23883 Sat Apr 26 11:42:53 -0700 2003 51 1 San Francisco Bay Area 0 91750 Well, hoping for the best, I went down early to the Ferry Market. Initial reaction: not good. Parking is awful -- either you walk a long ways with heavy bags, or spend a lot of money for a valet lot. Or both. Shopping is also difficult. The nice thing about the former arrangement is that I could make a round to survey what was in before buying. Unless you want to spend a lot of time, that is now virtually impossible. Some vendors are out front, most out back. Soon a number will have permanent store fronts inside. That's great for the fish and meat vendors, and it will be nice to be able to visit them at other times. But shopping was stressful, not quite the social situation it was. I realize that some of this is the shock of the new, and so will give it a few weeks. But so far, I'm not happy. Neither are any of the vendors I spoke to. I talked to six or 7 of the folks I usually buy from. One was circumspect, saying that this move was always planned. The others were either not happy and quite apprehensive, or downright angry, saying the whole thing was another political boondoggle and that CUESA was nothing but a political organization who didn't really care about the farmers. Several are considering whether they shouldn't go elsewhere (including at least one very well known producer). Bottom line: while the jury is still out because it's early, and the first week is likely to be the worse, things don't look good ... at least for my continued patronage. Sat Apr 26 11:42:53 -0700 2003 0 Joan Kureczka 1 91752 I'm usually at the market by 7:30 anyway but this week I decided to go even a little earlier to check it out. My reaction is the same as yours. My husband's was more extreme and he was sputtering this morning over this negative thing or that negative thing... We both have worked in various locations in the area so are very familiar with street patterns, parking, etc. Parking's not as easy as before by any means. A lot of schlepping will be have to be done and/or more money will have to be forked over for either valeting/metering/garaging your car or valeting your veggies as they call it. On those grey rainy days it'll really be a bear. Before I buy I always would make one round of the entire market to see who had new product or "good" prices, etc. Navigating the market today seemed cumbersome from this perspective. I usually shop with a list because I know who has what that I like and what's in season. Having to go from the front arcade north side to the back arcade through the building to reach the south front arcade just seems like more of a pain that it was before in order to hit the farmers I usually look for. I try to get all my shopping done in 30 minutes and then I'm out before the crowds come. I don't anticipate that being possible here. As we were walking along, we passed Soyoung Scanlon of Andante Dairy. She made a comment to the effect of "The regulars ARE coming!" In today's gathering around 7:30 or so, I recognized a number of other shoppers who usually come at that time in the morning. It was great to see that. There were more people by 8 and I saw a number of them lining up to buy Ferry Market bags, t-shirts, and other stuff. Does it/will it have the same feeling as the old market? Sadly no. It doesn't even have the same sun patterns. Now the farmers in the front arcade won't get sun until the afternoon though being on the bay for the back arcade was pretty nice. Nevertheless, my husband is sure that an "alternative" market will be started along the lines of the farmers' reactions you had indicated...maybe. Hopefully, when the dust finally settles, it will ultimately be great for all of the farmers from an exposure, education and revenue perspective. Sat Apr 26 12:20:58 -0700 2003 91750 0 Tida 2 91813 I hated the "old" farmer's market - it was a mob scene of baby strollers and people grabbing for Acme bread like they had never seen food before. I never got out of there without being elbowed or cut off in line. Half the time I couldn't get the merchants to take my money because they were too busy yacking about how precious their produce was. Whatever they are doing at the Ferry Building can't help but be an improvement. Sun Apr 27 15:45:01 -0700 2003 91752 0 Regina Towers 3 91912 Is the irony in some of these posts lost on everyone? All of those complaining about a lack of "parking" inhibiting their ability to buy over priced, eco-friendly organic produce are making me laugh. Sustainable agriculture becoming inaccesible because of a lack of fossil fuel car parking? Take public transportation: the Ferry Terminal is one block from BART, Muni Train and Cable Car line. Mon Apr 28 16:59:00 -0700 2003 91813 0 Bob Dare 4 92063 I've noted this irony, and wondered at the people who think free, on-site automobile parking is a God-given right even in the middle of Downtown San Francisco. It's also amusing to me that some people find the new market too precious, while other people are incensed that actual parents with young children (i.e. pushing strollers) would dare to show up. Tue Apr 29 17:55:53 -0700 2003 91912 0 Nathan Landau 5 92070 ...and simultaneously occuring on the General board, people are expressing their shock and/or sadness at seeing people with carts full of packaged junk food at the grocery store. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/292656#1597991 Tue Apr 29 18:37:36 -0700 2003 92063 0 nja 1 91757 It's new. It's different. It is not more difficult to navigate or deal with than was the former location -- it is just that the difficulties are new. It was hard to find vendors that I've been going to. That is explained by the fact that this place is new. Next week it will be easier. And the week after that, and after that, and so on. The quality and selection remain stellar. I am so sick and tired of incessant bitching and moaning. If people find it that hard to adapt, let them go elsewhere. Sat Apr 26 13:35:37 -0700 2003 91750 0 mapwise 2 91759 ... but I don't want to shop there anymore ... so yes, I plan to do exactly what you suggested, go elsewhere. I do suggest that anyone who is unhappy send an e-mail to CUESA. I was the person this morning screaming at cuesa "Have you lost your minds ... this is a farmers market ... people carry HEAVY bags". I got there really early as well, and got one of the plum spaces across the street at a meter, but even that was too much of a walk for me with heavy bags. Unfortunately my knee went out a few days ago, so I couldn't stay around for the ribbon cutting where I intended to make a scene. So I said goodbye to my favorite vendors. Many of them either are at the Marin Farmer's market on Sunday or the Civic center market on Wednesday. I see this as an opportunity to explore the other regional farmer's markets. This is just an upscale mall. I'm sure I'll drop by during the holidays or take out of town friends. But shop there every week, no way. I was told to be patient. The bugs will get worked out. I'm not paying five bucks for a box of strawberries to work the bugs out. This was an ill conceived project. An article below from today's Chronicle about some other problems. I bought my last Zuckerman's asparagus, some olive oil and balsamic vinegar to hold me over and then did my greens shopping at the Berkely Bowl ... it was less expensive, had a wider variety and less of a hassle. Link: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2003/04/26/MN288497.DTL Sat Apr 26 14:52:02 -0700 2003 91757 0 Stanley Stephan 3 91775 I don't understand what is the problem. Lack of nearby parking? It's true, there are fewer meter parkings than at the old location, but, as the Chron said, there is a 400-car garage at Howard and Steuart (that's two blocks away) that has a special $3-all-day rate. Also, they are supposed to have a table (again, quoting the Chron; I was there today but didn't see where it was) that will hold your purchases while you go and get your car to load it up. Also, the Embarcadero is probably the best public transportation hub in the city. You've got buses, muni, BART -- all within one or two blocks. Much better than the old location. This is an *urban* market; use urban resources to get there. Sat Apr 26 22:23:59 -0700 2003 91759 0 svL 4 91784 One thing I've noticed in the comments is that people feel this is a "new" location. While the plaza has changed, I would note that this is, nonetheless, closer to the _original_ location. The more recent "old" placement was merely temporary. I've found that I haven't gone to the market as frequently since it was moved _from_ the ferry bldg. plaza a few years ago. I didn't get a chance to go today, but my guess is that I will next week, and that I'll generally enjoy it. Parking is always a problem in the city -- it's just part of life here (I've always gone on my Vespa -- with some creative loading and riding, you can still carry away a decent amount of produce...) Sun Apr 27 00:40:10 -0700 2003 91775 0 Zach Georgopoulos 3 91785 Be real, Stanley. The Saturday Market hasn't really been a Farmers' Market for a long time, if ever. The Alemany Market and the UN Plaza Market can claim to be "wet markets" but the Ferry Plaza Market is the "Saturday Markup", with lots of designer produce commanding a high price for adhering to vague (and getting vaguer) government standards for "organic" and non-existent standards for "natural" foods. Yes, there are high quality, hand-crafted "artisanal" products (jams, breads, cheeses, whetever) for those willing to pay the price, but they don't have a lot to do with farms anymore. My opinion is that CUESA should be, and probably is, gleefully thankful to have a permanent and stunning showplace to market its own singular handcrafted product. Sun Apr 27 00:44:27 -0700 2003 91759 0 Gary Soup 1 91760 My initial reaction is that it is different. The new Ferry Plaza location is worse in some way, and better in others. If people insist on driving, it is more difficult. I live near BART and would rather not drive, so for me it is much easier. Vendors are in new locations, and the split between the front and back of the plaza is disorienting and makes it more difficult to compare produce between vendors. That being said, it is a much more beautiful larger space, and combined with the permanent stalls in the arcade, will create an artisanal food experience that will be great for locals and tourists, bringing the joy of great food to far more people. Human beings as a rule do not like change. The move to Ferry Plaza is a significant change, both in terms of optimal ways of getting there along with where the vendors are situated in relationship to each other. The produce was of the same incredibly high quality, and the prices were the same as always. I hope this move works out, and that the people who no longer come because it is not convenient enough due to lack of parking are outnumbered by the people who find it more convenient because it is nearer transportation hubs and enjoy it more because of its more beautiful location. Only time will tell. Sat Apr 26 15:14:33 -0700 2003 91750 0 Ed Baum 1 91770 A suggestion to all who, like me, had a disappointing [or worse] experience today..... don't go near the place till July 4... it will be more operational by then, and it will be a more accurate test of whether it will be simply a different "farmer's market" or some hideous "Euro-Disney" travesty. The good old Alemany [sp?] market remains, even though the "condo-izing" of the neighborhood has long since made parking almost as frustrating as the Ferry Building.If local residents don't frequent the new place, it will deteriorate into "Fisherman's Wharf South-so long, farmers. How many tourists do you see carting a few bags of produce back to their Hotel rooms to prepare a yummy evening meal? Sat Apr 26 21:14:22 -0700 2003 91750 0 Jimbo 1 91774 My initial reaction: different and more crowded (as expected), nicer in some ways (sort of unexpected) and overall still a great experience. So far, I don't sense the foodie theme park ambience that some have feared. My first pass through the new layout reassured me that favorite suppliers are still around and that the food remains the focus. (I did miss Andante entirely on my first circuit, hidden behind a long line for Acme bread, but caught up with it later. Serious bottleneck on that loop.) Like other posters I'm in the habit of taking a lap or two before shopping, to see what's out there. That's slightly harder now, but still doable. I suppose I'll just adopt a new habit of checking out the stalls in front first, then wandering out back and doing the same there. There is, as Joan notes, a certain "shock of the new" here, and adjustments to be made. On the plus side is the improved public transit access -- a boon for a carless shopper like me, who does not have the option of finding all these suppliers so readily at other venues. (Another advantage, unimportant unless you need them: rest rooms.) What took me by surprise, even though I knew where the Ferry Building is situated, was how much the bay is now part of the experience. Especially for shoppers who go in for the prepared foods (my seasonal indulgence: Zuckerman Farms' fried asparagus, just a couple drops of balsamico, please), those benches facing the Bay Bridge make a wonderful resting and noshing spot. This growing market was changed in part to accommodate more shoppers. It was built, and they came. The much-trumpeted move may have gotten as much press as the market has had in all the years it's been around, one reason today's crowd was so much heavier than we're accustomed to. Some may have been newcomers drawn to the "event"; they'll move on to new novelties. Others sampled the produce and will be back, converts to food bought direct from local producers. For anyone who supports agriculture done in this way -- as inconvenient or unfamiliar as things may have seemed today -- isn't that ultimately a good thing? Sat Apr 26 22:23:03 -0700 2003 91750 0 squid-kun 1 91786 Gosh, this thread is enlightening! "Parking is too difficult." "It's too confusing." "It's not like before." I hope some of these posters' parents slap them on the behind with their 1968 Whole Earth Catalog. Either that, or we vote 'em off the island. Sun Apr 27 01:11:09 -0700 2003 91750 0 Gary Soup 2 91788 Amen! Sun Apr 27 01:51:22 -0700 2003 91786 0 farmed out 2 91789 If Safeway situatated it's parking lots two blocks from the store and charged you three dollars to park, how long would they be in business? I did my serious shopping at the farmer's market. Someone was saying last year what a big deal it was to them that they dropped $30 one Saturday there. That's a light duty day for me. I easily drop $100 at the market. Sure the place is great for people who are not serious shoppers, those people who buy a tomato or two or a little fried asparagus to enjoy while taking in the view on the bay. If you can get your goods home in a bag on Bart, you are a casual shopper. Also, this is not a handicapped accessible location. The same people who will hoot at that are the same type of people who want to close Golden Gate Park off to traffic ... people who have never suffered the pain of a bad back or trick knee. A few years ago I had back surgery which fortunately fixed the problem, however my back was so bad that I would be in such pain that I'd break into a sweat just walking around the mega markets. I currently have a bad knee that gives out every now and then. Carrying bags of heavy groceries for blocks is putting me at too much risk. I think of the nice elderly lady and her son who are regulars at the market. She is in her eighties and tooled around the market with her walker. I imagine she won't be there anymore. Going to the old location after 8:30 am was always more than I could put up with, because, as you said, this wasn't really a true farmer's market but a yuppie or whatever field trip. However, early in the morning, before the crowds showed up, you got to have a real relationship with real farmers. For all of CUESA saying it is pushing education, the real education was in the interface with the vendors. I never learned a darned thing from all of CUESA's literature. Just a lot of noise. The new market just divorced the market even further from the farmer. It's not about produce. At first, I thought that I would be stopping by the market on holidays. Then I looked over the shops occupying the building. Scharffen Berger, uh, ok. I think I bought some about two years ago. Sur La Table ... there's a real connection with the little farm. Taylor's Refresher ... so what. Recchiuti - I'd rather eat Sees. Oak Hill Farms - a florist. McEvoy Ranch ... the tourists can buy some olive oil soap to take home with them. Mastrelli's Delicatessen ... Molinari's ... and to tell you the truth, I don't go there that much. But a great tourist draw, eh? MarketBar - Mediterrean cuisine using "fresh products sold at the Marketplace". Them and a hundred other restaurants in the bay area. The tourists have a place to try out the veggies. Lulu Petite - Lulu had a temporary stint at the market and failed miserably. They didn't get it. And Lulu the restaurant aint that great these days. Imperial Tea Court ... how convenient for the tourists. Hog Island Oyster ... they'll be serving clam chowder too. I wonder if it will be in a sourdough bowl. Acme Bread ... well, doesn't Andronico's sell it. And I can conveniently buy my kitty litter and detergent at the same time. And, Andronico's has a parking lot. Cowgirl Creamery ... what good market doesn't sell this stuff? And quite frankly, their selection ain't that great. Ferry Plaza Seafoods ... AND you can eat it on site. I believe Pier 39 has this concept. Yet another restaurant masquarading as a vendor. I didn't see "The Fresh Fish" company today. For that matter, was Hoffman's there? Ferry Plaza Wine Merchant ... uh, yeah ... wine ... and wine from "around the world". That's keeping in the spirit of celebrating the local producers. Frog Hollow ... well maybe I'll stop by for the warren pears in September. Golden Gate Meat Company ... yet another vendor where you can buy prepared products ... another restaurant for the tourists. Peet's ... can Starbucks be far behind? If they were serious about small vendors, Graffeo or one of the North Beach coffee roasters would be there. While this is close to the location before it moved to Green Street, at the time it was located in front of the Ferry Building, there were two large lots adjacent to the market. If you bought a crate of strawberries, you could pull up near the vendor and quickly load it to the car. So the shops aren't that special. The location is geared toward the casual shopper and tourist. While the same vendors may be there, whatever little soul the market had has been soul-ed out. I'm sure Alice Waters and her ilk could care. They aren't hauling crates of veggies out of there, they have them devivered to their door. And to be picky, the main shopping area is too cramped. I left just before 8am and people were packing in. Sure I resent the new market. I've been supporting the market since they opened over a decade ago. It seems they feel the market they want is the tourist market. On the upside, there might be some decent enough restaurants that finally have a good view. But I'll bet the curse of the good view won't be lifted at this place. Just more 'Waterfront' type of restuarants. Quite honestly, I went there today expecting the worst, but this far exceeded my expectations. And did anyone catch all the security guards. Have to make sure no one makes off with an orange. As to the bag pick up, you have to hike down to the center of the Ferry Building with produce in tow. One would think that it might be more convenient to have a bag pick up NEAR the main vendor area. Thank goodness CUESA can't get it's greedy little hands on the Berkely Bowl. Sun Apr 27 02:36:20 -0700 2003 91786 0 Stanley Stephan 3 91798 Actually both the fresh fish company and Hoffman's were there. Unfortunately, I didn't find the fish until I was leaving and done with buying. And I thought they were the folks who were taking over the inside permanent space?? Sun Apr 27 10:42:29 -0700 2003 91789 0 Joan Kureczka 3 91799 Stanley, I don't want to be too antagonistic because I love your posts generally and you are an important part of this board, while I rarely post. But when someone takes a shot directly at something I posted, I have to respond. "If you can get your goods home in a bag on Bart, you are a casual shopper." Absolutely not true. My wife and I do our major shopping at the Saturday farmer's market every week. We spend the $100 or more you refer to. We also bring backpacks and are in our 30s. Our relative ability to carry a lot of food and our willingness to bring backpacks specifically to do so may differentiate us from many. I see lots of seniors who might not own backpacks or be physically able to carry a week's worth of shopping. I will grant you that most people are too attached to their cars to make the Ferry Plaza a viable site for the serious shopping you are referring to for a large group of people. I also generally agree with your characterization of the Ferry Plaza arcade as not being geared towards the farmer. But there are an awful lot of people who can and do serious shopping by taking BART. Or on their bikes. Or on MUNI. Sun Apr 27 10:46:27 -0700 2003 91789 0 Ed Baum 3 91803 I'll backtrack somewhat from my earlier hyperbole and admit that there are some small producers represented who travel great distances to offer fresh, high-quality produce and probably deserve the prices they get. You can find some of these at the other farmers' markets alongside the bulk of (not "organic") produce vendors who bring fresh produce for prices almost rivaling Chinatown's. The main point here is that the organic produce vendors are a relatively small component of the Saturday Market ethos, with an equally large (probably larger, from my casual observations) number of "artisans" providing baked goods, honeys, cheeses, jams, dried fruits, mushrooms, coffees, etc. which probably WILL be an attractive buy to more sophisticated vistors ("tourists", to you). I think that the move back to the Ferry Building is bringing Saturday Market partisans face-to-face with the reality of what it had become long ago. I also would submit that a $3.00 parking fee does not seem to me to be a heavy cross to bear for someone who can afford "huge bags" of produce from the Saturday Market (how many of you are there, anyway?) Spend the three bucks on gas and go to the Alemany market where you won't have to rub shoulders with "tourists". If enough disgruntled partisans do the same, the organic producers who aren't already at Alemany or UN Plaza will soon show up. As for the permanent stalls inside the Ferry Building, I don't think this feature was ever represented as being THE farmers' market. It's an attempt to emulate the great transportation center food markets like the Halles du Gare in Montreal and the refurbished Grand Central Terminal in New York, and I wish it success. Sun Apr 27 11:38:01 -0700 2003 91789 0 Gary Soup 4 91870 Yes, the market was crowded and there were too many strollers to make navigation easy. And, yes, both I and some of the farmers felt a bit out of sync because of the location change (I didn't find the mushroom seller until the very end because I nearly missed the second side out front). But overall it's still a great market and a fun experience--consider that in Boston (where I lived up until last fall), the largest and best farmers market reaches 20 stalls at the peak of summer and has hours most conducive to retirees and the unemployed, and there's far less reason to complain. I had to wait a long time for coffee (yes, I went to Peets because I hadn't yet found the market's usual coffee vendor)--but I passed the time talking about great restaurants with the person ahead of me in line, starting the conversation because he was wearing a Chowhound t-shirt! Mon Apr 28 12:01:02 -0700 2003 91803 0 amyd 5 91995 That might be the longest I've ever waited for a cup of coffee, but it was downright pleasant thanks to the company. Great chatting with you both -- and good luck in your hot sauce quest! Tue Apr 29 03:46:05 -0700 2003 91870 0 squid-kun 6 92013 So, Squid-kun, was that you in the black Chowhound t-shirt? I was the one who passed you in the crowd whispering furtively about having the same shirt (g). Tue Apr 29 13:05:17 -0700 2003 91995 0 Millicent 7 92017 Better than a secret handshake to identify your on-line friends on the chow scene! Here's where to get your Chowhound gear. Link: http://chowhound.safeshopper.com/12/cat12.htm?923 Image: http://chowhound.safeshopper.com/images/71bc3mm.jpg Tue Apr 29 13:22:31 -0700 2003 92013 0 Melanie Wong 8 92196 What a horribly unattractive logo! Can't we do better than that? Thu May 01 16:48:10 -0700 2003 92017 0 Count Marco 7 92110 Yes, hello, Millicent -- I'd have pulled over to chat a bit, but the tides were carrying us in opposite directions. Next time! Wed Apr 30 02:22:20 -0700 2003 92013 0 squid-kun 6 92144 So that's who you were! I've seen your postings but didn't know who on the Chow board I'd met. Nice talking to you, too. Wed Apr 30 12:17:03 -0700 2003 91995 0 amyd 5 92018 The Boston Farmer's market was once a Saturday all day thing that spread out over the entire North End. It was a wonderful place where you could buy huge baskets of mushrooms for practically nothing. There were inexpensive meat and fish vendors with incredible quality. The quality of the fruit and vegetables was stellar. This was before food became the hobby of the rich, so you had a thriving immigrant, working class and student community. It was in a great location for those fans of public transportation. However it was situated along the street and near public parking so if you made a major purchase you could haul a crate of spinach or whatever in the car. Then Boston decided to put in the fancy dancy shops and clean up the area and muscle out the small farmers and vendors. Rents went up. Starbucks and their ilk moved in. So what are you left with ... as you said ... 20 stalls. I hate seeing history repeat itself. Tue Apr 29 13:24:51 -0700 2003 91870 0 Stanley Stephan 6 92027 Are you refering to the Haymarket market just across from the North End that is open on Saturdays in Boston? That is still there, and has very inexpensive produce, fish, halal meats, etc. It has absolutely nothing to do with farmers. It is all mass production produce from all corners of the earth. If you want produce of the quality of the SF Farmer's Market, it is very difficult to get in Boston. Demand simply isn't there for farmers to go to the trouble of bringing their produce into town. That is why the Ferry Plaza market is so important. It is the demand for great food from locals and food tourists alike that allows the farmers and food artisans to make a living and give us the ability to get great foods directly from the people who made them. Tue Apr 29 14:20:25 -0700 2003 92018 0 Ed Baum 7 92142 No, I'm not talking about Haymarket. That place is awful, with rotten, low-quality food (there was nothing worse than being in the area after it closed up on Saturdays). As far as I know, the largest of the "real" farmers markets in the Boston area is the Brookline location, held on Thursday afternoons until dusk. For a sense of how much we should appreciate Ferry Plaza (and other farmers markets around SF), my truly "local" Boston neighborhood farmers market was held twice each week--once with only one stall and then peaking on Saturdays with two. Wed Apr 30 12:14:35 -0700 2003 92027 0 amyd 3 91804 Have you ever heard of a CART? I see them all the time at the Market and them see to save strained backs, knees, and arms. It might solve your problem. But I bet not. While you suggest a few legitimate points, your diatribe is full of inaccuracies and, frankly, the bitterness and sense of entitlement it exudes made it hard to read. There is no question that this place will be more successful than the last. That will help the farmers. If you want more interaction with them, go to Alemany. Sun Apr 27 11:54:04 -0700 2003 91789 0 mapwise 3 91857 maybe this will do the trick? -- Bag check: The market will have a bag check at the front of the building so shoppers can leave their heavy bags, retrieve their cars and drive into the loading zone to pick up purchases. Mon Apr 28 01:47:26 -0700 2003 91789 0 junior 2 91836 That is truly funny. I don't live in S.F. but the farmer's markets here, although lovely, are not nearly as wonderful as those in the bay area. We get all the same reactions after they open, too little parking, too many crowds, strollers with yuppies etc. I have a dumb question: I realize that CUESA may be difficult to approach but is the layout of the non-permanent stalls set in stone? Honestly speaking, I'll be one of those rubbing elbow tourists because despite its drawbacks it sounds like it will be a great outing. The $3 dollar parking and public transportation options make it all the more enticing. Thanks for all the good and bad reports I am happy we have a forum like this. Sun Apr 27 20:59:11 -0700 2003 91786 0 Tracy L. 3 91841 I think you meant "yuppies with strollers", but I really like the twist! Sun Apr 27 22:04:56 -0700 2003 91836 0 Jim H. 4 91873 I must be be twisted, hee-hee. I meant what I wrote because I always notice the stroller (and cute kid) before the noticing the parent. Mon Apr 28 12:40:48 -0700 2003 91841 0 Tracy L. 1 91812 The Ferry Building market will never be as good as the old Farmer's Market - the one that used to be where the Embarcadero Center is now. And don't even get me started on the old Crystal Palace on Market Street. This City ain't what it used to be. Sun Apr 27 15:40:58 -0700 2003 91750 0 Count Marco 2 92167 Hee! Count Marco, how nice to see you again! You'll be pleased to know I'm not wearing basic black with pearls. ;-) Wed Apr 30 19:24:23 -0700 2003 91812 0 Morgan 3 92195 Well I'm glad *someone* understood the reference! Thu May 01 16:44:47 -0700 2003 92167 0 Count Marco 4 92211 Of course, dahling! We miss you! Fri May 02 15:46:51 -0700 2003 92195 0 Morgan 1 91814 In my opinion, the idea of having one market to serve all of sf is really off the mark of why one has farmers markets. All of the markets around the country and the world that cuesa compares the Ferry Terminal to once started out as small neighborhood markets, or markets inside an enclosure which also started out smaller than they all are today. As demand grew, the market naturally grew, and supply naturally would meet demand. Of course the market inside Harrod's is a different situation, but it is right in the middle of the city. (haven't been there in years, but assume it's still the same bustling atmosphere) What we need to do is support smaller markets all around sf in different neighborhoods. There are so so many more growers out there, organic, commercial, small family farms, larger co-op run farms, cheese makers, bakers, sweets makers, jam makers, charcuteries, flower growers etc. than can be represented at the ONE and only market sf has. They all need to make a living too, and could easily fill the need of having many markets dotted around the city. It would seem to anyone who reads about food in this town that Frog Hollow is the only grower of quality peaches, Acme for a baguette, Star Route for salad mix, Marshall's for honey, etc. And I love all of the above, but there's so much more out there from northern cal., but so few spaces to go around for sales in markets. In Berkeley there are so many small markets, on many days of the week. I travel to them, and envy the people who only have to walk 3 blocks to get to them. We need to establish these types of markets here in this city too, and establish them in real neighborhoods where people will do thier real day-to-day, week-to-week shopping. Sun Apr 27 15:47:51 -0700 2003 91750 0 Liz 2 91895 The idea of having several sf/bay area markets in walking distance within the neighborhoods is done very well all over Europe. Mon Apr 28 14:59:41 -0700 2003 91814 0 maxine 2 91908 What do you mean "the one and only market"? How about Civic Center on Wednesdays and Sundays? Alemany on Saturdays? Ferry Plaza on Tuesdays and Thursdays? The Saturday Ferry Plaza Market is unique in that it really is upscale -- really a rather elitist market (although somewhat less elitist now that it's more convenient to public transit). But it's far from the only market. The problem is that you need a certain critical mass of customers in order for such specialized vendors to make a profit, especially when you are selling premium products at premium prices. The only thing that makes the Ferry Plaza Market economically viable is that it draws customers from all over the city and surrounding communities (people being labelled rather dismissively as "tourists"). If those customers were diluted by multiple markets, probably none of them would thrive. And please, all you people who are complaining about lugging bags, get a freaking folding cart and stop yammering about how it's now less convenient to burn gas in the name of sustainable agriculture. Mon Apr 28 16:50:34 -0700 2003 91814 0 Ruth Lafler 3 91914 "And please, all you people who are complaining about lugging bags, get a freaking folding cart and stop yammering about how it's now less convenient to burn gas in the name of sustainable agriculture." LOL! And amen, sister! Seriously, though, I am proudly car-less and get most of my food from the markets. It's just a different (and cheaper) way of living. I hold myself up as evidence that not everybody who shops at the market is a wealthy food snob. I'm a poor food snob. ; ) Anyway, can it really be THAT bad? It was the first day!! I strongly second another poster's advice to contact CUESA with your concerns. Whether you believe they are a purely political organiziation or not, they are responsible for this market, and we are their customers, so just tell them what you think! Fifteen, twenty, or however many more market regulars calling to complain about the set-up has to give them some pause or even affect change. I think some folks are hurt because they hold the market very dear to their hearts and this is a big change. I really hope it works out for the great majority of us. Give them a couple months, at least. p.s. I didn't actually get to go to the market on Saturday, so please feel free to discount everything I've said. Mon Apr 28 17:07:35 -0700 2003 91908 0 Missy P. 2 91918 What's all this bias against strollers and "yuppies w/kids". I am not a parent but I don't despise toddlers or parents with them. Would those who complain of such rather have the kids running around wildly? A kid in a stroller whose parents are considerate of other shoppers is no bother whatsover. The only thing that amazes me is that people can afford to have a kid or two and afford to live in SF! Mon Apr 28 17:10:42 -0700 2003 91814 0 Steve P 3 91952 "A kid in a stroller whose parents are considerate of other shoppers is no bother whatsover" I agree that people that know how to behave with a stroller are not a problem. I don't know if you went to the old location regularly but it would get quite packed and was quite famous for having the exact opposite of what you mention above. For some reason, between 9-11 am there were frequently a number of wild, out-of-control, sense-of-entitlement, get-out-of-my-way BITCHES pushing strollers into anybody and everyone. After several weeks in a row of getting run over or knocked into WHILE STANDING STILL, I gave up going late. If I couldn't get there by 8am, I didn't go. So I think that people are saying "yuppie" when what they really mean is "inconsiderate asshole" of which there are many with strollers at the old farmers market. Mon Apr 28 19:48:56 -0700 2003 91918 0 Pssst 4 91981 ROTFL! Hey, RM! Don't hold back. What do you REALLY think?!? Mon Apr 28 23:19:18 -0700 2003 91952 0 chowfish 3 91988 Agreed. There are rude people everywhere. The percentage with strollers is no greater than those without. What exactly is a yuppie anyway? Is it someone who goes to the Ferry Plaza Farmer's Market? Or someone who drives there? Or someone who drives there with a nice car? Talk about an overused word with no meaning whatsoever. I place it on par with Diva. Puke. Tue Apr 29 00:43:24 -0700 2003 91918 0 EastCoastWest 2 91919 What's all this bias against strollers and "yuppies w/kids". I am not a parent but I don't despise toddlers or parents with them. Would those who complain of such rather have the kids running around wildly? A kid in a stroller whose parents are considerate of other shoppers is no bother whatsover. The only thing that amazes me is that people can afford to have a kid or two and afford to live in SF! Mon Apr 28 17:10:51 -0700 2003 91814 0 Steve P 1 91933 It was different. Judgment deferred until a few more visits. A few comments: Yes, it was more crowded. I am not sure if this was because of more people, more vendors, or less room. It isn't clear that it will stay this way. Let's wait a few weeks and see what happens. It seemed there were more vendors. This is a good thing. I, too, like to make a circuit of the market to look at what is offered at what price. (Example one booth was selling raw organic almonds at $6/lb., another at $6.5 for two pounds). With the market spread between the front and back, this is now harder. Since there are more vendors and, ultimately, the market may be bigger with more choices, this may be a fair trade. Let's wait and see. I always walk to the Farmer's Market. My gripe is that my usual route over the top of Telegraph Hill is now out of the way, and I may not have the fortitude take an indirect route solely for the Saturday morning exercise. I hope the continuing pull of the Liguria Bakery will keep me honest. Parking is more difficult. Notice the world's smallest violin. This is San Francisco. Backpacks, bicycles, MUNI tickets and shoes are the SUVs of our existence. You think strollers are a pain? Want something to really work up a dander about? Did you read about the Bike Coalition demanding the right to walk their bikes up and down inside the Ferry Building? If you live in the Castro, Hayes Valley or Noe Valley, you can take MUNI directly to the market. If you live in the East Bay you can take BART. If you live in South Beach/Misson Bay you can take MUNI (N/Judah). If you live in Pacific Heights or the Marina the new location is no worse than the last. If you live in North Beach, it isn't as close as it used to be, but it's probably only an extra 15 minutes walk. It is true that the permanent stores in the Ferry Plaza building don't really contribute to the Zen of Farmer's Market, but if we are going to be honest, how well does Acme Bread, and Hog Island Oysters fit into that mold? Might these corporate folks be happier in the building? Won't this open up more space for the little guys? Isn't this a win/win? Seems so to me. I'm willing to give this experiment a while to run before I toss in the black ball. Mon Apr 28 18:29:28 -0700 2003 91750 0 Paul H 2 92166 And if you live on the top of Telegraph Hill you take a cab home. ;-) There's just no easy way to get back up there with a bunch of heavy bags--it would require a couple of bus transfers. (P.S. Hope you're tip-toeing down the stairs! My bedroom is right above them, and let me tell you it sounds like a herd of horses clomping along on Saturdays!) Wed Apr 30 19:23:18 -0700 2003 91933 0 Morgan 1 92076 I did not visit the Saturday market. But I went over to the market today to check out the Tuesday scene. Overall, I'd say I liked it better than the old Tuesday market. The main improvement is a larger number of vendors compared to the old Tuesday market. Not as many as Saturday though. All of the stalls in front of the building were open, there were none on the bay side like on Saturday. Therefore, the comparison shopping once-around that many had a problem with on Saturday is not an issue here. As far as exactly who as there, it's hard for me to say since I'm not as familiar with the vendors as some here are. There were about 12 produce vendors, including the pink lady apple guys, the mushroom guys, the asian pear guys, the tomato guys, and at least a half dozen of the farmers with assortments of vegetables. I also recall seeing Frog Hollow, Donna's Tamales, Acme, Capricous Goat Cheese, the Indian food sellers, the honey guys, the dried fruits seller, Meille (sp?) bakery. I know I'm forgetting some. The crowd was much larger than I have ever seen it on a Tuesday before. The line for Donna's was very long. The crowds are worse along the stalls that face the building since the people are pressed into a smaller area between the building's columns and the stalls. On the street side there is plenty of room on the very wide sidewalk. Just listening to people talk, it was obvious that it was the first time for many people. There were groups of 4+ coworkers going for a lunch time site seeing walk. Also lots of oohs and aahs heard inside the Ferry Building as people are visualizing what it will look like once all the stores are open. I see a Rockridge Market Hall on steroids--you decide if that's good or bad. I visit the Tuesday market about twice a month to pick up a few things midweek. I rarely ever buy more than one bag full since I have to keep it at my desk until I take MUNI home from work. The new Tuesday market should fulfill that need ever better than the old one. PARKING: One thing I did notice, at the CUESA table they had coupons for free parking at the 75 Howard Garage. Good from 6am to 6pm, Sat and Sun, until June 1. Tue Apr 29 19:05:15 -0700 2003 91750 0 nja 1 92192 went this past saturday. very impressed EXCEPT for the unecessary bottleneck created with the food sellers at the rear.the long lines create confusioin for the people who are there to produce shop,a suggestion to move the food stalls over to the side of the market separate from the produce stalls.other than that the setting is beautiful and it should be very successful. Thu May 01 16:33:50 -0700 2003 91750 0 joe