214940 Tue Oct 12 17:34:55 -0700 2004 25 18 Manhattan 0 1144521 I had lunch with my wife and another couple at Per Se last Friday. I'm a semi patient person but not patient enough to go through the reservation process at Per Se again or the dining ordeal. I thought Babbo reservations were hard to come by but Per Se is without a doubt the most rediculous process to get a table I have ever witnessed. I called for almost an hour the first time 60 days to the date ahead of time only to get a busy signal all this time before getting an automated message that then took another 30 minutes or so holding on the phone before I got a real voice who informed me 9:45 was the next available time for dinner. I declined. I called again the next day and got the same process. Busy signal for almost an hour and then holding on for another 30 minutes or so. I even gave the phone to my wife for part of the time it was so rediculous. When I got a real person the only time again was 9:45 PM. I'm not that old but I would not enjoy my dinner if I drank wine for an hour or so before dinner. I like a glass/two of red wine before dinner but dinner at 9:45 PM is too late. This time I declined the 9:45 PM and asked for lunch and got a 1 PM reservation. The restaurant was nice and modern looking. It was very very quiet in the room. The view of Central Park was nice but the tables were too far apart and the room was too quiet for me. The waiter was very nice and took a lot of time to explain the menu bit by bit. You could have a 5 course tasting menu or a 9 course tasting menu along with a choice of a vegetable tasting menu. There is a 17 course tasting menu for dinner I understand. First the food was outstanding but the portions were extremely small. I would much rather have an appetizer of beef cheek ravioli and the entree of duck at Babbo and then go home in an hour and a half or so. It took 3 1/2 hours to get through the 5 course menu. I was in NYC for my wife's 54th b/d and she was itching to get out shopping. Needless to say she got out at 4:30 PM. I have been to Napa 3 times and tried to get in French Laundry twice. I was not successful either time but the process there is the same as Per Se so I ruled out another trip to Napa to eat at FL. I may go back for another trip one day but I'm in no hurry now. My complaints were not the quality of service or the food but the servings were extremely small. Even the desert was a tiny portion. The lamb entree was outstanding in taste but again very small portion. I really don't remember each item we had but the four of us were very unhappy with the length of time involved which made it a boring lunch. I don't like the room. We were at The River Cafe that night and thoroughly enjoyed our meal, the service, the view, price, et al. I forgot about the price. I ordered a bottle of Corison for $105.00 and thought that was a fair price. It's about $50/bottle at home. I think the bill was $799.00 with a 20% tip added. This is very rediculous. Back home in Mississippi I could pick up the bill for a dozen folks at that price. I love NYC and I plan to return many more times. I enjoyed Daniel and Jean George this trip thoroughly. The service and food at both was excellent. Now if RGR will help me the next trip with some nice places that NY's like (Keen's, Lupa, et al) I will plan my return trip but not back to Per Se. Good luck to you folks. Best wishes to your fine city and all who work and live there. Great place. I almost forgot. We also did the Shake Shack. I did not know there was such a place but it was excellent. There was an article in Travel and Leisure this month about hamburgers in NYC and LA. There were several burger spots in NYC mentioned including Blue 9, Burger Joint at Parker Meridien, DB Bistro Moderne, Peter Luger and Pop Burger. We only tried Shake Shack and it was outstanding. I also noticed a huge line at Grimaldi's on Fulton St. near The River Cafe as we passed by. I will try that one next too. We also had lunch at Le Cirque for the 6/7 time and enjoyed it as well. I think I had the best duck ever for lunch at Le Cirque. Good luck to you all. Tue Oct 12 17:34:55 -0700 2004 0 Ike! 1 1144539 An integral portion of TK's culinary philosophy is his belief that we really only enjoy food for the first few bites....thus the long, many small-coursed meals at his restaurants....Per Se is not intended to be a place at which to "do lunch" (or dinner for that matter)....no problem that you don't like it...but it sounds like you had markedly different expectations. BTW, this is the first and probably the last time that I will ever, ever hear anyone complain about the tables being too far apart in a NY restaurant! Tue Oct 12 18:29:34 -0700 2004 1144521 0 Nathan 2 1144609 I have not yet been to Per Se, but I have dined twice @ The French Laundry. I remember Chef Keller @ Rakel's years ago and he had a stinker in Florida before finding his true calling in Yountville. The things that make Keller a great chef is that he takes chances, is whimsical and although he takes food seriously...he dosen't take himself over-seriously and enjoys bringing great products to the table for people to enjoy. That is why I wonder about Per Se? The French Laundry has some of the great produce in the world grown locally and although in warm weather local produce can be found in the NY area and you can fly in produce, etc., but duh, that defeats the fabulous notion that Keller & his staff were in the fields that day picking your food and bringing it to the table that night! Service @ the French Laundry was outstanding too, but it can be too quiet, if you let it be. A restaurant is not a house of worship, not matter what you think, but a place to have fun and enjoy. Is every dish going to be great everytime, all the time? NO, but you would have to be delusional to think so. Is Keller going to give you your money's worth? He thinks so and if you don't think you are getting a fare shake at a restaurant? Then open your mouth! Politely, but say what you think and have a conversation about it. Not everytime, but when you think you deserve better say so. Every great restauranteur wants you to enjoy your experience, thus the term "guest." I look forward to dining at Per Se. I know that Keller will make you feel, taste, smell, see and experience as great a food product, service and atmosphere that can be conjured up. PLEASE DON'T TAKE IT TOO SERIOUSLY. IT IS LUNCH OR DINNER NOT HEART SURGERY! Wed Oct 13 08:53:23 -0700 2004 1144539 0 F Gelman 3 1144628 I think Keller, on the contrary, takes himself way too seriously. Wed Oct 13 09:39:33 -0700 2004 1144609 0 Matt M. 4 1144644 Can you please give us a example ? Batali,Yes, Flay,More so. DiSpirito, Off the charts. But Keller ? I don't see it. Wed Oct 13 10:24:08 -0700 2004 1144628 0 Robert 5 1144667 I don't think Batali takes himself nearly as seriously as Keller. Here are people telling us how Keller envisions his meals should be eaten and how dinner in his place is an "experience", yet he doesn't take himself too seriously? Wed Oct 13 11:11:33 -0700 2004 1144644 0 Matt M. 6 1144673 Yes, he seems rather humorless (at least to me, who doesn't know him). On the other hand, perhaps that goes part and parcel with his culinary obsessiveness, the result of which, I think, is as close to perfection as I've ever experienced. Therefore, seeeing as it's much easier to find people to laugh at my jokes (including dinner companions at his restaurants) than it is to find someone who can cook like him, well... Frown away, Tommy! Wed Oct 13 11:17:33 -0700 2004 1144667 0 newsjoke 7 1144789 Taking one's self too seriously really has nothing to do with your sense of humor or dry persona. It is more being too full of one's self or holding one's self in too high a regard. Wed Oct 13 16:56:16 -0700 2004 1144673 0 Matt M. 8 1144815 What are you talking about? The man never leaves his kitchen ! And every compliment ever thrown at him he thanks his staff. Your one of the people who said Michael Jordan could not play ball I bet. Wed Oct 13 19:04:26 -0700 2004 1144789 0 Robert 9 1144843 I never said he couldn't cook. I said he took himself too seriously. There is a difference, you know. Thu Oct 14 09:18:50 -0700 2004 1144815 0 Matt M. 9 1144847 I also say MJ couldn't play ball, baseball. (g) Thu Oct 14 09:32:52 -0700 2004 1144815 0 WLA 1 1144547 It appears that you do not value the hardcore experience of getting into and dining at Per Se or French Laundry. To mention how far a dollar will go in Mississippi versus New York is, in a word, comical. Bear in mind that true Chowhounds are willing to take extreme measures for culinary excellence in all its forms. You may not be old, but if you can not handle dinner at 9:45 (or at least make an exception for Per Se) then I must question your devotion to the art of eating well. Tue Oct 12 18:51:33 -0700 2004 1144521 0 marco 2 1144573 59 years old and very highly devoted to the "art of eating well" having dined at Daniel many times, Jean George many times, Le Cirque, many times, Bouley, many times, Le Bernardin, La Cote Basque, Montrachet, Chanterelle, Gotham Bar and Grill, Gramercy Tavern, Union Square Cafe, The River Cafe, Babbo, March, Post House, Aureole, many times, Tribeca Grill, Water Club, Four Seasons, Oyster Bar and Restaurant, La Grenouille, Lutece, Veritas, Le Regence, Sign of the Dove, Felidia, Sparks, Palm, Il Mulino, San Domenico, Lafayette, Aurora, Terrace, Palio, Bice, Windows on the World, The Russian Tea Room and Tavern on the Green. Not only the great NYC restaurants but the great restaurants in San Francisco, Atlanta, Dallas, Miami, DC, Nantucket, Chicago, Memphis, Hawaii, et al. Emeril's, Bayonna, Peristyle, The Grill Room, Commander's Palace et al in New Orleans. I think I have been to NYC over 30 times and that's pretty good for a country boy. But I'm not going back to Per Se or French Laundry. We can agree to disagree but I think I'm qualified to make a decision on my own. And Per Se is on the low end of my restaurant top 100 poll at this time. You can go and enjoy it as much as you like but not me. Cheers. Tue Oct 12 20:59:51 -0700 2004 1144547 0 Ike! 2 1144574 I forgot to say that I would be leaving Per See at "about" 2:45 AM if I had the 17 course tasting menu. Are you that devoted to fine dining? Tue Oct 12 21:12:19 -0700 2004 1144547 0 Ike! 3 1144588 yes, i am. my issue with your review is that you shared virtually zero insight into the food. You give the impression that the food is not your primary concern. Tue Oct 12 23:11:36 -0700 2004 1144574 0 marco 4 1144596 I thought a restaurant review could cover anything and everything. Please note the following content of my review. My complaints were not the quality of service or the food but the servings were extremely small. Even the desert was a tiny portion. The lamb entree was outstanding in taste but again very small portion. I really don't remember each item we had but the four of us were very unhappy with the length of time involved which made it a boring lunch. In order to be more accomodating to you concerning the food please note the above. I don't remember each item the four of us had but the servings were way too small for the price involved. Indeed the length of time was a big factor. As I said my complaints were not the "quality of service or the food" but "other factors" such as the small servings and length of time involved were the primary concern. To make it clearer to you the food was outstanding at times but not every course was outstanding. Also I would like to point out the lack of proper seasoning in certain items. I was not displeased with the food in general but overall some items lacked the taste that I anticipated Mr. Keller's staff would provide. In rating the entire venture the food was "on a scale of 1/10" I would say 8/9 but other factors such as the price, length of time in service and atmosphere lowered the overall rating from 8/9 to say 4/5. Even though the service was outstanding I got very bored with a waiter constantly smiling at each of us and trying to overcome our anxiety he knew existed due to the long delays between each serving. The entire ordeal was rediculous. IMO. I must have had my water glass refilled 7/8 times, silver was replaced constantly. Someone was around each person doing this or something else every few minutes and the ordeal was unpleasant. I'm sorry I didn't like the place. Now you folks that do can have at it. But not me. Wed Oct 13 04:31:15 -0700 2004 1144588 0 Ike! 5 1144607 >>...the servings were extremely small. Even the desert was a tiny portion.<< I can eat like an abolute PIG (I'm 5' 10" and only around 145 pounds, but I can outeat just about anyone I've ever met) and, despite that, I found the the richness of those small portions (i.e., their fat-laden caloric density) made the sum total of nine of them (plus the bread and the wine) extremely filling. Also, as I recall, the dessert consisted of a couple of scoops of extremely delicious ice cream, plus a nice tray of petit fours... hardly "tiny." Wed Oct 13 08:48:28 -0700 2004 1144596 0 newsjoke 2 1144625 Even for those who like to dine late, myself included, it seems a 9:45 reservation at a place where a meal routinely takes 4 hours or more is a bit much. Wed Oct 13 09:35:46 -0700 2004 1144547 0 Matt M. 3 1146711 I completely agree that the reservations adventure at Per Se is by far the most insane in the city. Moreover, the prospect of a 3+hour meal that starts at 10 o'clock is definitely dubious. That being said, a meal at Per Se is truly transporting. Had a Sunday lunch in May one week after the second opening. Did wine pairings with each course. Every bite was seasoned perfectly and we were even given an unrequested tour of the kitchen after the meal. Definitely worth the hoopla, though I do tend to agree with Alan Richman's assessment of the decor as overly austere. Tue Nov 02 15:17:19 -0800 2004 1144625 0 millefeuille 2 1144637 What an obnoxious reply...........if he gets there at 9:45 then it sounds like he wouldn't be out until after 1:00 AM easy. You can't blame him for that. And if you want to get down to the true essence of chowhounding.....well......Per Se and French Laundry are as far away from it as you can get. The hardcore chowhounding experience is when you go to some neighborhood in Queens and try a whole bunch of places where english is a second language. Staying on the phone to get reservations at one of the most expensive restaurants in the city is not hardcore (though you may think so). Wed Oct 13 10:02:46 -0700 2004 1144547 0 Ian 2 1144696 I find your attitude thoroughly condescending, and I take it as a personal affront. Just because a person -- no matter what his or her age might be -- dislikes the idea of accepting a 9:45 reservation does make that person any less devoted to the art of eating well than you are. There are those of us who appreciate fine cuisine but prefer to appreciate it at what we consider a more reasonable hour. My husband and I are in that category, and we have managed to dine in many superior restaurants (though not at Per Se) without having to do so starting at 10 p.m. If you have no problem taking in a multi-course meal beginning at that hour and ending sometime in the wee small hours of the morning, that's your prerogative. But you should not be casting mean-spirited aspersions on those who do not share your view. Wed Oct 13 12:05:23 -0700 2004 1144547 0 RGR 1 1144560 Consider yourself lucky if you got through in an hour. It took me four hour's each time I called for reservations. But I can't blame the restaurant for this as it has to do with supply and demand. What has me dumbfounded is with all that has been written about Per Se why are people still surprised by the length of the meal ? It was written how long these meal's would be long before anyone even knew what the restaurant was named. Tue Oct 12 19:37:57 -0700 2004 1144521 0 Robert 1 1144631 $799 ??? Exactly how much was the tasting menu at lunch? Did you have more than the one bottle of wine? Were there only two of you? Sorry, I'm a CPA, can't help it. Wed Oct 13 09:47:43 -0700 2004 1144521 0 danna 2 1144643 If you had read carefully, you would have seen that Ike! said right at the beginning of his review that there were 4 at his table. He said that they ordered the 5-course tasting. I haven't been to Per Se but have read on Chowhound and elsewhere that the cost is the same at lunch and dinner -- if I recall correctly, at least $150. He also included information about how much he spent on a bottle of wine -- $105. He commented that, for this particular wine, he felt it was a fair price. (I'm not that knowledgeable about wine, so I'm taking his word for that.) He said the $799 figure did not include a 20% tip, but it would then also include the tax. So, just in case you haven't heard, I hope this provides the CPA in you with the evidence that the dining experience at Per Se does not come cheap. Wed Oct 13 10:23:46 -0700 2004 1144631 0 RGR 3 1145088 Thanks...there it was, right in the first sentence. 4 people. That makes me feel a little better. But, I think I can safely express an opinion that that's a pricey lunch. Fri Oct 15 12:21:44 -0700 2004 1144643 0 danna 4 1145264 Pricey? No question about it. Worth it? Well, that's definitely a matter of opinion. :-) Sat Oct 16 13:54:23 -0700 2004 1145088 0 RGR