238093 Sun Jun 02 14:11:06 -0700 2002 43 19 Outer Boroughs 0 1262346 People on this board might remember that a couple months ago I posted a long series of messages asking for advice about chow in different neighborhoods, and I assembled that advice into a "Chow Walking Tours in Brooklyn and Queens" (see the attached link at the bottom). I quite enjoyed the whole project, and I once again thank chowhounds for their help. Now I am thinking of moving to New York permanently. So I have a new question, not unrelated to the old one: where should I live? Specifically, I want to live in a neighborhood that is tolerably cheap, safe, quiet, and accessible to downtown Manhattan **and** that affords such a great number and diversity of nearby chow-quality eating places that I'm never going to get bored. Maybe the ideal answer doesn't exist, but I would be very interested to research the trade-offs and best options. I'd greatly appreciate if you could include specific borough names and subway stops in your messages, since I'm still an out-of-towner. I'm posting this to the Outer Boroughs board because I assume that the answer to my question does not lie anywhere on the island of Manhattan, but please do disabuse me if I'm mistaken in that assumption. I've read the recent threads on this board, e.g., relating to Park Slope. Any help will be much appreciated, including both recommendations of particular neighborhoods and warnings against them. I'm planning a return trip to New York in early July to investigate thoroughly the feasibility of moving there, and I'd be happy to report back whatever I learn as a result of following up your suggestions. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/237686#1260204 Sun Jun 02 14:11:06 -0700 2002 0 Buford 1 1262353 I don't think any of the usual Brooklyn neighborhoods are cheap, so if you're serious about being very close to downtown Manhattan you might want to think about Hoboken or Jersey City. I believe Astoria is less expensive than the usual places in Brooklyn. It is a very quick trip to midtown. Sun Jun 02 16:29:59 -0700 2002 1262346 0 Alan Emdin 2 1262358 The Brooklyn neighborhoods, close to Manhattan, have become more expensive than those in Queens. Astoria and Long Island City are very close to Manhattan, relatively cheap and have some decent food. Woodside might also work. Sun Jun 02 17:52:07 -0700 2002 1262353 0 Capn Mac 3 1262394 I grew up and lived in Brooklyn for over 20 years. Spent 5 years in Chicago then moved back, this time to Queens, because my mom was sick, needed help, and lived there. (and moved to Portland, OR in Nov...) I had friends in Brooklyn, some in my old childhood neighborhood (Bensonhurst). I worked in Bklyn, commuting in on the G train, while living in Queens and it was an OK commute. I also had season tickets to the NY Liberty (WNBA) and it was very convenient going to and from MSG from Queens. It seems to me that, at this point, living in any convenient Brooklyn nabe to downtown Manhattan, is more expensive than most convenient places in Queens. I lived in Rego Park, which is central Queens, and it took me 15 minutes by train (which was 2 blocks away) to get into Manhattan. True, not downtown, which takes another 15-20 minutes or so...which still is not too bad and I almost always got a seat. Astoria is way closer to Manhattan, but as a previous poster said, it is a little cut off from the rest of Queens, and the transportation options (public ones) are a bit more limited. Also, the trains in Rego Park run below ground, so when you live close to the subway, it's a good thing. I grew up 2 blocks from an el train line...it's not fun, it's loud...deafening, really. I really missed "the edge" of Brooklyn by living in Queens, but I think the quality of life was better in Queens. I found a 1 BR in a high rise for about $700 in 1995 and it was huge (we bought (and then sold, in Nov.) a 2 BR co-op there, after moving from that 1 BR). It was also really convenient living in central Queens: -if you have a car, you are close to Long Island and the beaches (and the shopping malls...if you care) -if you have a car, it is also very easy to go over the Triborough or Whitestone or Throgs Neck bridges to the Bronx, Westchester and points north (whereas if you live in Bklyn, you have to drive through Queens) - making getaways to CT, MA and all of New England SOOO much easier -you are close to Bklyn and Manhattan via public transport (or car) -most of the rents are cheaper in Queens for the same kinds of neighborhoods -two of NYC's major airports are in Queens - if you travel a lot, it makes it way more convenient (and, possibly, cheaper because you have a choice) -(if school districts matter)while there are good and less good school districts in every borough, the schools and districts in Queens (esp k-8) are just a little better overall (this is a huge generalization, though...your mileage may vary) -with no traffic on the BQE (which is usually the case at night, well past rush hour) it only takes 15-20 minutes to drive between Rego Park and Downtown Brooklyn/Brooklyn Heights/Park Slope (and it is WAY easier to have a car in most neighborhoods in Queens than in any of those neighborhoods in Bklyn.) So, there you have it...I thought Brooklyn cooler and more interesting in certain ways, but Queens tops it for convenience. And there is great food everywhere, really...these boards are overflowing with rec's in both Brooklyn and Queens... Mon Jun 03 13:01:33 -0700 2002 1262358 0 Jill-O 4 1262478 Queens, why? 1-On the average safer + cleaner subways.Many of the well known Bklyn hoods are accessed via subways thatwind up in neighborhoods with a higher crime rate. An unfortuante act. Hence, the safer Queens subways. Though Billyburg is only 10 minutes from my fave alltime street, 14th Street. Ask Slyvain Slyvain about it! 2-Some 'hoods have access to the LIRR for late night returns from Manhattan or quick access to the LI beaches. 3-better values for real estate 4-While most neighborhoods in Queens do not have the "hip/cool" factor of the Brooklyn hoods, they usally are safer and more down to earth. You usually don't have the hipster better than thou thang going on in Queens. 5-Car. After, rush hour you can be @ the Fire Island ferry in about 40 minutes, upstate in about 2 hours, Jersey (to the rest of America) in about 35 minutes. 6-From areas such as Rego Park, Forest Hills, Kew Gardens, midtown is 30 minutes away at most. Forest Hills + Kew Gardens also have the LIRR as does Woodside. Some of these areas also have Express buses that are pretty good. The neighborhood around 60th Street in Queens,Woodside has the LIRR, Express bus, and express #7 train. Not to mention the entire world there for all your chowhounding needs! Here comes the disclosure statement, I was raised in Queens so I'm a little biased. I love Brooklyn, the hoods are usally prettier but...do you wanna live in a hood where everyone looks like you and played on the same college Lacrosse team or is afraid to go the neighborhood Italian pork store? Instead they go to whatever expresso bar opens up. Enough stereotypes. Just move to NYC, we accept you, Gabba Gabba Hey! Tue Jun 04 17:52:45 -0700 2002 1262394 0 Ivan Stoler 5 1262488 genau! Tue Jun 04 23:36:52 -0700 2002 1262478 0 mac 2 1262413 Downtown Jersey City has a surprising number of lovely old brownstones (as well as a lot of aluminum siding, unfortunately). Rents are reasonable, starting at about $800 for a studio or even a one-bedroom. Car theft is high, but street crime is relatively low, and the commute to Manhattan (subway, bus, or ferry) is short. There's a scattering of interesting ethnic restaurants and, increasingly, a few more ambitious (call 'em yuppie if you want) eating places, like Cafe Brand, the Hamilton Park Alehouse, or the White Star bar, to name a few. And don't forget that chowhounding Mecca, the International Foods supermarket. But if you're the kind of chowhound who wants to try a different restaurant every night, or even every weekend, you might want to look elsewhere. We moved to Jersey City from Park Slope two years ago and really love our new home, but we still miss Al Di La. Hoboken is way more gentrified and also way more expensive. Lots of restaurants, although not a lot of standouts, in my opinion. For a single person moving to the New York area, it would be probably be a more fun place to live--more nightlife, more shops, lots of 20- and 30-somethings. Why there hasn't been a "Friends" type sitcom set in Hoboken I don't know. Mon Jun 03 17:18:21 -0700 2002 1262353 0 emster 1 1262357 I live in a neighborhood that is "tolerably cheap, safe, quiet, and accessible to downtown Manhattan;" unfortunately it doesn't meet the last criteria for an abundance of chow-quality eateries. But since you're considering trade-offs you might want to take a ride on the Staten Island Ferry and take a walk in the hilly residential streets above the Ferry terminal on the Staten Island side. Sun Jun 02 17:44:22 -0700 2002 1262346 0 James 2 1262365 After reading some posts about Staten Island restaurants I found out that we have three Sri Lankan restaurants in the neighborhood (apparently "the highest density of Sri Lankans in the New York/New Jersey region is in Staten Island." ) http://www.chandrage.com/Restrn/us-si.htm I knew about the "Polish place," way excellent Polish food, but I didn't know that the bakery down the block had "the best croissants in the universe." http://www.chowhound.com/boards/outer/messages/15312.html And its not surprising to hear that the Mexican grocery across the street has good tacos since there is a large Mexican population in the neighborhood. http://www.chowhound.com/boards/outer/messages/15479.html Sun Jun 02 19:55:28 -0700 2002 1262357 0 James 1 1262360 I'll second he recommendation to "try Queens." having lived in NYC since '81, I've had the chance to sample living in three of five boroughs, and find Queens far more pleasant overall; both the chow choices (which are certainly important) and the value for housing dollar (even, dare I say it, moreso) outstrip brooklyn...and yes, I'd say your guess about Manhattan is on the money. consider woodside, sunnyside or jackson heights in your search. you'll be able to get a nice one bedroom place at a bargain price (as NYC goes) and have an easy commute as well as lots to do in the area..... Sun Jun 02 18:49:38 -0700 2002 1262346 0 david sprague 2 1262393 I second Sunnyside. It has a good mix of ethnic restaurants--Japanese, Mexican, Korean, Turkish, Chinese, Indian, and Roumanian. You would get off at either the 40th St or 46th St stop on the 7 train. However, like someone had mentioned about Astoria, I wouldn't say Sunnyside has an "edge." It's got more of a "mom and pop store" feel to the neighborhood. (Which I really appreciate--no Starbucks, lounges, or designer clothing boutiques!) Rents here are still reasonable by Manhattan or Brooklyn standards. My two-bedroom is not quite $1400 a month. The commute into Grand Central is 15-20 minutes. A commute to Tribeca takes no more than 40 minutes door to door. Mon Jun 03 12:54:11 -0700 2002 1262360 0 judibean 3 1262473 unlike tv-show new yorkers, i am not rich. i live comfortably in LIC- closer to sunnyside than to astoria. i looked all over and decided it was right for me. my bf, a longtime LESer loves the quiet. we like that it's a little desolate. but really, it depends on where you will work. i used to dread the ride from the LES to midtown in the morning. now i usually get to work in 15 minutes. in nyc, there is a perfect spot for everyone. you just need to do the legwork to find it. Tue Jun 04 17:07:28 -0700 2002 1262393 0 alice1derland 1 1262371 You might want to consider Flatbush --the section of it immediately abutting Prospect Park, roughly bounded by Flatbush, Coney Island Avenue, Prospect Park Park and Cortelyou Road. Its an ethnically diverse but heavily Black Carribean neighborhood with all the attendant food choices. Huge and beautiful 20s-era apartment buildings ranging in price from low 700 to 1100 for one/two bedrooms. Also gorgeous, old single family houses that you never imagined could exist in Brooklyn. You are walking distance to the Park but not paying Park Slope prices (and very few strollers!:-) )It lies along the Q train (stops Parkside to Cortelyou Road) Easily accessible to other Brooklyn neighborhoods. Its about 1/2 to Canal Street (Chinatown by train) and a little under an hour to midtown. Drawbacks: the neighborhood can be noisy and some blocks are a little sketchy (i.e drug traffic) -tho I've lived here for going on four years without a problem. Sun Jun 02 21:55:45 -0700 2002 1262346 0 JessicaKlonsky 1 1262389 I have lived in Astoria for two years, and I like it quite a bit. The upsides are that it is safe, some things are open very late, near Manhattan, and quite reasonable. The real downsides are that it feels a bit insular (it is not easy to get around Queens, of from Queens to Brooklyn, without a car) and that it doesn't have any edge. Brooklyn has an edge. Brooklyn is also quite a bit closer to downtown, but Queens is nearer to midtown. From a transportation standpoint, you would be best to look for a place somewhere near both the N and R lines. Any neighborhood you are considering, you should take some time to check out at night. You want to see what is open late and whether there are people out, and the noise level, and all that. I think that's the most important thing... Mon Jun 03 11:13:55 -0700 2002 1262346 0 BabarGanesh 1 1262396 you don't give us alot of information about yourself. I'll assume that you are 1. young (<30) 2. single (or at least don't have tons of kids) 3. cognizant of the types of rent you'll have to pay ANYWHERE in New York (800/month and up for just about anything). As I'm sure you know, chow happens all over New York, and it is the nooks and crannies that this board is devoted to. Also as you know, you won't find a place that fits everything on your list. What's the first to go? If you are young, I'd say give "safe and quiet" the boot in favor of cheap. If you're not, then maybe show "accessible to downtown" the door and live in Queens (beware, it helps ALOT to have a car in Queens). If I were you, I'd check out the 2nd and now maybe 3rd stops outside Manhattan on the L (hell) train. Over the last 10 years, Williamsburg (1st stop) has been litterally overrun with young people and artists looking for big, cheap places to live and work that are close to downtown Manhattan (Union Square). At first, it was the first stop on the L, now the "cheap" part is gone unless you look further out. You won't be dining at Le Cirque everynight, but if you want to look for those out of the way Carribean restaurants and little Pakistani takeouts, you'll be right there. Not too far away is a place called "Clinton Hill" which is a portion of the less inviting "Bed-Stuy" taking advantage of the now hot Fort Greene real estate market. You could try there as well.... Mon Jun 03 13:27:34 -0700 2002 1262346 0 bigskulls 1 1262398 First off, I would recommend buying a Hagstrom brand map of NYC. The maps show all the relevant neighborhoods by name, as well as street names, subways, etc. All the earlier posts are valid, but it might help put them in perspective. To meet your criteria, I would suggest looking at Boerum Hill, an oft-overlooked neighborhood, between Cobble Hill and Park Slope. The options are generally fewer (more homeowners, less rentals,) but the rents are cheaper than neighborhoods nearby. Try starting at the Atlantic Ave. subway stop and walking west, or at the F train stop at Bergen St. and walking east. It's about 10-15 min. from downtown Manhattan, has a substantial population of Middle Eastern and African restaurants nearby. You would also be equidistant from the new wave of restaurants on Smith St. and those in Park Slope. Nearby subways allow you to quickly get just about anywhere (A,C,F,G,D,Q,W,N,R,1,2,4,5) Mon Jun 03 14:13:46 -0700 2002 1262346 0 JOHN C 1 1262420 Buford, Obviously, this is a big decision, and you've already received several good recommendations with conflicting views. I live in Cobble Hill, Brooklyn. It is accessible from the F and G trains (Carroll St. stop). When you exit the train, you'll be on Smith St. Smith St. is young and yuppy and hip. If you walk one block over to Court St., you'll find that it is still yuppy, but a lot more staid. If you walk to the next two blocks, Clinton and Henry, you'll find a beautiful, tree-lined streets of brownstone and brick rowhouses. Those two blocks have a heavily Italian feel, so it's a good place to buy mozzerella and such (there's a bakery and a salumeria on my block). It's easy to walk to Atlantic Avenue, where Sahadi's, on of the good specialty stores in New York, is located. There are little bakeries, greengrocers, etc. If the F train is inconvenient, it is a short walk to downtown Brooklyn/Brooklyn Heights, where you can catch the 2,3,4,5,N and R trains. Very convenient to downtown. Although Queens does have good food, and it is cheaper than Brooklyn, there's a reason people live in Brooklyn. It is quiet, and also beautiful. In Queens, my main impressions have been hulking, monolithic apartment blocks, vinyl siding, and cheap construction. Brooklyn, even the poorer areas such as Bed-Stuy, are quite beautiful. You'll find pockets of calm and beauty in Queens, but not as much as Brooklyn (you'll also find vinyl-siding type neighborhoods in Brooklyn, such as Williamsburg). The housing prices in Carroll Gardens are not cheap, but it is quiet, accessible, and beautiful. For a cheaper alternative, I'd look at Ft. Greene and Clinton Hill. Good luck. Mon Jun 03 19:15:03 -0700 2002 1262346 0 Miss B 2 1262462 Sounds like your view of queens is from the window of a car on the LIE. Try New Lots and East NY for a sample of brooklyn architecture in "even the poorer areas". Tue Jun 04 14:43:38 -0700 2002 1262420 0 Mac 3 1262465 I wouldn't want to live there, but East New York *does* have nice housing stock. Queens is varied, as is Brooklyn. Defending the Borough of Queens is noble, but you do seem to have an axe to grind with the Borough of Kings... Tue Jun 04 15:13:02 -0700 2002 1262462 0 Zephyr 3 1262467 I've been all over Queens, primarily to Astoria, LIC, Elmhurst, Rego Park and Woodside, but also to lesser-known areas. Unlike you, I prefer cities to suburbs, and walking and subways to cars, so that means I do spend a lot of time in neighborhoods. It sounds to me as if you prefer suburbs to cities. That's your choice, but the OP seems to prefer cities, and he was the one asking for advice. Tue Jun 04 15:33:12 -0700 2002 1262462 0 Miss B 4 1262493 Don't mistake brooklyn for what life should be like in a city. Brooklyn is typical of all that is wrong with american cities: its most urban aspect is its urban decay. That you equate quality of life with suburbs shows an apathetic acceptance of the state of our cities. And gentrification is not the solution: it just pushes the problem elsewhere. So how far past GAP (the retailer or the station) does your walking take you on a regular basis? Wed Jun 05 08:54:48 -0700 2002 1262467 0 mac 5 1262503 You really need to work out that hostility. We're here to help the original poster, not to argue about the relative merits of the boroughs. I was trying to be helpful, but you seem to have some bizarre anti-borough (anti-city, really) agenda. Actually, I'd say that Brooklyn (and the closer-in parts of Queens, for that matter) stands for what is right with cities, and lacking in American cities in general: accessible public transporation, density, good walking culture, safety. The outlying parts stand for what is wrong with suburbs: car culture, low density, lack of any street culture. However, this is not the appropriate place to debate these issues. The rest of the posters are trying to help the original poster, who posted his requirements, including access to public transportation. If you do not agree with him, that is your opinion, but this is not the appropriate place to air your feelings. Take your hostility (and your ignorant personal insults) elsewhere. I believe that I speak on behalf of everyone else here. Wed Jun 05 10:29:37 -0700 2002 1262493 0 Miss B 6 1262509 We've given Buford plenty to digest in this thread. It's up to him him to sift through it all. The tone of the thread has now taken a turn that we try very, very hard to avoid on Chowhound. There hasn't been any mention of Outer Boroughs chow for a few posts now either. Let's get back to the business of food talk. This is supposed to be fun! Wed Jun 05 11:31:33 -0700 2002 1262503 2 The Chowhound Team 7 1262560 Are you telling me this has not been fun all along? Thu Jun 06 12:18:15 -0700 2002 1262509 0 mac 5 1262505 Hey Mac! What are you talking about?! Seriously. You obviously have an opinion but its starting to sound a little crank-like. Care to offer any serious commentary without the snide asides? For what its worth, I would recommend *many* parts of Brooklyn to our out-of-town friend who's looking to move. Its a great "city," entirely liveable. And its an *easy* place to have a car, in fact a car is great in Brooklyn. There are great beaches accessible most easily by car, and getting out of the city is easy if you know how to do it and what to avoid. The Gowanus, for example, is rarely necessary and easily bypassed. You need to know the streets and shortcuts - true in any big city, no? Wed Jun 05 10:58:33 -0700 2002 1262493 0 Zephyr 6 1262527 I said it elsewhere: queens is generally far safer than brooklyn and a lot less densely populated. These two factors alone add up to a better quality of life, all else being equal. It's amazing how the crime and overpopulation of brooklyn are now being spun into some kind of positive "edge". Face it, we all know brooklyn has long been one of those places people tried to move out of in search of a better life, not into. Without debating racial motives and "white flight", one of the main reasons for the exodus has been crime and overpopulation. Brooklyn has recently been rediscovered by newcomers as a less expensive alternative to manhattan. Granted, but the resulting gentrification does not negate the facts of crime and overpopulation (not yet at least). For this reason, queens offers a better quality of life. You may think I am cranking, but you have to admit many people are equally offended at the suggestion that what they perceive as positives (edge) are in fact negatives. Nobody likes to be told that the emperor has no clothes. Wed Jun 05 15:31:22 -0700 2002 1262505 0 Mac 7 1262531 "All else being equal," I would agree with you that most people would prefer a little more space and certainly less crime. But I don't think it's fair to say that Brooklyn and Queens are equal. They are very different, with positives and negatives on both sides. New York (like any large city) is a matter of compromises. It is important for each person to prioritize his or her desires vs. potential shortcomings. In your case, you have valued certain things over others (population density, having a car, etc.) But if crime and overpopulation are so important to you, why do you live in the city at all? Most likely it's because you prioritize certain things (employment opportunitues, culture, FOOD,) more highly than you do the relative peace and quiet you could find elsewhere. If you are so adamant about Queens, please elaborate, and do so without comparing Sunnyside to East New York by way of example. And I'm still waiting to hear about all your favorite restaurants.... I am going to start a new thread so we can get off the Queens / Brooklyn drama and onto a more culinary topic - instead of where should I live, where should I eat? Favorite chow neighborhoods. Wed Jun 05 16:17:06 -0700 2002 1262527 0 JOHN C 1 1262431 You should have an idea of where you will be working before you decide where to live. Queens is better for commuting to midtown, and brooklyn is better for commuting to downtown. IMO, Queens is more convenient and a better value. Brooklyn has become the "trendy" boro, thus higher rents, but the quality of life sucks. If you are going to live in Brooklyn, don't plan on having a car. Bay Ridge might be good with the express bus to downtown, but if you work in midtown, Queens is the way to go. Western Queens (Astoria/LIC/Woodside/JH) is convenient to the city and has a good mix. LIC can be a bit desolate though. North-Eastern Queens is very suburban; good for keeping a car, and the commute to midtown via the LIRR is excellent. It's convenient for travel (the airports, bridges to upstate, and beaches on LI) and also gives you the best access to the widest job market: Manhattan, Queens, Bronx, Westchester, Nasssau, and Western Suffolk (and Brooklyn if need be). Hoboken's not so bad for commuting to either midtown or downtown, but it's over-priced. Also, if you end up on the jersey side, you'll probably rarely ever make it to anywhere in NYC but Manhattan (and maybe staten island, read on.) Of course I am forgetting the Bronx and Staten Island: you should too! Staten Island is the most isolated part of the city. There's nothing to do there at night and it's a chore to go out anywhere else in the city, 'cept jersey. The Bronx is like Westchester's doormat to Manhattan. If you don't live in the Bronx or Staten Island, there's little incentive to go there, with a few exceptions for the yankees & bronx zoo. How much do you want to spend for rent? what do you do for work? where will you work? do you drive? do you like urban living or something more tranquil? Do you prefer homogenous or heterogeneous neighborhoods? any cultural preferences? are schools important? have you ever ridden the subway in august? Tue Jun 04 01:39:07 -0700 2002 1262346 0 Mac 2 1262442 Well, sorry, I have to rise to the defense of Brooklyn. The quality of life there doesn't "suck". In fact, it's pretty high, but if your idea of a high-qiality life means driving a car to work every day, well then you are in the wrong city, not borough. I lived (cheaply, in Columbia U. housing) in Manhattan for five years and then moved to Brooklyn, and I'm really, really happy there. I did look at Queens options (Astoria, for example) before making the move, and found that Astoria is just marginally less expensive than my "trendy" neighborhood of Carroll Gardens, Brooklyn, while it simply doesn't compare when it comes to restaurants, nightlife, overall atmosphere and architecture. It has its charms, for sure - but they are no longer cheap charms. And then there is the fact that for some reason, people in Queens paint all the metal parts of their building (and fence) WHITE, and they put cast-concrete lions in front of their houses. Tue Jun 04 10:01:16 -0700 2002 1262431 0 Katerina 3 1262457 Quality of life. In brooklyn the one thing you can count on is traffic: one way in, one way out - belt/gowanus pkwy (gowanus is way worse than the LIE). Funny: queens may be known for cars, but next to manhattan, brooklyn is without a doubt the boro for traffic (ok, the cross bronx sux too, but that's the bronx). In brooklyn it is also common to put a "no radio" or "no valuables" sign in your car window to deter break ins. In brooklyn it is not uncommon to search 45 minutes for a parking spot. But cars aren't everything. In brooklyn, most subway lines terminate in higher-crime neighborhoods, so even if you feel safe in your own area, riding the subway after midnight is often a concern no matter where you live. That's a fact. While queens is by no means immune to crime and poverty, riding the 7 or the LIRR is a lot better than most brooklyn subways. Waiting on the clark st. platform (arguably in brooklyn's best neighborhood) is a spooky thing. In brooklyn, even the "nice" neighborhoods have beggars (un-pc am I?). Sometimes they even knock on your window if you happen to live on the ground-floor. Sure brooklyn has nice architecture. Queens also has nice architecture: brownstones in LIC, as well as historical architecture in JH, kew gardens, forest hills, sunnyside, douglaston manor. You should get out more often. Like queens, brooklyn also has white painted metal fences with concrete lions, as well as blocks and blocks of empty lots from burnt out buildings. Or do those areas not fit into your picture of brooklyn? All the boros have their neighborhoods. Sure brooklyn has prospect park, but how safe do you feel there after midnight? Be honest. Queens is not known for a single "park" because it has so many: alley pond, cunningham, flushing meadows-corona, forest(just look at the patches of green on "the map" by MTA). Plus, queens parks don't make the news as often as prospect does for murders and rapes. It's a fact. Brooklyn has the museum and botanical garden, but realistically, how often do you think you'd go? Besides, aren't botanical gardens in all the boros? I like brooklyn, the best and worst of it. It's always fun. I was born there and my family is still there. Brooklyn can also boast a very active creativity, with areas becoming an extension of (and cheaper alternative to) the village and lower east side; hence the label "trendy". Not that there's anything wrong with that (is gentrification a bad thing?). But trust me, in deciding where to live, queens generally offers a better quality of life. In a city of umpteen million souls, less population density equals better quality of life. That's a fact: noisy neighbors, loud radios, car horns, trash cans, multi-tenant housing, long lines in all the shops, housing demands, competition for space of any kind, lack of nature, etc., etc. But of course, if you are like the many who relocate to NYC from "america", then the overcrowdedness may still be a novelty. So enjoy. Tue Jun 04 14:01:50 -0700 2002 1262442 0 Mac 4 1262530 If Brooklyn was an independent city it would be the 4th largest in the USA. Brooklyn has a tremendous diversity of neighbourhoods, from the brownstowns of Brooklyn heights, Park Slope, Carroll Gardens and Fort reen to the surburban houses and culture of Mill Basin, the carribean flatbush, to the airy lovely streets bay ridge, where an irish bar lurks on every corner, from the sea, the rides, the shows of glorious coney to the long stretch of large homes and trees that is ocean parkway, in brooklyn we have it all!! Oh and the food!!!! Just scroll down Wed Jun 05 15:41:18 -0700 2002 1262457 0 josh L. 5 1262539 First, I am not putting down Brooklyn. I think anyone who decides to live in either Brooklyn of Queens learns a lot about New York City, which those who rarely leave Manhattan don't learn. I've considered moving from Astoria to Brooklyn and may still do it. However, when I read the above comment, well I had to say: "We've got that stuff too in Queens." As far as size, Queens' population is 2,229,379, and Brooklyn's is 2,465,326, according to the office of City Planning. (They are No. 1 and No. 2.) In area, Queens is the biggest borough with 2,108.0 million square feet to Brooklyn's 1,708.3. Area wise Staten Island is slightly bigger than Brooklyn (No. 3). As for diversity, you can't get more diverse than Queens. I've heard reports that Queens has speakers of more than 130 different languages. According to the Queensborough Public Library: "Queens is the most ethnically diverse county in the U.S., with more than 40% of its residents speaking a language other than English at home." Of course, I'd bet that Kings County is one of the most diverse in the country. As far as everything else mentioned in the above post, I can tell you where to find most of that stuff in Queens. However, I am not going to debate it. I think the orignal poster had a leg up on a lot of people when he came to this Board, instead of just looking to Manhattan. I applaud that and hope you enjoy being in New York as much as I do. There is no where in the World that can compare to New York City. It is the greatest, and those of us who live and work here proved that to the World last year. Wed Jun 05 17:50:44 -0700 2002 1262530 0 Capn Mac 4 1262535 Whoa, Nellie! Not sure I need to respond to all of the above, but: - I don't drive (don't even have a driver's license), and we don't even OWN a car, so we really don't give a proverbial fig about traffic, car burglary, etc. - and no, we are NOT planning to get a car; that's why we live in NYC. - speaking of figs, I love the fig trees growing in the gardens of my neighborhood - I don't need to go into Prospect Park after midnight. Who does??? - As I said, I moved to Bklyn from Manhattan, and I moved to Manhattan from Prague, Czech Republic (Europe, ya know). I don't find the crowds a "novelty", but then again I don't find them where I live (Carrol Gardens). As to the rest - whatever, as I learned to say in America. I never said Queens was bad - I only defended Brooklyn, which is great. And our concrete-lion population is maybe a tenth of yours. Wed Jun 05 16:53:50 -0700 2002 1262457 0 Katerina 5 1262537 I absolutely adore Brooklyn, would never want to live in Queens (not that there is anything wrong with Queens. Queens has got a lot of positive things about it. No disrespect-just a personal thing.) But I have to agree that Brooklyn has about the same amount of ugly white cast-iron as Queens and quite a few concrete lions. Examples can be found in Park Slope (11th street to 18th St below 6th ave --it ain't all lovely, pristine Brownstones), Sunset Park, East Flatbush, Bushwick, Bensenhurst, East New York, Red Hook, Williamsburg, Greenpoint, Sheepshead bay, Bed-Stuy, Brighton Beach --okay, you get my point. Wed Jun 05 17:28:28 -0700 2002 1262535 0 JessicaKlonsky 6 1262558 Et tu, Brute? Ouch. Thu Jun 06 11:58:13 -0700 2002 1262537 0 Katerina 5 1262559 Subtle antiamericanism: suggesting that as an american I am ignorant of geography. Nice. Or is it a mere, not-so-subtle, demonstration of your cosmopolitanism, an attempt to establish your authoritative credentials on the matter of urban comparison? Like I said, brooklyn must definitely be a step up. Thu Jun 06 12:15:13 -0700 2002 1262535 0 mac 6 1262561 Golly, you really got me there. My attempt at establishing superiority has been nipped in the bud. But actually, a lot of people in the US do *not* know where my country is - but it really doesn't bother me. After all, if you asked people over there to locate Iowa or Alabama on a map, most would be totally lost (a point I often make back home when people take easy shots at Americans). Mine is a fairly obscure, recently renamed country of little importance in global matters (but it's very pretty); there's no reason most people should know where it is. Anyway, I am fortunate in that I am at home in both places, and so far it's been great food- and otherwise. Thu Jun 06 12:32:50 -0700 2002 1262559 0 Katerina 2 1262449 I presume that, as the poster is moving to New York City, he is planning to use public transportation for most purposes. As he asked about subways, this seems to be a reasonable conclusion. I have to disagree about the quality of life. I love the restaurants in Queens, and I appreciate many of its aspects, but I find it rather depressing, given the ugly buildings and super-blocks. The quality of life in Brooklyn certainly does not "suck," and, for me at least, it is better. This is a personal decision, however, and each person has his or her own preferences. This is why I urge the poster to walk aroudn and explore each neighborhood he's considering. I did look at Queens when I searched for an apartment, and was pleasantly surpised about the rents in Brooklyn. At any rate, rent alone doesn't make quality of life. BTW, I do have a car, and I park it on the street. I don't see why living in Queens has anything to do with whether one can afford a car or not. I certainly don't use the car to commute, a decision that, given our air quality and congestion, I don't really understand. Again, though, that's a personal decision. Tue Jun 04 11:06:43 -0700 2002 1262431 0 Miss B 3 1262453 I moved to Park Slope five years ago solely on the basis of finding an amazing two bedroom for a great price. That's how I picked my neighborhood. I didn't really have the luxury of picking a neighborhood based on its perceived qualities. But I have to say I love the quality of life. I always find a parking space for the car within a block or so, there's a great gym right down the street, lots of good restaurants, the park, friendly people, etc. I'm not trying to sway anyone to pick Brooklyn, because I'm sure Queens is equally great, but I heartily disagree with Mac. Tue Jun 04 12:54:10 -0700 2002 1262449 0 Peter Cuce 2 1262454 I will rise to the defense not only of Brooklyn, but also of SI and the Bronx! This poster clearly has opinions, and as this is a public forum all opinions are welcome. However, as helpful as driving directions may be, the original posting was not only about real estate, but about neighborhoods and their food. Access to downtown was also listed as one of the main criteria - maybe this person works from home! Queens does have its qualities, but is far from the only option. If there is a reason to eliminate Brooklyn, Staten Island, the Bronx and New Jersey as options for vibrant neighborhoods with excellent food, I would like to hear it. BTW, one reason Brooklyn has become the "trendy" borough is the proliferation of new restaurants in many of its neighborhoods. There is also, of course, the blossoming arts environment, beautiful tree-lined blocks, 19th c. architecture, a great park, etc etc Tue Jun 04 13:18:59 -0700 2002 1262431 0 JOHN C 3 1262460 yes, "a" great park. Tue Jun 04 14:22:36 -0700 2002 1262454 0 mac 4 1262469 Ever been to Fort Greene park? Yes, the city neglects it, but it's a beautiful Vaux/Olmstead space, surrounded by great brownstones. Tue Jun 04 16:08:50 -0700 2002 1262460 0 Tom Philpott 4 1262500 Actually, there are many great parks in Brooklyn, with Prospect Park being the obvious standout. My intention was not to debate the issue on the number of parks in Queens vs. Brooklyn, but to provide a counterpoint to your Midtown-centric post. Oh, and I mentioned food. There are plenty of great neighborhoods in Queens both for living and eating. All I'm trying to say is that there are great neighborhoods like that all over the city, even (gasp!) in areas like SI and the Bronx. The original posting specifically asked for proximity to downtown and culinary diversity, not for the best neighborhood to own a car. There are plenty of people that have hard feelings about what's been going on in Brooklyn over the last few years. Some are angry at being displaced by rising real estate prices, others feel jealous about being on the outside looking in. I don't know if you fit in either of these categories, it doesn't matter. But to dismiss an entire borough as unlivable because the quality of life "sucks" without explanation doesn't really make any sense, nor does it provide help to the person who may be moving to NYC. I'd be much more interested in hearing your point of view as to why Queens is a standout for restaurant diversity, markets, etc. Wed Jun 05 10:12:59 -0700 2002 1262460 0 JOHN C 1 1263247 Please don't count Manhattan out. There is a lovely and safe part of Manhattan close to Fort Tryon Park and the Cloisters, where you can still find spacious apartments in well-maintained elevator buildings for decent prices by New York standards. Washington Heights may have a bad reputation, but if you walk along Fort Washington Avenue from 181 St to the entrance of Fort Tryon Park at 193 St, you will be pleasantly surprised. The area is safe and quiet, and Fort Tryon Park is beautiful! You may even forget that you are in Manhattan, while you will still enjoy many of the advantages of living in Manhattan. Cabrini Blvd., Pinehurst Ave., Overlook Terrace, and Bennett Ave (all in Washington Heights) are also worth a look. Just stay west of Broadway! There are a few good dining options up there. Even though it is far uptown, you can get to midtown in under 20 minutes because the A train runs express and offers very fast service. You will have easy access to all of the dining and entertainment of Midtown and Downtown. Wed Jun 26 15:57:13 -0700 2002 1262346 0 Andres