23976 Fri May 02 11:37:00 -0700 2003 41 1 San Francisco Bay Area 0 92451 I am very interested to know what other dishes are good there. Never been there before but tried Kan Pong chicken here at a tiny place in Hayward and it was wonderful. Spicy and sweet. Thanks Fri May 02 11:37:00 -0700 2003 0 Han Lukito 1 92452 They're famous for their dry fried chicken and dry fried shrimp, the green beans and the dumplings. Fri May 02 11:45:54 -0700 2003 92451 0 Tiffany 1 92455 If you mean the one on Irving in SF their noodle sooups are great. I particularly love the one with pork and pickled mustard greens. Fri May 02 12:34:37 -0700 2003 92451 0 Denise B 2 92457 Me too - the pork and mustard greens soup is one of my favorite things there. Also, I don't know how traditional/non-traditional their steamed dumplings/potstickers are, but I always enjoy them. The filling is very flavorful with wonderful delicate seasonings. (I get so nervous commenting on this because of the experts we have in Asian food on this board -- all I know is I like them!) Fri May 02 12:51:37 -0700 2003 92455 0 jen maiser 3 92475 I've always enjoyed the food at San Tung. Dried fried chicken, noodle soup and tons of dumplings. mmmmm. The only problem is that we always order the same thing! I'm not an expert on chinese food (and there are many experts on this board) but I do like the place Fri May 02 15:49:57 -0700 2003 92457 0 ageusiatic 4 92507 If you would be kind enough to start the ball rolling I am sure that if you built a meal they will come. I would be happy to go again. We all can learn something new. If I know Derek he is ready. Sat May 03 00:08:40 -0700 2003 92475 0 Yimster 5 92524 Totally ready...willing and......hungry! Sat May 03 04:53:44 -0700 2003 92507 0 derek 1 92485 I've not been to San Tung so I don't know what's good there particularly, so I'll comment in general on the dishes. As some have mentioned, the most popular dishes at Korean-Chinese restaurants are the hand-pulled noodle dishes. Hand-pulled noodle is said to be an invention of Shangdongese, who are the vast majority of the owners of these Korean-Chinese places. Chao Ma Mian (Hot-Spicy Seafood noodle soup) - This is very popular. Seafood usually consists of Shrimp, Squid, and either Scallop or Sea Cucumber. The spicy broth is out of this world. This is my favorite noodle with soup dish. Zha Jiang Mian (Black Bean Sauce noodle) - This is another favorite. Small cubes of pork, shrimp, onions and Chinese squash stir fried with the sweet black sauce, and you mix this into your noodle. This is my favorite noodle (dry) dish. The noodle soup with pork & mustard green I believe is probably "Da Lu Mian". This is a non-spicy noodle soup which has great tasting broth along with slices of pork and veggies. For non-noodle dishes, here are some that are popular. But depending on the restaurant, they make not make every one of these very well. Gan Pong (Dry Sauteed) Chicken/Shrimp - like you mentioned, spicy and sweet. If you see liquid in the plate - not good. You can usually get either boned chicken (wings) or boneless breaded chicken. Tang Cu (Sweet & Sour) Pork/Chicken/Beef - This is Shandong version of the Sweet & Sour dish. But the sauce is very different than the Americanized version, a must try. La Jiao (Chili Pepper) Pork/Chicken/Beef - This is my favorite dish. Hard to describe the sauce used in this because it is so unique, but it's got a little kick. Both this and the above dish's meat are breaded. Quan Jia Fu (Happy Family) - I don't order this too often, but if there's a large enough table, this is a common choice. Liu San Si (??) - This dish is stirred fried in a light sauce with everything julienned - woodear mushrooms, bamboo, Chinese cabbage pork, shrimp, scallop, etc. On the cold plate side, the most popular is the Jellyfish plate. It usually comes in a large plate with Jellyfish in the middle, surrounded by separate portions of julienned pork, woodear mushrooms, cabbage, egg, etc. And it is to be mixed together with the accompanied hot Mustard sauce mixture. As for Shui Jiao (Water Boiiled Dumplings) - I usually never order these at the restaurants because they're usually frozen. What that does is ruin the skin - and to me, skin is 50% of the dumling! However, I've found a very good version, which I'll post about separately next time. :) -t Fri May 02 19:43:55 -0700 2003 92451 0 tanspace 2 92486 Very, very interesting. Another good chowdown candidate ???? What other restaurants have good versions of this cuisine ? After having the Gan Dong (Kan Pong) chicken, I am TOTALLY into this cuisine. I have never seen anyone NOT getting hooked after tasting it once. It's so good. Fri May 02 19:51:43 -0700 2003 92485 0 Han Lukito 3 92494 Having just had the Dry Fried Chicken (dry no sauce) and chinese brocolli in garlic sauce, I am definitely ready to go back with a group to discover some of the delights mentioned by Tanspace...Korean-Chinese...who knew? and I thought I was eating "Chinese KimChee". (it really wasn't as incendiary as Korean!) Fri May 02 20:41:11 -0700 2003 92486 0 derek 4 92497 Here's a link to a discussion we had a year ago about many of them in the South Bay when we first got to know "tanspace". Sadly I've only gotten to one on his list of recs so far, Tong Soon. It was a good one though! Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/18981#62057 Fri May 02 21:18:31 -0700 2003 92494 0 Melanie Wong 5 92826 all this talk about Korean Chinese... still haven't made it to San Tung in Richmond SF, though, I heard they have a sister restaurant on 5-7 ave off Clement which has recently closed. Apparently, the place near Clement havs nearly identical menus as San Tung on Irving (right, Irving?). Too bad they closed -- I never had a chance to try them. Tue May 06 18:23:15 -0700 2003 92497 0 god of cookery 6 92839 With all those replies and linked threads, i imagine it got confusing and you missed the one linked below. A new "snack" San Tung is in the works. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/23353#88652 Tue May 06 20:05:10 -0700 2003 92826 0 Melanie Wong 7 92843 hi melanie, Yeah, the threads and links are daunting -- I feel like reading through every thread and cross-reference is a full time job! the place that closed wasn't called San Tung and not on Irving. The place I was referring to is/was off Clement -- I wish I remembered what it was called! It is definitely on 5-6th Ave near the corner at Clement. It had a wall of windows and most of the awning was in korean. I never saw many people in there and I was down there Sunday and the windows were papered over. btw, Sichuan Spice or Spice Girls is opening up #2 which will be twice as big as the #1, then #1 will stay open later. He says he is also planning on opening Spice Boy Cafe which will specialize in boba milk tea and emulate the taiwanese phenomena of "boba culture." cool eh? Tue May 06 20:26:24 -0700 2003 92839 0 god of cookery 8 92845 Oh, now I know what you mean, I remember the Korean awning. I'd looked at the menu posted, but was never by there at meal time. It was called some sort of Noodle House, i think. That was the location of the ill-fated Guilin Garden earlier. Tue May 06 20:34:18 -0700 2003 92843 0 Melanie Wong 4 92518 The KimChee if it was red, was probably Korean-style KimChee. The Chinese versions are usually white and not spicy. I'd love to lead a Chowdown on some of these Shandong food. Let me start doing some research to find the best place. I'll post an invite when ready. -t Sat May 03 03:32:31 -0700 2003 92494 0 tanspace 5 92522 A very worthy quest! Did you see the post about Cafe Yulong? Also, at China Village in Albany, the owner said his Beijing-ren chef would make whatever I wanted. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/23711#90744 Sat May 03 03:51:37 -0700 2003 92518 0 Melanie Wong 3 92498 Another Korean-Chinese place, and one of my current favorites, is Happy Family (4315 Telegraph Avenue in Oakland). I haven't had time to make a long post on the place but many of the same dishes are on the menu. I especially like the Pork Chinese Ravioli ($5.95 for 12) which are very juicy. Also, (in addition to many of the previously described dishes), the Spinach with garlic ($6.95). If you are lucky they will have Ong Choy (chinese "water spinach") with Fu Ru sauce (fermented bean curd); best version of this dish I've ever had. Since this is Oakland the clientele is diverse but many are Korean (the Koryo Wooden Barbecue place is across the street). I guess this is the place Koreans go when they want Chinese food. If you are non-Korean you may have to ask for the (free) kimchee, a mild variety. The chef-owner, his wife, and an occasional young waiter are the entire staff, and they are very sweet and friendly. Corkage varies from zero to $5 (total). Fri May 02 21:19:29 -0700 2003 92486 0 Joel Teller 4 92532 Joe, Do you know if this is the Chef owner/Wife team who owned the Happy Family on 3rd and Geary? Thanks-Tom- Sat May 03 11:38:23 -0700 2003 92498 0 TomG 5 92552 Tom asked: Do you know if this is the Chef owner/Wife team who owned the Happy Family on 3rd and Geary? My answer: It could be. They told me that they used to own a place in San Francisco (Richmond district) and moved to Oakland about two years ago. I believe the family name is Han; the chef is Chinese (but he lived in Korea for many years, his kids, now grown up, were born there) and his wife is Korean. The name "Happy Family" is not displayed on the sign outside -- just a "happy face" and some Korean which we cannot read. But the menu is titled "Happy Family." I've heard of another "Happy Family" in Oakland Chinatown but it is Cantonese I believe. Joel Sat May 03 15:32:57 -0700 2003 92532 0 Joel Teller 4 93055 I hope to answer a few questions brought up here. Happy Family is indeed the same restaurant from the one in SF on Geary. The owners are the Hans, and they moved the restaurant to Oakland and kept the location at the Geary sight but put one of their daughters in charge. She has since changed the place to an upscale loungy soju bar called Rohan which I recommend for good cocktails. There are quite a few Korean-Chinese restaurants in the bay area, but I've always found Happy Family consistant and good. You can always find a Korean-Chinese restaurant if you see a Chinese restaurant with Korean writing somewhere or on the menu. I also highly recommend the Gan Pong chicken or in Korean the Gang Poong Ki. The two dishes that most Korean people order in a Choong-Hwa (Chinese-Korean) restaurant is the Jang Pong, spicy seafood broth with shrimp, squid, noodles and other bits, and the Jajang Myun (Zha Jiang Mian) the black bean noodles. If you can't decide which one to get Happy Family a double deal called the Ja-Jang Pong which has both half orders of each on a double dish. One dish they you may have to ask for that I've seen people on occasion order is Chinese style Neng Myun - a cold buckwheat noodle in ice cold broth. I'm not sure what the exact difference is between the regualr Korean dish and the Chinese one. I do like Happy Family's Jajang myun, but the small place across the street has better Jajang myun IMHO. It's called Zzang noodles although they still have the signs for the hof brau that previously was there. Zzhang has also one the best poached dumplings I've ever had. They have another location in SF on Geary across from Kaiser near Japantown. Fri May 09 13:52:51 -0700 2003 92498 0 crimson 3 92499 Another Korean-Chinese place, and one of my current favorites, is Happy Family (4315 Telegraph Avenue in Oakland). I haven't had time to make a long post on the place but many of the same dishes are on the menu. I especially like the Pork Chinese Ravioli ($5.95 for 12) which are very juicy. Also, (in addition to many of the previously described dishes), the Spinach with garlic ($6.95). If you are lucky they will have Ong Choy (chinese "water spinach") with Fu Ru sauce (fermented bean curd); best version of this dish I've ever had. Since this is Oakland the clientele is diverse but many are Korean (the Koryo Wooden Barbecue place is across the street). I guess this is the place Koreans go when they want Chinese food. If you are non-Korean you may have to ask for the (free) kimchee, a mild variety. The chef-owner, his wife, and an occasional young waiter are the entire staff, and they are very sweet and friendly. Corkage varies from zero to $5 (total). Fri May 02 21:19:38 -0700 2003 92486 0 Joel Teller 4 92503 This restaurant was mentioned a while ago, but this is the first chow report we've had. Thanks for telling us about it and for your other tips today, Joel! I hope we'll hear more from you. The post highlighted below links up with the East Bay Express review. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/18299#57316 Fri May 02 21:28:46 -0700 2003 92499 0 Melanie Wong 4 92506 I like the reference to "Pork Chinese Ravioli". It reminds me of menus of 2nd Avenue Jewish restaurants in NY in the 60's that strived to enhance the accessibility of the menu by listing kreplach soup as "kreplach (won ton) soup." there was also a tinned kreplach soup that advised that it contained "12 kreplachs (wontons)." Sat May 03 00:08:29 -0700 2003 92499 0 Gary Soup 2 92505 I always thought that Shandong cuisine from the Shandong province is a distinct and genuine regional Chinese cuisine native to that province (and also distinct from Beijing cooking), not a Chinese-Korean hybrid, although some Shandong elements have travelled down the Korean penninsula e.g. zhajiang mian, liang mian, dumplings and other wheat-based stuff... Perhaps someone could clarify..... Fri May 02 22:44:36 -0700 2003 92485 0 Limster 3 92508 I don't think that tanspace was implying that Shandong cooking only finds its expression as a Korean-Chinese hybrid. In any case, Shandong/Beijing cuisine is one of the big four regional Chinese cuisines. Purists will say that there's really no "Beijing" cuisine (as there's no "Shanghai" cuisine in a traditional sense), that most of what we think of as Beijing cooking is descended from Shandong and should be called that. (g) Link: http://www.china.org.cn/english/imperial/26127.htm Sat May 03 00:10:28 -0700 2003 92505 0 Melanie Wong 4 92509 I tend to agree with you on the convenience of collapsing Chinese cuisine into four categories, but would add that "Beijing" cuisine is really Shandong/Manchu with a blend of portable regional influences, just as "Shanghai" cuisine is really Jiangsu/Zhejiang (or Jiangnan/Huaiyang) with an admixture of both portable regional and Western (i.e. foreign, not western China) influences. China may have four, or forty, or four hundred cuisines, but I never could comprehend the traditional parsing of it into eight. Sat May 03 01:12:18 -0700 2003 92508 0 Gary Soup 5 92513 Yes, you're both very correct in the explanations of Beijing/Shandong as well as Shanghai cuisine. It's definitely not a hybrid of Chinese-Korean. The more accurate way to think of it would be Korean-Chinese food is a "branch" of the main Shangdong cuisine, which also influences the Beijing Imperial cuisine. I have heard that, due to its proximity with Beijing, most of the cooks in the Beijing imperial kitchens were Shandongese, and they strongly influenced Beijing/Mandarin cuisine. The origin of Korean-Chinese cuisine is attributed to Shandongese who crossed the Yellow Sea to Korea at least as early as the 1900's. Most of them were from the coastal regions of Shandong (Jinan, Weihai, Rongcheng, Muping, and even some Chingdao (TsingTao), etc.) So when they came to Korea, they brought their food with them. And subsequently opened restaurants to sell these food. And as usual with most Chinese cuisine, they adopted the dishes and tastes to suit the local taste, and the items I listed earlier became the main dishes that are popoular to this date. So you won't find these dishes in any other styles Chinese restaurants (Shanghai, Sichuan, Hunan, etc.) Similarly if you see Xiaolongbao in the Korean-Chinese restaurant, it won't be that good. A good thing to try next time you're in one of these places is to ask the owner "Are you Shandong-Ren"? That would probably surprise the heck out of them and maybe even get you a free drink. :) -t Sat May 03 02:22:04 -0700 2003 92509 0 tanspace 6 92530 Tanspace, we're still waiting for you to reveal your source for good shui jiao! I don't have any model for what constitutes "good" shui jiao, but the best I have had in the US may be the ones made by my wife's sister (hope my wife doesn't read this!) She learned the art from a neighbor lady in Shanghai who was a Shandongren, and she takes great care, even using her tapered little rolling pin to get the edges of the wrapper right. I need to get up the curve on jiaozi and Shandong cuisine generally. We're contemplating buying an apartment in Qingdao so we can spend time year-round in China after I retire (don't want to spend the "dog days" of summer in Shanghai). Sat May 03 10:46:51 -0700 2003 92513 0 Gary Soup 5 92543 What would be the eight accepted Chinese Cuisines and what four would they be collapsed into. Sometimes I get lost in the disucssion of Chinese food on the board. Sat May 03 13:22:57 -0700 2003 92509 0 Stanley Stephan 6 92561 here's one split Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/19546#65634 Sat May 03 18:58:17 -0700 2003 92543 0 vn 6 92579 The players in the Elite Eight tend to vary depending on the source, but one nutshell breakdown can be found at the link below. "8" is a propitious number in China, so there's always a temptation to fit things into eight categories. (Four happens to be an inauspicious number). I agree with Melanie's grouping of four in the link in the below post. In terms or their population centers of gravity, they could be identified as Beijing, Shanghai, Guangzhou, and Chongqing regional cuisines. Any such groupings, of course, will raise hackles in some quarters just as Chowhound's breakown in geographical message boards does. Link: http://www.warriortours.com/intro/cuisine_eight.htm Sun May 04 00:14:00 -0700 2003 92543 0 Gary Soup 7 92581 Thanks vn and Gary. Excellent web page, Gary. I saved it for future reference. Sun May 04 00:32:39 -0700 2003 92579 0 Stanley Stephan 6 92585 A few years ago we got a set of now out of print Chinese cookbooks (coffee table size) which they define four Classic Chinese styles. Peking three volumes Shanghai two volumes Sizchuan two volumes Cantonese two volumes Grodon and I discuss these books at the last North dim sum tasting. We agree that this set was outstanding. The set of books list all the outstanding places to eat as will as give some recipes. After we started to read and enjoy the books we all agreed we would like to let someone else to do the cooking. Sun May 04 01:40:15 -0700 2003 92543 0 Yimster 7 92824 can you forward the publisher and isbn #'s if available? i'd like to bulk up on my chinese cookbooks but haven't found good ones. please feel free to email me offline -- thanks! Tue May 06 18:13:01 -0700 2003 92585 0 god of cookery 4 92551 re: Shandong/Beijing: I was wondering about that, as there are a couple of dishes in the Beiing repeitoire (peking duck, lamb hot pot) that I don't usually associate with Shandong cooking. Fortunately the link you provided came to the rescue -- I did a bit of digging and came up with the "main" page one level up from that page in Shandong cuisine. Quite a bit of general useful information there. Link: http://www.china.org.cn/english/imperial/25792.htm Sat May 03 15:10:55 -0700 2003 92508 0 Limster 1 92500 Here's a link to Yimster's recent post on San Tung. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/23353#88570 Fri May 02 21:22:38 -0700 2003 92451 0 Melanie Wong 1 92519 Han, what's the name or address of this place in Hayward? -t Sat May 03 03:35:45 -0700 2003 92451 0 tanspace 2 92729 Ed, This place in San Leandro: the only dish that I would really concentrate is the Kan Pong chicken. Check the link below -Han Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/17353#51322 Mon May 05 18:51:20 -0700 2003 92519 0 Han Lukito 1 92713 San Tung is a province in China that is famous for their culinary arts. If you go into certain San Tung restaurants you'll see Chinese people that do resemble Koreans. The San Tung appetizer preserved vegetables actually taste like kim chi, but I feel this is much better done and has more flavor. If you ever make the trip to San Francisco, there is a killer San Tung restaurant on Irving Street, somewhere between 12th and 19th ave (sorry I don't have the x streets memorized). Can't really miss it as it is near a Pho place and across the street from a restaurant that claims to serve northern style chinese food. Try the chive and pork boiled dumplings, and five spice beef noodle soup, with hand pulled fresh noodles. Lots of garlic in the broth...pretty darn good. San Tung chicken is also a famous dish. Can't really go wrong there. Mon May 05 18:08:15 -0700 2003 92451 0 KK 2 92716 Hi KK, San Tung is the name of the restaurant you've recommended on Irving and the specific place that we're discussing in this thread. :-) Any other Shandong style restaurants that you'd recommend? Mon May 05 18:21:57 -0700 2003 92713 0 Melanie Wong 3 92812 Whoops...didn't have time to read the entire thread... I don't know of any others that are as good as the one in Irving. A shame that the original one closed down (the one around Irving and 26th/27th area). I believe there is a San Dong restaurant in downtown San Mateo, very close to the movie theater...on B street. It's a small place, and their beef noodle soup is not bad (unfortunately that's all I've had there). I haven't been back since. I recall there was another one in Albany East Bay, but I don't remember the location. I wasn't too impressed with that one though. Tue May 06 15:54:05 -0700 2003 92716 0 KK