239390 Tue Jan 21 20:17:44 -0800 2003 51 19 Outer Boroughs 0 1269592 Can someone explain to me how the Brooklyn Brewery is in Utica? The Monster Ale 2003 and Oktoberfest beer in my possession indicate that's where the brewery is. So what are they giving a tour of on Saturday afternoons in Williamsburgh? Tue Jan 21 20:17:44 -0800 2003 0 JanetG 1 1269593 Although the Brooklyn Brewery does most of its brewing in Williamsburg, they job out some of their production to the F.X. Matt brewery in Utica (makers of Matt's, Utica Club, and Saranac). The off-site production is made according to Brooklyn's specs, recipe, ingredients, etc. I'm not sure, but I *think* Brooklyn may also send a representative up in Utica to oversee the off-site production. This arrangement is hardly unique -- many brewers job out their production to other brewers when their own facility is at or near capacity. -- Paul Tue Jan 21 20:56:56 -0800 2003 1269592 0 Paul Lukas 2 1269610 Case in point...some years ago I had the misfortune of touring the Schaefer/Stroh's plant in Allentown/Lehigh Valley...not only was the "tour" an idiotic walk-through of hallways with backlit production photos, the highlight was entering the tasting room to sample their "finest products" which, at this session were Schaefer Light and Stroh's N.A.(No Alcohol)...anyway, to make a long story short, the hospitality room beertender opens up the 'fridge, slams a SAM ADAMS HONEY WHEAT on the counter and said, "hey, we also make this here - butcha can't have it!" - then threw it back in the cooler. Timely is this thread, as we thoroughly enjoyed last Saturday's 3 O'clock tour and tasting conducted by Brooklyn's beer-wise question & answer man. There were two generous samples per person. The fresh-off-the-tap Weisse, Chocolate Stout and IPA tasted top-notch. Wed Jan 22 11:24:23 -0800 2003 1269593 0 Mike R. 3 1269621 Go on a tour. The beer is always the best at the brewery. I spent a few years within smelling distance of the malt from an Anheuser Busch plant and heartily recommend a visit to any brewery. The beer tastes better there. I've never been one to appreciate Michelob and have never purchased it in my life, except for a couple of kegs, maybe, in high school or college. However, the Michelob at the brewery tasted good, not great but good. There was not a lot of flavor but there was nothing disagreeable either, and the price was right, free. To me the difference was akin to a Lombardi's pizza at the restaurant and one delivered, by the time it's delivered it's lost something big time. Beer at a brewery is beer at its finest. Try it. Wed Jan 22 12:46:10 -0800 2003 1269610 0 Captain 4 1269623 Yeah, Cap'...reminds me of my first day as a VISTA Volunteer living in the heart of St. Louis, smack in the midst of Anheuser-Busch and the old Griesedieck (then Falstaff) breweries on the Near Southside. Never one to like the smell, since the days of avoiding Ruppert-Knickerbocker on East 9lst Street, I just had to suck it up, taking one big whiff of the vapors and living happily ever after. BTW, the free tour and tastings of Michelob and, at that time, Busch Bavarian were superb. Wed Jan 22 13:08:25 -0800 2003 1269621 0 Mike R. 5 1269625 A few years ago, I took the tour of the Guinness Hopstore in Dublin. You're not allowed to go into the actual brewery, but nearby is an old building where they used to store hops & now has a little exhibit explaining how Guinness is made. At the end of the tour is a pub, and with your admission you were entitled to TWO free pints! I went in late morning and so could only manage a small glass, which was terrific. I don't know if you could get the same deal these days. I'm sorry I missed out on the Heineken tour in Amsterdam. Wed Jan 22 13:16:40 -0800 2003 1269623 0 Chorus Girl 6 1269632 The wonderful things about the AH brewery were that the tour was purely optional (I went on it a few times) and that you could get two free ones every day (8 oz. each). I went many times just to get the freebies without a tour. Free beer is free beer. But it was the best tasting Michelob, Bud, Bud Light, Natural Light, etc. that I have ever had. Wed Jan 22 14:27:12 -0800 2003 1269625 0 Captain 7 1269635 «But it was the best tasting Michelob, Bud, Bud Light, Natural Light, etc. that I have ever had.» That's like saying that a specific Domino's Pizza slice was the best one you ever had. Wed Jan 22 15:07:42 -0800 2003 1269632 0 bobjbkln 8 1269639 In fact, quality-control be damned, variations on the theme of Bud, Busch, Michelob, etc. due to the local water characteristics were (and to some extent) still are a key factor in my purchases of AB products...the discerning palate finds that a St. Louis-made Bud or a Merrimack, NH-made Bud is superior and cleaner than a Newark Bud, which unfortunately is the bulk of the Bud we NY'ers are used to...the bottle/can code reveals where the beer is produced...FRESHNESS, of course, matters...with few exceptions...Tap beers, treated properly, are the finest specimens from any brewery. Now, while you're at THRIFTY Beverage on Court Street, see if they carry RedHook Ales made in Seattle or Red Tail Ale from Mendocino County...more than likely you're getting an inferior product, IMHO, from their New Hampshire or Saratoga Springs breweries. Wed Jan 22 15:30:38 -0800 2003 1269635 0 Mike R. 9 1269657 I do not want to continue this and turn it into a flame war, so this is my last comment. Frankly, I think that Red Hook is far inferior to its past brew, not because the East Coast version is brewed in New Hampshire (I forgot the brewery it acquired), but rather because it is owned by Anheiser Busch and their corporate values predominate. As to your other point, freshness does matter, but I would rather drink an older brewed Brooklyn Lager than a recently manufactured Bud p*ss. Wed Jan 22 20:04:24 -0800 2003 1269639 0 bobjbkln 10 1269664 Redhook built their own brewery in NH. It is only partly owned by A-B, I believe around 25%. Wed Jan 22 22:31:53 -0800 2003 1269657 0 Jim Dorsch 8 1269641 I can't believe someone would admit to drinking Natty Lite It's worst than the beast -- Milwaukee's Best Wed Jan 22 16:09:44 -0800 2003 1269635 0 mjr_inthegardens 8 1269643 Well, the point I was trying to make is that at the breweries these beers don't taste bad. Outside the breweries, they stink. BTW, I'd rank Natty Light above the Beast and think that anyone who knows how to rank them must have drank them. Wed Jan 22 17:08:23 -0800 2003 1269635 0 Captain 9 1269645 :) sue me roadtrips were made for rock bottom 30 packs Wed Jan 22 17:21:37 -0800 2003 1269643 0 mjr_inthegarden 10 1269650 I felt that way about all of college, not just roadtrips. Some I know felt that way about grad school too. Can't sue, there are no damages. Wed Jan 22 17:51:45 -0800 2003 1269645 0 Captain 6 1269633 I highly recommend the Heinekin tour. It's very entertaining. They do give you plenty of free beer, but it's no better there than it is here. Free or not, I couldn't finish my share. Wed Jan 22 14:48:22 -0800 2003 1269625 0 ironmom 2 1269665 What a long, winding, strange discussion--with so many grievances! To return to the initial point: Over the last 20 years, many many fine brewers have gone bankrupt installing and running elaborate bottling lines. It's much more economical to "contract brew" out of larger breweries--in this case, F.X. Matt, which is one of the few midlevel breweries to survive the Anheuser/Coors blitzkrieg of the '50s and '60s. It's great for F.X. Matt (one of the best), and it's great for Brooklyn, which I'm sure sends Garrett Oliver or one of his associates up there every few weeks to oversee the brewing and bottling of Brooklyn Lager or Brooklyn Brown. HOWEVER: The specialty tap-only beers are, as far as I know, brewed in Williamsburg. And that is the best stuff: the hefe-weizen, the current Abbey Tripel (a masterpiece), the Saison, and sundry other seasonal products. I'm not a Brooklyn groupie or anything--I find the chocolate stout way too brawny and alcoholic, like some steroid-enhanced bodybuilder flexing his muscles--but the brewery has found an ingenious middle ground between contract-brewing EVERYTHING (which Sam Adams and many other flamboyantly "local" breweries do) and keeping a regional focus. Do find that Tripel if you can. And always go for the Brooklyn Weiss, rare Dunkel Weiss, Saison, and other draft-only products. Thu Jan 23 00:26:19 -0800 2003 1269593 0 David Edelstein 3 1269671 Also, as a distributor of many fine craft and import brews, and through their associated work to bring craft beers into fine dining establishments, the Brooklyn Brewery has been instrumental in changing NYC's beer culture. Thu Jan 23 06:24:41 -0800 2003 1269665 0 Jim Dorsch 4 1269677 The fact of the matter is the Brooklyn Brewery had to become a beer distributor in order to successfully place their own beers, among other brands, in their initial years. Thu Jan 23 10:51:19 -0800 2003 1269671 0 JKL 5 1269678 This is true, and now the wholesale operation is for sale. But this doesn't change the fact that they did much to change the attitude toward better beer in New York. Thu Jan 23 10:57:37 -0800 2003 1269677 0 Jim Dorsch 3 1269709 Boston Beer owns the former Hudepohl-Schoenling brewery in Cincinnati, so they do maker at least a portion of Sam Adams beer in a company-owned brewery. Fri Jan 24 07:30:13 -0800 2003 1269665 0 Jim Dorsch 4 1269712 So, where does one snatch a case of "Little Kings" these days? Fri Jan 24 09:39:14 -0800 2003 1269709 0 Mike R. 5 1269720 Boston Beer bought the brewery, but not the brands. Little Kings is a product of Snyder Intl, which owns the Frederick Brewing Co in Frederick, MD, and that's where Little Kings is made. Now, where to buy it is a whole 'nuther question! Fri Jan 24 11:09:28 -0800 2003 1269712 0 Jim Dorsch 1 1269594 Brooklyn Beer does have a Brewery for some of their products in the Northside neighborhood (between Greenpoint and Williamsburgh) but they do not have a bottling plant there. Most of their product is made and bottled using their recipes under the supervision of their Brewmaster, Garrett Oliver, by the FX Matt Brewing Company in Utica New York, one of the largest Contract Brewers in the US. You'll enjoy their tour of the Northside Brewery where you will be able to get a more definitive answer to your question. They also have a website. If the information you want is not there, I'm sure they will give you more details about their brewing locations if you e-mail them using the contact information on the site. Link: http://www.brooklynbrewery.com Tue Jan 21 20:57:56 -0800 2003 1269592 0 bobjbkln 2 1269598 I did look at the website, and a reasonable reader would conclude that they started out compelled to brew their beer in Utica because there were no adequate facilities here, but in 1996 opened the Brooklyn brewery to solve that problem. No mention that they're still producing their products in Utica. All things being equal (and, yes, I know they never are), I would prefer to consume a local product, employing local labor, and I believe Brooklyn Beer to be playing on these sentiments. Wed Jan 22 05:59:13 -0800 2003 1269594 0 JanetG 3 1269599 Yeah, I like to buy locally, too. But I think it's lame that I get charged the same price for a 6-pack or pint of Brooklyn Lager as I do Bass or similar imports. I emailed Brooklyn Brewery about this and they said the bars set the price and they have no control. The ubiquitous $5.00 (or more) for a pint in Manhattan smacks of greed, especially for a beer brewed on the other side of the river or in Utica. In New York, there should be some value associated with drinking Brooklyn Beer; as there is (most of the time) when drinking the local brew in Texas (Celis), New Orleans (Abita), San Francisco (Anchor Steam). In fact, I'll often choose not to drink Brooklyn beers when I'm in New York because I resent paying what I consider over inflated prices. Do people in other states get value when drinking the local beer? How about Sam Adams in Boston? How is it priced compared to Bass, Guiness, etc.? Wed Jan 22 08:34:23 -0800 2003 1269598 0 Christopher 4 1269600 welcome to New York City Wed Jan 22 09:08:03 -0800 2003 1269599 0 mjr_inthegardens 5 1269601 Well, I've lived in NYC 16 years and I realize stuff costs more here but c'mon, $5.00 or more for a pint of Brooklyn Lager - no bueno! Oops - there I go again, trying to live in that "perfect world." It's easy enough to find good happy hour bars or go to Mugs in Williamsburg for value. Wed Jan 22 09:21:26 -0800 2003 1269600 0 Christopher 6 1269603 Of course, you can go to the Brewery when it's open (although not often enough), and get two pints for $5. Most of the lager, and some of the other beer, I believe, is brewed in Brooklyn, but they don't have enough room for all the beers at the Brewery, so they use the brewery up in Utica as well. But much of it is produced locally, and available cheaply (in pints or by the case) at the brewery. Wed Jan 22 09:32:42 -0800 2003 1269601 0 Adam 7 1269604 on the tour they said that they brew their small-batch beers that are released keg-only in brooklyn(trippel,abbey-ale, etc) as for the pricing, local brews are rarely ever cheaper in their localities. much of this has to do with bars and distributors. considering the quality, i think the fact that you can get a six of brooklyn for the same money as a six of anything else (it could easily be priced as a premium, in my opinion) reflects what might be considered a local discount. besides, utica is a far cry from a unibrau megaplant or the like. they just happen to have the big machines up there. Wed Jan 22 09:46:52 -0800 2003 1269603 0 matt 7 1269630 you can still get 2 beers for $5 at the brooklyn brewery, but they are no longer pints. as of about a year ago(~) they started serving 12 ounce cups instead. i still think it is a nice place to get a good beer on a friday evening, but this change was a mistake. considering that they are only open for 4 hours a week, how much more money do they really manage to squeeze out of a keg due to the stingy serving? and it certainly makes a regular visitor to the brewery feel a bit underappreciated. j Wed Jan 22 14:10:29 -0800 2003 1269603 0 jordan 5 1269733 yeah welcome indeed! the real problem is none of their beers are very good. oh, i still drink them sometimes, but they are really just mediocre. so are HEARTLAND'S for that matter. it's a shame too because local micro brews are so much better almost everywhere in the rest of the country. someone else who knows what they are doing and not just out to make a buck in the tired 'massive new york population game' should step up to the plate and put some care, craft and consistancy into their brews. Fri Jan 24 18:41:30 -0800 2003 1269600 0 mrnyc 4 1269608 I understand the economics of the whole situation on the bars behalf, but you are correct in that you would expect some value from the local product- at least as an enticement for purchase. In addition, in my experience and contrary to some other posts, there exists local beers with great value. Yunegling, an excellent beer growing in popularity in this city, is dirt cheap in Pennsylvania where its brewed- even in Philly. Iron City from Pittsburg, though not as high in quality as Yuengling or Brooklyn, in New York terms is, practically free in the Pittsburgh area. Wed Jan 22 11:08:28 -0800 2003 1269599 0 dpw206 5 1269615 In my opinion Yeuling and Iron City beers are so bad they should pay me the consumer to drink them. Watery, tasteless stuff. Wed Jan 22 12:05:19 -0800 2003 1269608 0 DeeDee 6 1269616 Why do you think they call them "taste BUDS", anyway? Wed Jan 22 12:09:23 -0800 2003 1269615 0 Mike R. 6 1269618 I tend to agree with DeeDee. However, for the price I'll take a pint of Yuengling Porter or Black and Tan over the nearly unpotable swill produced by Bud, Coors, Rolling Rock, etc. Yuengling is not in the same category as Brooklyn or Victory, but IMO it beats most of the beers in its peer group. Muk Wed Jan 22 12:30:07 -0800 2003 1269615 0 Muk 7 1269620 Iron City was an example of a local, cheap beer that is supported in a city/region, no claims were made as to its deliciousness (I agree, its rotgut). I take exeception to the Yuengling slap, however, it does its job better than most(that of an everyday beer) and is a great value. The porter is great and is well regarded by many a reviewer. To compare porter or lager to the finest microbrews or some $8 dollar a bottle (at a deli, forget about a bar) imports is nearsighted and unfair, but it levels any mass market brews, and many other local beers, that are its most direct competition. I still stand by that New York City could use a local, good quality beer at a good price that becomes the "old standby" that many regions in this country enjoy and even rally around. Wed Jan 22 12:44:01 -0800 2003 1269618 0 dpw206 8 1269624 I believe RHEINGOLD (once Brooklyn, then Orange, NJ, then the brand was sold to Schmidt's of Phila., then it died)is in its fifth attempt at revival. All they'd need is to reappear in their classic 10-ounce, squat-bottled, wide-mouthed, peel-back aluminum-topped "Chug-A-Mugs" and you couldn't hold back the crowds. Wed Jan 22 13:15:08 -0800 2003 1269620 0 Mike R. 6 1269651 Go for Lord Chesterfield Ale, a different product put out by Yuengling. A good, basic brew, much worthier than the lager. Wed Jan 22 18:04:10 -0800 2003 1269615 0 Bob Libkind 4 1269609 I understand your sentiments but beer is four-fifty to five dollars in Manhattan. Even in dives its four to five bucks. unless your drinking cheaper beers like Rolling Rock, PBR, BUD or the like. Anything with flavor is a fiver. but that begs a different question. If everything with flavor is five bucks how do they get away with selling Stella Artois for that much? : ) Wed Jan 22 11:20:28 -0800 2003 1269599 0 SLAP 5 1269611 Try Farrell's in Windsor Terrace...sure, there may be five taps (Budweiser, Budweiser, BUD, Budweiser and -you guessed it- BUD!), but, at last visit, a 32-ounce container (that's TWO pints, unless you'd like to get technical counting Imperials or foam)is somewhere around $3.25 - that's VALUE! As for Stella Artois, it's just another indistinguishable, "fashion" beer which will likely come and go. Now, if they could just revive Stegmaier's (a fine brew from Wilkes-Barre, Pa.), or Old Bohemian (Hammonton, New Jersey), there might just be a $2-buck pint in your future. Wed Jan 22 11:43:26 -0800 2003 1269609 0 Mike R. 6 1269627 Farrell's is the one place I can drink Bud, especially on a hot summer day. So cold and they keep the lines so clean.... Funny and classic Farrell story that I heard Jim Ryan from Fox 5 tell is how he went there with a lady friend and she said "oh do you have any lite beers?" and the bartender says, "yeah have a glass of bud instead of a container." Wed Jan 22 13:25:51 -0800 2003 1269611 0 Abbylovi 7 1269628 A HOOT!...thanks for the story. Wed Jan 22 13:41:59 -0800 2003 1269627 0 Mike R. 5 1269700 Its really funny, because Stella is considered cheap Budweiser like swill in europe., but here they have conned everyone into thinking that its good.. obviously some people have caught on... The Emperor's new cloths syndrome strikes again New Yorkers are such fashion victims....sometimes Thu Jan 23 21:39:41 -0800 2003 1269609 0 jason 6 1269776 Reminds me of a display of Thunderbird wine I saw in a London store in the '80s, with the slogan "Thunderbird, an American classic". Sun Jan 26 17:53:45 -0800 2003 1269700 0 JanetG 4 1269619 I've read your post like 3 times and I'm still not sure I understand what you're saying. You say you like to support local producers but you won't drink Brooklyn Brewery beer because it's as expensive as other beers? You're penalizing Brooklyn Brewery for the price that bars set? Wed Jan 22 12:36:05 -0800 2003 1269599 0 Abbylovi 5 1269638 I would like to support Brooklyn Brewery more than I do but I usually order something else because I resent the price tag; either in bars or delis. I hardly think I'm "punishing" them by withholding puchase because as one bartender told me, "we can't keep enough of this stuff in stock. It flies off the bar as much as anything we sell. And the market bares the price." In other words, I don't think they're suffering financially so I buy other products with a clear conscience. When I'm in the mood for a Brooklyn Pennant Ale, nothing else will do. In fact, I can't wait till the next 75 degree day we have so I can work up a sweat and enjoy a pint:) I'm glad people brought up Yeungling which is also getting the marketing treatment in NYC. 10 or more years ago it was sold here as the swill that it is; or, if you like, the everyday beer that it is. After a decade's absence, it's back and being marketed and sold like a premium. The people I know from Pennsylvania are glad it's here but resent the inflated price tag. It's a good beer, better than Bud, Coors, Miller, etc. but it's not "fantastic." And, yes, it's definitely better than Stella. Anyway, the price we pay for Brooklyn Beer is a pet peeve of mine. In some ways, I think it reflects how NYC has gotten more expensive in the last 10 yrs. You know, 100 people in line for a $1600.00 a month studio apartment on the 6th floor of a walk-up. Why not charge $1900.00 a month, as long as someone's willing to pay? I know, I'm into "not about food territory" and, frankly, I don't want to go there. Talking about housing costs will only bum us out. On with food discussions!! Wed Jan 22 15:24:28 -0800 2003 1269619 0 Christopher 4 1269634 Go to a beer store like Thrifty American (on Court St.) and you will see that Brooklyn is quite a bit cheaper than equivant local brews. They are $6.99 a six pack, while other equivilants from Victory, Weyerbacher, Grants, Sierra Nevada etc. are $7.49 to $8.99 on sale. I don't expect a better price break than that. The Black Chocolate Stout which costs the same $6.99 and their $8.99 Monster Ale (Barley Wine)are some of the best beer buys around. Wed Jan 22 15:01:20 -0800 2003 1269599 0 bobjbkln 4 1269699 Lets face it, most nyc bar owners and restaurant owners are just plain greedy...' HEY check out my letter in this week's Time Out about this very matter, only concerning wine prices Thu Jan 23 21:36:35 -0800 2003 1269599 0 jason 3 1269607 I like to support local breweries too but I don't mind supporting F.X. Matt in Utica either. This is an old time regional brewery whose main products used to be Utica Club and Matt's (and Maximus Super, my first HS buzz). With all the price pressure put on small brewers by the likes of AB these small brewers fell by the wayside in the dozens. F.X. Matt was clever enough to start doing a lot of contract brewing for growing micros who outgrew their plant; their main product now is the Saranac line of beers. It is a lovely old brewery (or was many years ago) in a particularly depressed area of the state; just for that I'd like to see them prosper. NYC beer bars don't seem to push good local products too heavily; nothing like one sees in Phila. or the Pacific NW. We have several good places here in NJ with nice lineups that include Victory, Climax, High Point, Flying Fish..... Now if I could only get beers from Middle Ages (Syracuse) here I would really be happy. Cheers, Joe Moryl Wed Jan 22 11:02:22 -0800 2003 1269598 0 Joe Moryl 4 1269648 Whoa.... Middle Ages Brewery - that takes me back. Grail Ale and Winter Wizard! The Kilt Tilter. Fantastic brews! There are way too many beers availablehere in NY and the main majority of people are happy with their Bass (or even Bud). Perhaps Peculiar Pub in the Village may offer it - they've surprised me in the past... Wed Jan 22 17:38:03 -0800 2003 1269607 0 Lambretta76 5 1269655 My favorite from Middle Ages is their IPA - ImPaled Ale - huge in the hops department and only $5.99 a sixpack (upstate). If you get a chance, try this in the cask conditioned, handpumped version; I think it is the house beer at Clark's in Syracuse (and often appears at the Blue Tusk). Cheers, Joe Moryl Wed Jan 22 19:09:34 -0800 2003 1269648 0 Joe Moryl