23346 Fri Mar 14 16:38:28 -0800 2003 34 1 San Francisco Bay Area 0 88535 Has anyone ever been to Sakae in Burlingame? I heard it was good but expensive. Just wanted to get the chowhound opinion before i blow my money on it. -thanks Fri Mar 14 16:38:28 -0800 2003 0 grow power 1 88552 I used to frequent Sakae a couple of years ago. I actually find the food to be very good, the sushi fresh and varied, and the side dishes to be decent to very good. The service is somewhat brisk and not very welcoming, but a lot has to do with the high number of guests waiting for seating and how busy they are at peak hours. The ambiance is that of a neighborhood Japanese sushi bar that, over the years, has become popular and, thus, lost some of its homey charm. Overall, it's one of the better Burlingame/San Mateo Japanese Sushi places, if you are willing to wait (make sure it's not raining as you have to wait outside) or to eat at unpopular times... Fri Mar 14 19:17:07 -0800 2003 88535 0 NipponFan 1 88553 Sakae has very good sushi but it is definetely expensive. If you want to eat sushi and small dishes, go before 7, sit at the sushi bar, you'll get more attention. They only take sushi bar reservation for "non regular clients" before 7. there are lots and lots of cold premium sakes. if you're interested in that, let me know. I can give my two cents on the sake as well. I recommend ordering from the board that's on the wall. I think the Uni tempura (fried sea urchin wrapped in shiso) is very good. They also claim to be the only place with Seki Saba in the bay area (Sawa sushi also said it is the only place as well). Fri Mar 14 19:29:42 -0800 2003 88535 0 xiong xiong 2 88555 here's the website Link: http://www.sakaesushi.com/ Fri Mar 14 19:31:49 -0800 2003 88553 0 vn 2 88556 here's the website Link: http://www.sakaesushi.com/ Fri Mar 14 19:31:49 -0800 2003 88553 0 vn 2 88593 Thanks for the tips on ordering. I've had uni tempura at Yabu in LA, and had wondered if anyone made it up here. Please tell us more about your sake favorites when you get a chance. Sat Mar 15 05:45:10 -0800 2003 88553 0 Melanie Wong 3 88701 Hakkesan is my old favorite. I also had both the Kobuta manju and heikiju at Sakae. Unfortunately, the Kobuta Manju was actually not as good as Heikiju - found it less vibrant than the Heikiju. The Kobuta Manju I had at Sakae is not what I thought it should be. I suspect that when I had it at Sakae, it was stale. (Maybe not as many people order it because of the price?) Seishin is also very good. Probably the best Nikata I have had. Very clean in taste with nice bouquet. The other sake I had at Sakae is Juyondai (not from Nikata) - it's got more bite than I like. Obviously, I prefer sake from the Nikata region. They almost always have light floral bouquet, very clean finish, without being super dry or harsh. So if I didn't like any other sakes from other region, it may just be a matter of preference and does not necessary reflect the quality of the sake. Mon Mar 17 13:18:10 -0800 2003 88593 0 xiong xiong 4 88765 Thanks for the great tips on sake, but I believe you got a few of the names slightly wrong. For the benefit of other readers: Hakkesan = Hakkaizan Kobuta = Kubota heikiju = hekijuu Nikata = Niigata I agree with your comments about Niigata sake, though it is not my personal favorite. Niigata is rightly proud of their sake tradition, but they are strict perfectionists, so that while the sakes are light and smooth and perfectly balanced, they are a bit lacking in character and personality when compared with sakes from other regions in Japan. Sake from Niigata is like beer from Germany -- generally recognized as definitive, but some of us like Belgian beer and Yamagata sake. As you said, not a comment on quality, but on personal taste. Diverse choices are wonderful! kanpai Tue Mar 18 09:10:41 -0800 2003 88701 0 Bryan Harrell 5 88794 always open to trying other sakes ... do you think juyondai is a good example of yamagata sakes? Tue Mar 18 13:43:27 -0800 2003 88765 0 xiong xiong 6 88826 There are various varieties of Juyondai, but I am not sure which ones are exported to the U.S. Do you remember the type of sake? All types of Juyondai I've had are certainly good -- but somehow reminds me of Niigata sake. Very refined, polite. Think of a good, unwooded Chardonnay. The other Yamagata sakes that I like, usually in the junmaishu grade, are heavy but rather dry, and have rich, complex flavors and a fair dose of acidity. Think of a funky old vine Zinfandel. The other thing about having sake in the U.S. is that it is not always fresh. It should be consumed within, say, a week of being opened, and should always be stored in a refrigerator. Unfortunately, most places in the U.S. take a different approach. I have only been to Sakae once, and I was concentrating on the (great!) sushi, so I can't remember how they stored the sake. But chances are they do it right, although expecting Japanese people to always know something about sake (beyond the mass-produced stuff) is like expecting Americans to always know something about microbrew or good small-producer wine. Generally, most Japanese people who operate restaurants and sushi bars know very little about the kind of sake we are talking about. Therefore, when you find someone who DOES, be sure to give them a lot of business - they deserve it. Tue Mar 18 18:13:11 -0800 2003 88794 0 Bryan Harrell 6 88827 There are various varieties of Juyondai, but I am not sure which ones are exported to the U.S. Do you remember the type of sake? All types of Juyondai I've had are certainly good -- but somehow reminds me of Niigata sake. Very refined, polite. Think of a good, unwooded Chardonnay. The other Yamagata sakes that I like, usually in the junmaishu grade, are heavy but rather dry, and have rich, complex flavors and a fair dose of acidity. Think of a funky old vine Zinfandel. The other thing about having sake in the U.S. is that it is not always fresh. It should be consumed within, say, a week of being opened, and should always be stored in a refrigerator. Unfortunately, most places in the U.S. take a different approach. I have only been to Sakae once, and I was concentrating on the (great!) sushi, so I can't remember how they stored the sake. But chances are they do it right, although expecting Japanese people to always know something about sake (beyond the mass-produced stuff) is like expecting Americans to always know something about microbrew or good small-producer wine. Generally, most Japanese people who operate restaurants and sushi bars know very little about the kind of sake we are talking about. Therefore, when you find someone who DOES, be sure to give them a lot of business - they deserve it. Tue Mar 18 18:13:11 -0800 2003 88794 0 Bryan Harrell 6 88940 After replying about Juyondai last night (Tokyo time) I realized that I couldn't exactly remember the last time I had it. So tonight I went to my local sake treasure palace (Sasagin in Tokyo -- one of the best five places in the world for sake, I believe) to taste it again. Tonight they had three varieties of Juyondai and I had the most deluxe version, an unpasteurized junmai ginjo, and, to borrow chibi's wonderful expression, I recalibrated my appraisal. Yes, it is truly a Yamagata sake, and my previous comparison with a Niigata sake only holds true for the refinement and balance, which is remarkably Niigata-esque, though I have to say that the body ( and resulting sweetness ) is much too "large" to put it into the Niigata category. So think of a size 12 in a size 9 dress, if I may. Still, there was that characteristic Yamagata "largesse" of flavor and even some (but not a lot) of their wonderful earthy funkiness, so I might have to conclude that the higher grades of Junyondai are a perfect marriage of Niigata refinement and Yamagata personality and character. All of this means that Juyondai is one helluva sake, covering some pretty important bases. While it is still not one of my most favorites, it is one I can highly recommend as being a superb example of small-producer craft sake. That you can drink it in California is a miracle, so enjoy. At least you are not drinking the sake equivalent of big^corporate supermarket beer, which most U.S. people unknowingly mistake for an Authentic Japanese Experience. Please do let me know what you think of the Juyondai you are drinking over there at Sakae. I usually spend June-July-August in SF (mostly) so it will be a few months before I can go over for myself and taste what you are tasting. And thanks again for bringing up this topic -- it IS one of my most favorite. Thu Mar 20 11:14:43 -0800 2003 88794 0 Bryan Harrell 7 88968 It sounds like I need to catch the next plane to Japan... I haven't been there since last year.... There was only one Juyondai at Sakae so I did not noticed which ones I had. It's quite apt that you compared Niigata sakes to unoaked chardonnay. Although I wouldn't say I prefer unoaked chardonnay, but I usually prefer lightly oaked ones much more - More drinkable. I don't remember Juyondai being as supple as a zinfandel. Perhaps you're referring to the more pronounced characteristics then....? by the way, a friend recommend that I try Hatsumago next time... any thoughts? Sorry i can't write any more notes on Juyondai as it also has been a while since I had it.... Thu Mar 20 22:34:56 -0800 2003 88940 0 xiong xiong 8 89010 Yes, I am referring to the more pronounced characteristics. Yamagata sake is sort of like Niigata sake with the volume turned up, but add some funkiness and a bit of unusual flavors. Niigata sake brewers take care to avoid these. Compared to wine, ALL sake is supple, in my opinion. Hatsumago? Quite good, as I remember. I haven't had it in about six months, though. Your mention of catching the next plane to Japan is not so unreasonable if you are into the best sake. Having wine or Belgian beer here in Tokyo really isn't that different from having it in SF. (I spend summers in SF, but the rest of the year in Tokyo.) However, there is an enormous difference between having sake in SF and having it in Tokyo. In SF the good stuff is often very expensive, and almost always past its prime. Much of this has to do with not understanding that the sake should be kept refrigerated, and should be consumed within a few months of bottling. On large 1.8 liter bottles, the bottling date is usually in the left or right bottom corner of the front label, but usually the year is in the Japanese system (2003 is year 15 of the current Emperor's reign), and the order is Year-Month-Day. So if you see something that is 13-02-14, it means it was bottled on Feb.14, 2001 -- way too old enough to be good UNLESS it is indicated as Ko-Shu (aged sake), which is an acquired taste anyway. Right now, if you see a date that begins with 15, then by all means try it because it is likely to be VERY fresh for the average in SF. Prices? In my favorite place in Tokyo, the most expensive is never more than $7 a shot. In SF, $20 a shot for premium sake is not unusual, but certainly more than it's worth, in my opinion. Finally, you can really learn a lot about sake in very little time by visiting John Gauntner's Sake World site. Check it out -- your time spent there will save you money when you start ordering sake in a restaurant or sushi bar. Often times, famous overrated stuff is priced way too high. Claimer: John Gaunter is the best sake writer in the English language. Disclaimer: John Gaunter is a very good friend of mine. Link: http://www.sake-world.com Fri Mar 21 22:26:31 -0800 2003 88968 0 Bryan Harrell 9 89020 This has been an interesting and informative discussion. At the tasting that Rochelle organized a couple weeks ago, we were clued into the "15" bottling date code by the instructor. He also said that some bottlers will use 03, meaning 2003. The importer who presented the tasting had the same complaint about poor storage and handling conditions ruining most of the sakes we can buy locally. His company actually audits its customers storage conditions, spot checks for stale stock, and will only sell a one month supply at a time to guarantee freshness. After the tasting I chatted with him about his favorite kitchens among his customers and hope to check them out soon. I really hope that someone who attended the sake tasting will post some notes. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/23119#87229 Sat Mar 22 04:33:11 -0800 2003 89010 0 Melanie Wong 10 89033 Melanie, thanks for this info! I would really like to know 1) the places in SF that the importer recommends (or "suggests") that do the all-important job of properly caring for the sake, and 2) the name of the importer. Of course, I just want to know for my own information since when I am in SF during the summer I will ALWAYS be asked where to go for "real" Japanese food (not too hard) and "real" Japanese craft sake (few and far between). But I don't NEED to know, if this is confidential. Bryan Sat Mar 22 06:19:22 -0800 2003 89020 0 Bryan Harrell 11 89035 Two of the places he mentioned for good sake were: Sushi Ran in Sausalito and Ozumo in SF. Hatcho in San Jose was also mentioned. Sat Mar 22 11:09:43 -0800 2003 89033 0 Paul H 11 89036 Two of the places he mentioned for good sake were: Sushi Ran in Sausalito and Ozumo in SF. Hatcho in San Jose was also mentioned. Sat Mar 22 11:09:43 -0800 2003 89033 0 Paul H 11 89045 Not confidential but sensitive, as it is touchy for a supplier to pick favorites among one's customers. That's why I didn't name them. Per Rochelle's post which I linked, the importer is Seio Shimada of World Sake Imports. Sat Mar 22 14:45:58 -0800 2003 89033 0 Melanie Wong 11 89046 Not confidential but sensitive, as it is touchy for a supplier to pick favorites among one's customers. That's why I didn't name them. Per Rochelle's post which I linked, the importer is Seio Shimada of World Sake Imports. Sat Mar 22 14:45:58 -0800 2003 89033 0 Melanie Wong 10 89034 Melanie, thanks for this info! I would really like to know 1) the places in SF that the importer recommends (or "suggests") that do the all-important job of properly caring for the sake, and 2) the name of the importer. Of course, I just want to know for my own information since when I am in SF during the summer I will ALWAYS be asked where to go for "real" Japanese food (not too hard) and "real" Japanese craft sake (few and far between). But I don't NEED to know, if this is confidential. Bryan Sat Mar 22 06:19:22 -0800 2003 89020 0 Bryan Harrell 10 89097 I just posted my tasting notes (ok, actually lots of it was just the information given us, which was much more informative than my notes!) on the general board, linked below. Anyone else want to comment? Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/292282#1594829 Sun Mar 23 16:24:26 -0800 2003 89020 0 Celery 11 89123 Thanks for posting, Celery. Is it a chowdown if we only drink and don't eat anything? (g) Mon Mar 24 02:08:48 -0800 2003 89097 0 Melanie Wong 11 89124 Thanks for posting, Celery. Is it a chowdown if we only drink and don't eat anything? (g) Mon Mar 24 02:08:48 -0800 2003 89097 0 Melanie Wong 10 89098 I just posted my tasting notes (ok, actually lots of it was just the information given us, which was much more informative than my notes!) on the general board, linked below. Anyone else want to comment? Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/292282#1594829 Sun Mar 23 16:24:26 -0800 2003 89020 0 Celery 9 89021 This has been an interesting and informative discussion. At the tasting that Rochelle organized a couple weeks ago, we were clued into the "15" bottling date code by the instructor. He also said that some bottlers will use 03, meaning 2003. The importer who presented the tasting had the same complaint about poor storage and handling conditions ruining most of the sakes we can buy locally. His company actually audits its customers storage conditions, spot checks for stale stock, and will only sell a one month supply at a time to guarantee freshness. After the tasting I chatted with him about his favorite kitchens among his customers and hope to check them out soon. I really hope that someone who attended the sake tasting will post some notes. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/23119#87229 Sat Mar 22 04:33:11 -0800 2003 89010 0 Melanie Wong 8 89011 Yes, I am referring to the more pronounced characteristics. Yamagata sake is sort of like Niigata sake with the volume turned up, but add some funkiness and a bit of unusual flavors. Niigata sake brewers take care to avoid these. Compared to wine, ALL sake is supple, in my opinion. Hatsumago? Quite good, as I remember. I haven't had it in about six months, though. Your mention of catching the next plane to Japan is not so unreasonable if you are into the best sake. Having wine or Belgian beer here in Tokyo really isn't that different from having it in SF. (I spend summers in SF, but the rest of the year in Tokyo.) However, there is an enormous difference between having sake in SF and having it in Tokyo. In SF the good stuff is often very expensive, and almost always past its prime. Much of this has to do with not understanding that the sake should be kept refrigerated, and should be consumed within a few months of bottling. On large 1.8 liter bottles, the bottling date is usually in the left or right bottom corner of the front label, but usually the year is in the Japanese system (2003 is year 15 of the current Emperor's reign), and the order is Year-Month-Day. So if you see something that is 13-02-14, it means it was bottled on Feb.14, 2001 -- way too old enough to be good UNLESS it is indicated as Ko-Shu (aged sake), which is an acquired taste anyway. Right now, if you see a date that begins with 15, then by all means try it because it is likely to be VERY fresh for the average in SF. Prices? In my favorite place in Tokyo, the most expensive is never more than $7 a shot. In SF, $20 a shot for premium sake is not unusual, but certainly more than it's worth, in my opinion. Finally, you can really learn a lot about sake in very little time by visiting John Gauntner's Sake World site. Check it out -- your time spent there will save you money when you start ordering sake in a restaurant or sushi bar. Often times, famous overrated stuff is priced way too high. Claimer: John Gaunter is the best sake writer in the English language. Disclaimer: John Gaunter is a very good friend of mine. Link: http://www.sake-world.com Fri Mar 21 22:26:31 -0800 2003 88968 0 Bryan Harrell 7 88969 It sounds like I need to catch the next plane to Japan... I haven't been there since last year.... There was only one Juyondai at Sakae so I did not noticed which ones I had. It's quite apt that you compared Niigata sakes to unoaked chardonnay. Although I wouldn't say I prefer unoaked chardonnay, but I usually prefer lightly oaked ones much more - More drinkable. I don't remember Juyondai being as supple as a zinfandel. Perhaps you're referring to the more pronounced characteristics then....? by the way, a friend recommend that I try Hatsumago next time... any thoughts? Sorry i can't write any more notes on Juyondai as it also has been a while since I had it.... Thu Mar 20 22:34:56 -0800 2003 88940 0 xiong xiong 6 88941 After replying about Juyondai last night (Tokyo time) I realized that I couldn't exactly remember the last time I had it. So tonight I went to my local sake treasure palace (Sasagin in Tokyo -- one of the best five places in the world for sake, I believe) to taste it again. Tonight they had three varieties of Juyondai and I had the most deluxe version, an unpasteurized junmai ginjo, and, to borrow chibi's wonderful expression, I recalibrated my appraisal. Yes, it is truly a Yamagata sake, and my previous comparison with a Niigata sake only holds true for the refinement and balance, which is remarkably Niigata-esque, though I have to say that the body ( and resulting sweetness ) is much too "large" to put it into the Niigata category. So think of a size 12 in a size 9 dress, if I may. Still, there was that characteristic Yamagata "largesse" of flavor and even some (but not a lot) of their wonderful earthy funkiness, so I might have to conclude that the higher grades of Junyondai are a perfect marriage of Niigata refinement and Yamagata personality and character. All of this means that Juyondai is one helluva sake, covering some pretty important bases. While it is still not one of my most favorites, it is one I can highly recommend as being a superb example of small-producer craft sake. That you can drink it in California is a miracle, so enjoy. At least you are not drinking the sake equivalent of big^corporate supermarket beer, which most U.S. people unknowingly mistake for an Authentic Japanese Experience. Please do let me know what you think of the Juyondai you are drinking over there at Sakae. I usually spend June-July-August in SF (mostly) so it will be a few months before I can go over for myself and taste what you are tasting. And thanks again for bringing up this topic -- it IS one of my most favorite. Thu Mar 20 11:14:43 -0800 2003 88794 0 Bryan Harrell 5 88795 always open to trying other sakes ... do you think juyondai is a good example of yamagata sakes? Tue Mar 18 13:43:27 -0800 2003 88765 0 xiong xiong 4 88766 Thanks for the great tips on sake, but I believe you got a few of the names slightly wrong. For the benefit of other readers: Hakkesan = Hakkaizan Kobuta = Kubota heikiju = hekijuu Nikata = Niigata I agree with your comments about Niigata sake, though it is not my personal favorite. Niigata is rightly proud of their sake tradition, but they are strict perfectionists, so that while the sakes are light and smooth and perfectly balanced, they are a bit lacking in character and personality when compared with sakes from other regions in Japan. Sake from Niigata is like beer from Germany -- generally recognized as definitive, but some of us like Belgian beer and Yamagata sake. As you said, not a comment on quality, but on personal taste. Diverse choices are wonderful! kanpai Tue Mar 18 09:10:41 -0800 2003 88701 0 Bryan Harrell 3 88702 Hakkesan is my old favorite. I also had both the Kobuta manju and heikiju at Sakae. Unfortunately, the Kobuta Manju was actually not as good as Heikiju - found it less vibrant than the Heikiju. The Kobuta Manju I had at Sakae is not what I thought it should be. I suspect that when I had it at Sakae, it was stale. (Maybe not as many people order it because of the price?) Seishin is also very good. Probably the best Nikata I have had. Very clean in taste with nice bouquet. The other sake I had at Sakae is Juyondai (not from Nikata) - it's got more bite than I like. Obviously, I prefer sake from the Nikata region. They almost always have light floral bouquet, very clean finish, without being super dry or harsh. So if I didn't like any other sakes from other region, it may just be a matter of preference and does not necessary reflect the quality of the sake. Mon Mar 17 13:18:10 -0800 2003 88593 0 xiong xiong 2 88594 Thanks for the tips on ordering. I've had uni tempura at Yabu in LA, and had wondered if anyone made it up here. Please tell us more about your sake favorites when you get a chance. Sat Mar 15 05:45:10 -0800 2003 88553 0 Melanie Wong 1 88554 Sakae has very good sushi but it is definetely expensive. If you want to eat sushi and small dishes, go before 7, sit at the sushi bar, you'll get more attention. They only take sushi bar reservation for "non regular clients" before 7. there are lots and lots of cold premium sakes. if you're interested in that, let me know. I can give my two cents on the sake as well. I recommend ordering from the board that's on the wall. I think the Uni tempura (fried sea urchin wrapped in shiso) is very good. They also claim to be the only place with Seki Saba in the bay area (Sawa sushi also said it is the only place as well). Fri Mar 14 19:29:42 -0800 2003 88535 0 xiong xiong 1 88604 I think the specials can be exceptional. Try the whole scallop and/or the sweet jumbo shrimp. The sushi chef makes one or two other dishes out of the 'nasty bits' that are really unique along with serving up sashimi from the meat part of the animal. If you get him talking he may let you taste some sake for free. caveat: I haven't been in a while. Sat Mar 15 13:28:05 -0800 2003 88535 0 Bung