19923 Mon May 20 23:25:05 -0700 2002 18 1 San Francisco Bay Area 0 67685 I don't usually watch Ch 5 news, but this was on last night after Survivor... Several years ago, the LA Times & dept of health did an expose on local restaurants that violated local health and food handling laws, assigning them grades and using the threat of public humiliation to get them to clean up their acts or be shut down. Unfortunately, the gist of the KPIX report is that the SF Health Department doesn't close places down or enforce violations, so the same places have ongoing violations over a period of years. Worse they don't maintain a list of violators on their website or make it available to the public, so there's no way to tell except by using your own eyes and sneaking a peek at restaurant kitchens and bathrooms to get an idea about food handling. Singled out in this story for food poisoning incidents, roach or rodent infestations, or mishandling of meat/seafood usually at room temperature were: Great India (mentioned on this board, where I recently had lunch), Irving Seafood Market, Sweet Delight Bakery, Kan's, and Moonstar. Perhaps the Health Department will be persuaded to take a more active role in encouraging public health than merely administering flu shots to travelers. Currently, they refer complaints about food poisoning to the department of communicable diseases, which is perhaps missing the point. Sorry to broach such an unpleasant topic--I'd rather be posting about Japanese sweets or what constitutes an "SF" style restaurant! Link: http://beta.kpix.com/news/local/2002/05/20/Health_Violations_Linger_at_SF_Restaurants.html Mon May 20 23:25:05 -0700 2002 0 Windy 1 67692 It's too bad the SF health department won't do anything. In L.A., every restaurant has a posted grade (A, B, C, etc.) next to the entrance. My parents were crushed when their favorite Thai place got a C rating, but they started going back when its grade improved. It must be a costly program, in terms of inspections, administrativa, etc. But frankly, I'd happily pay an extra dollar on every restaurant check I get if it funded such a system. -Joanna Tue May 21 00:29:48 -0700 2002 67685 0 joannap 2 67711 Sheesh. It seems like SF can't do anything right. Tons of $$$ for detectives, and the worst violent crime solving rate in the state. Restaurants not properly inspected/reported. This is the Willie Brown payola/cronyism system. The SF rest. assocations donate some cash, and he will never let a posted rating system go up. I remember the first time (and the last) I poked my head into the kitchen at Sam Wo on Washington. The chef had a lit cigar between his teeth while he was wokking the food! Tue May 21 06:37:31 -0700 2002 67692 0 qualitysushiplease 3 67712 horror stories? i sat at the counter at the japanese restaurant near the kinokuniya in SF japantown and watched as a cook pulled raw chicken from a bin with his hands and then, after wiping his hands on a towel on the counter, proceeded to arrange some vegetable garnish on another plate. then he blew his nose into some paper towelling and continued on his work. Tue May 21 10:45:30 -0700 2002 67711 0 ankimo 4 67784 It seems those kind of handling and cross-contamination problems are pretty common. At a local burger joint, the cook grabs the raw beef patties with his hand then arranges the bun, lettuce and tomato (or sometimes moves to the cashier and handles the change...) Tue May 21 19:46:47 -0700 2002 67712 0 garçon 5 67913 (All together, now) And you should see how he makes the donuts!! Wed May 22 20:35:15 -0700 2002 67784 0 Shepherd B. Goode 1 67703 The A,B,C rating system has been in place in the County of San Diego for eons (or at least 20 years and probably longer). If memory serves me correctly, Los Angeles adopted this rating model after the KABC expose of a few years back. The County of Ventura has long made public the list of establishments serving food that have been cited or closed. I didn't see the KPIX story, but I have had direct, hands-on experience in dealing with both the L.A. Department of Public Health (pre-expose) and the S.F. Department of Public Health. I much preferred dealing with the S.F.D.P.H. and I don't believe they are shirking their public duty. All restaurants with an operating license are supposed to be inspected at least once a year. If an operation is cited or required to fix a violation, there is always a date set for reinspection and that date can be anywhere from 24 hours to 2 weeks, and the reinspections do happen more often than not. If on reinspection the violation is not corrected the restaurant owner is given a notice to appear before an administrative hearing which can close the operator down, yank the license, impose a fine or other sanction. A lot depends upon the severity of the violation and the attitude of the operator. The S.F. Dept. of Health does inspect, and does close restaurants in the City on a routine basis, although they also try to do a lot of education of the operator as well. It is still a good idea for anyone who suspects they've gotten sick from eating in an estabishment to report it to their local department of health, they are the only ones who can do the investigation. And, they are required to report all cases of FBI (food borne illness) to the State Dept. of Health, which eventually winds up at the CDC in Atlanta. Because of the growing complexity of the food distribution networks, FBI is a growing problem which the CDC is not taking lightly. Since Janaury 2000, it has been State law that all food establishments have a person on permises during all hours of operation that has been trained and has passed a food safety and sanitation certification course, such as the NRAs Serv-Saf program. The S.F. Dept. of Health has been actively involved with the Golden Gate Restaurant Association in conducting the certification training, and was prior to the State law being enacted. At one point an Area Supervisor for the SFDH was a National trainer with the NRA and their Serv-Saf program, and was instrumental in getting the materials and tests translated into Chinese. He happened to teach the session at the GGRA that I attended and had tons and tons of photos of restaurant kitchens in the City that he had closed. And, yes, they were pretty gross. It also provided some rather interesting insight into the challenges of dealing with a reastaurant community as ethnically diverse as in S.F. I know this is probably sounding like a love letter about the SF Dept. of Health, it's not. Like any government agency, and especially those in San Francisco, they have their snafus, red tape, ineffeciencies and dirty laundry. What government agency doesn't these days. But I know from first hand experience with them, that they do do their job and they are pretty professional about it. Just whose responsibility is it to ensure the safety of a food product at a restaurant? The restaurant owner, management and staff who work at the place nearly every day, or the local health department who visits once a year? For me the restaurant owner/management has a public responsibility to train their staff in proper food handling, safety and santitation, especially since they collect money for providing a service. The service shouldn't make one sick, nor should one rely solely on the Health Department to ensure a restaurants safety. I've spent 25 years working in non-commercial (non-restaurant) food service. I've worked with the Departments of Health in San Diego, Los Angeles, Ventura, San Francisco and Marin Counties. Without a doubt San Francisco and San Diego were the best followed by Ventura, Marin and Los Angeles, in that order. I'm sure the S.F. Dept. of Health has some shortcomings that probably do need some immediate attention. This is May, the ratings sweeps month for television and television news. So I guess I'm left wondering if there are some real bona fide isses, or was this just a ploy by KPIX to boost their ratings. Okay, off my soap box. If you can't tell this is a topic that's near and dear to my heart ;-) Tue May 21 02:14:37 -0700 2002 67685 0 Gayla 2 67706 Thanks for posting--all information is good information. It's hard to known how much of a problem this is. I didn't see KPIX's follow up story tonight, but the first broadcast seemed conscientious and not at all sensationalist. I am glad to hear SF generally does a good job with public health issues. I've only gotten food poisoning once here in 15 years of eating out (after what seemed like an okay meal at Wakarabune sushi on Church opposite the no name place), but it was enough. I would still like to see greater public accountability like the grading system. This would also benefit places with violations that later clean up their acts. Tue May 21 02:28:35 -0700 2002 67703 0 Windy 2 67725 Thanks for sharing you more positive experiences. I'd just want to pick on one thing you said: "Because of the growing complexity of the food distribution networks, FBI is a growing problem which the CDC is not taking lightly." Setting aside important issues of disease vectors, I'd like to point out that FBI is a "growing concern" rather than a "growing problem." The fact is that the food and water supply in the US is safer than it's ever been. For some perspective, in the 1930s, illnesses related to food were a major cause of death in this country -- no more. But as we eliminate the "big" public health problems (like epidemic disease and public sanitation), we devote more energy, more "concern" to more small-scale problems. Most of the world would love to have our "growing problems" with the food and water supply. Tue May 21 12:57:25 -0700 2002 67703 0 Ruth Lafler 3 67752 Point well taken. Tue May 21 16:09:39 -0700 2002 67725 0 Gayla 3 67786 I'm not so sure about the general safety of the food supply. For example, it seems that the regulators tolerate the fact that a substantial amount of poultry products (eggs, chicken) are contaminated with salmonella through the currently sanctioned production process. This is a major concession to the food industry at the expense of the consumer. As well, genetically modified products have filtered through many (most?) popular food products. No labeling exists, as opposed to say in Europe. Tue May 21 19:53:58 -0700 2002 67725 0 garçon 3 68196 I think it's pretty hard to draw many meaningful analogies between the '30s and today on this topic for any number of reasons, among then: the number of people who eat out often now compared to then; the increased variety of ethnic establishments operated by folks from cultures less-advanced/aware on matters of hygiene and food saftey; the increase in vulnerable individuals--folks living longer, various immuno-supressant drugs, and recent new, more virulent varieties of old bugs. Perhaps even the fact that we are less exposed to various bugs than people in those days were, therefore have less built-up resistance. Sat May 25 20:47:41 -0700 2002 67725 0 Fine 1 67709 Coming from the southeast US, I cannot believe how dirty restaurants are in San Francisco. I almost try to avoid walking by kitchens as I am always scared of what I might see- food on the dirty floor, raw foods and garbage left out, beverages stored incorrectly. Can you imagine what crawls around at night? Many more people probably experience mild food poisoning than report it to the health department, which probably couldn't care less (and without posted health inspections, has no power to influence the public). Seems like this is somewhat in line with San Francisco's desire to be a generally dirty city (sidewalks, streets, busses, etc.). Tue May 21 02:44:19 -0700 2002 67685 0 a geek 2 67754 Wow .. I can only imagine your reaction if you were to visit New York. Being from NYC, I found San Francisco to be immensely "cleaner". No big sprawling urban area is going to be squeaky clean, but SF and I imagine Seattle would probably rank up there in cleanliness. Tue May 21 16:18:46 -0700 2002 67709 0 EatDrinkMan 2 67756 You're right on the low number of people who report. The one time I reported a severe case of food poisoning, the person at the health department told me that I was the 109th person to report on that particular problem, and he estimated that it had afected well over 1000 people at many restaurants. He was very helpful in explaining tha toxin involved as well as describing my symptoms exactly. In this case since the problem was caused by a oysters and they were able to identify where the oysters came from, they were able to stop all shipments coming from that oyster farm, which I will leave nameless, since I have subsequently had very good experiences with their oysters. Tue May 21 16:19:54 -0700 2002 67709 0 jaweino 1 67729 I guess health inspection of restaurants is the issue du jour. The May 21 Examiner has an article about how our health dept. never closes down restaurants no matter how serious the violation. It looks like there will be follow up articles. You can read them on www.sfexaminer.com Tue May 21 13:52:39 -0700 2002 67685 0 baygelldawg 2 67742 You're hurting my credibility here--the new Ex seems to be aiming for the National Enquirer approach. Their story mentions unsanity conditions at Tu Lan. The last time I ate there, we sat in the stuffy upstairs and watched one of the chefs cut huge amounts of meat on the next formica table. We only ordered vegetarian choices and haven't gone back since. Some of this presumably goes with the 'hound terrority--street food is by its nature a little shaky, and the restaurant kitchens I visited in Vietnam and China left a lot to be desired in terms of refrigeration and cleanliness. I am struck over and over by the filth at Japantown's public restrooms, which are used by restaurant staff. But as this article points out, you can get sick anywhere. Tue May 21 15:19:42 -0700 2002 67729 0 Windy 3 67933 You may indeed get sick anywhere, but the odds go up astronomically at places with evidence of poor hygiene. Dixie Day mentioned mild symptoms she has suffered many times as a food critic, which shocks me, since we sought out obscure ethnic spots for decades and I think I got sick maybe twice ever. More to the point, though, is that the mild queasiness in a younger, healthy person can transform into life-threatening illness in a young child, elderly person (including very healthy "seniors"), or individuals with compromised immune systems from HIV, chemo, hepatitis, etc. In other words, no joke. Wed May 22 23:27:14 -0700 2002 67742 0 Fine 1 67758 As a longtime restaurant critic (8 years in SF), I've long since accepted mild but frequent food poisoning as a job hazard. I can't tell you how many nights I've spent with chills and queasiness after dinner--as often after fancy meals in well-known places as after dinner in dives. I wish SF had a rating system like LA's--it would help everyone! Tue May 21 16:35:49 -0700 2002 67685 0 dixieday