204961 Sun Nov 02 14:58:47 -0800 2003 13 18 Manhattan 0 1092862 Regarding DiFara's someone wrote: " I think it was Leff who said this place is all about the cheese" To which I replied: "no, that's Sal and Carmine's, on the Upper West Side. Mr. DeMarco's pizza is all about the caring." And then Dan Sonenberg wrote: I always wondered whose quote that was in the window of Sal and Carmine's...was it you Jim? It's wrong wrong wrong! Sal and Carmine's is all about the crust, the sauce, the cheese...the caring too. It ain't DiFara's, but it's still one of the best slices in town. When I was dating a dairy-intolerant woman a few years back I had many a cheeseless pie from Sal and Carmine's and they were divine. Tried the same thing at John's pizza (albeit not on Bleeker, up near Lincoln Center) and it was abysmal. I agree that S&C make an excellent slice, Dan (though many people for some reason can't stand the place). And I have a clarification, a theory, and a story to add. But right now I've gotta go eat, so I'll post later. If anyone else wants to share Sal and Carmine's reflections, go ahead and start without me! ciao Sun Nov 02 14:58:47 -0800 2003 0 Jim Leff 1 1092875 What I love about S&C's is that they make one pizza at a time, they don't deliver, and they're consistent. I don't like that they leave their spinach and broccoli pies out, so that a spinach or broccoli slice is almost always a reheat (why not just add the topping per order), but it's much better than most places, where you see about 8 different pies sitting on the counter festering away, and a fresh out of the oven slice is a rarity. It's news to me that a lot of people can't stand the place. I can't imagine how Sal and Carmine's could possibly be controversial! The pizza's always good - and all of the elements are top notch. Eager to hear a dissenting view/explanation. Also very eager to hear Jim's theory. Sun Nov 02 17:42:42 -0800 2003 1092862 0 Dan Sonenberg 2 1092902 The most consistent complaint about Sal & Carmine's is the high salt level (second biggest gripe -- high grease level). I happen to love the place, & love Sal and Carmine. The pizza is saltier than most, and greasier than most serious pizzas -- so be it. But I do think the plain slice is what to order. I'll usually wait for a new pie to come out, but even a reheated one is pretty darn good. Mon Nov 03 00:42:16 -0800 2003 1092875 0 Dave Feldman 3 1092997 which keeps me from coming back to S&C's. I got a mouth ulcer from one slice! I suggest not coming early because that's when they tend to reheat slices from God knows when-even the plain cheese ones. Mon Nov 03 19:31:04 -0800 2003 1092902 0 TimWil 4 1093001 Wow, it's just so weird. I'm generally very sensitive to over-salted food. I have never found S&C's too salty. Never! I also don't totally agree that the plain slice is the only way to go. Well, let me amend that. If you're buying by the slice, it's probably best to stick with the plain, which are (in my experience) almost always relatively fresh. However, if you're ordering a pie, their spinach pies are out of this world. Mon Nov 03 19:45:32 -0800 2003 1092997 0 Dan Sonenberg 5 1093035 And I concede I've never had a spinach pie (a topping I like, although I wish more places made escarole pizzas, which is my favorite green topping for pizza). Tue Nov 04 02:07:48 -0800 2003 1093001 0 Dave Feldman 1 1092880 Re: your comment about your experience with John's uptown. After hearing raves about the pizza at the Bleeker St. location, I finally tried the regular pizza there a couple of years ago and found it to be thorougly abysmal. Sun Nov 02 18:48:36 -0800 2003 1092862 0 RGR 1 1093027 Ok, my massive update on Sal and Carmine's. Anecdote first. The following is what I wrote about them in NY Press (the article Dan saw in their window). This might be the only time I was ever forced to write in first person plural (it was for the NY Press' "Best of" issue), so try to get past that weirdness: ---------- You can’t just go to Sal and Carmine’s and down a slice. To really appreciate the place, you have to understand what they’re trying to say with their pizza. It took some doing to figure it all out, but we're pretty certain we've got it now. On our first visit to Sal and Carmine’s, we noticed that they proofed their dough in wooden drawers. Very good—this is the deluxe, serious way to do it. Also, the sauce looked different from the norm—probably homemade. Another good sign. The pizza maker spins the dough up in the air. We know; it’s pointless showing-off. But it’s old fashioned, and it means that the guy takes pride in his work. No one ever spins the dough at Pizza Hut. Then you pop your slice, and the first thought is: hmm... crust’s nothing special. Why do they take the time to fuss with it? And the sauce is kind of dull—almost unnoticable. Hardly worth the trouble of making it from scratch. It doesn’t make any sense. Really nice cheese, though... . Now we’re getting closer; we’re about to penetrate the inner core of the Sal and Carmine’s mystery. You see, it’s a cheese thing. Everything else is carefully, exactingly designed and crafted to superbly support the cheese. Crust doesn’t distract, but provides the canvas for this artistic study in cheese. Sauce binds and activates entirely behind the scenes, providing a subliminal buoying catalyst for the slice as a whole. When eating at Sal and Carmine’s, one must remember to eat (conceptually) from the cheese down, not from the crust up. ---------- Anyway, I was just starting out in writing, and couldn't resist doing something slightly amateurish (which I've never repeated since): I asked the pizza guy what he thought of the article (certainly not revealing that I wrote it, just inquiring like a bemused customer). His reply was absolutely priceless: "Idunno what duh FUCK the guy's talkin' about!" I laughed for days. Haven't really stopped, in fact. I'm giggling right now. Ok, that's the anecdote. Now the theory, which is unrelated (I still devoutly believe every word of the above). There are three pizzerias I know and love (Sal and Carmine's, Attilio's in New Brunswick, NJ - not the one in south jersey, and the pizzeria on 1st Ave just north of 57th street on the east side that may not still be good) which make pizza I've always considered to have a distinct flavor. I've dug down deep to describe this flavor, but the closest I've ever come is a "macaroni and cheese" flavor, which isn't quite right because that associates more with the wrong (cheddary) cheese. I also noticed that all three of these spots were incredibly divisive. I'd send people to them and they'd return either grateful or snarling. No one is on the fence about them, you either love them or hate them. After many many years, one of the snarling people told me what he hated about Sal and Carmines. It's too salty. I blinked vapidly. It didn't register. Understand: I'm really really Catholic in my salt appreciation/tolerance. I'm fatally skewed on coffee, I can be led astray with Indian bread (Jen Kalb taught many of us about the Bisquik shortcut...I though that was how naan was supposed to taste, and still must fight to calibrate). But other than a propensity to sometimes put salt on watermelon, I have no salt issues whatsoever. I almost never add any. I am the John Doe - the Marilyn Munster - of salt. But next time I went to Sal and Carmines, I tasted for salt, and damned if it wasn't true. The distinctive, uncharacterizable flavor in this pizza - and in those two other places', as I considered it - does, indeed, result from extra salt. Extra salt on pizza changes the flavor in a deep, pervasive way. I recalled nutty people I've seen sprinkle salt on pizza, and finally understood. Salty pizza is a discrete style. Some love it, some do not. But those who love it don't taste the salt, and those who hate it taste nothing but (exception: Dave Feldman, though I suspect he had the saltiness pointed out to him only after he decided he loved the pizza!). This was probably incredibly dull for most of you. But for me it's pure revelation. By the time I die I'm hoping to have everything all figured out (one slice at a time). ciao Mon Nov 03 23:22:27 -0800 2003 1092862 0 Jim Leff 2 1093045 As I've mentioned on the outer boroughs' board, I grew up at DiFara's. I'm ashamed about many of my youthful activities, but none as much as the years I put salt on Dom's pizzas. At any rate, apply your theory to the transformation of a bagel & try not to taste the sugar in H&H's from that point on. Tue Nov 04 08:22:23 -0800 2003 1093027 0 steve r. 2 1093046 Wow. Well Jim, I think my post below (about salt) confirms your theory. Now I'm eager to go back (as if I needing coaxing) to try it - I bet you are right. Still, I take issue with the "cheese thing." [Tho I aboslutely love your anecdote. That sounds like Carmine, who is a tough nut to crack. Every time I go I tell him how much I love the pizza to absolutely no response. However, a few years back when I lived in the neighborhood, I had a horrible back problem for a spell so that I could hardly walk. He was moved practically to tears every time I came into the place. Asked me how I was doing, and what I was doing to treat it etc. I guess maybe pizza talk isn't the way to his heart?]If I ever had to choose a single element that makes their pizza so great, I would probably say crust. Not a thin crunchy one, but more of a billowy, yeasty one. It's the pizza place I most enjoy visiting with non crust eaters, so I can snarf up their leftovers after the main event is finished. I don't know what would make their cheese particularly special - I mean it always tastes good (and maybe that's the source of the salt?), but it never leapt out at me as a particularly unique or special combination of imported cheeses (like that guy in Midwood...[see the never-ending array of DiFara posts on the boros board]). I certainly don't think they use more cheese than other pizzerias. So what is it about the cheese that's so spesh.? Last thing is: I've never brought anyone there who salt-freaked on me. Never had one of those times when you've over-hyped a place and then are met with incredulous non-enthrallment. Everybody I bring just loves it. So do I hang with a particularly salty crowd? Or are the salt-sensitive dissenters (and I too never add salt to anything, just about) a pronounced but vocal minority? Tue Nov 04 08:27:23 -0800 2003 1093027 0 Dan Sonenberg 3 1093154 The point of the article, though, wasn't "great cheese, fair sauce and crust". If I'd meant that, I'd have said so; I wasn't being expansive just to show off, I was trying to explain that the crust is PERFECT and the sauce is PERFECT - perfectly crafted to meld with the cheese. I'm not trying to say this is the most luxurious and wonderful cheese in the world. It's not. It's not even particularly GOOD cheese. But while a woman ballerina may be inferior to the two male dancers she's working with, she's nonetheless the focus, the lead who is supported by the others. Same for a rock band and its singer/frontman. The focus is not always the best quality element. Everything in a Sal and Carmine's slice does its job perfectly (if you like salty pizza!). The choreography, execution and ensemble work is all beautiful. But the cheese is figuratively as well as literally on top, and everything else fulfills its role accordingly. "So do I hang with a particularly salty crowd? Or are the salt-sensitive dissenters (and I too never add salt to anything, just about) a pronounced but vocal minority?" How tall and muscular are you? And what's your usual behavior when contradicted on closely-held opinions? ciao Tue Nov 04 17:38:11 -0800 2003 1093046 0 Jim Leff 1 1093223 How about this one -- I went to Sal and Carmine's yesterday (election day) because of the various recommendations I've read on this board and it really was NO BIG DEAL AT ALL. We are talking about the one on the west side of Broadway around the middle of the block near 101st street, right? Well, it was totally boring, run of the mill dreck. I've been to around 100 pizzerias in the city that are better. To be more specific, the crust was bland, the sauce was decent, and the cheese and spices were totally unspectacular. Maybe I caught them on a bad day? Maybe they were so concerned about the possibility of non-partisan elections that their thoughts were consumed with the ongoing balloting? I don't know. I'll give them another chance. But really, I'd currently rate them a 5 on the 1-10 scale (based on my one experience). Wed Nov 05 10:28:46 -0800 2003 1092862 0 Ian 2 1093227 BTW, I think the pizza that Sal & Carmine aspire to is already being served at Amore's in Whitestone in Queens, in the Pathmark shopping center. THEY do the salty pizza thing perfectly, which is probably why there's always a line there. Sal & Carmine's remind me of Amore's, except Amore's has more soul. It's hard to explain, but S&C struck me as just another bland Manhattan pizza, lacking heart and substance. But I'll try at again. Wed Nov 05 10:37:54 -0800 2003 1093223 0 Ian 2 1093278 Well, then that'd make you one of the many people who don't like the place! Hey, there are places that are no-fail (Difara's) and there are places I know lots of people will like and and lots won't. Although, come to think of it, we've had several people post "what's the big deal?" messages about Difara's, too. Conclusions: 1. Different moats float different boats, and 2. I need to try Amore ciao Wed Nov 05 14:24:23 -0800 2003 1093223 0 Jim Leff