19922 Mon May 20 22:52:45 -0700 2002 27 1 San Francisco Bay Area 0 67680 This is a continuation of today's discussion of Chinese menu translations. Jim, the two times I've had this dish in local Shanghainese restaurants, it was not served with buns ala NY's New Green Bo. Linked below is a discussion of its origins from last January on this board. Anyone have a favorite restaurant for this dish? Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/18249#57297 Mon May 20 22:52:45 -0700 2002 0 Melanie Wong 1 67682 This might be a matter of "regional variation" (i.e. east coast versus west!), but I've NEVER seen it without the bread, including at Tang Pavilion (better than New Green Bo; you've got to try it next trip), which is pretty much a museum of impeccably authentic Shanghai cooking. Kinda weird. Anyone spend a bunch of time near Shanghai and have explanation? ciao Mon May 20 23:09:46 -0700 2002 67680 0 Jim Leff 2 67684 Or someone who has lived in Chengdu, as this is a Sichuan dish carried to Hangzhou. (g) Link: http://chowhound.safeshopper.com/23/cat23.htm?842 Mon May 20 23:22:01 -0700 2002 67682 0 Melanie Wong 2 67688 Incidentally, there's also a hokkien version called "kong bah pao" (literally = stewed meat bun). Geographically distant, but sounds very similar. Mon May 20 23:43:05 -0700 2002 67682 0 Limster 2 67810 I don't want to further complicate matters :) but I think there's a Taiwanese version with bread. Don't know the origin but it could be Hokkien and thus the same as what Limster calls "kong bah bao." The Taiwanese call it gua4bao1 and it has a slice of the stewed pork sandwiched in a clam-shelled shaped bun. The bao also includes pickled vegetables, Chinese parsley, and a sprinkling of peanut powder. I think it's considered a Taiwanese snack and I've seen it on the 168 Restaurant menu (Richmond). Wed May 22 00:47:28 -0700 2002 67682 0 Yvonne 3 67811 Yep, it's often translated as "Taiwanese Hamburger". HLing (one of our NY posters) just found a place that makes it with duck. The Taiwanese versions I've had have not been as carefully marinated/sauced as the Shanghai versions I've had. Might just be the versions I've run into, though, Idunno (this isn't a dish I'm particularly "up" on). The Taiwanese ones were more snacky, whereas the Shanghai ones were much more involved (more delicate/complex sauce, tenderer pork). But yes, more or less similar concept. Wed May 22 00:54:41 -0700 2002 67810 0 Jim Leff 1 67683 Dear Melanie, I concur with the Limster's post in your linked thread, Little Sichuan in San Mateo has a great version. I recall two points he and I discussed at the time other than the excellence of the dish: 1) It's not the stereotypical chilli/peppercorns Sichuan fare, despite its origin. 2) This is a sterling example of how chowhounds will go where lesser, fat-conscious mortals fear to tread. Incidentally my parents and I used to like a similar dish in Cantonese restaurants that was made with belly pork and taro. It belonged in the amorphous category "peasant fare" which was always a favourite. I thought the dish was better for the starchy sweetness of taro, which back home we call the "Tongan steroid" for its popularity with Herculean rugby players of Pacific Island descent. Note that this is scientifically spurious, as the anabolic effects of taro are entirely carbohydrate based so far as I know. Happy eating, Low End Theory Mon May 20 23:20:51 -0700 2002 67680 0 Low End Theory 2 67686 Thanks for weighing in (carbohydrate or fatty-wise)! Any bread served at Little Sichuan with the dish? I do have my eye on the pork belly and taro dish for our upcoming dinner at Kirin (sorry, all full!). We already indulged in the version with preserved veggies at Great China, but sometimes for the sake of science one must make sacrifices! P.S. You are truly a delight - wonderful to meet you on Saturday! Mon May 20 23:27:24 -0700 2002 67683 0 Melanie Wong 3 67687 Well, there are "flower" rolls (hua1 juan3) at Little Sichuan...does that count as bread? Mon May 20 23:41:21 -0700 2002 67686 0 Limster 4 67689 Yes, those are bread, but were they served as part of the Dong Po pork dish? Mon May 20 23:43:13 -0700 2002 67687 0 Melanie Wong 5 67697 Nope - got to order them separately. Tue May 21 01:52:51 -0700 2002 67689 0 Limster 1 67710 Are we talking about Dong Bor Pork? Chef Ding on El Camino in San Mateo is my husband's favorite. They serve rectangular chunks of pork belly (as opposed to thick slices) in a brown sauce. The whole dish is served in a small casserole. The meat and the sauce are steamed together for a long time in this casserole so that the meat becomes "melt in you mouth" soft and a lot of the fat is rendered into the brown sauce. It is a very anti diet dish...you can feel the deposits build on you hip as you eat..but what the heck. The skin part of the meat is the best. I haven't been to Chef Ding for a year since we don't really crave anything else they serve. oh, no bun is served with it. Tue May 21 04:36:23 -0700 2002 67680 0 Margret 2 67936 Yep, bet that's it, cooked in a casserole or jar. Some places seem to use shoulder and other the belly which slices more nicely. I don't crave Shanghai style food either, although I enjoy it as a change of pace. Have heard the xiao long bao are very good at Chef Ding's too. Thanks for chiming in, Margret, I learn so much from your posts. Link: http://chowhound.safeshopper.com/23/cat23.htm?842 Thu May 23 00:57:30 -0700 2002 67710 0 Melanie Wong 1 67713 Tickled by this fusion dish from Singapore (see link below). Something for Limster to check out on his next trip home. Link: http://www.mediacorpsingapore.com/lifestyle/food/2001/06/2107_a.htm Tue May 21 10:56:48 -0700 2002 67680 0 Shepherd B. Goode 2 67790 Alas, those dumpling are seasonal -- they're better known around here as chinese tamales, and are made and sold in mostly around this time of year to coincide with the dragon boat festival, although more generic versions can be found year round. Tue May 21 20:04:51 -0700 2002 67713 0 Limster 1 67749 Hmmm...I have never tried Dong Po Pork with buns before. The best Dong Po Pork is in this little restaurant in Hong Kong (unfortunately) that serves Suzhou/Hangzhou food. Their Dong Po Pork is heaven on earth. It does not taste overly fatty (and if one cannot taste the fat, one can assume that fat will not be deposited on ones body and ones arteries will not be clogged), just very rich and dense. It is cooked until the sauce and the meat/fat become one. It is just absolutely amazing. You can order rice (steamed in individual containers so that the rice is fluffy and has a strong ricey aroma and taste) or noodles (handmade) to soak up the delicious sauce. Add their xiaoxing wine (house-aged for 20 years; I have never tasted Chinese wine with such complexity and depth) and life is good. Tue May 21 15:57:53 -0700 2002 67680 0 musigny 2 67765 We will probably be told to move the discussion to the International board, but what is the name and location of this Hong Kong gem if you don't mind? Thanks. Tue May 21 17:36:01 -0700 2002 67749 0 chibi 3 67767 The name of the restaurant is Tien Heung Lau (which means building of fragrance from heaven ???). It is located at 18 Austin Avenue in Kowloon. Tue May 21 17:59:22 -0700 2002 67765 0 musigny 4 67788 Thanks very much for the tip. Your description of the pork and wine had me drooling. I take it you don't know any place in the Bay Area that makes this dish to your satisfaction? Tue May 21 19:59:55 -0700 2002 67767 0 chibi 5 67875 Unfortunately, I have not yet found a Dong Po Pork here that I like. I don't like to taste the fat explicitly, but that is just my preference. My husband did have a delicious pork belly at Mariposa Restaurant (what a pity they are now closed) where the chef fried the braised pork belly so that you get the crunchy explosive texture in your mouth as well as the tender intensely-flavoured melt-in-your-mouth meat/fat combination. The Chronicle food section described a seared pork belly at Fifth Floor that also sounded quite delicious, so perhaps we will go try that next. Link: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/object.cgi?object=/chronicle/pictures/2002/05/22/fd_porkbellies.jpg&paper=chronicle&file=FD115875.DTL&directory=/chronicle/archive/2002/05/22&type=food Wed May 22 16:22:27 -0700 2002 67788 0 musigny 2 67820 Be sure to down a bottle of Les Amoureuses with that dish for its heart-healthy effects. (g) Wed May 22 04:46:15 -0700 2002 67749 0 Melanie Wong 3 67877 Hmmm...not sure how well a bottle of Les Amoureuses would go with Dong Po Pork but I'll drink one any day (heart-healthy or otherwise). Not sure if xiaoxing wine is good for you or not, but who cares, as long as it tastes good. Do you know of any place in the Bay Area that sells good aged xiaoxing wine? We bought a bottle from the restaurant folks in Hong Kong but it didn't last very long. Wed May 22 16:26:17 -0700 2002 67820 0 musigny 4 67938 Good question, I've never bought any here. I have noticed a place in Chinatown on Stockton St. fairly close to the tunnel that seems to have a lot of Chinese spirits. If I was looking for xiaoxing wine, I would probably start there. Les Amoureuses is one of my favorite crus. Prefer it to Bonnes Mares, in fact but of course, there's always Le Musigny. (g) Thu May 23 01:00:44 -0700 2002 67877 0 Melanie Wong 1 67816 I e-mailed my friend Yutao in Meishan, several hours south of Chengdu in Sichuan Province, and the town where Su Dong Po came from. Here is her reply from local lore and Chinese textbooks, complete with a bit of poetry regarding the dish's origins and some official hero's propaganda: Dongpo Braised Pork is a famous Hangzhou dish named after a distinguished Song Dynasty poet and painter Su Shi,better known in the west as Su Tungpo.According to Su's recipe,the pork is simmered slowly over low heat in a covered pot.When done,the meat is tender and delicious but not greasy at all.Before you eat,the mixture of the seasonings will be put in the plate,including chopped ginger,powder of Chinese prickly ash(numb--Windy: is this the sichuan peppercorns?),soy sauce,vinegar,shallot,and so on.The pork must be the upper part of a leg of a pig with the skin.It would take a long time to simmer until it is soft. The story of the dish went this way. When Su Tungpo was banished from the court to Huangzhou(It might be in present Jiangsu province).He found the pork in Huangzhou had high quality and the price was very low,but few people bought to eat.By asking the local peole,he knew that the rich did not think the pork delicious while the poor did not know the recipe to cook it well. Tungpo did not want to make such good pork wasted. He remembered in his hometown Meishan, people simmered the upper part of a pig's leg and it tasted very nice. So in the same way, he cooked some dishes,and invited some guests to have a try. All the guests felt it fat but taste not greasy, tender but the pork is not slush.They felt it very unique and delicious and praised it frequently and ask how it had been made. So Tungpo made a poem at once, "Good Huangzhou pork,terribly cheap,the rich don't touch,the poor want to know the recipe. Clean pot,Little water,hidden fire,let the pork smimmered,next morning have a bowl,stuffed whole family,you do not worry." Later,people cooked the upper part of a leg in this way and called this dish affectionately "Tungpo Pork". Su Shi(1036-1101) was regarded as the greatest of Song poets.He passed the civil service examinations,with OuyangXius his examiner,in 1057. His checkered political career was marked by a series of defeats and banishments,primarily due to his opposition to Wang Anshi. He was exiled to the provinces no fewer than twelve times. As a provincial administrator,he had the reputation of introducing benevolent policies and establishing a wonderful rapport with the people. From his experience in these various posts,he deprives an immense knowledge of the lives of the common people,which was revealed in much of his poetry.His works include over two thousand poems and over three hundred lyrics.Some critics prefer to describe his style as exuberant,spontaneous,or unrestrained; but,together with this display of powerful sentiments there is always an astonishing degree of verisimilitude.In a modern sense,he may be said to have combined realism and romanticism in his poetry. Wed May 22 04:36:33 -0700 2002 67680 0 Windy 2 67939 Thank you so much for the research! Seems that whenever this homey dish is discussed, the scholars come out. I am amazed at the level of response this thread has evoked. Link: http://chowhound.safeshopper.com/23/cat23.htm?842 Thu May 23 01:03:48 -0700 2002 67816 0 Melanie Wong 3 68143 "The fragrance is easy enough to produce. What is important is that it stands out in a clear field. Instead of being heavy, the pork should appear light; clean instead of messy; smooth instead of lumpy. The flavour of pork is effusive... At its best, pork is tender, sweet, fragrant, tasty, rich without being oily." "The square of fat is regarded with much passion" -From "Chinese Gastronomy", by Hsiang Ju Lin and Tsuifeng Lin Fri May 24 18:19:20 -0700 2002 67939 0 chibi 4 68144 Just one more quote to bring the discussion back to the original topic of whether bread should be served... "Tungpo Pork is customarily served at the end of a meal with with bowls of rice. People sigh, shout and groan with happiness when they see it. This is one of the pinnacles of Gastronomy, and sums up the appreciation of fat in Chinese Cuisine." - C.G. by Lin & Lin Fri May 24 18:26:04 -0700 2002 68143 0 chibi 5 68164 Those are wonderful quotes. I can tell you're getting your defense brief ready for your mother. (g) Sat May 25 03:52:28 -0700 2002 68144 0 Melanie Wong