20882 Thu Aug 08 00:52:01 -0700 2002 13 1 San Francisco Bay Area 0 73536 A skeptical Florence Fabricant takes a walk on the raw side in today's New York Times. Note the praise from Marion Cunningham and Hubert Keller (and the snarky remarks from Ron Siegel). Link: http://www.nytimes.com/2002/08/07/dining/07RAWW.html Thu Aug 08 00:52:01 -0700 2002 0 squid-kun 1 73548 Is Rox high on aesthetics or aesthetically high? I would say the former. We really don't need to make money. We're here for the pubilicity not the moola. Here's a novel idea: split the procedes with the kitchen staff so they can afford a sustainable life in Marin County. Last time I checked I had one stomach. My friends with extra digestive capacity in the barnyard are behind this I know it. Thu Aug 08 10:08:43 -0700 2002 73536 0 k. gerstenberger 1 73550 Thanks squid-kun for the article. I ate at Roxanne's two weeks ago and still remember the tastes of every bite of food I had. I like to go to restaurants where they serve food that I could never make at home and that definitely topped the list. There were a few glitches with the service (maybe they do need to be paid more!). We had six at my table so I was able to taste much of the menu. I think the only dish that wasn't swooned over was the Anaheim Chile - it would have been tastier cooked, as was mentioned in the article. I would definitely go back (the "soups" and desserts were awesome). I could really tell how labor intensive creating this type of menu is. The prices push it more into the special occasion realm. Thu Aug 08 10:27:23 -0700 2002 73536 0 Sharon S. 1 73560 "And as enjoyable as the meal was in summer, I wondered how I might like it in New York in January, with the wind chill at minus 10." Another lovely example of NY-centrism -- heaven forbid there should be regional foods that can only be enjoyed in the time and place for which they are created. If it isn't as great in NY, I guess it isn't really great cuisine. Thu Aug 08 12:28:56 -0700 2002 73536 0 Ruth Lafler 2 73578 Ruth, as a Californian transplanted to NY, I think perhaps you're becoming hypersensitive about the "NY-centrism" you see here. I say this as one who fully agrees with your assertions that people need to learn to appreciate what's available in the regions they're in at the moment. You will not find me among the transplanted Californians wailing about not being able to get California-style Mexican in NY, and though I am a fan of NY-style pizza, I won't be among the local wailers about that when I move back to CA. Those things do get tiresome, and you are right to criticize the complaints that there's no good pizza in CA because it's not NY-style (as I do the parallel that there's no good Mexican in NY because it's not CA-style. I think there are a couple of reasons that these particular comparisons frequently happen. There is a lot of migration specifically from the SF and LA areas to NYC and vice-versa. And these are also major food centers in this country with specific and well-known regional specialties/variations. I don't know what connection, if any, Squid-kun has with NY, but I assumed the remark stemmed from the fact that the article about Roxanne's was in the NY Times. It could just as easily been Ottawa or Oslo or anywhere else with cold winters. And Roxanne's raw-food philosophy is not an "only-in-CA" (and hence only enjoyable there) one; she created it with Charlie Trotter in Chicago, and there is a raw-foods restaurant in Manhattan, Quintessence, which either predates Roxanne's or came about at around the same time. But that hardly means it's great only because it's happening in NY. I think the majority of chowhounds will agree that something's great because it's great, period. No, not all of us can overcome a certain amount of provincialism about our food preferences, but most of us probably do try to be more open-minded. Lastly, I do guarantee that, if you were to relocate to the Northeast after spending your life in Northern, CA, no matter how much you came to appreciate the regional bounty, you'd miss what you didn't have and wax rhapsodic about it - that doesn't mean you'd complain about not having it on Chowhound, but you'd probably miss it and wish you didn't have to wait for visits "home" to find it sometimes. Thu Aug 08 15:29:06 -0700 2002 73560 0 Caitlin McGrath 3 73580 Points well taken, Caitlin. Just to clarify, though, I was quoting the NYTimes reviewer, who said: "And as enjoyable as the meal was in summer, I wondered how I might like it in New York in January, with the wind chill at minus 10." I just don't see why food should be judged on whether it would be as satisfying at other times and in other circumstances. It's a silly criterion -- why even bring it up? Thu Aug 08 15:59:55 -0700 2002 73578 0 Ruth Lafler 4 73582 Oops, sorry; I haven't delved into yesterday's food section yet so I misinterpreted. As for your comment, I agree. Thu Aug 08 16:10:51 -0700 2002 73580 0 Caitlin McGrath 4 73594 I have to disagree, considering the hype about this "cuisine" being the future of cooking as chef Trotter asserts.I don't think that this type of radical (non)cooking can be reproduced outside of Northern California or without the financial resources of the owners.As a happily transplanted NYer I don't think it has anything to do w/ NYcentrism, it just means that most of the rest of the country believes that raw parsnips are not the other white meat! Thu Aug 08 20:08:42 -0700 2002 73580 0 steven l 5 73598 Considering Charlie Trotter is from Chicago and that according to Caitlin there's also a similar place in NY, it seems this is much more than a Northern California phenomenon. But that still doesn't answer the question: why should *any* meal be judged by how appealing it would be in another place and time. Should I go into Bistro Jeanty on a winter evening, order cassoulet and then critique it by wondering "would this dish be just as satisfying on a summer day in Hawaii"? It strikes me as NY-centric to judge foods 3,000 miles away by the criterion of "would I enjoy it if I ate it in NY." The question should be "did I enjoy when and where I ate it?" Thu Aug 08 20:35:22 -0700 2002 73594 0 Ruth Lafler 6 73616 Ruth, if it's any consolation, the phrase about "would I like it in the Winter in NYC" caught my attention too when I read it. I thought it was a weird comment and out of place given the rest of the text of the article. I didn't really relate it to NYCentrism, my reaction was more - whether the food translates to NYC isn't the point, the comment didn't particularly have a bearing on food being served in Larkspur, CA. The point is that R.A.W. is the right food, at the right time, in the right place. What Roxanne Klein is doing is appropriate to Larkspur, Marin and the Bay Area. It dovetails with some of the lifestyle choices made in that area. I know very few Marinites or San Franciscans that take it to the R.A.W. extreme, but they are concerned about environmental issues and about what they put in their bodies. If and when the hype dies, there's probably more of a built in core of people who do identify with this style of eating in NorCal than anywhere else. I think the point made by a previous poster about the cost of producing this type of food is valid. Roxanne Klein has deep pockets, it's certainly a huge help. But does anyone here remember the first all-raw restaurant in San Francisco? On 9th between Lincoln and Irving, almost directly across from Gordos? It was owned and operated by some guy named Julian (I think). It got mostly positive reviews from the local press, and he even produced a very nice coffee table cookbook about his food and restaurant. He eventually closed the restaurant and headed for points east, maybe NYC? Part of what R.A.W. is doing isn't really all that new, she's just had a vision, given it form and substance, and has the financial wherewithall to support it. I think it's great that chefs are going out of their way to check out the operation. They may never want to do that kind of food preparation (can't call it cooking) but they will take ideas away from it to be reborn in a different format and presentation. I also don't find the less glowing chef comments all that surprising. There was a highly entertaining article in the San Diego Union Tribune back in May that was written by a well respected local chef. During the IACP (International Association of Culinary Professionals) conference in S.D. in April there was a special evening event billed as something like "An Evening with Charlie Trotter" at $75 a head. Several local chefs were recruited to assist with the preparation and cooking of the meal. What the local chefs, and many of the folks attending the "special evening" didn't realize was that Charlie Trotter wasn't doing his food, they were going to do, or eat, Roxanne Klein's food. The article was great fun, even if it wasn't very flattering to either Charlie or Roxanne. Their publicists were problably not amused. Unfortunately, the U/T archieves are not especially user friendly, I couldn't find a link to it. There's a phrase that's getting pretty tired these days and that's "thinking out of the box". Well, R.A.W. and Roxanne Klein's food is out of the box, that's why it's creating so much hype. Whether one agrees with the concept or not, it does force one to reconsider, re-examine and possible redefine how, or what, they think about food. And that's not necessarily a bad thing. Is it a real paradigm shift in our eating habits or attitudes about food? Probably not, but it does have people talking. Finally, the California restaurant review column in the current issue of Gourmet Magazine is on R.A.W. if anyone's interested in reading it. Thu Aug 08 23:20:59 -0700 2002 73598 0 Gayla 7 73617 The odd thing, reading the review, is even Roxanne doesn't seem to think the extremeness of her regime is necessary, chowing down on pastas in Italy and trying to recreate the dairy she has fond memories of. It reminds me of meeting Annie Somerville and discovering she eats meat on her days off from Greens. I haven't gotten to Roxanne yet; it's a lot of work and money for someone to emulate noodles with coconut strips, and it does seem frivolous if inventive. I guess French Laundry is frivolous too by that measure, but it doesn't make the same claims of going back to nature. The comment about the temperature is relevant to us because we live here. I guess the reviewer was trying to figure out if this was what she would eat ever again, back home; I would guess not, even in the humid summer, but it also doesn't sound like Charlie Trotter is likely to open a chain of RAW restaurants dotted around the country. Geography does play a role in the transferability of cuisine, even if the tone of the comment and much of the "review" was condescending. You know, those wacky Californians. I love the NY Times, but it's not just their food coverage of California that often seems to be written by suspicious aliens...Woody Allen in "Annie Hall"? Thu Aug 08 23:49:12 -0700 2002 73616 0 Windy 7 73618 Marian Burros may not know about it, but there is raw food in New York, as I mentioned in my earlier post, though not upscale/expensive a la Roxanne's. I haven't tried it. Link: http://www.quintessencerestaurant.com/index.shtml Fri Aug 09 00:10:13 -0700 2002 73616 0 Caitlin McGrath 7 73621 The raw food place on 9th -- I ate twice at Organica when I reviewed it for my school paper. I read somewhere that Julian moved south to LA where he had opened another raw food restaurant. Thing with Organica was that it lacked discipline (sounds like Roxanne does better in that area). Many plates were too busy with a clamour of flavors and textures. And while it was interesting food, I found it somewhat unambitious in that they were making raw imitations of pizza, burgers and burritos when they could have staked out higher ground. For something so cutting edge, I'd at least aim for a raw version of "foie gras" or "oysters" or "caviar". Also, instead of letting the ingredients speak for themselves, Organica tried contorting them into a weak resemblance of the objection of imitation. From the Times article, it seemed that Roxanne has a similar problem. A ribbon of wonderful zuchinni will never be identical to a perfectly al dente strand of fettucine, but it's still a wonderful ribbon of zuchinni. Give me good real vegetables instead of near-miss imitation meats or pasta or cheese. Manipulate ingredients for the sake of deliciousness, not for the sake of imitating something familiar. Lastly, some of the nut sauces at Organica were delicious and would have been great on pasta, roast chicken or a simple grilled salmon. If the stuff wasn't so labor intensive, I would have at least thought about adding some of that to my standard repeitoire. Fri Aug 09 00:29:14 -0700 2002 73616 0 Limster 7 73622 Juliano (ne Brotman; at some point he dropped the surname) is the fellow who made his mark at the raw restaurant on 9th Avenue. I seem to recall that some of his dishes depended on long hours of "cooking" in full sunlight -- which might explain why he left the Sunset. His name came up a few months back in a Chronicle story about Roxanne's. It says, among other things, that he moved to Los Angeles, where he runs "rave-style raw food classes" (!) for famous people (see link below). Link: http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2002/04/17/FD211598.DTL Fri Aug 09 00:42:51 -0700 2002 73616 0 squid-kun