22785 Mon Jan 27 15:19:09 -0800 2003 16 1 San Francisco Bay Area 0 85042 I am puzzled by one thing with this board. I was cautioned by a friend not to mention to a restaurant I was considering eat at (to try their DAT offering) about the so-far negative reviews it had been getting here. Subsequently, as the promotion winds down, and more reports come in, the negative far outweigh the positive ones. Which got me thinking: shouldn’t the restaurants, the SF Convention and Visitors Bureau be made aware of the results of their promotion thus far? Don’t we owe it to ourselves, the community in general, this area that we live and love in, call our home, our pockets, to let the other side know? I mean, we’ve spilled our, well, at least, stomachs, souls and quills into sharing our experiences re DAT with each other, so why not with the institutions and forces that are written about? Would it not result in a better product? Like any cycle that needs closure: if you don’t communicate, then how can something be fixed or improved? If we just commiserate w/ each other and wallow in our unhappiness, and keep this as a secret coven, then I think, ultimately, we all lose. Without feedback, then how can they improve for the next go-around? Your thoughts? Mon Jan 27 15:19:09 -0800 2003 0 Myles 1 85053 Absolutely. Write letters to the restaurants, tell your friends in the biz, whatever it takes to get the word out. Also, many restaurant owners/managers lurk here, so "the word" is probably getting out more than you think. Be warned, though, that Chowhound does have the rep as being populated by "food nerds" who, for better or worse, are reviewer-wannabees and extremely obsessive and picky. So managers/owners may take Chowhound reports with a grain of salt. Now, don't jump on me! I personally think being obsessive about food is great. I'm just passing along what I picked up during my time as part of the food press. Mon Jan 27 16:47:27 -0800 2003 85042 0 dixieday 1 85055 Absolutely. Write letters to the restaurants, tell your friends in the biz, whatever it takes to get the word out. Also, many restaurant owners/managers lurk here, so "the word" is probably getting out more than you think. Be warned, though, that Chowhound does have the rep as being populated by "food nerds" who, for better or worse, are reviewer-wannabees and extremely obsessive and picky. So managers/owners may take Chowhound reports with a grain of salt. Now, don't jump on me! I personally think being obsessive about food is great. I'm just passing along what I picked up during my time as part of the food press. Mon Jan 27 16:52:34 -0800 2003 85042 0 dixieday 1 85095 I think you can rest easy that restaurants, the SF Convention and Visitors Bureau, et al, are capable of measuring response perfectly well on their own behalf. This might include such data as you do not have access to, including profitability, or positive feedback most likely not posted here. Your friend was right to guide you. It is not going to help you in your own experience at a restaurant if you begin by talking of friends' (esp your 'close internet friends') negative experiences. I would skip that discussion with mgmt/servers and just hope for my own good time, or else not go. My real friends, vs internet friends, response has been mostly positive. Tue Jan 28 06:22:56 -0800 2003 85042 0 Surprise Party 2 85133 I wasn't going to chime in just to say ditto to Dixieday, but since we now have a contrary opinion, I will. Without being rude about it, I think restaurants and the managers of the DAT promotion (SF Convention and Visitors Bureau) need to know about people's problems with it. There are lots of ways to let the restaurant know, if one so desires, without engaging in a face to face confrontation (especially before dinner!). There's been a big shift in the tone of reports about DAT from last year to this year. Last year the overall tone was quite positive, with some negative reports mixed in. There were some complaints about One Market, the owner responded on the list, and fixed the problem. This year the tone has been strongly negative. Maybe we've all suddently gotten much crankier and (food) nerdier, but I doubt it. The pattern suggests to me that something actually happened that the restaurants would want to look at. For myself, I'd say that I aspire to being a food nerd rather than claim to be one! There is some obsessiveness on this list (as I suspect, on any list about a single topic) but there's a tremendous amount of enthusiam, exploration, creativity. The idea that we're just hyper-critical won't stand up to a reading of a few days' posts. Wed Jan 29 00:06:24 -0800 2003 85095 0 Nathan Landau 3 85140 Ir is not my responsibility to keep a restuarant in business. I would not give a restuarant feedback on their DAT menu. Primarily because I don't know the point of the promotion. If the point was to fill restaurants during a slow business month, then the promotion was a success. It seems quite a few people also supplemented they DAT menus upping the restaurants take. If the point was to garner repeat business, some succeeded and some didn't. I know from my last year DAT experience at Farralon, I've permanently crossed it off my list. I didn't feel compelled to tell them that. As to what the "professionals" think of posters, it is irrelevant. If a restaurant gets slammed, I am sure that they would think chowhound is picky. Unlike reviewer's, we actually have to pay for our food. There's no freebies here, so yes, I'm going to be upset if a restaurant doesn't give me a good bang for my buck. I have learned quite a lot more about food and restaurants on Chowhound than in any review. There are posters who write with a passion and knowlege of food and it doesn't necessarily have to be anyone with a great command of the English language. There is a real beauty to some of the posts as well. I am not remembering this correctly but there was one post about ducks hanging in a window where the poster said something like the bronzed duck "seemed to be smiling slyly" (I know I got that wrong, but the original was just beautiful.) The way one poster wrote about those soup filled xlb made me almost feel like I was biting into one and enjoying the rich broth. So if the pro reviewers chalk up the posters as frustrated reviewers, to quote Jimmy Stuwart in Harvey "It's envy, my dear". You need to do what works for your own tastes. If you are more in sync with the tastes of your real friends rather than your internet friends, then it's silly to ignore the advice of your tribe. Some of the posters have tastes simiiar to mine, so I like to see what they do or don't like in the way of food. I also like to get educated about how to eat and appriciate food that may be outside my own personal experience. I know the appeal of chicken feet or pigs ears. I will eat those items knowing what to expect and appreciate. On my own, I might just go yuck and miss out on some tasty treats. So, given all that, I can't say what a restaurant wants out of DAT. I would think the smart ones would want repeat business. If business drops drastically after the promotion, well, if the restaurant is smart, they'll figure it out. Wed Jan 29 01:42:57 -0800 2003 85133 0 Stanley Stephan 4 85142 No matter how Chowhounds feel, I hope they have this DAT promotion next year. I have had mostly positive experiences so far, including last year. Wed Jan 29 11:40:20 -0800 2003 85140 0 Russ Francis 4 85325 It is true that most (if not all)restaurants' hope that they will benefit from repeat business from the DAT program. The reality is that only a very small percentage of DAT customers will respond in this fashion. Statistics support this. It is the credit card company underwriting the program that benefits the most. Each time a DAT customer pays with the appropriate card, the credit card company adds to their data base of info on spending patterns and who does what. (The Safeway Club Card syndrome) One of the more vexing aspects of the program is how so many of the DAT clientele order only the DAT dinner, nothing else and then just water or tea for their beverage. (not to mention those that actually 'split' their DAT dinner, sigh). For many restaurantuers this is the low point of the program. It is not the reason they are doing what they are doing. Will these customers return? We think they will not. They will be too busy looking for the next bargain meal. Fri Jan 31 14:14:04 -0800 2003 85140 0 runningman 2 85147 To Surpise Party: I sort of think I know who you are, but as somebody said it is irrelevant. And I don't really get the point of your post. Nobody is/was being slammed for the purpose of slamming. I was merely putting out a feeler there since I'm sort of new here, and still consider myself a guest, and am not entirely sure of the veterans/ webmasters/mistresses' (sounds very S&M, doesn't it?) overall intentions and parameters. And yes, certainly, we may not have access to other data and other sites, etc. But that is not the point of my post. By the same token, you're not entirely sure of how persuasive or influential these posts are...re the influence of good/bad reviews, professional or not, are you? I was merely casting a net to try to be helpful for the overall good; to try to turn negative experiences into something positive. I know the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but not for lack of trying. If my intent was misconstrued, then c'est la vie. Wed Jan 29 13:17:11 -0800 2003 85095 0 Myles/Tea Party 3 85159 Welcome, Myles! I hope you'll stop feeling like a guest -- everyone is welcome at chowhound, and every regular was once a newbie. I think your original post was appropriate and thought-provoking. The fact is that many restaurants participating in DAT probably have different reasons for doing so. Some of them probably only care that their tables are filled during this slow time. Others probably do want to bring in people who've never eaten there and encourage them to be repeat customers. Some of them probably were pressured to participate by the organizers and don't really care about the promotion at all. Some of them don't care what chowhounds think. But as someone pointed out, last year One Market not only responded to bad reports of DAT experiences there, this year they've made some changes and now have received some of the most positive DAT reports. Clearly some restaurants (even high-profile, well-established ones) do care about the feedback they see on chowhound. Wed Jan 29 16:12:49 -0800 2003 85147 0 Ruth Lafler 4 85238 Ruth Can you refresh my memory on the bad experiences at One Market last year (and what changes they made)? Thanks Thu Jan 30 12:57:36 -0800 2003 85159 0 Marcus Camby 5 85241 Hi Marcus - I was actually the one who posted about my DAT experience there last year, and I've linked the post below. Larry Bouchard quickly responded to the posting, and that's the reason I've been back there for several dinners in the last year. I'm actually really anxious to try DAT there this year, but sadly it looks like I'm not going to get the chance! Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/18482#58627 Thu Jan 30 13:46:59 -0800 2003 85238 0 Fatemeh 6 85283 Thanks for the post from last year, Fatemeh. I went to One Market last week for DAT and am happy to report that my experience went well without any major hitches. The food was good and my server (a petite brunette with a ponytail if you happen to sit in her section) was top notch. She recommended a nice Pinot for my table and was very professional (but cordial and accomodating also). She offered to let us choose our dessert after we finished our entrees. If I had to make one complaint, here it is: I also brought an older bottle of red wine and the hostess offered to take it to the table for me which was very nice of her. However, she took the bottle and put it under her arm (sideways) so now all the sediment is floating around. Perhaps it was my fault for not telling her to keep it vertical (the way I handed it to her), but I would think the staff at a high-end establishment would know the protocol of handling wine. But it wasn't that big a deal to ruin my dinner. :) Thu Jan 30 20:51:05 -0800 2003 85241 0 Marcus Camby 7 85335 Hey, "Marcus Camby." While I enjoy spotting your little name jokes, it would nice if you would do both your fellow chowhounds and the site the courtesy of following the site's guidelines and picking *one* handle and sticking with it. After all, a comment is only as useful as the reputation and track record built by the poster. It's very hard to give you any credit when I'm never sure if "Marcus Camby" is also "Brad Faxon" and all the other athlete names someone has used in the past months, plus some of the other celebrity names that pop in. Thanks for your consideration. Fri Jan 31 15:15:02 -0800 2003 85283 0 Ruth Lafler 2 85361 Overall, I was quite satisified with out DAT experiences. The best were Seasons, in the new Four Seasons on Market St. A fine meal, marvelous atmosphere. Bacar offered the best selection on the DAT menu. Also tried Le Colonial (OK), XYZ for lunch (so-so) and Butterfly. Never felt patronized or shunned because we were DAT diners, and every place except Butterfly (first week of the promotion, so maybe the server just didn't know) offered the DAT menu as an option without asking. Fri Jan 31 19:02:57 -0800 2003 85095 0 Dave 1 85183 in conclusion I would say my thoughts after reading posts about it that I think it is a good thing...I posted a similar question a while back so its somewhat redundant but at least it gets people talking and thinking about the really good restaurants...and people who either thought they wouldnt or couldnt go to the finer establishments can and do...maybe its not always the best experience for everyone always hey but what is...and it does get more opinions out there and here...I say voice your opinion anyway you see fit...but keep Dine About Town around....I had a good experience at Jiannas and so have others at other places...ones who didnt hopefully will improve next year Wed Jan 29 18:58:34 -0800 2003 85042 0 jonnygo 1 85211 Generally very positive. I tried 3 restaurants that I have wanted to try for a long time: Aqua, Boulevard, and Scala's. I had the DAT menu for dinner at Scala's and was quite pleased. At Aqua I went for lunch but wasn't that exited about the DAT menu so went for the 5-course tasting menu at $40 (I wonder if they try to get people to switch by offering less enticing items on the DAT menu). I loved 4 out of 5 of the courses. At Boulevard I had the DAT lunch and was amazed. I would definately go back to all the 3 restaurants I tried, so I would think that the DAT program is good for the restaurants as it exposes more people to their establishment. I also returned to Sam's Grill and Harris' this month but couldn't bring myself to order from the DAT menu as there were better offerings on the regular menu that I couldn't pass up. In any case, I would have visited those restaurants regardless of the DAT program. Wed Jan 29 23:14:58 -0800 2003 85042 0 Dean Curtis