202950 Wed Aug 06 16:19:16 -0700 2003 97 18 Manhattan 0 1082136 On my visit to NYC last weekend, managed to get into Lupa after only a half hour wait at the door. There were five of us and after starting with a plate of aged prosciutto which melted in your mouth we each had a different pasta dish. Being Italian we are extremely picky when it comes to pasta especially any with tomato based sauces but I have to say that each and every dish was fantastic. The bucatini all'amatriciana were my favourite. We also had the ricotta gnocchi with sausage and fennel and the spaghetti alla carbonara. Another spaghetti dish (can't remember the name) was the pasta tossed with green olive oil, herbs, arugula, radicchio. Our only complaints had to do with their unwillingness to bend any "rules". For example, they would not substitute spaghetti for the bucatini, they would not leave any parmesan for us at the table, and when one of our party ordered biscotti and passito which apparently comes with 4 biscotti, they refused to toss in one more so that we could each have one. The waiter suggested ordering a second dessert. Is this type of thing typical for New York City??? Or is it just arrogance? Other than that, I thought the food was amazing. Would I return? Not necessarily...I'd probably try something else. Wed Aug 06 16:19:16 -0700 2003 0 mg 1 1082144 A friend used to wait tables there - it is definitely a Lupa thing. Arrogance maybe, standing by their food maybe - I just know that Mario, and Mark the Chef plate the food how THEY want it. I guess it's similar to how many restaurants now don't put salt and pepper on the table. My friend used to tell me how people would get PISSED at her, when it was actually the kitchen's policy - the funny thing is that it affected her tips. I love Lupa, so in my humble opinion "when in Rome . . .", but it's certainly not the only game in town. Wed Aug 06 16:30:14 -0700 2003 1082136 0 KenOnDean 2 1082150 I love Lupa too -- a lot. But for Pete's sake, it's a cookie. The pasta/sauce thing I totally understand and respect, but -- one cookie?! Funny world. Wed Aug 06 16:36:47 -0700 2003 1082144 0 Marella 3 1082167 Would it be appropriate to have a plate of six oysters and to demand an extra oyster (assuming oysters could only be ordered at the applicable restaurant -- not Lupa) in multiples of half-dozens? Would it be appropriate to say that a diner would want an extra meatball at Tuscan or Rocco's, if the diner were sharing the meatballs as an appetizer? why shouldn't the diners order an extra helping of the meatballs? Would you go to McDonald's and demand an extra McNugget in your pack? When you're in France and eating at a bistro, how about demanding an extra escargot in your appetizer? Wed Aug 06 17:20:19 -0700 2003 1082150 0 cabrales 4 1082169 A cookie is different - since these are often small offerings from the restaurant (example - Picholene, who by the way once packed up extra cookies for me to take home to my son) and since many diners are very full at meal's end and often share dessertd or want a small taste I think the extra cookie is simply a NICE (we all remember about being nice?) gesture - particularly when you are paying top, top dollars. Wed Aug 06 17:25:52 -0700 2003 1082167 0 Faren 5 1082174 With all respect: -- Lupa does not require diners to pay "top, top dollars". -- "Picholene [sic -- it's Picholine], who by the way once packed up extra cookies for me to take home to my son" -- Were they mignardises that you could not finish? If they were, they would have been thrown out anyhow (hopefully, restaurants don't reuse uneaten mignardises). Why not given them to you. More fundamentally, any restaurant, including Picholine, may choose to provide "extras" (i.e., "be nice", as you put it). However, the flip side of not making that choice is not "bad service" or "not being nice", as I have discussed in another part of this thread. Even if these are additional cookies, Picholine made that choice and that was fine. However, with all respect, were I the diner in question, I would not have asked for that unless GASTRONOMICALLY there was something very special about the Picholine cookies that I could not have replicated in cookies purchased from a separate venue for a child. I appreciate diners would act differently in that situation, and am just noting what my own reaction would have been. :) -- Note that an extra biscotti was 25% more than the four biscottis ordinarily on a plate. Given four diners, I wonder why two plates of biscotti were not purchased. Why focus on the failure of the restaurant to be willing to give 25% of the second plate for free, and why not ask why the diners were unwilling to pay for the 100% of the second plate (if biscottis are so small and other diners could have eaten another biscotti). Wed Aug 06 17:33:46 -0700 2003 1082169 0 cabrales 6 1082179 Where I come from (Ottawa, Canada) a $17 plate of pasta which translates to about $25 Canadian - Lupa is on the very high end of the price scale. But from what I gather, that is considered "reasonable" in NYC. New Yorkers would be able to eat at our most expensive restaurants for a laughable amount! Wed Aug 06 17:46:11 -0700 2003 1082174 0 mg 7 1082186 I have eaten at Toque!, Lumiere (gastro and bar), West and other top Canadian restaurants at very good prices, taking into account the exchange rate. If I could only restrain myself on the wine order.... I'd like visit Susur Lee's place sometime soon too :) Wed Aug 06 18:00:54 -0700 2003 1082179 0 cabrales 7 1082198 with the exception of SPECIALS, pastas are $11 - $13 at Lupa.. Wed Aug 06 18:21:20 -0700 2003 1082179 0 jesse 8 1082283 Sorry. My mistake but it's still not inexpensive by my standards. NYC standard is obviously different. Thu Aug 07 13:55:40 -0700 2003 1082198 0 mg 7 1082248 Pastas are nowhere near $17 at Lupa. In fact, even most of the entrees are under $17. Thu Aug 07 10:10:32 -0700 2003 1082179 0 DC 7 1082363 thats a bunch of bull- find me a place that matches lupa's quality and price. you wont be able to do it- Lupa is a serious a bargain. Fri Aug 08 15:00:15 -0700 2003 1082179 0 josh L 8 1082364 Or do all you guys want to say it a few dozen more times, just in case there's someone in Outer Mongolia who hasn't gotten the message yet? Fri Aug 08 15:10:11 -0700 2003 1082363 0 E. Nuff 9 1082367 Yes, let's all agree to disagree and move on to giving each other insights into new and great chow! I respect all your opinions and always love your posts and suggestions. If we (notice I'm including myself in this) keep this up we'll all have to meet for Batali therapy. Fri Aug 08 15:27:08 -0700 2003 1082364 0 Faren 10 1082384 If the meeting is at Lupa, count me in! Sun Aug 10 14:06:05 -0700 2003 1082367 0 Cloudy 8 1082368 As I said, the food was incredible and I never stated that the service was bad. All I was questioning was their stance on a few things that IN MY OPINION were a little unreasonable. You may or may not agree and everyone has their own threshold as to what they consider acceptable when dining out. As for price/quality of the FOOD, compared to what else I saw in NY, I agree with you. Fri Aug 08 16:28:49 -0700 2003 1082363 0 mg 7 1082365 yes, Ottawa is high on my list of places I must travel to for food. great to know that prices are low. or great idea!instead of waiting on line for Lupa, I can go to Ottawa! or Ottawa? is that a new Japanese place in the East Village? Fri Aug 08 15:10:36 -0700 2003 1082179 0 Bill L. 6 1082184 Well for sure there are many restaurants more expensive than Lupa's but a $17.00 pasta is not cheap- at least not in my world. As to Picholene - I did not ask for extras, I simply told the server I couldn't eat them and would take them home to my son because he was little and they were so cute(normally I don't take home cookies) When the server returned with a very prettily wrapped package he told me they had put in a few extra. When you go to top rated restaurants you should act classy and be treated in the same manner. Picholene has class, Lupa's from my experience does not exhibit this quality under most circumstances and I don't need to pay to be treated poorly. If I want rude treatment all I need is the price of a token (yes I kow its now a card) But to each their own! Wed Aug 06 17:55:47 -0700 2003 1082174 0 Faren 7 1082358 If you look on the menu, you'll see that there's not a single pasta over $14 and many for $11, which is about the same price as just about any Italian restaurant in NYC. The price/performance ratio is unbeatable. The only pastas that cost $17 are specials. Link: http://www.luparestaurant.com/menu-dinner.html Fri Aug 08 12:13:59 -0700 2003 1082184 0 Peter Cuce 8 1082366 Also, a $17 pasta (assuming that were the price) is cheap in New York, if served as an entree. With all respect, I find it a rather dubious argument for a visitor from another country to assert that his 'home' currency is weak, and therefore he considers the price in his 'home' country and uses as comparison how much a similar dish would be at a restaurant in his 'home' country. :0 BTW, I disagree with US tourists' observations that prices in Europe are expensive because of the euro/USD exchange rate. They go to restaurants, and then complain about it. Either don't go, don't eat or don't complain. :) Fri Aug 08 15:24:53 -0700 2003 1082358 0 cabrales 1 1082146 "For example, they would not substitute spaghetti for the bucatini... and when one of our party ordered biscotti and passito which apparently comes with 4 biscotti, they refused to toss in one more so that we could each have one." There are other potential reasons that a restaurant may not want to substitute spaghetti for bucatini. Although I am not knowledgeable about Italian cuisine, apparently I am told that different pasta shapes are particularly good pairings (e.g., texture, capture of saucing ingredients) with certain sauces. I am not indicating that was Lupa's actual motivation for refusing the pasta substitution; I am merely saying that *might* have been a relevant factor. On the restaurant's refusal to "toss in" another biscotti, I'd have to say I have never asked for a larger portion of a dish from a restaurant. I personally don't believe a diner should feel entitled to have a larger sized dish (25% larger in this case) for the same price. Why should a restaurant be obligated to do it? Why couldn't two diners have split a biscotti (appreciating biscotti are hard to break and might be useful in longer form, e.g., for dipping in coffee, if the diner desired)? It would have been nice if Lupa has consented to your (what I consider unusual) request, but I don't believe it need have done that by any means. :) I'd be interested in knowing what restaurants in Belgium the diner would ask such things of. If you'd gone to De Karmeliet (I appreciate Lupa does not offer cuisine at the level of this three-star in Brugges), would you ask for that extra sizing of the dessert? I think not. Wed Aug 06 16:32:49 -0700 2003 1082136 0 cabrales 2 1082148 Apologies, upon reread, you appear to be Italian diners. Would you ask for that extra biscotti in an Italian restaurant? If so, at what types of Italian restaurants? Wed Aug 06 16:34:31 -0700 2003 1082146 0 cabrales 2 1082152 I appreciate your comments. I agree that the restaurant is not obliged to toss in another biscotti, substitute pasta types (fyi - bucatini is a long pasta like spaghetti with a hole) or fulfill any request of a customer. However, a place that bills itself as a Roman trattoria (in Italy, a trattoria is not an upscale restaurant) should not be taking itself so seriously and should be ready to make a customer feel at home which is what, IMHO, a trattoria is all about. BTW - the person who requested the extra biscotti was born and raised in Rome and has spent his life eating at trattorias. He thought it was odd that his request was NOT fulfilled. Wed Aug 06 16:41:15 -0700 2003 1082146 0 mg 3 1082217 Then I assume the friend asked for a biscotto, and not a biscotti, as biscotti is plural and biscotto is singular Sorry, couldn't resist :-) Wed Aug 06 21:36:09 -0700 2003 1082152 0 Nina W. 3 1082362 They do take themselves seriously and it relects in the wonderful food. I wish more restaurants in NYC would take themselves as seriously as LUPA. Fri Aug 08 14:53:13 -0700 2003 1082152 0 josh L 1 1082156 Lupa is a pretty cool place. Work with them and they will work with you. Substituting spaghetti for the bucatini? That's a reach in my book. I fear you just turned the staff off from that point. Pity. Wed Aug 06 16:51:30 -0700 2003 1082136 0 Steve 1 1082166 Many upscale restaurants will gladly accomodate small requests from its diners. At L'Imperio they happily substituted a vegetable. At Arezzo they happily supplied my mother, who eats like a bird and has that bad habit of then always wanting what's on everone else's plate, an extra biscotti and several other items (without her even requesting it). I really like the food at Batali's restaurants but I think arrogance has become the prevailing culture at his establishments and that for me ruins the whole experience. The other thing I really, really, don't understand (and I recently raised this) is the prevailing willingness of NYers to tolerate bad and arrogant service from pricy establishments. I just spent 4 days in New Orleans and ate at several of their top rated restaurants (Spicer's Bayona, Gabrielle etc) and I have to say that these restauranters know how to treat their clients. NYers should stop excusing and tolerating arrogance and bad service in NY! Wed Aug 06 17:19:52 -0700 2003 1082136 0 Faren 2 1082170 With all respect, of course a restaurant (like L'Impero) is free to choose to accommodate requests for substitution of products in a dish. However, I do not view an unwillingness to substitute something (even at Lupa) as necessarily indicative of arrogance. A chef conceived of a dish in a certain manner. It is not arrogant for a restaurant to want to accord respect to that. It is a choice a restaurant is entitled to make. With all respect, from my subjective perspective, an unwillingness to substitute or to create special off-menu dishes is not a negative sign on service or a sign of arrogance. It is a position a restaurant may legitimately choose to take. Would any of the diners at Lupa in question ask for a substitution of pasta at a Michelin three-star in Italy? Of course not. That's why the diner uses the paradigm of a trattoria. However, even though Lupa might be marketed as such, I don't believe it is fair to equate it to such an Italian-specific institution. I don't believe that comparison is necessarily justified. I'd have to say that, as a general matter, I believe that restaurants are perceived as arrogant when they are not. Now, Babbo seating/greeting practices aside (let's leave that aside, as I believe the Lupa practices are very different from those at Babbo), diners' mistaken sense of entitlement in my assessment often results in their perception of restaurants' arrogance, unjustifiably. :) Special treatment and menu flexibility are luxuries that are wonderful, if granted by a restaurant. They are not necessities for good service :) Wed Aug 06 17:26:58 -0700 2003 1082166 0 cabrales 3 1082180 I agree that a refusal does not always denote arrogance, but my many experiences with Batali's places (and you know from reading this board I'm not alone) is that they are arrogant. The reports of rude service and heavyhandedness are legion. Maybe you politely explain why you won't substitute the pasta (fair enough) but you know the place is arrogant if they won't leave the parmesean cheese -or supply you with a small dish of it. I have eaten and lived all over the world and have asked for small things like that from even three star restaurants - and most comply or politely explain why it can't be done. In return I am a model citizen/diner - I'm polite, tip well and ALWAYS call to cancel if I can't make it. I even call if detained to inform the restaurant and make sure its ok. Wed Aug 06 17:47:18 -0700 2003 1082170 0 Faren 4 1082181 I agree. The reason I go to any Italian restaurant is for the whole experience of having a decent meal, at a reasonable price at a place that has a great atmoshpere. If all I wanted was great Italian food I'd stay at home and cook it myself. Then I'm never disappointed. Wed Aug 06 17:50:53 -0700 2003 1082180 0 mg 4 1082202 I occasionally dine in a place on LI called Bacci. A good restaurant I am very hesitant to call it. I don't care for the place at all, but I go with friends that think it's "the bomb". Not everybody is a chowhound. They seem to force that pepper grinder on you and look at you funny when you not only say "No, thank you" but have to put your hand up to stop them from actually grinding some on your plate, like you're weird that you don't partake in the 'in thing to do', despite that, thankfully, it has become passé in most places. When it comes to cheese, which most of there dishes can use all the help they can get, from cheese and other missing ingredients, like care, they come around after you have already not only started your meal but are practically half way done and ask if you would like some cheese. The grater is hand cranked and taken away after two small cranks, a light dusting. I have repeatedly asked for more cheese and gotten ill looks from anyone that comes around serving the stuff. A very arrogant ill look. To the point of that I have gotten up and taken the grater off the buss table on which it sits and cranked out my own cheese to my liking. Arrogance in a quick service restaurant in the 'burbs. LUPA, I love you. Wed Aug 06 18:36:13 -0700 2003 1082180 0 Natasa Sevoleva 2 1082177 I totally agree with you. Wed Aug 06 17:37:14 -0700 2003 1082166 0 Toot 2 1082260 Restaurants are BUSINISSES....they are in business to make money. Batali/Bastianich business model dictates that they serve food to you the way they want to. If you want an exception order a '97 Ornellaia and they will probably cook you a shoe. Batali has many times responded to critisism (although not here, must be scared) in magazine publications. For example the Grateful Dead they blast in Babbo drives some people crazy, But he very clearly says that its his vision of what the restaurant is, and thats the way its going to be. You can't complain about his vision, You could complain about the staff's attitude, especially at Lupa. Just because Mario has this vision does not mean they need to be a pain in the ass about it.....Again, If you don't like it go somewhere else....there is a long line of people waiting to take your place....IMHO I'll bet Babbo wins the Pepsi challenge against any italian restaurant in this country. Thu Aug 07 11:00:53 -0700 2003 1082166 0 Cpalms 3 1082279 As I keep saying I have no quarrel with the quality of the food, it its the service and general disdain for his patrons I object to. And your right, I don't have to go there anymore and I don't. As PT Barnum (?) said "There's a sucker born every minute" Well, I'm not willing to pay, even if its great food, to be treated in a haphazaed, disdainful fashion. Thu Aug 07 12:55:23 -0700 2003 1082260 0 Faren 3 1082289 How could you say that Babbo is the best Italian in the country? Thu Aug 07 15:04:40 -0700 2003 1082260 0 Rob 4 1082353 if its not, what is?, I'd love to know.... Fri Aug 08 09:21:55 -0700 2003 1082289 0 Cpalms 1 1082176 On a trip to LUPA, one of the first of many trips I was to take, I was seated near a table of people that loudly exclaimed to the waitress that they are "in the business" and would like to know what all the "hype" is about. The waitress was more than friendly with them and asked what they do. They replied that they own a pizzeria. I judge not there dress, but perhaps their expectations. Red sauce Italian LUPA is not. Although it is "styled" in the manner of a Roman Trattoria, where, perhaps, by a loose translation, the owner and staff will cater to your needs, it is still a Manhattan restaurant that is packed to the rafters seven days and nights a week. If every diner was to custom order a dish to suit there personal preference on how or what a dish is to them on any particular visit, I'm sure it wouldn't take long for it to amount to a short order 'diner style' like hectic 'slap a pile of food on a plate and serve it fast' type of place, with just about every other table getting something wrong with their order, that can be found just about anywhere in every corner of America today, the least of which would be diners and pizzerias. Sticking to what they have perfected will, ok, should, be promising, if not the opposite of insulting (Not that I believe you were). The purpose of LUPA, if Mario explains himself properly when asked, is to represent the foods of Italy, but this is "his take on it". Just as Mario’s Babbo serves beef cheek ravioli and gets criticism that it doesn't exist in Italy. It is *his* take on it. The lack of salt shakers on the tables is by far my favorite aspect of LUPA. I am hard pressed to find a restaurant with a chef in the kitchen that fully seasons food. But if sodium intake is a personal issue, please be forewarned that seasoning includes salt as well as other ingredients. For the additional biscotti, it shouldn't have been a big deal, but, as Steve posted below, “Substituting spaghetti for the bucatini? That's a reach in my book. I fear you just turned the staff off from that point. Pity.” Truly, a Pity. Wed Aug 06 17:37:11 -0700 2003 1082136 0 Natasa Sevoleva 2 1082190 That's beautiful..Pizzeria guys "in the business" asking what all the fuss is about? Hey, Mario is simply not going to please everybody. The guy is doing in in the greatest city in the world but he knows nothing....Yeah, right. No you know in your little pizza parlor. Mario has put in the time and has more knowledge on Italy than anybody I have ever heard. I defy anyone out there to give me the name of anybody who knows more about this suisine - including native Italians!Let's give him is due! There's simply always going to be those that want to get an edge. Since I am certain the pasta is all cooked to order here, it's not a simple issue of switching from one par-boiled pasta to another one. This is not the Olive Garden. And, for that matter, when you're charging a good price for each pasta dish, I'd think they'd want each offering to stand on its own. Perhaps to become become a "favorite" so to speak; A destination menu item. So long as Mario honors each person's reservation and treats everybody the same at the front door, I say good for him for not substituting one pasta for another. It's his place, he's worked hard developing each and every dish and he has a reason for combining one pasta with the appropriate topping. That's what a diner is going there for isn't it? His skills - so, Just enjoy it or go someplace else! And, as far as those pizzeria experts....Can you guys spell the word jealous? Unbelievable.... Wed Aug 06 18:08:32 -0700 2003 1082176 0 Chuck 3 1082192 While I have not revisited Otto, the pizza I had the only time I have been there was pretty unappealing. I have discussed this at length in another venue, but, with all respect to Batali and noting that he appears to have been trying to re-jigger his pizza recipe since I visited, I can't say his pizzas are good-tasting. :( Note I am obviously not a pizza expert; I do not have knowledge about pizzas or other Italian foods, among other things. :) Wed Aug 06 18:11:29 -0700 2003 1082190 0 cabrales 4 1082205 The guanciale pizza is quite good. Wed Aug 06 19:04:18 -0700 2003 1082192 0 Steve 3 1082245 I would put up some people that I have lived with and others that have cooked for me in Itlay against Batali anyday of the week. If you think he knows more about Italian cuisne than anyone in Italy you are kidding your self. Don't know of your travels through Italy, but I have yet to eat at an Italian place here in America that beats the best I have eaten in Italy. Places here may be close but not quite. I am not saying that Batali does not know his stuff, he does but I think its extreme to say that he knows more about Italian cusine than the natives of Italy. Thu Aug 07 09:42:01 -0700 2003 1082190 0 Rob 4 1082249 Let's let Mario speak for himself about his food;s Italian-ness: "At Babbo you will rarely find your favorite regional classics as you have eaten them in osterie, trattorie and ristoranti throughout Italy. What you will find is delicious simple food that hopefully tastes as good as you remember from your last visit to Italy because we strive in the Italian fashion to shorten the time and distance any ingredient spends from the soil, or the water, or the air, to the plate. We import pasta, Parmigiano Reggiano, balsamic vinegar, sea salt and Prosciutto San Daniele because they are so distinct and virtually indispensable to the creation of a great Italian meal. We fervently believe in the inherent quality, freshness and greatness of our regions ingredients purchased from local, predominantly organic, farmers and friends, many of them from forgotten or heirloom varietals. We are proud to make most of our salumi, including guanciale, pancetta, lardo, coppa and soppressata. Our cheeses come from all over Italy, with one great exception from the Hudson Valley. Our desserts are like none you have ever eaten in Italy, yet they feel and taste totally Italian." Thu Aug 07 10:14:17 -0700 2003 1082245 0 Nina W. 5 1082252 My quarrel with Batali's ventures is not the quality of the food but the overall service and tone of these places, which over the years with his growing celebrity and increasing absences have gotten worse (although I do believe the chef at Lupa is heavyhanded with the salt on the meat dishes) I used to go to Babbo's frequently during its first years of existence and the staff was so , so pleasant - it is like night and day from what it is now. And my feeling is that a dining out experience is the whole package and I'm simply not going to expend my hard earned $$$$ to be treated (quite often) in what I feel in an off-hand, "aren't you lucky to be here" fashion and sometimes out and out rude fashion and I don't care how good the food is! There is no reasona restaurant can't provide both and many equally good places do and that is where i'll spend my dollars. Patronizing a place with attitude is a bad consuner practice because it only reinforces it. Thu Aug 07 10:24:37 -0700 2003 1082249 0 Faren 5 1082257 thats a great quote - why don't most chefs get it? Thu Aug 07 10:43:01 -0700 2003 1082249 0 josh L 6 1082271 Part of that same quotation that I left out by accident: "The philosophy as easy as it is straight forward - use the best local ingredients as simply as possible and serve them with flourish and joy. As a Tuscan cooks in Chianti, as a Neapolitan cooks on the Amalfi coast, as a Sicilian cooks in Pantelleria, at Babbo we cook as an Italian might in the Mid-Atlantic/Hudson Valley region." Thu Aug 07 11:56:26 -0700 2003 1082257 0 Nina W. 7 1082280 "The philosophy as easy as it is straight forward - use the best local ingredients as simply as possible and serve them with flourish and joy." The first, last, and only time I actually ate at Babbo our food was served cold and late (after a wait of over an hour after our reservation time!) with a flourish of pure arrogance and attitude from the waitstaff and an very apparent joy at making sport of my Japanese relatives' less-then-perfect English. When I wrote to Mr. Batali about the particularly shameful way the host had acted to my father-in-law (in response to a very simple question of when we might expect to be seated, he said, in some sort of European accent, "I can't understand a word you're saying. Doesn't ANYONE in your party speak English?" and very ostentatiously turned his back and walked away), I received what was essentially a form letter to the effect that they take such complaints "very seriously" and that the staff member in question would be dealt with. The next time I reluctantly set foot in Babbo (I was with some other friends from Japan who wanted to go), I saw the same host looking at my friends with exactly the same haughty and snotty look and manner, and I promply turned around and walked out. Frankly, I'd sooner spit in the vaunted Mario's face than spend a single solitary dime in one of his restaurants again. IMO he's everything that's wrong with the current NYC dining scene wrapped up in one arrogant self-important package. Thu Aug 07 13:10:02 -0700 2003 1082271 0 Detroit-NYC Al 8 1082284 Thank you! For some reasons my fellow NYers are so enamoured with Batali they seem to think it is an honor to pay for rudeness and arrogance. I'm sorry you all were treated so poorly in a city that does have many wonderful restaurants that provide excellent food and service. Thu Aug 07 14:04:36 -0700 2003 1082280 0 Faren 9 1082290 Babbo and Lupa are probably the best and most innovative Italian cooking in NYC. While the host at Babbo sounds awful, by boycotting you are without a doubt missing out on wonderful food. Thu Aug 07 15:09:26 -0700 2003 1082284 0 josh L 10 1082300 You are totally missing the point - its not the food its the service! I've easten at both many times and over the years the attitude and service has become so obnoxious that I simply don;t care about missinf the wonderful food - I can go elsewhere - this board is littered with dozens of complaints about the service and really nasty attitude. I just won't pay for bad service, that's not part of my dining contract. Thu Aug 07 15:47:26 -0700 2003 1082290 0 Faren 11 1082308 I don't think the board is "littered with" Lupa bad service threads/posts. There may be a few here and there but compared with the quantity of positive posts, I think it's on par with any restaurant. I don't think Lupa should be lumped in with Babbo, because Jason Denton is a partner at Lupa and influences the mostly gracious service quite a bit. Thu Aug 07 16:28:22 -0700 2003 1082300 0 Peter Cuce 12 1082311 That may be true, as I've never eaten at Lupa. But the fact remains that the self-important Mario is involved, and the attitude is much the same "you're lucky just to be here" crap as at Babbo, as shown by their resistence to quite simple customer requests. Since Mario also seems to think it's fine and dandy to employ people who are disdainful, rude, and in my case, borderline racist, to customers, I see no reason to put any more $$ into his pockets. There are plenty of restaurants in NYC with great food where I, and my friends, will be warmly welcomed and well-treated. Like many others here I frankly find the defense of Batali's restaurants nasty service practices rather shocking. Thu Aug 07 16:40:07 -0700 2003 1082308 0 Detroit-NYC Al 13 1082312 I've never had bad service at Lupa in approximately 10 visits, and the hosts and hostesses have been unfailingly polite. Occasionally one of the servers will be a little strange, but as I said above, at about the same rate as any other restaurant. I think you ignored my point which is that Lupa shouldn't be lumped into the Batali fold, since it's only a 1/3 Batali production. Thu Aug 07 16:44:36 -0700 2003 1082311 0 Peter Cuce 13 1082361 I've been to Lupa tons of times and Babbo 4 times and I never have received bad service at either one. Lupa in particular employs knowledgeable men and women who are passionate about food. Yes, I've been forced to wait once or twice but instead of getting irriated I get a glass of wine and soak in the mood and chat with the bartender. Fri Aug 08 14:48:21 -0700 2003 1082311 0 josh L 11 1082309 The attitude is a young hip thing. The servers and host are mostly young and hip. It is the Village. Most don't understand. And that's the point (the point of the young hipsters). If food is what you're after, then the service is irrelevant. (Boy, am I gonna get slack for that one). I point out this post (third and fourth paragraph - the rest is an argument): http://www.chowhound.com/boards/manhat29/messages/70642.html Thu Aug 07 16:32:02 -0700 2003 1082300 0 Natasa Sevoleva 12 1082319 What????? As one who has spent a great deal of time in the Village (as you can tell from my e-mail address) young and hip does'nt mean rude and arrogant and if it does Mario should go back to hiring the nice round people who used to staff Babbo when it first opened, or all those not so young and hip diners who can afford his prices will ultimately get tired of hip rudeness. But you don't mean to excuse rudenes just because its coming out of the mouth of someone who is hip and young? Thu Aug 07 17:28:31 -0700 2003 1082309 0 Faren 13 1082327 I have a problem in most places I enter for food or otherwise these days. It's the "next generation" they keep telling me. The same as the last generation said, etc. I walk into a Carvel with my nephew and get a look from the ice cream server no different than that of a corpse. That bratty little kid ice cream server is dragging his/her feet and not speaking a word and copping an attitude. So? I got frustrated at first, decided to boycott the place, and had my nephew scream for soft ice cream at Friendly's (please do not question *why* I go to these places, the nephew likes it, I like the nephew). But as the link I provided above, if you work at it, you may win them over - for life even. If this isn't your thing, and you believe that anyone walking thru the door deserves the same exact treatment as anyone else walking thru the door then Al di La it is. (I agree with you by the way). But I couldn't care less if todays kids waiting tables cop an attitude anymore. I like the food, as you state you do as well, and I cope. If I gotta ruin my day and evening with caring about every nasty waitress that comes my way, I might as well stay home and crack open a can of Alpo and eat it with a dull spoon. Hey, at least it's better than the Fruit Loops and mustard I had for breakfast. And today it seems, sadly, that young and hip DOES mean rude and arrogant. LUPA and Babbo are NOT the only places that hire this type of employee. Many a food service establishment have I walked into and gotten the same from even ‘older’ employees, if not from the owners. Bad day? No. Just the way they are. If these are not your type of places, and I understand, then do as you do and do not frequent them. I will continue to ignore crappy people in every aspect of my life if just for keeping my own sanity and dine where I find good food, despite service. BTW, I see, by a search on these boards, you push Brooklyn a lot in almost every post on the Manhattan board about LUPA and Babbo, and even others. You even state things that are irrelevant to the topics just to push Brooklyn, and a few places you really like in Brooklyn, such as Al di LA. I admire your determination to make Brooklyn what it is in some peoples mind. Keep it up. I might even join you some day! Thu Aug 07 18:23:11 -0700 2003 1082319 0 Natasa Sevoleva 14 1082330 Your post totally cracked me up! I guess because I live in Brooklyn and eat in Manhattan and Brooklyn I freely compare retaurants in the two - no reason for Mahattan Hounds not to cross bourough lines (no passport required). I agree that attitude can be found from the hot dog stand to the $150 meal, but I try to patronize places where I can get food and good service and in turn I reciprocate by being a considerate diner. I've had great experiences in Town, Arezzo, L'Imperio, Blue Hill (and in some of those Brooklyn restaurants) etc etc. Anyway, I enjoy your posts, even when I don't agree- and that's what's so nice about this site. Well got to go and eat now! Thu Aug 07 18:35:42 -0700 2003 1082327 0 Faren 4 1082251 I totally agree. I lived for a number of years in Florence and go back frequently and as good as batali's food is there is still a huge difference. And that's ok and doesn't make the food les enjoyable, But honestly I think since he's looking for the authentic italian experience send his staff to witness the incredibly nice service whether at a trattoria or at a 3 star restaurent - honestly the only rude service I've ever experienced in Italy that come close to Batali's ventures was at Cipriaini's in Venice (at their hotel) and I think of them as Americans anyway. However, if you are up for a trip into Brooklyn do go to Aliseo's on Vanderilt in Prospect Hts. - a small but pretty place run by a man from the Adriatic - kind of a cross between a Tratorria and Rosticerria - unbelievable wines from the Marche (I think I've got the area right) and outstanding tastes of Italy that will transport you to that country. The owner is on the premises, does the cooking, and has an incredible passion for his cuisine. if you go and like it, then also go to Al di La in Park Slope (Venetian) and to Vini Locanda e oili (Tuscon down to the saltless bread) in Clinton Hill on Gates - all run by itlalians and as authentic as you'll get in NYC. Thu Aug 07 10:14:41 -0700 2003 1082245 0 Faren 5 1082270 I lived in Florence as well. Couldn't agree more with what you said. I wish I was in Florence right now for some lunch. Instead I will be suffering in the financial district with the crap that passes for food down here. Thu Aug 07 11:50:20 -0700 2003 1082251 0 Rob 5 1082274 Al di La and Vini & Oli are definitely great finds (I think both are among the best Italians in the city, including all of Manhattan). However, I would NOT recommend going to Aliseo's. It was probably the worst food experience I've had since I've been in NY for 9 years. Start with the fact that they only had 2 entrees that night (one of which I ordered, the lamb, was about 3 ounces of overcooked leg of lamb, no accompaniments whatsoever, literally served on a bread plate - for $16!! - ridiculous!!). Also, we ordered an appetizer meat plate, which consisted of unbelievably thickly sliced prosciutto (yuck!), a few apples and two small slices of cheese for $14. Secondly, the owner walked around the restaurant singing all night - maybe if he concentrated a little less on being the center of attention, and more on his food (or lack thereof) and his meat slicing abilities (or lack thereof), better meals could be had. Thu Aug 07 12:28:00 -0700 2003 1082251 0 DC 6 1082275 And I'll add - I love Al Di La, and have never been disappointed there in many visits. But my couple of meals at Locanda Vini & Olii have been pretty poor. Food wasn't so good, and they have a big 'tude problem. Thu Aug 07 12:32:56 -0700 2003 1082274 0 Nina W. 7 1082278 Well, I disagree, but I think there is a huge 'tude double standard going on between what is acceptable in the Bouroughs and Manhattan. If you go to some hyped retaurant like Lupa or Babbo's and they charge huge sums of $ (which suddenly is not much cause we're in Manhattan) they keep you waiting, oversalt your food, refuse to give you more paresean for your pasta if that is your particular taste, seat you at a table you can barely keep your plate on, won't accomodate a single request - well than this s just part of the wonderful experience everyone is willing to pay for. But Brooklyn is judged by a totally different standard. There the chefs/owners are expected to have very low prices (despite very high rents and costs), and are judged by very American standards of tastes. Aliseo's which now has many more entrees etc and Vini are two very authentic (modern) Italian restaurants. I lived for many years in Florence and have eaten all over Italy with my local friends and while Batali's food is very good, these places are far more authentic, if that's what you really want. Ma cosi e. Thu Aug 07 12:47:25 -0700 2003 1082275 0 Faren 8 1082287 http://www.chowhound.com/boards/manhat/messages/77696.html http://www.chowhound.com/boards/manhat/messages/77696.html Thu Aug 07 14:28:45 -0700 2003 1082278 0 Natasa Sevoleva 8 1082292 Babbo and Lupa are not overpriced at all. Both restaurants serve the highest and freshest quality foods and good stuff costs money. I think Lupa is the best bargain in NY or maybe the USA. Where else can you get such wonderful mostly organic high quality food from small purveyors for 13 dollars for a pasta and 17 dollars for a whole orata fish How much do you think you should pay? Thu Aug 07 15:16:47 -0700 2003 1082278 0 josh L 9 1082295 Yeah, I have to agree here. I have enjoyed every meal I've had at Lupa, and I've walked away every time thinking it was a great deal. Thu Aug 07 15:23:31 -0700 2003 1082292 0 Nina W. 9 1082334 I agree the two are not over-priced. SEPARATELY, I WOULD LIKE TO STATE MY FERVENT BELIEF THAT A RESTAURANT CAN CHOOSE TO PRICE AT ANY LEVEL IT WISHES. High *absolute* prices (or high prices relative to other restaurants) do not mean the restaurant's cuisine is **OVER**priced. It depends on the capabilities of the chef, among other things. I'm not applying this second paragraph to Babbo or Lupa, necessariy. Merely making a more general point in this second paragraph. :) Thu Aug 07 19:09:31 -0700 2003 1082292 0 cabrales 7 1082313 Sorry to hear it - I personally think that Vini and Oli is some of the most inventive Italian being served in all of New York City - and I have had nothing but great service from Catherine and Francois (the owners). Further, I love the setting . . . In fact, I'm going there again tonight and can't wait. Thu Aug 07 16:44:56 -0700 2003 1082275 0 DC 8 1082322 I totally agree and in fact I think that some people don;t like it because for all the talk about wanting "authenticity" it may be too authentic for some. When I hear people complaiing that VIni's bread is unsalted and then talking about authenticity I wonder if they ever ate bread in Tuscany which is famous for its unsalted bread - which in all fairness some do not like - but authentic it is. Enjoy your meal there tonight! Thu Aug 07 17:55:53 -0700 2003 1082313 0 Faren 9 1082349 It's not "too authentic" for me - whatever that means. I've spent lots and lots of time in Italy, and I fail to see your point. My couple of meals at V & O were just plain mediocre - nothing to do with "authenticity" - just the food was nothing special. Fri Aug 08 04:14:38 -0700 2003 1082322 0 Nina W. 10 1082356 Well, in this we'll just have to agree to disagree Fri Aug 08 10:26:06 -0700 2003 1082349 0 Faren 6 1082341 I sort of like Aliseo despite the fact that it is so "quirky" (or maybe because of it). BTW they have expanded their dinner menu to have my normal platings (i.e. more choices and some vegetable with the meat). But I must admit that Aliseo was the first thing I thought about when reading the original post. I still remember the first time we ate there, they asked us if we wanted still or sparkling water. We said tap water please (we actually prefer NYC tap). Well they refused to serve it and instead gave us a bottle of some sort of still water. Now that's arrogance! (But, at least, not chutzpa, they had the decency to not charge us for it). So I'd say that if you want accommodations to the menu, stay away from Aliseo. Thu Aug 07 22:38:19 -0700 2003 1082274 0 bobjbkln 7 1082342 WHen Aliseo's first opened they serve the bottled water - I think they were trying to do things exactly as they would in Italy -but for all that NYers are always saying they want authentic when they get it they don't like it. Anyway the bottled water is free for everyone. Also they are very accomodating - they will give you a half portion of the tagliere dishes or pastas etc. The menu is much bigger than it was and I think they make one of the best canneloni's I've ever tasted. Also they give a free plate of very good olives and serve a delicious flattish crunchy bread. The owner is from the Adriatic area and I find the food very authentic and very good. Thu Aug 07 22:54:30 -0700 2003 1082341 0 Faren 8 1082348 Nothing like a few sweeping generalizations. ALL NYers don't like authentic when they get it? Just because they don't want bottled water when there's perfectly good tap water to be had? Fri Aug 08 03:16:25 -0700 2003 1082342 0 Peter Cuce 2 1082282 Throughout my years I have eaten in many four star, extraordinary, great and flavor of the month restaurants in this country and in others. I find it surrealistic that people are defending the chef's whim as being paramount to a diner's reasonable request. If a change of the form of the starch on the plate cannot be accommodated, the chef is engaged in an act of masturbation rather than cooking. Any first class restaurant would accommodate such a request. Thu Aug 07 13:28:16 -0700 2003 1082176 0 Robert Deutsch 3 1082303 If you've really eaten at 4 star restaurants, you'd understand that there are certain protein items that simply don't mix and match with just any type of pasta. Now I know you are a gourmet, but tell me for instance what pasta goes with rabbit? According to your expertise, its anything you want. And the customer is always right. Perhaps spaghetti works for you? But, don't you think there's a reason its served with papadella in Italy? (so I can't spell) Now, Mario may not be as knowledgeable as you, but I know he's actually has been to Italy many times to learn his craft. I know because I've watched the shows and been there myself. I have also listened to him take the time to explain why he chooses one particular type of pasta over another when he creates a dish. But you already know all that don't you? Just wondering...If you go to have your portrait done, do you tell the artist how to do it? Why would you think you should be able to change a chef's dish? If you eat it and don't like it, then don't go back. Mario is an a artist - just listen to his love for Italian food. Listen to how he explains a regions, its assets, the whys and why nots of using each ingedient - the guy is amazing. You think Rocco has any of that knowledge? He's a joke compared to Mario. I say good for Mario for instructing his staff to say no to such rude requests. You're not talking short order cooking here. And, incidently, I never met the guy nor have I ever even eaten at any of his restaurants. This is an argument about common sense and appreciating a great chef and his creations. Its about appropriate customer behavior and experience his abilities. Thu Aug 07 16:10:39 -0700 2003 1082282 0 Chuck 4 1082318 The poster (mg) doesn't sound at rude at all and indeed if you want to compare Batali to an artist than look at the history of artists and muscisians; when these types were indeed hired for specific consumer consumption (that is artisits were kept by patrons) They did indeed, on many many ocessions, bend to the taste of their patrons. But a lesson in the history of the arts aside, no one is complaining about the QUALITY of Batali's talents as a chef - just about the inceasingly cocky and arrogant service at his establishments. The restaurant business when last I checked was still about service. And that combines the quality of the food with the actions of the staff, which put together equals the total dining experience! Thu Aug 07 17:20:52 -0700 2003 1082303 0 Faren 4 1082320 I have reached a point in my life where no one can tell me "what pasta to eat with my rabbit". Indeed, I agree, spaghetti would taste very different from pappardelle. But you are willing to abrogate you sense of taste to a chef you hold in high regard. I became involved in this discussion because a patron of a restaurant, who was spending her own money, wanted to substitute a pasta. It is not even a close call. When a restaurant cannot accommodate the reasonable request of it's patrons; when it assumes that it prepares a cuisine which is "correct" and by implication if you wish to modify the salt or pepper you are wrong; when it does not understand that it's measure of success is how happy it's patrons are, rather than maintaining a purity of cuisine. If that restaurant can succeed, they had better take mutton off the menu so as not to offend it's customers with a cannibalistic choice. Thu Aug 07 17:32:56 -0700 2003 1082303 0 Robert Deutsch 5 1082323 A friend of mine was getting married and had a meeting with the organist who would be playing for her. Since I was to sing at the wedding, I came along to rehearse with the organist briefly, and as we talked I found out that she had a PhD and a DMA and had played on some incredible organs around the world, and was a noted Bach scholar. So, we have the rehearsal and my friend chooses some pieces from selections the organist played (Bach, Handel, etc.), and when it comes time to choose a recessional, my friend says, "Well, I'd really like Elvis. Can you play that?" The organist could not, or would not, I'm not sure which. When one is paying a fee for a service, is the customer always right? Thu Aug 07 18:10:29 -0700 2003 1082320 0 Tara 6 1082325 Well, while your situation is not quite comparable to the restaurant business I will say thatwhen you pay for a service you should get what you want - if the person offering the service either can't or won't provide what the customer wants its time to amicably part company. And that is why Mario and I have now parted company - he can't politely provide service Thu Aug 07 18:18:26 -0700 2003 1082323 0 Faren 6 1082329 If your point is….. Was the organist correct in refusing to play music she felt beneath her? Of course the answer would be yes. She, has the right to her integrity. But the case is….. Should your friend walk down the aisle to music she does not want, because of the credentials of the musician? Should she than pay for the privilege? If it where your wedding, wouldn't you and your spouse want to select the music? When one pays for a service, one is entitled to get what one wants. That does not make him or her right. But it is correct. Thu Aug 07 18:34:43 -0700 2003 1082323 0 robert deutsch 1 1082227 I admire your chutzpah for asking for an extra biscotti... I've been in that situation before where a group of people is sharing a dish or a dessert and there's one less item than there are people. I've never even thought to ask if one more can be added to the dish (and I wouldn't mind paying extra!). Wed Aug 06 23:06:29 -0700 2003 1082136 0 JessicaSophia 1 1082286 Removing the Lupa context and focusing on the question of why an extra biscotto request from a diner at any restaurant should be honored to begin with (I believe it need not be), I copy a prior post that might have gotten obscured in the discussion below: Would it be appropriate to have a plate of six oysters and to demand an extra oyster (assuming oysters could only be ordered at the applicable restaurant -- not Lupa) in multiples of half-dozens? Would it be appropriate to say that a diner would want an extra meatball at Tuscan or Rocco's, if the diner were sharing the meatballs as an appetizer? why shouldn't the diners order an extra helping of the meatballs? Would you go to McDonald's and demand an extra McNugget in your pack? How about going to McDonald's and asking for an extra piece of cheese in one's cheeseburger? When a person orders pizza from a pizza delivery vendor, why not ask for a free topping when it is not offered? How about asking for an extra 25% of the wings one orders, without paying for that extra %? When you're in France and eating at a bistro, how about demanding an extra escargot in your appetizer? I'd like to point to particular facts surrounding the diners' described sharing of their biscotti dessert: -- Four biscotti in a dessert sounds reasonable to me. If five people are sharing a single dessert, why does any restaurant have to accommodate? It would be like the young lady who goes into the house of the three bears with three dining companions and asking why there are only three bowls of porridge for four?! With all respect, all diners are entitled to share a dish. However, when they do that, they are hardly justified in complaining there isn't "enough to go around", no? -- I have asked previously why one of the five diners could not have broken off a piece of her biscotto (although they are small) to share with the fifth diner. Alternatively, why did she not take one bite of the biscotto and hand it to the fifth person. The typical bisotto is too lengthy to be taken in one bite. I have not yet received a response as to why these solutions were not acceptable to the diners. Thu Aug 07 14:27:15 -0700 2003 1082136 0 cabrales 2 1082293 You have a valid point but I should clarify that we weren't really trying to share one dessert. The person who ordered it was the only person who wanted to have dessert since we were pretty full and he asked how many biscotti you get. When the waiter stated that you get four my friend suggested adding one more so that each could have a taste. That's when the waiter said it could not be done and suggested getting a second order. Since no one else really wanted any, we didn't get a second order and only a couple of us actually tried his biscotti (fyi - we had a half each and my friend ate the rest!). We didn't "share" the dessert so to speak. My friend just wanted to let everyone taste it and didn't think it was unreasonable to request an extra biscotto. I don't think it's unreasonable either just as I don't think was the request to substitute spaghetti for bucatini. Restauranteurs tend to forget they are in the "service" industry. If all they want to do is showcase their cooking skills, they should do it at home. There's more to running a restaurant than good food. Thu Aug 07 15:18:08 -0700 2003 1082286 0 mg 3 1082299 We use to own a "high end" hot dog place in Pittsburgh. Why do I say high end? Because we had the hot dogs shipped in from NJ (6 to 1's - all beef -natural casing) If you know anything about the business, this is the top hot dog you can serve a customer and is just about the heaviest dog you can serve - Many hot dogs are as many as 10 to a pound. We charged $2.00 for the hot dog in the early 1990's. Anyway, there were other places in the town that served 2 hot dogs for $1.00 - One afternoon two well dressed young professional people came into the restaurant and ordered (1) hot dog and two glasses of water - I am not kidding.. They proceeded to ask me to cut the one hot dog in half and put different toppings on each half. I gave them their money back and suggested they try the 2 for $1.00 hot dog place in the 7-11. And, that's the first thing that came to my mind when you asked for one extra biscotti instead of just getting another order. Perhaps, your group should go elsewhere, too. Like the Olive Garden! Mario really doesn't need customers like you and you don't deserve him either. Thu Aug 07 15:43:00 -0700 2003 1082293 0 Chuck 4 1082306 Reasonable is relative. I agree that the request to split the hot dog in your case was unreasonable. Adding an extra biscotto when you've just had antipasti, pasta, two bottles of wine and spent $250 is not. ps - I've been in the restaurant business too (actually quite similar in style Lupa). I can have an opinion and it doesn't have to agree with yours. Thu Aug 07 16:19:52 -0700 2003 1082299 0 mg 5 1082333 "Adding an extra biscotto when you've just had antipasti, pasta, two bottles of wine and spent $250 is not." mg -- With all respect for your position, I don't think the question of whether it is reasonable to have provided/not the biscotto is related to how much you spent under the circumstances you describe. One of the following must be true: (1) it was unreasonable to ask for it under any circumstances, (2) it was reasonable to ask for it at any spending level, and (3) it was reasonable to ask for it after a certain spending level was exceeded, but not before. If you are arguing under (3), I don't think that $50/person at Lupa is the level that, for Lupa, causes you to be under (3). :) Thu Aug 07 18:53:52 -0700 2003 1082306 0 cabrales 6 1082345 I completely disagree, Cabby. It's a fucking COOKIE for god's sake. A table of 5 has dinner and they ask for ONE COOKIE extra and the restaurant says no? What kind of idiots are they, and I'm talking about the restaurant. They're in business to make and retain customers. Think of the goodwill they would have bought with that one stupid cookie, and how much ill will the denial of the cookie created. Instead of leaving a party of 5 with a nice feeling, they were miserly and shortsighted. Of course the restaurant isn't OBLIGATED to give them an extra cookie, but how stupid of them not to. I suppose they're not OBLIGATED to reasonably accomodate paying customers, either. And those customers are certainly not obligated to return. Thu Aug 07 23:14:52 -0700 2003 1082333 0 Nina W. 7 1082350 Nina -- With all respect, what makes you think that incremental goodwill is desired at every restaurant? Can't a restaurant choose as it sees fit, including to deny the cookie, including if that has the effect of reducing goodwill for a given customer? (I generally don't respond to people when they use expletives, but, since we are friends, made this exception) Frankly, any customer who is so unfocused on cuisine that the denial of a cookie would determine their willingness to revisit the restaurant may not be a desirable customer, depending on the restaurant. That's only my own assessment, of course :) Fri Aug 08 08:00:31 -0700 2003 1082345 0 cabrales 8 1082351 I said in my post that of course the restaurant isn't obligated to accomodate a customer. But in my opinion, that's a very foolish choice. A restaurant needs to make and keep customers in order to stay in business. People go to restaurants (myself included) for reasons other than cuisine alone. Service, attitude of staff, comfort, decor - just to name a few. The willingness on the part of the restaurant to accomodate its customers is a part of the whole experience. When that willingness is absent, the experience is diminished. Fri Aug 08 08:13:44 -0700 2003 1082350 0 Nina W. 9 1082352 Please bring any discussion of broader restaurant isses to the Not About Food board. We want to keep this board focused specifically on chow in Manhattan. Thanks very much! Fri Aug 08 09:12:14 -0700 2003 1082351 2 The Chowhound Team 9 1082355 I totally agree with Nina - and despite the Chowhound team thinking this is a general not about food issue - it very much is- I think the crux of this discussion is what is and should be the dining experience at NY's top and most popular restaurants - SHould the Manhattan dining culture be : the food is fab, people are knee deep waiting to get in, so the owner has license to allow the staff to be rude or have a take or leave it attitude. Is this our dining covenant? Or do we want, even in these very good (cusine wise) restaurants to have an entire dining experience which to me includes having a whole convivial atmosphere. Otherwise i can stay home and cook for myself. Fri Aug 08 10:24:49 -0700 2003 1082351 0 Faren 10 1082359 Well, that's not just a New York issue- all cities have high end foo foo chi chi restaurants that this sort of discussion applies to. Fri Aug 08 12:39:21 -0700 2003 1082355 0 Chris VR 7 1082392 mr.Batali is not the same anymore.I liked him when he was in Pó.Now he is more an actor the a chef and guests for him only mean money Wed Aug 13 09:29:11 -0700 2003 1082345 0 antonio neto 7 3712176 My reaction is in complete agreement with yours. It's a cookie! The damage it does in refusing (see how many people are reading about a negative experience) after spending money on a meal and drinks is worse then just giving the stupid cookie...to me shame on them. I was at Otto's a while ago, we were a group of 6, we ate much, had a few bottles of wine, ordered desserts and 1 person wanted to change the flavor of the gelato on his dessert. They refused. I couldn't believe it. I never went back. To compare, Grammercy Tavern, to me, excels in how they view the customer. We were at the bar one night, someone near us ordered their hot chocolate martini. I remarked to my husband how I was always tempted to try it but never ordered it because I didn't know how I'd like it. Next thing I knew, the bartender put a good 2 inches of the chocolate martini in front of me in a glass and said "enjoy". That's a place I'll happily go back to over and over. They excel in how they treat the customer. Thu May 22 11:38:44 -0700 2008 1082345 15231 synergy 1 1082304 mg, I think your waiter was just being cheap and wanted to rack up an extra dessert on your check. He could have thrown in an extra biscotti. I mean it wasn't like you were asking for an extra ounce of caviar or something expensive. Some of the people who work at the Batali empire are starting to get cocky and forget they're in a 'service' industry. When I was at Otto a few months ago, one of the waiters dressed in black and white, if I remember correctly, was so full of himself and just posed the whole time. It was comical to say the least. Thu Aug 07 16:12:30 -0700 2003 1082136 0 Flynn 2 1082314 I should reiterate that it wasn't the service but Lupa's policies towards fulfilling ANY type of customer request. The waiter was friendly and helpful. It was the information he was required to communicate (on the kitchen's behalf) which was the sore point of the dining experience. Thu Aug 07 16:50:11 -0700 2003 1082304 0 mg 1 1082331 mg: You have opened Pandora's Chowhound Box! Good for you. Clearly I'm not on you side of the original arguement, but you struck some kind of primordial Batali chord here. Let's see how things develop here. Thu Aug 07 18:43:12 -0700 2003 1082136 0 Steve 2 1082393 Mr Batali an actor or a chef?maybe he is not a chef anymore Wed Aug 13 09:35:31 -0700 2003 1082331 0 antonio neto