207520 Mon Feb 09 12:17:42 -0800 2004 27 18 Manhattan 0 1105453 I've been bothered for the past few days by something that happened at Otto last week. I was meeting my younger sister and others for dinner, and got held up at work. My sister arrived first, and asked for a glass of "house wine" (white) at the bar. Now, my sister is very new to NY, not a big wine drinker, very southern, and quite young (22)- she is not accustomed to asking for a wine list at a bar. She is also a poor student- which is why she asked for the house wine. The bartender gave her what turned out to be a $16 glass of wine- one of the most expensive on the list. Something she only found out when she got the tab. Now, I didn't hear about this until later, and I certainly would have said something to the bartender if I had been there. Am I just wrong about what "house wine" means? Where I come from, it's generally one of, if not the, cheapest wine on the list. So was this a case of misunderstanding, or was the bartender just shamelessly gouging an unsophisticated patron? I understand that $16 is not a huge amount of money for a glass (or quartino- if they do that at the bar at Otto) of wine in this town- I'm just bothered because I feel like she was taken advantage of. Mon Feb 09 12:17:42 -0800 2004 0 efc7 1 1105456 The bartender, in my opinion, should have told her what he was going to pour her, and told her how much it was, in advance. Mon Feb 09 12:21:05 -0800 2004 1105453 0 Nina W. 2 1105464 I don't think the bar person needed to tell the recipient how much the wine was beforehand in every case. If the diner had cared, it was her responsibility to ask. However, the request for a "house wine" does suggest something on the low-to-average-priced side for wines of the type at the applicable establishment. So, in this particular case, I'd say that the bar person should probably have discussed the price prior to pouring. But not in many other cases, when a house wine is asked for. Mon Feb 09 12:40:11 -0800 2004 1105456 0 cabrales 3 1105472 Given the nature of the establishment, I doubt there is a 'house white' at Otto. The bar person should either have explained this to the young woman and helpfully shown her some choices on the wine list, or just given her a more moderately priced selection. She was most definitely taken advantage of. Mon Feb 09 13:01:18 -0800 2004 1105464 0 Romafan 4 1105784 Asking for a house wine in any language or in any city means you are looking for the least expensive glass on the list - Unless you are writing for Wine Spectator. Let's be real - she was completely taken advantage of and I hope this doesn't happen to anyone else. It plays into the shiesty image New York is known for by outsiders. We have so many great resturants to be proud of. Tue Feb 10 19:34:05 -0800 2004 1105472 0 Kate 5 1105853 "Asking for a house wine in any language or in any city means you are looking for the least expensive glass on the list -... " Not exactly true of Italy. Asking for the house wine means you want the purveyor's own blend. If the restaurateur made a Sassicaia blend it will be less expensive than other Sassicaia's but not the cheapest on the menu. In Italy, House Wine also means that which is either made by [or for] the establishment. We just assume it's the least expensive of all the wines on the list. Untrue in Italy. Otto is authentic Italian. Wed Feb 11 11:21:35 -0800 2004 1105784 0 Moscato 6 1106563 I think the responsibility is on the buyer at an upscale joint. Did she complain when she saw the bill? If not, why not? I would have been steamed, but I would be able to tell if it was a quartino as well...HELLO!...Maybe the bartender was busy, people make mistakes. What if she had ordered a scotch? Prices are not always offered if they are not inquired about. Mon Feb 16 17:07:31 -0800 2004 1105853 0 joe 1 1105458 I think the bartender should have taken her question as a cue to take out the wine list and point out the choices by the glass. Then, your sister could either have asked more questions or chosen one purely according to price. The way it was actually handled, while not shocking to my senses, was not the best way. Mon Feb 09 12:24:46 -0800 2004 1105453 0 Dom 1 1105463 In simple terms, your sister was ripped off. IMO, that is absolutely unacceptable behavior from a bartender and if you had any interest in contacting the restaurant, I suspect they would be embarrassed. Mon Feb 09 12:39:08 -0800 2004 1105453 0 Bill L. 1 1105466 In a place with a small by the glass selection, it is fine for the bartender to simply pour a glass of white in response to that request. However, I assume Otto has a nice wine list (as Mario Batalli's other ventures do), in which case a vague request should have been followed up with questions/input from the bartender. In Lupa, for example, a request like hers would have been met with a presentation of the wine list by the bartender and probably an explanation of the wines by the carafina (they don't do by the glass). This bartender clearly took advantage of the situation. As this is not common behavior for the bartenders in his places, I would not feel out of place calling or writing to the restaurant to let them know. You will probably receive a very positive response from the manager. Mon Feb 09 12:47:31 -0800 2004 1105453 0 Matt M. 1 1105474 Otto doesn't serve wines by the glass. They serve bottles, and quartinos. The cheapest quartino is $8 for a white wine, and $9 for a red wine. So I assume your sister was served a quartino - granted, she might not have known this was not a "glass." A quartino is about 1/3 of a bottle. It's served in a little carafe, and you're given a wine glass too, of course. That being said, I still think the bartender should have told her which quartino he was serving, should have clarified that it was a quartino and not a glass that was about to be served, and let her know how much it was. Mon Feb 09 13:19:56 -0800 2004 1105453 0 Nina W. 2 1105638 Most people who walk into Otto know it's a Batali, Bastianich, Denton, & Ladner place. Well at least they know it's Batali and Bastianich. That should be the first clue about their "House Wine." Otto does not use the term "House Wine", but if they have a House variety I'm most certain it would be a Bastianich estate wine. Likely a Vespa which is a Superwhite or Joe's red. These are artisan wines invented by the Bastianich estate, with much acclaim. At all the Batali & Bastianich restaurants the "House" varieties are always Bastianich; whether the grappa or wine. The bartender could have described the Vespa white to her, but if she's not taking the time to examine the wine list -or even ask for a wine list- then she has communicated that the wine of the evening is not of high importance. She'll take whatever they're pouring. $16 a quartino for Vespa is not a bad price at all. Tue Feb 10 10:55:52 -0800 2004 1105474 0 Giacomo 3 1105678 I dont agree with your premise. You imply a familiarity with the business background of a sceny restaurant - whereas I suspect most of the folks who go there just know the face-man, Mario. A 22-year old kid from out of town who doesnt know from white is not going to appreciate the value proposition behind paying $16 when she asks for a glass of the house white. The bartender could and should have done a better job of communicating here. Tue Feb 10 12:54:14 -0800 2004 1105638 0 jen kalb 4 1105726 "A 22-year old kid from out of town who doesnt know from white is not going to appreciate the value proposition behind paying $16 when she asks for a glass of the house white." Exactly! & this is the whole point of the 'wool-over-eyes' argument, IMHO. Even if the bartender didn't mean anything by it, it was still a mistake--the best thing to do would be to point out the different white wines and the prices and then let her make her own ill-informed decision if she so chose to. I don't think what anyone's saying is that a quartino of Vespa is unreasonably priced at $16, but I could be wrong--at least it's not what I'm suggesting at all. Tue Feb 10 15:22:24 -0800 2004 1105678 0 Katherine Bridges 5 1105762 Unfortunately, we do not know the full story of the interchange between the young woman and the bartender. Not enough info. Maybe she refused the wine list by immediately placing her drink order, or maybe she never received the list at all. I agree, however, the bartender should have clarified the "house wine" since that is not a term used at Otto. That term at Otto would indicate a Bastianich Estate or an unfamiliarity with Otto's wine list. But by making the clarification the bartender risks the potential of coming across challenging or insulting to the patron. It can be a fine line for all servers. Just because someone is 22 and wears a fanny pack does not automatically indicate they're food & wine illiterate. The median age at the CIA is early 20's. Tue Feb 10 17:22:42 -0800 2004 1105726 0 Giacomo 6 1105795 I know; I'm 20. But yes, it's a shame & a sticky situation. Tue Feb 10 22:27:49 -0800 2004 1105762 0 Katherine Bridges 1 1105480 EFC said: The bartender gave her what turned out to be a $16 glass of wine- one of the most expensive on the list. Something she only found out when she got the tab. Now, I didn't hear about this until later, and I certainly would have said something to the bartender if I had been there. Am I just wrong about what "house wine" means? Where I come from, it's generally one of, if not the, cheapest wine on the list. So was this a case of misunderstanding, or was the bartender just shamelessly gouging an unsophisticated patron? *********** $16 for a half-carafe of wine is not a rip-off, if it was a quartino... works out to about 6 to 8 a glass. 16 a glass on the other hand is a bit steep without an alert. The confusion is more over the term "house wine". You're definitely right that "house wine" USUALLY means a pour of a more "non-descript" wine at a "starter" price point.... but not always. If the restaurant pours a "name" product in it's house category, I always appreciate it when the waiter asks, for example: "Beringer Reserve is our house wine, will that be okay?"... clearly letting you know that it's not going to be the bottom price point. Also certain restaurants have their own "branded wine label" and those could be priced anywhere on the spectrum. In this case, if the "house wine" was not the $8 quartino but instead the $16 quartino, then it was not the starter price point, obviously, but can't really be considered a rip-off. Bottom line, just always look at the wine list, lol. Mon Feb 09 13:48:18 -0800 2004 1105453 0 Chicago Mike 1 1105493 Your sister got taken advantage of by the "city slickers". Really no excuse at a place like that. Mon Feb 09 15:16:11 -0800 2004 1105453 0 jen kalb 1 1105495 Given the reputation of Batalli's other establishments, I wonder if anyone (myself included) seriously enough considered that perhaps it was a mistake (i.e. charging her for 2 quartinas or carafinas). Or perhaps the sister made a mistake. Was more than one ordered over the course of the night? Mon Feb 09 15:26:30 -0800 2004 1105453 0 Matt M. 2 1105553 Thanks for the responses everyone- I absolutely agree that if price were important to her (and it was) she should have asked to see the list. However, I think that her request for "house wine" should have tipped the bartender off to the fact that she wanted something inexpensive. To answer your questions, it most definitely was not a mistaken charge for two orders. That was the only drink she got. And I believe it was a quartino, altho she referred to it as a glass. In sum, I'm not arguing at all that she was in the right, and should have expected to be served the most inexpensive thing on the list solely based on a request for the "house" white. I just think that the bartender should have been tipped off by her very youthful and non-NYer appearance, and by her request, and at least shown her a list, or asked if that price was ok. Maybe I'm being overprotective, but I felt badly that I had left her to fend for herself, and I didn't expect to feel that about Otto. Finally, I'm not saying at all that $16 for a quartino of what I'm sure was a good wine is gouging- but I think it's gouging to charge people substantially more than they expect or anticipate. For some people $16 for a quartino *is* a lot of money to spend on wine, and it was twice as expensive as the other options. If nothing else, this taught her the same lesson I learned when I first moved to NY: you can't go into even a casual restaurant here and expect that prices will be anything like they would be back in Tennessee! All in all, she learned that lesson pretty cheaply. And I did treat her to a pretty great dinner at Otto... Mon Feb 09 19:26:18 -0800 2004 1105495 0 efc7 3 1105652 I've been in Tennessee on business for a while now, and -- if I were to bring any of the locals back home with me -- I could certainly imagine them winding up in the same situation. Still, I'd probably have a laugh and tell them it was their fault. If there's something at Otto that's considered a "House Wine", then that's what you're going to get when you ask for it, even if the bartender is some mind reader who can sense "South" and divine a lack of wine proficiency. I'd chalk it up as a lesson learned, and move on. There are certainly worse ways to find out that NY can take a shot at you when you aren't paying attention. Tue Feb 10 11:22:05 -0800 2004 1105553 0 j 1 1105509 There is no "house wine" at Otto (and they do have a fabulous list). As others have noted, wines are served by the quartino, not by the glass and so in that sense $16 is not a gutting. Nevertheless, I am surprised the bartender didn't explain the foregoing. Considering that Otto is emphatically a wine bar it is conceivable that the bartender took her statement as actually a request for a recommended white. Mon Feb 09 16:30:45 -0800 2004 1105453 0 Nathan 2 1105518 "Considering that Otto is emphatically a wine bar it is conceivable that the bartender took her statement as actually a request for a recommended white." Oof; conceivable, sure, but it sounds like a stretch to me. I've tended bar (although unfortunately never at a restaurant I'd be proud to work for), and when that situation comes up protocol would definitely be to present the wine list and explain the differences/prices/etc. We would do well to keep in mind the customer here--a 22-year-old wine-novice non-NYCer? Seems like she got taken for a ride; there's no way to tell that she'd know that $16 for "house white" is not out of the question for such a place. Too bad all around. Mon Feb 09 17:08:32 -0800 2004 1105509 0 Katherine Bridges 3 1105521 good points; though how the bartender is supposed to know that she is a non-NY'er and a wine novice -- on second thoughts the request for a "house wine" at an enoteca should give that away, so yeah, he acted inappropriately Mon Feb 09 17:22:45 -0800 2004 1105518 0 Nathan 4 1105554 From experience, it's generally pretty clear. Mon Feb 09 19:28:08 -0800 2004 1105521 0 Katherine Bridges 1 1105547 Hmmmm... Sounds like we may not be getting the whole story here. Was it a "glass of wine" or quartino? When she ordered a "house wine (white)," what did the bartender say to her? My experience at Otto is that bartenders, servers, etc. are friendly and helpful. Something is not adding up. Mon Feb 09 18:47:50 -0800 2004 1105453 0 Steve Harrington 1 1105659 the more I think about it the more I think she wasn't "taken advantage of" ... the bartender (considering her obvious neophyte status) should have explained he was pouring a quartino but for heaven's sake -- we're talking about $6 here (between what she was poured and the least expensive white) -- she got close to a 3rd of a bottle for a very fair price -- essentially $5 a glass -- back in Tennessee they probably charge that for Yellowtail Chardonnay as a "house wine." Tue Feb 10 11:45:46 -0800 2004 1105453 0 Nathan 2 1105662 in terms of restaurant economics -- the "house wine" is usually the worst deal on the list (i.e. marked up the most from whatever they paid for it) Tue Feb 10 11:48:22 -0800 2004 1105659 0 Nathan