204481 Wed Oct 15 17:17:01 -0700 2003 9 18 Manhattan 0 1090432 Went to L'Impero on Saturday night and had a wonderful meal. The wine list was extensive and nicely organized, but there did not seem to be many choices for under $40. I wanted to give the sommelier some room for making a recommendation, so I asked for something under $60, and he suggested a Tolosa (California) Pinot Noir 2000. We enjoyed the wine very much, and I don't regret it, but the aftertaste is not quite as agreeable today, having found the same wine available in a wine store for under $14. I understand that restaurants mark up their wines considerably (I've heard that 100% is not uncommon), but this seems excessive. Any opinions? Wed Oct 15 17:17:01 -0700 2003 0 Pud 1 1090439 The general issue of wine markups isn't a Manhattan-specific issue. If you're looking to start a discussion of the issue at all restaurants, please repost on the Not About Food board. If you want to limit the discussion to just talking about L'Imperio, then it's OK to continue here. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/boards/notfood/notfood.html Wed Oct 15 17:33:34 -0700 2003 1090432 2 The Chowhound Team 2 1090547 I understand the desire to move off-topic links to the appropriate boards, but I don't see how a discussion of wine mark-ups in New York restaurants is off topic. Wine service is a very important of the dining experience and I think this board is very much about dining and enjoying food in Manhattan. I don't mean to be critical, but I was very surprised to see this post. Thu Oct 16 13:53:55 -0700 2003 1090439 0 Really? 3 1090551 Again, discussion of this issue specific to Manhattan is fine here. Thu Oct 16 14:19:56 -0700 2003 1090547 2 The Chowhound Team 1 1090464 Are you saying that the Tolosa Pinot was $60 at L'Imperio? That's pretty darn expensive for a 2000 "California"-designated Pinot. Over 2.5x retail is excessive but unfortunately not uncommon. It's rare to find a markup under 100%. Wed Oct 15 21:18:41 -0700 2003 1090432 0 Reece 1 1090647 I am the sommelier at an expensive NYC restaurant with a 500 bottle list. (Name withheld for fear of lynching) I mark my wines up anywhere from 50% to 1000% over wholesale, with the average being about 300%. Wine shop are often 100% over wholesale. There are a number of factors to consider. 1) The average markup on food in NYC is around 300% for fine dining restaurants 2)It costs a lot to store all of these wines in NYC where space is tight and expensive 3) It costs a lot to pay for glasses, decanters etc. all of which break constantly 4) A restaurant with a significant list must pay someone to build and maintain that list 5) Running a restaurant in NYC is unbelivably expensive, food, labor, rent et al. eat up almost 90% of your revenue IF you are running a tight ship All of that said, if you are at a restaurant that has a good list and someone who knows that list well you can find values. Ask the sommelier what the best buys are and they should be thrilled to help you. Usually the best buys are pet wines that the sommelier loves but are obscure. It is almost never the most inexpensive bottle. If you are in NYC and you find that the sommelier will not lead you to a great bottle for less that $50 you are being ripped off. Fri Oct 17 02:42:34 -0700 2003 1090432 0 WineGuy 2 1090648 While we have a sommelier captive here, I have to ask you, what do you think of the BYOB (w/ corkage fee) phenomenon? And what's the best way to negotiate that territory as the guest? Is offering a sip of some rare or allocated wine to the sommelier nice/appreciated or is it simply presumptuous? What's your biggest peeve as the sommelier? Fri Oct 17 03:15:45 -0700 2003 1090647 0 Reece 3 1090699 This would be a discussion for Not About Food as it does not pertain specifically to Manhattan chow. If you'd like to continue, please do so over there. Thanks. Fri Oct 17 13:48:08 -0700 2003 1090648 2 The Chowhound Team 2 1090655 This is a pet peeve of mine so I have to be REAL honest here and say that I don't buy the excuses listed for such horrible mark-ups on wine (this is NYC and space is tight and expensive, etc. etc.). Be honest and say that restaurants make an unbelievable profit from wine and alcohol and many times are pure and simply ripping the customer off for a mediocre bottle of wine. I am really tired of seeing wines that I know sell for $10 in the store sold for $46 at a restaurant. I think at the heart of the issue is greed and not expense for the wine, storage, etc. I am from Philly were we are truly blessed to have many many BYOB restaurants (with no corkage fees as well) so maybe I'm spoiled. But there is a well known restaurant here that charges $10 over cost for their wines (every night). My question is: if they can do it and make money then doesn't that mean everyone could do it (or at least be more reasonable with say 100% mark-up) and still make money? I think the answer is a definite yes. Wanna see wine prices drop in NYC? Create more BYOB's with little to no corkage fees for some competition and watch the prices fall. Fri Oct 17 08:51:31 -0700 2003 1090647 0 schpsychman 2 1090674 Thanks for your input and insight. I just posted a peevish note over on the Not About Food board (the Chowhound Team has us going back and forth from board to board here -- kinda confusing ;) ) saying that I won't go back to L'Impero because I feel they ripped me off. Wine markups seem different from food markups. Part of it is that I now know that I can go to Astor Place and pay $14 for the same bottle of wine I paid more than $50 for on Saturday night. That feels wrong. But with food I know I can't get the kind of meal I had at L'Impero at any other place. And yes, I understand about expensive NYC real estate, but the wine store has that problem also. It was a good wine, and that night I appreciated the sommelier steering me to it. I don't often spend that kind of money on wine, but I wanted to take advantage of the expertise of a sommelier at a good restaurant, and now I feel like I was scammed. Next time my instinct may be to find the cheapest swill on the list (without the sommelier's help) and do my more expensive wine drinking at home. Fri Oct 17 10:55:57 -0700 2003 1090647 0 Puddle