they can come to us and make a fast buck? Fri Jul 11 11:33:15 -0700 2003 1276790 0 Aidan 4 1276795 Well, if one of those guys does figure out that there's money to be made in the Slope, don't be surprise if his new outpost isn't as good as the old. Because that guy will figure out he doesn't have to work as hard to put out an authentic product, because the general audience (SLOPE HOUNDS EXCLUDED, OF COURSE) won't be discerning enough to put the place out of business. I point to 7th Ave's long-lived long-discussed mediocrity as evidence of this. Fri Jul 11 12:04:36 -0700 2003 1276794 0 at203 3 1276797 The point is that was a different time and I believe in 2003 NYC people are stared to really demand serious authentic food that is made with good ingredients. Look at how popular the farmers mkt is or how busy the food coop is. People want good ingredients and they want better restaurants. I think a great Indian, Vietnamese, Turkish, Chinese would make a killing in the Slope. Fri Jul 11 12:13:00 -0700 2003 1276790 0 josh L 3 1276798 That's an incredibly cynical view. Some people do take real pride in their work, and truly want to deliver a superior product. Luckily we have capitalism, which allows an entrepreneur to come to Park Slope to do exactly that. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean some enterprising young business owner, who wants more out of life than to create mediocrity, won't do it. Fri Jul 11 12:43:33 -0700 2003 1276790 0 Jason W. 4 1276802 "That's an incredibly cynical view. Some people do take real pride in their work, and truly want to deliver a superior product. Luckily we have capitalism, which allows an entrepreneur to come to Park Slope to do exactly that. Just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean some enterprising young business owner, who wants more out of life than to create mediocrity, won't do it." --------------------------------------------------- Actually, it has happened. Bonnies does a great job. The owner is there virtually all the time and he clearly is a man on a mission. Wouldn't it be wonderful if they were joined by restaurants of similar quality in different categories. Fri Jul 11 13:32:55 -0700 2003 1276798 0 Bob Martinez 1 1276782 I think that is rediculous, like Josh L said, there is simply no excuse for opening a mediocre place, anywhere. Unbelievable. We are supposed to be self loathing Park Slopers and appreciate bad food? Not for the price of living in that neighborhood, absolutely not. Fri Jul 11 10:42:17 -0700 2003 1276759 0 GreatFoodOnly 1 1276807 I just think it's amazing that people actually think that every single restaurant is going to be a wonderfully orchesrtated, heavenly experience. Nothing in the world is like that and no where in the world is every single restaurant a work of art. A lot of places are opened by immigrants that may not have a lot of capital, so they may "cheat" a bit to save money. Good luck to them. If no one goes there, they go out of business. Enough said. If people do, then those people made a decision and they may even enjoy the place. Not all people are "foodies" and expect orgasms with every bite and chew. It's extremely snobbish to expect all eating establishments to live up to one's highest of expectations. If you don't like it, don't go. If you can do better, open up your own place. If the places stinks, go to one that's good. There are thousands of great places in this city, stop focusing on the thousands that are not good enough for your standards. This seems to come up a lot on this board. While this board is amazing and is such a resource and place for enjoyment, too many people love to trash every place that serves green beans and not haricot verts, or american cheese on their burger and not imported French roquefort. Sure these things are wonderful, but everywhere will not deal in such luxuries, which is in fact what these things are, luxuries - not basic necessities. I'm rambling and not sure if this made sense, oh well. Fri Jul 11 14:24:33 -0700 2003 1276759 0 billyblancoNYC 1 1276808 My post in the earlier thread was one of those about which the originator of this thread is "ranting." However, I think the above rant is more than a little off the mark. While it certainly seems a convenient target to take on Park Slopers and their perceived yuppie ways, I think that it's really quite beside the point I was trying to make. I fail to see how it is in any way "arrogant" to expect a restaurant in any neighborhood of any composition to at least try to serve decent food, and I find it mildly insulting that somehow my desire for quality is arrogance or whining because of where I live. As it would not be (if I take the poster's comments correctly) if I lived in, say, Queens, or Staten Island, or Michigan. (Or maybe it is the desire for quality itself that is somehow suspect and "arrogant"?) Now I am perfectly willing to go almost anywhere in search of good food. I've been all over Queeens, Brooklyn, etc. in search of a good morsel at a decent price. But I fail to see why that should or should not have any bearing on my wanting to see better restaurants in my neighborhood, and resenting those establishments that cynically serve bad food just because they think they can get away with it. I also believe, like Josh L, that these restauranteurs are being penny-wise and pound-foolish since Park Slope is indeed a neighborhood that can and almost certainly would support better, which was the point of my original post. I am not saying that I'm unwilling to go to Jackson Heights on occassion for good food, what I am saying is that if they brought that same quality, or something close to it, over here I think they would prosper. I fail to see how that is "arrogant" in any way. When I first lived in the South Slope 14 years ago it was quite a different place than it is today, and there were indeed no Indian restaurants nearby except the even-then-nasty place of which we will not speak. Now that I have moved back to the area I fail to see how it has been any great improvement in the neighborhood to have access to 4 lousy Indian restaurants instead of just one. Lousy is still lousy and adding more lousiness is NOT an improvement. Frankly, I'd much rather have a decent dry cleaner or grocery store, which would be a true improvement, than another bad restaurant. In fact, all I expect of ANY business is to try to put out a good product for my hard-earned money (and, contrary to the original poster's generalization, I do not have a lot of extra cash floating around to spend). I'm a small businessman myself, and constantly strive to put out a quality product -- it is simply a matter of self-respect, respect for my profession, and respect for my customers. Sure I'm contantly battling against competitors who take short-cuts and undercut our prices. But in the end, while they may beat me out of some jobs, they put out a lousy product and don't get nearly the amount of return business I do. As someone who trys his best to make his own product better, I truly resent it when I'm presented with slop and told it is gold as if I'm not supposed to care or know any better. It doesn't matter what neighborhood I'm in, it still sucks. The fact that it's MY neighborhood makes it even worse, because that's the place where I necessarily spend much of my time and money. There are restaurants in our area of varying ethnic cuisines that at least try to put out a decent product, and those are the ones I will go back to. This includes none of the Indian restaurants, and while I always hold out hope, I really don't expect the new joint on 7th to be any better. This is not "arrogance" of the privileged, it is taste and a desire for quality which knows no race or economic or social status. And I see nothing at all wrong this desire manifesting itself as a hope that the place where I live should experience true improvement and not a descent into ever-pricier mediocrity. Fri Jul 11 14:32:50 -0700 2003 1276759 0 Detroit - NYC Al 2 1276809 Great post Al. You took the words right out of my mouth. Fri Jul 11 14:37:41 -0700 2003 1276808 0 josh L 3 1276831 great post, ditto :-) I just want good food everywhere! (Cafe Mexicano (4th Ave. & Union) is an example of cheap and good food in Park Slope...I really dig the jamaica punch, the Mexican hot chocolate, and the tamales.) Sat Jul 12 14:56:27 -0700 2003 1276809 0 Kerry 4 1276833 There is a large immigrant Mexican population in Park Slope, although maybe you wouldn't know it unless you lived in my part of the nabe (15th St & 5th Ave). Sat Jul 12 15:03:39 -0700 2003 1276831 0 Peter Cuce 5 1276835 Have you been to that little Mexican place at 19th St. and 5th Ave.? If so, what do you think of it? I think it's called El Rincon... Sat Jul 12 15:13:14 -0700 2003 1276833 0 Kerry 6 1276836 I've had some tacos there and was not impressed, don't remember the specifics, although maybe I can dig up my notes. Also stay far away from Fortuna, I think it's called, on 5th around Prospect or 17th. A friend and I shared a bunch of really dry tacos there. Another, more egregious violator of good taste, 5 de Mayo, on the same side of 5th as El Rincon, had really poor food, so I was unsurprised to see that it had become a record store on my most recent walk that way. Sat Jul 12 15:21:43 -0700 2003 1276835 0 Peter Cuce 7 1276839 Thanks for the warnings :-) Sat Jul 12 16:36:56 -0700 2003 1276836 0 Kerry 2 1276810 I take it you think Joy on Flatbush is lousy Indian? I think the place is pretty good and the owners really do care. Fri Jul 11 14:47:37 -0700 2003 1276808 0 bob 3 1276811 I must admit to never having been there, as it's way on the other side of the neighborhood from my house. I've heard mixed reports, but I do look forward to giving them a try when I'm up that way sometime soon. Fri Jul 11 14:57:41 -0700 2003 1276810 0 Detroit-NYC Al 2 1276812 Al, you are my new hero. What a great post. I think the original argument was based on a false assumption - that if you complain about the absence of quality restaurants in your neighborhood you are somehow ignoring the great restaurants in other parts of the city. In fact it the very existence of these good restaurants that makes us want them closer to us because we see their existence as proof that good places can thrive. Every time I go to a Malagueta or the late lamented Spicy and Tasty it makes me want something like that in my neighborhood. The fact that I have to drive 30 minutes to reach them is not an advantage. I deal with it because I have to. Is it wrong to want things to improve? Fri Jul 11 15:12:03 -0700 2003 1276808 0 Bob Martinez 2 1276821 bravo. well written. i agree. Fri Jul 11 20:23:46 -0700 2003 1276808 0 sista 2 1276949 Just to set the record straight, my rant was not in response to your post at all, but to someone else's who I felt had crossed the line from constructive criticism to petulant bellyaching. Mon Jul 14 21:12:12 -0700 2003 1276808 0 Walnetto 3 1276977 Well even average restaurants operated by scoundrels needs someone to defend them I guess... Tue Jul 15 10:08:36 -0700 2003 1276949 0 Motley 1 1276823 "privileged","above-average","discerning"; not! You want alot for your "hard-earned money". I've seen Park Slope become, for the most part, a middle class bedroom community. Seventh Ave is what it is for a reason. How many fine eateries will have to "re-think their format"? Remember DeVine? You want "authentic"? As a previous poster suggested, buy an airline ticket ... and realize that the pet you've emotionally bonded with serves nicely as an entry for a family in the greater part of this world. I'm sure that the "ambiance" will ease the passage. A young, "adventurous eater" posted on natto a while back; please search and review the comments. Foreign is foreign; establishments can not risk their business on vicissitudes ... especially in this commercial rental market. An out-of towner recently posted a query regarding the nuances of regional Chinese cuisine and the chances of sampling them in town ... check the responses. Let's get specific: Alma has basically been written off as a place with a great roof-top view and decent drinks. I tried their "special" cuitlacoche soup and was blown off my hinges. What their "Mexican bouillabaise" lacked in depth was more than compensated for in seafood ... the antithesis of Cocette (maybe some epazote or hoja santa would kick it). Do you think these dishes "moved"? I've seen a number of service related complaints about Alioli in Bburg; I guess its just not the right format. The "pink eel" special I had was just that. Regarding the great void in the middle, I recently enjoyed a morel and spring pea appetizer at RoseWater. Or is this "high-end"? Don't expect the world to be dropped at your doorstep like the NY Times. Fri Jul 11 22:29:01 -0700 2003 1276759 0 TwoDimesAndANickel 1 1276824 As a resident of the - according to these posts - more ethnically diverse and not-so-pricey Jackson Heights, I can say that storefront authentic is not always a guarantee of better food and may not be what you're looking for. If the ethnic clientele includes patrons who have enough money to pay for specialties of the region, then they will often be very tasty in 'ethnic' neighborhoods. However, if the clients come from the lower end of the economic ladder, the food served in restaurants for locals may just be the low-end fare that is affordable to those on a tight budget. While this can be tasty, it often precludes many famous specialties. Take Mexican restaurants as a case in point. Here, we have many Mexicans and many taquerías. We can get good tacos, but other specialties, such as mole poblano, the signature dish of Puebla (from whence come the vast majority of Mexicans in New York) are woefully sub par. And since I have had the same diluted guacamole in cheap eateries in Mexico as I can get many places here in Queens, I know it's 'authentic.' The Colombian food here, where the Colombian community is more economically diverse, may be a better representation of Colombia. Any comments on this phenomenon? By the way, if Tasty and Spicy in Flushing was so great, and was located near a northern Chinese neighborhood, why did it close? Does anyone know? Sat Jul 12 01:04:27 -0700 2003 1276759 0 JH Jill 2 1276829 They did a very good business and were favorably reviewed in the Times, Newsweek, and by knowledgeable posters on these boards. Sometimes places lose their lease, owners may move on to other ventures or locations, or any number of other things may happen. I ate at Szechuan Gourmet a few blocks away last week. Unlike Spicy and Tasty, the food was uneven - some good dishes, some just mediocre. I get the feeling that its possible to eat well at SG but the menu is a minefield. If I have the energy I'll write it up. Sat Jul 12 12:44:45 -0700 2003 1276824 0 Bob Martinez 2 1276840 It is not necessarily the height of the step on the economic ladder but also can be the height of the expectations that can result in a sizable immigrant population from a locale does not necessarily translate into lots of deliciousness. It is a complex issue with specific variations based on particular groups of people, situations and dynamics. A beginning of understanding of these contexts triggers me to jump on the chow bandwagon with Jim Leff's approach of fully appreciating and honoring those individuals who do succeed in serving up deliciousness. Now I will (to quote that great fictious Queens resident, Archie Bunker) stifle myself before I show great gaps in what I know. While the intial poster wins my heart with the Paladin quote (I do have every episode that TimeLife sells, several hundred) and I too recoil from the oft heard complaints of those who wish that their dream or desired food was available in their own neighborhood I try to avoid being so political or philosophical about it all. I hope that we can continue to identify and share info about what seems especially good to eat. Those places within my economic and geographic boundaries I visit regularly. Then, I sometimes gather up whatever reserve of time and/or $$$ I can set aside for this purpose: trundle like a tourist over to places that have caused others to wax like a brochure. I.E., visit the gems that others have shared via this web site. cheers. wray Sat Jul 12 18:22:41 -0700 2003 1276824 0 wrayb 2 1277025 I wish I had a good Columbian recommendation or could chime in for why the "Tasty and Spicy"s of our communities are gone. Perhaps we don't really even "know" our neighbors. Perhaps they were consumed by some rubric. Link: http://www.food-insects.com/book7_31/Chapter%2003%20MEXICO.htm Tue Jul 15 22:49:01 -0700 2003 1276824 0 TwoDimesAndANickel