22420 Tue Dec 24 11:02:52 -0800 2002 12 1 San Francisco Bay Area 0 83028 Hi. I'm visiting from DC and have a reservation at La Folie in a few days. Based on the reviews I've read on this board, it certainly seems like I'll have a meal to enjoy and remember. That said, I'm concerned about not ordering a bottle of wine -- which seems to be the norm when people eat at these types of places -- since my dining companion is Muslim and cannot drink. I'm may not even want to drink at all since my friend will not. Does anyone have experience with situations where no one at the table ordered wine with dinner? If so, has this affected how you were treated afterwards or the quality of food received? If the sommelier approaches, what should I say? I may want to order a glass strictly out of guilt, but even then, is that bad etiquette? One would hope that restaurants are professional in situations like this, but as a practical matter I need to recognize that they're incurring a loss when customers choose not to order wine -- a fact that probably won't please them when I go. Tue Dec 24 11:02:52 -0800 2002 0 Silent Bob 1 83030 Bob, I'm pretty sure that La Folie will handle the no wine situation professionally. It may not even be an issue for them. But, what about calling the restaurant and explaining that your dining companion doesn't drink alcoholic beverages because of his/her religious practices, and ask if they can't suggest or help you with alternative beverage choices. That way you've given them the heads up that one of the guests doesn't drink, and you've included them in the alternate beverage selection. Given a couple days notice, most high end restaurants that pride themselves on customer service are going to be responsive to the request. Go, enjoy the meal, and don't worry about the wine service. San Francisco is a fairly tolerant town. Tue Dec 24 11:58:10 -0800 2002 83028 0 Gayla 2 83035 You beat me to it, Gayla! I was about to make the same suggestion, both about informing the restaurant in advance and asking for alternatives. There are many people who don't drink for a variety of reasons: religion, health, etc. There's no reason why a restaurant should take offense, but by informing them in advance they can handle it more gracefully. Hopefully they will take the opportunity to come up with some worthwhile alternatives. Tue Dec 24 12:33:23 -0800 2002 83030 0 Ruth Lafler 1 83032 This is a sad commentary really. Perhaps more people should refrain from ordering wine at restaurants in America. Then these establishemnts would be forced to build profit into their offerings in a more balanced and proportionate manner.... instead of skewed so heavily toward wine. It strikes me as sophomoric that Americans still place so much emphasis on wine, as though it were the altar upon which a great meal is placed, rather than a meal's greatest compliment. Recently, the Chronicle began running a section on Wine every Wednesday- separate from the Food section, which used to include the wine columns. This decision just illustrates an inappropriate focus on wine, in my opinion. For, what is wine, if not food? And, what is any discussion of wine worth, if not in the context of food? I digress... but, the point I'm trying to make is that your decision to not order wine should not be perceived any differently that a decision not to have soup as a starter. That the profit structure of the American restaurant system is distorted in this way is not your fault! I should hope the restaurant would understand if you decided not to drink wine with your meal. If you're still concerned, however, my suggestion would be to pad the tip a bit rather than encourage this warped system by ordering something you don't even want. Enjoy your meal. Tue Dec 24 12:15:59 -0800 2002 83028 0 JohnnyP 2 83037 I've always felt that increasing the tip helps when you feel guilty about scrimping (or when you BYOB). However, after thinking about it for a bit, it is obvious that this strategy helps the server, but does nothing for the owner or manager who is worried about making ends meet. Of course, this is just a general concern; at La Folie I hope they aren't struggling to makes end meet on the food prices. Tue Dec 24 13:01:47 -0800 2002 83032 0 Paul H 3 83039 True. But, again, if the profit structure were more proportionate, it would not be so important to proprietors that patrons order wine. The way I see it, wine has an image problem in America and large chunk of the blame belongs to the typical restaurant pricing model, which places an inordinate premium upon wine. Playing along with this system only reinforces it. Understand, I'm not against restaurantuers and I fully understand that they are simply following the prevailing pricing model. But, the system leaves quite a bit to be desired and I really think it impedes the general appreciation for wine as food. Tue Dec 24 13:32:16 -0800 2002 83037 0 JohnnyP 3 83089 I checked with a waiter I know. The corkage goes to the house. As well, it seems to me that in a restaurant of the quality you choose, they should also be sophisticated enough to know there are many reasons people do not drink as well as thoughtful enough to their customers to have spent the time and energy to have developed a quality wine list that includes bottles matched to their menu and bottles that can easily be afforded as well as bottles for those customers with unlimited budgets. It takes a lot of money (inventory costs) to keep these expensive bottles available and space(inventory costs) to keep the lesser wines. However, if a restaurant makes you feel uncomfortable because you don't drink or don't splurge, its their shortcoming. I have stopped going to a few places I liked (Iberia in Menlo Park for one) because of owner arrogance over this. I also avoid places with probihitive corkages. The wine I bring is better than their list and I do not like being penalized for having a good cellar. Thu Dec 26 14:07:29 -0800 2002 83037 0 Greg 2 83048 "That the profit structure of the American restaurant system is distorted in this way is not your fault!" Primarily because Americans (and many others) are not willing to pay for the true cost of a meal. If restauranteurs used a pricing model that allowed them to cover all their costs (and there are many), few could actually afford the meal. Not to mention, the dining out public has been conditioned to expect mass quantities of food for a very small price, courtesy of the mass feeders. But that's another story, and I'm not going there an Christmas Eve............... Tue Dec 24 16:16:36 -0800 2002 83032 0 Gayla 1 83038 I thought the whole idea of fine dining was for the host to make the guest feel welcome. If there is any attitude from the server he is not doing his job well and you may bring it to his attention in any number of ways. I'm sure the owner appreciates return clientele especially in the down times whether or not you decide to have wine, appetizers, soup or dessert. It is not my job to structure my meal on where the owner or the server make the greater profit. If your business is not welcome take your money elsewhere. Word of mouth is a very powerful thing. Tue Dec 24 13:19:20 -0800 2002 83028 0 Marilayne 2 83040 Rock on. I consider myself to be very understanding and flexible with restaurants that are doing their best. If service is overwhelmed... if I have to wait 20 minutes for the table I reserved... if they are out of a particular entree, etc. these are things for which I give restaurants the benefit of the doubt. But, insane mark-ups on wine, pushing wine orders, pooring wine to the rim of everyone's glass every time they get half full, cracking another $15 bottle of french water without asking, bringing the unsolicited bill to the table when we're half way through dessert.... these represent the uglier side of dining in many American restaurants IMO. To me, it is a mutual agreement that deserves mutual respect. I know it is a business and that not everything is in their power to control. I respect their efforts, but expect a certain level of respect in return. The beverage of one's choice should be respected. It's that simple. Tue Dec 24 13:44:44 -0800 2002 83038 0 JohnnyP 1 83045 Since my spouse doesn't drink, we almost never order wine or any other alcohol when dining out, and yet we seemed to be welcomed at restaurants up and down market in the Bay area with no visible evidence of scorn or derision...imagine that. We do notice, however, that interesting non-alcoholic drink alternatives are rare indeed. I would be more than willing to pay the treble and more "mark-up" for a bottle of Martinelli's or some of its upmarket "Jus" bretheren to add to my dining enjoyment but I don't recall seeing such choices almost anywhere...We had a delightful meal at Merenda just last week, for instance,and despite the fact that four of us had "water of the tap" only, our waiter was gracious and helpful, and we didn't notice our names being added to some "blacklist" of uncouth [read:less profitable] non-drinkers- in fact they "seemed" grateful for our patronage- and we didn't give them "advanced warning of our "affliction".... Tue Dec 24 15:30:04 -0800 2002 83028 0 Jimbo 1 83046 It has been my experience that La Folie is a classically great French restaurant, and I would be VERY surprised if the service you recieved there was anything below excellent... regardless of whether or not you ordered wine. They seem to truly understand the duty of a host to create a warm hospitable experience. The owner/chef Rolland and his wife do a great job of making everyone feel welcome, and the staff is very courteous. In fact, if you feel slighted by the waitstaff in any way, I would immediately let the folks know before leaving. I would never feel hesitant or overly concerned about not ordering wine at La Folie. Tue Dec 24 15:47:23 -0800 2002 83028 0 woo! 1 83069 I am quite surprised at some of the responses to your post. You have no duty to order wine so that the restaurant can rip you off by charging five times what they paid wholesale. Nor to you have any duty to call the restaurant to order non-alcoholic beverages. If for any reason you don't want wine, don't order it. We occasionally dine with friends recovering from alcoholism, and out of deference to them do not order either wine or non-alcoholic drinks. If the place loses money by not inflating the tab, so be it. Most upscale places should get by on food charges. Wed Dec 25 18:15:31 -0800 2002 83028 0 Jim H.