20995 Thu Aug 15 15:35:14 -0700 2002 24 1 San Francisco Bay Area 0 74235 In the interests of full disclosure, I'll let you all know that if I make terrible mistakes and gaffes in this post, it's unintentional. I am extremely novice when it comes to Mexican food of all kinds beyond the Pancho Villa grocery-store products. This is why I've come to the Chowhound Oracle to learn! (Please note, if you answer me please translate any Spanish words!) 1) What makes a burrito a burrito? Is a burrito like a sandwich, in that whatever you put in it makes it a burrito? Or are there specific rules? 2)I had a remarkable (for me, anyway) burrito today at Lee's Deli, made by non-Mexicans. It was delicious, and not too bland. It was constructed thus: --very very large flour tortilla (tasted as if made with lard, which I think would make it authentic) --layer of slightly seasoned dry Spanish-looking (i.e: tomato-sauced) white rice --black beans (not mushy or refried) --sour cream --guacamole --lettuce --shredded cheddar-like cheese --tomato --red salsa My question is -- is this anything like what is served in Mexico? Or is this totally Americanized? 3) I had carnitas recently -- which I guess is some kind of slow-cooked pork. I was served it at Mexican-family gathering, and everyone seemed to enjoy it very much except me. I ate it plain on a plate with vegetables. Other people put it on tortillas and ate it such different ways (some even with yellow mustard!) thatI couldn't see a common thread. I was being entertained by an elderly lady of the family and I only complimented everything I ate, and didn't get up the gumption to ask (I know I should have) about how it was all prepared and should be eaten. 4) If I were venture to the Mission for some more authentic Mexican, where would you recommend? (Please don't suggest La Taqueria, where I got food poisoning on an early foraging trip, which scarred me against Mexican food for awhile). I'd like to do this in an organized fashion. I'd like purely Mexican places to start (no Brazilian, Peruvian, etc), and also places where I can order something that isn't automatically super-hot with chilis. I'm learning to like hot things more and more, but I still need to go slowly. If I need to order in Spanish, please give me the Spanish equivalent and I'll work on my accent :) 5) Really, what is a tamale? 6) What is picante sauce, and how is it different than salsa? I'm sure to most Californians this all seems so obvious! Where I grew up and have lived until I moved here were singularly lacking in Mexican food other than the big chains. So often on this board I see people tossing around terms which sound delicious, but don't make sense to me. I've even looked them up in Spanish dictionaries! (which doesn't always work). Many thanks in advance for any help I get. Thu Aug 15 15:35:14 -0700 2002 0 Mrs. Smith 1 74245 very interesting post. I am a Californian and I don't know the answers to some of these questions. Carnitas though are supposed to go with tortillas. Burritos can have anything inside, cheese, fish, shrimp,eggs, potatoes, bacon, ham. I think that anything rolled in a flour tortilla is considered a burrito. I look foreward to some of the hounds answers to these questions. Look on this board for reccos for taquerias (most athentic mexican) in the Mission, there are lots. Thu Aug 15 17:26:20 -0700 2002 74235 0 bennyboy 1 74247 A burrito, in my opinion, is a california thing. I could be wrong but except for northern Mexico, burritos are not readily available, nor do they look anything like what you might spend 12 bucks on in Los Gatos, California. It is also my understanding that the word burrito comes from the word "burro," or donkey, in spanish. The "ito" ending establishes the small size or "cuteness" of something. So unless im way off base, and someone can correct me, a burrito means a little cute donkey. So the california burrito usually contains rice, beans, lettuce, tomato, maybe avocado, and some kinda salsa and/or guacamole. If you ever have the chance, however, take a trip to Mexico. Start somewhere up north, like guadalajara in Jalisco (you can skip tijuana in my opinion), maybe cruise through Mexico city, and the on to Oaxaca further south. You will be amazed at the differences in food and you may find that the American notion of "mexican food," in general, does not reflect what people actually eat in Mexico. Thu Aug 15 17:29:50 -0700 2002 74235 0 jake hurley 2 74258 I haven't been to Mexico, so I wonder if tortas, those Mexican sandwiches that I've had at some local taquerias, exist over there? Thu Aug 15 19:02:50 -0700 2002 74247 0 svl 3 74261 I lived on tortas in Mexico City and they were just wonderful. They didn't have as many ingrediants as the SF version. There are a few discussions on tortas if you search the board. Thu Aug 15 19:09:47 -0700 2002 74258 0 Stanley Stephan 3 74493 No, I don't think tortas are a California thing. I had my first torta from a sidewalk pushcart in the back streets of Tijuana years ago - and I've not been able to replicate it since. I've tried tortas from the Napa taco trucks, and it's just not the same. Mon Aug 19 12:43:54 -0700 2002 74258 0 Christine Vallejo 4 74537 The best tortas I have eaten were in Mexico City. There was one place near where I went to school (this was 30 years ago, its probably long gone....) that had the best "Tortas de pierna" (Pork roast). Mexico City also has great bolillos (the roll that makes the torta) so maybe that's why they are so good there. Its definitely NOT a California thing. In Mexico, they use "crema" (kind of like sour cream) and no mayonaise, lots of jalapenos, avocados, tomatoes, onions, and whatever your choice of meat (roast chicken or pork, ham, tongue, carnitas, whatever.) They would put on a little grated queso fresco, but usually no sliced cheese. I've had the tortas at various taco stands around California, and they're not as good as the ones in Mexico. I think the difference is the bolillo. Maybe the ones in D.F. (that's Mexico City; kind of like saying D.C. instead of Washington DC) are better because the altitude somehow affects the baking. Mon Aug 19 23:59:11 -0700 2002 74493 0 Janet 2 74270 Not true (that burritos are native to California). I've had them in DC, in St. Louis, in Austin, in Chicago, and in small towns across the midwest. Even the "gourmet" burritos (ones with "exotic" foods like shrimp (whee)). It's an "americanized mexican food". *very* readily available at your local taco hut. If you disbelieve, look for (*shudder*) Taco Bell places online near some randomly chosen town. You'll find dozens... Thu Aug 15 20:09:06 -0700 2002 74247 0 Marc Wallace 1 74250 Mrs. Smith, this is a reverential query for something as humble as a burrito. (Burrito means little burro or little donkey in Spanish.) There are debates among purists about whether burritos must have rice and/or beans, whether the super burrito ingredients (sour cream, guacamole) are necessary or superfluous, whether the fancy spinach tortillas are cheating. Mostly it comes down to personal preference rather than science. The super quesadilla with meat that we enjoyed at El Taco Loco (24th by Mission) on a recent Chowhound taco crawl was memorable and to my stomach, indistinguishable from a burrito. Lots of other fine taquerias around 24th & Mission including Taqueria San Jose, La Corneta, El Farolito, and many more in recent posts. I'd recommend trying out the basic fillings with fewer extras and variations first so you can figure out what you like as a base. If you're not thrilled with spicy food, add your own salsa at the table. Get a side of guacamole and add it yourself to find out if you love or despise it. Carne asada (grilled steak) goes well with guacamole; I like carnitas (shredded pork) with refried beans and hot sauce. Pollo (chicken) with guacamole and salsa verde (green). Al pastor (spiced pork with onions, cilantro, and sometimes lime) is heaven on a taco, but for me, lost in a burrito. Lengua (tongue) can be rubbery or silky, but probably better on tacos than burritos. I won't go into the many kinds of salsa (which just means "sauce" -- and picante literally means "sharp"): the thick cut with chunks of tomatoes, lovely green salsa, roasted orange salsa, and very hot stuff. Get a basket of chips and try them out the sauces on their own before you combine them with the various fillings. Also bring a friend or two so you can try more than one burrito per taqueria. I should disclose that I have pretty much given up burritos for tacos--you get to try two different kinds of meat instead of having one giant tube to consume. And I like the corn tortillas that come with tacos more than the plain flour tortillas used for burritos. But that's me. I have traveled around Mexico and never actually seen a burrito there (have other people? Stanley Stephen?), although I've never forgotten the Oaxacan quesadillas with string cheese and squash blossoms. Several years ago I was amused to notice that "San Francisco Mission burritos" were available on the Upper West Side of Manhattan, for $6 each. I did enjoy the link below... Link: http://www.levity.com/brooklyn/Burrito/Burrito.html Thu Aug 15 17:57:05 -0700 2002 74235 0 Windy 1 74252 Here you go. Link: http://www.littleburro.com/ Thu Aug 15 18:07:19 -0700 2002 74235 0 Here you go Mrs Smith 1 74253 My own disclaimer, I'm not an expert in Mexican food, but I worked for a year in Mexico City so I am familiar with that part of Mexico from the Denny's type of place (Sanbourne's) to some really nice restaurants. I didn't do many street vendors as I had a hysterical boss who had me a little paranoid. But then again, I never got sick. So given that ... 1 & 2 WARNING: Not PG or sex and the burrito What makes a burrito a burrito is the flour tortilla. It can be wrapped around any filling. Corn tortillas break apart if they are too large. I didn't come find any burritos when I was in Mexico although I understand there are some areas that make them. As this is really a Mex-American invention, anything goes for the filling. If it is delicious, go for it. SF seems to have the most overstuffed version anywhere. For the definative history of the burrito (Spanish for little donkey), here's a link to an article called the Cylindrical God. Uh, if you can kind of ignore the beginning, I apoligize for the semi-raunchy site. It seems to be the only place this article is still on line. It seems it was originally published in SF Weekly, but no longer exists there. However, I did find a good review that sums up burritos well. http://www.sfweekly.com/issues/2000-11-22/eat2.html/1/index.html All other links to the Cylindrical God article come up "Not Found". To get to the actual story, scroll down about 11 paragraphs or enter "José Cuellar" in the "find on this page" option of the edit menu. It's really a good story though if you can get by everything else. http://www.sexuality.org/l/sex/burrito.html 3. Carmitas is shredded pork. It is most popular in tacos. There are some versions of this I really don't like myself. 4 & 5 I don't hang around the mission much, so I can't give you a tip there, however, the Ferry Market on Saturday has a tasty Mexican food booth next to Hayes Street Grill (near the coffee cart). I HIGHLY recommend their tamales. Not too dry with interesting seasonal ingrediants. I love the pumpkin in the fall. Nice salsa's on the side so you can control your own heat. I just buy them without the rice and beans which is more than I can eat that early in the day. They are $3. A tamale corn meal steamed in corn husks or banana leaves, and filled or stuffed. Usually it is pork, beef or chicken, but as you will see at Ferry Terminal, it can be anything delicious. This is very true in the part of Mexico I worked. There are even dessert tamales served with strawberries or other fruit. The hotel I stayed at had a popular Sunday brunch where many upper class Mexican families came after Mass. The dessert tamales were a big hit. The problem with tamales is that many places make them too dry. 5). Picante just means hot to the taste. My own interpretation is that picante is cooked while salsas are fresh. Here's a good article about it: http://archives.pottsville.com/archives/2001/Jun/20/E467373A.htm 6) Mexican food glossaries and definitions: This is a good one to go to first: http://members.lycos.nl/mexicancomida/diccionario2/diccionario2.html#t I was looking for corn fungus and I think when you scroll down there are a few really nice definitions. http://www.mexicofile.com/food.htm My favorite site, originates in Mexico. If you want basic and true recipes (translated to English), this is it. HOWEVER, they still haven't translated the glossary yet which is the most comprehensive on Mexican Food. You can either practice your Spanish or hold on to the link in hopes they translate this part as well. http://cocinamexicana.com.mx/ingles/menu/frame.html 7) What to try and what to avoid For a beginner, stay awa from chicharron - fried pork skin or lard. I NEVER liked it in any fasion in Mexico or here. Slimy, slimy, slimy. yuk. The Aqua Frescas are a lovely place to start. In the US you don't have to worry about the water. Basically they are fruit waters on the idea of lemonade. The ones at the Ferry Plaza are not a good example. Too sweet and too expensive. I really love horchata which is made from rice and flavored with cinnamon. Easy to like. I also like the brown slightly tart Tamarind which comes from a seed. You can find tamarind seeds in the fresh produces section of Berkely Bowl if you want to see what they look like. I am crazy about chipole anything. This is a smokey chile that is a little less hot, to me, than many. At the Ferry Plaza Tierra Vegetables has chipole jelly that you can sample. It's more like a relish than a jelly and is pretty good to me. The jellies have various heats, so be sure to ask. In Mexico, the soups were outstanding. I have yet to find a good place for tortilla soup or pozole in the Bay Area. I'm not crazy about Mexican sweet breads but I LOVE tres leches cake. Don't know how Mexican this is, but is is very good and moist. Thu Aug 15 18:16:40 -0700 2002 74235 0 Stanley Stephan 2 74254 A couple clarifications on your comments - carnitas is a style of cooking and can be made of many types of pork cuts. Here in the Bay Area, Michoacan-style dominates and the simmered in lard then shredded or cubed pieces of pork shoulder is most common. You might find the dry style of chicharron more to your liking, instead of the wet-braised. Wonderfully crunchy and rich in a gordita with a dab of refritos. Salsas can be fresh from raw ingredients or cooked. Here's a link to a massive thread on the General Topics board on the many guises of quesadillas. The upshot is that the various terms for Mexican foods, such as quesadilla, mean different things in different parts of Mexico, let alone in its translation elsewhere. Lots of regional differences and permutations. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/290040#1572665 Thu Aug 15 18:31:03 -0700 2002 74253 0 Melanie Wong 3 74271 Great info Stanley and Melanie. I'd just like to add a little info on carnitas and relate my own experiences. While there isn't really a "proper" way to eat carnitas, probably the most common and popular way is "taco style" in a soft corn tortilla, topping the carnitas with cilantro and cebolla (onions, pronounce seh-BOY-ah), salsa verde (green) or rojo (red), and squeezing some fresh lime or lemon on top. A few years ago a Mexican friend of mine brought me to an illegal carnitas restaurant that operated out of a garage in Calimesa (So. Cal.) only on weekends. The guy who ran the place cooked the pork by deep frying it in lard in a huge copper pot. Part of the "art" was to recycle the grease/lard for weeks at a time so it was infused with pork juices to give the meat with a rich, concentrated flavor - however, this method is frowned upon by the Calif. Dept. of Health so you won't find carnitas cooked this way in too many restaurants. I've never experienced better carnitas (and I never got ill eating it either). It was very flavorful, tender, and moist with an almost gamy pork flavor - nothing like the dried-out, overcooked stuff that passes for carnitas at most restaurants. The guy who ran this place was from Mexico City, and he said that his method was the traditional Mexico City-style preparation - the copper pot and recylced lard being the key. Besides the fact that the carnitas was so good, it was also an amazing deal: six bucks bought you a pound of carnitas, a dozen tortillas, and small tubs of cilantro/cebolla, salsa verde, salsa rojo, and fresh limes. Mexicans from all over San Bernadino Country descended on this place, but unfortunately so did health dept. officals, who shut down the operation. I think the owner used the money he made to open a "real" restaurant, but from reports I've heard his carnitas is not the same any more due to the restrictions (I guess someone could always hire him for catering though to get the real deal.) One other note: chicharon - or "cuero" (skin) as my friend called it - is often considered an essential part of the carnitas experience. This place served the wet, gelatinous style chicharon, which I never acquired a taste for. However, some of my Mexican friends would pass on the pork and eat only cuero tacos. The weekends when they also served birria (goat stew) or barbacoa (a similar beef stew) were the best. Thu Aug 15 20:11:26 -0700 2002 74254 0 Chris G. 4 74304 If you're lucky enough to get invited to the crush parties during grape harvest, carnitas are often the order of the day. The wives of the pickers will cook the carnitas in lard in copper vats over wood fires. Whole chickens cooked in this same recycled lard are delicious too. One of the best accompaniments is thin slices of red onions that have been marinated overnight in lime juice and salt. Absolutely heavenly on the meats with homemade tortillas and many bottles of Zinfandel. Fri Aug 16 00:55:39 -0700 2002 74271 0 Melanie Wong 5 74310 I have to admit that sounds a lot more appetizing than sitting in a dusty empty garage and drinking a Tecate from a can. At what wineries are these parties normally held? I've still got a few months to befriend a winery worker or two. Thanks! Fri Aug 16 01:18:44 -0700 2002 74304 0 Chris G. 6 74321 Actually, the carnitas pig-outs I've attended have been out in the vineyard, rather than at wineries, and mostly with independent growers. You eat standing up or sitting on a tailgate unless you've remembered to bring a folding chair. Price of entry is $5 for the crew's food cost plus a bottle or two of wine to share. As far as one that would be open to the general public, Peterson winery up in Lytton Springs (north of healdsburg) has an open house every July with a carnitas feed put on by the vineyard crew. I've not attended this event, but several friends enjoy it each year. It's worth getting on the newsletter mailing list to be notified of this. Fri Aug 16 04:20:25 -0700 2002 74310 0 Melanie Wong 2 74277 Stanley, great response. I've bookmarked this post, for leisurely enjoyment. First burritos I ever had were in Tiajuana, in the 60s. They were small in both length and girth, and filled only with coarsely chopped meat, which could have been beef, and some chopped jalapeno. No rice, no beans or guac or crema or sour cream or lettuce or cilantro or enoki mushrooms. This is how I make 'em at home, with whatever meat is handy. Carnitas, somewhere in San Diego I got the idea that the pork was first stewed, then fried. I like the crispy outside and the tender inside, and not too much seasoning on these. Tamales, Stanley hit it right on, a lot of times they're too dry. Also not enough filling, or the masa too coarse, or made with corn that's too old. I cannot often enough hype the tortilla stand at the Old Oakland Farmers' Market, on Washington Street, middle of the block. I like these better than any other tamales I can remember. Mrs. Smith, thank you for cheerfully asking these questions, that cause us to reconsider the wonderful bounty of food, culture, and people that surround us. Thu Aug 15 20:51:33 -0700 2002 74253 0 Shepherd B. Goode 3 74282 I saved that Cylindrical God article to disk as it seems to be disappearing fast on the net. It was interesting to find the burrito tracked from it's origin in Sonora Mexico in the 19th-century where it crossed the border with miners making it's way west to the fields of Salinas to it's SF appearance at El Faro in 1961. Many of the dishes in Mexico are less elaborate like the tacos you mention in Tiajuana. I prefer them that way because you don't get overstuffed. However, every now and then it's nice to have the extravaganza. Since Mrs. Smith wanted to limit the discussion to Mexican food I didn't mention that my favorite tamales are Guatamalan which are a more sauced version. Just have had them at friends so don't know any commercial sources. Thu Aug 15 21:23:43 -0700 2002 74277 0 Stanley Stephan 4 74284 You can get tamales at San Miguel, a Guatamalan joint on 20th between Mission & Valencia. I must confesss that I never paid attention to the sauce, or abundance thereof, but the tamales were pretty good. Thu Aug 15 21:28:52 -0700 2002 74282 0 chibi 5 74294 This post makes me yearn for the sopa Azteca and tamales at Cafe Tacuba in Mexico City. Tamales can be featherlight or leaden. I found the ones at Roosevelt Tamale Parlor in the later category, as were the mole tamales at Mom is Cooking. Heartburn. They should be moist and flaky rather than dry. I think we got a number of tamales at la Palma Mexicatessan that were good if not great. (Wrapped in banana leaves, tamales remind me of the pork-stuffed sticky rice at dim sum...) Years ago, Guaymas served lovely tamales with pumpkin seed salsa. The corner store by my house sells nacatamales, which I think are made by someone's abuela. I've also had lovely sweet tamales with cream (elote) at Panchita's Pupuseria on 24th & Harrison. But it's probably a separate search. I've been noticing Honduran (El Paisa) and Guatemalan restaurants, in addition to all the Salvadorean places right near my house. I'm looking forward to trying Chibi's recommendation. Fri Aug 16 00:02:02 -0700 2002 74284 0 Windy 5 74517 Wrapped in banana leaves or corn husks? Soft or coarse ground corn meal? Mon Aug 19 17:00:37 -0700 2002 74284 0 Melanie Wong 6 74714 Wrapped in banana leaves, but I don't remember the texture of the masa. I should mention one thing about San Miguel - they close really early (7:30pm) so you have to go early if you want to have dinner. Much better to go on a hot lazy Sunday afternoon and leisurely put away a plate of their spicy shrimp tostados with a nice cold one. Those tostados are the main reason why I never remember what anything else tastes like there. San Miguel 3520 20th St @ Mission (415) 826-0173 Thu Aug 22 20:10:49 -0700 2002 74517 0 chibi 2 74290 Excellent information. Carnitas, at least in the recipes I've seen, is first simmered in water. The water evaporates, and the pork continues to cook awhile in its own fat until it's wonderfully tender. A great way of cooking meat. Thu Aug 15 23:07:15 -0700 2002 74253 0 squid-kun 3 74291 Actually, there really is no "standard" recipe for carnitas. It can be roasted, fried, grilled, barbecued, cooked in the ground "Polynesian style," boiled, baked, stewed in a crock pot, or any number of preparations. Basically, it's shredded pork - the literal translation for carnitas is "little bits of meat." Generally what most of think of as the de rigeur version of carnitas involves a slightly crispy exterior and (hopefully) and moist and tender interior. Thu Aug 15 23:34:57 -0700 2002 74290 0 Chris G. 1 74750 I thought I'd get good responses to my queries and I was right! Thanks to all chowhounds who've helped in my "Mexican Education" I will share any delicious finds I come across on my now better-informed quest! Fri Aug 23 13:13:48 -0700 2002 74235 0 Mrs. Smith