19796 Sun May 12 23:27:48 -0700 2002 22 1 San Francisco Bay Area 0 66895 The only thing that a free market does succussfully is popularize underrepersented enterprizes. Since SanFran has very little good Indian, no average Middle Eastern , zero Bagels, nebishticka (few) delicitessans, and four french bistros, it seems there would be high demand for one to open. Especialy in a city world renowned for its alleged food savoifaire. After trying Ali Baba's and Truly Mediteranian (indeed) each once more , I became throurougly positive San Fran must simply not know what real White meat or tender lamb Shwarma is like. My turkey shwarma was sliced off the main unit, then detrimentaly chopped and fried in grease to hide the poor quality of the meat. From Taqoria Cancun to El Forroloto I have tried desperatly to find ONE SINGLE blistered flavorfull, beanless So-cal burritoe. Do you guys realy prefer Cancun, to any Roberto's in SoCal? If your do, then it still seems that there would be enough nay sayers to warrent the opening of a Roberto's here. I do not believe there is simply no demand. Even if locals grew up knowing good Hakka, but no good bagles, there are still a few transplants in the city. It seems that anyone who has been to Montreal would desire good shwarma, or anyone who has been to New York would know good Indian. I never did like capitalism much; now it has even lost its bourgoisie palatability. Sun May 12 23:27:48 -0700 2002 0 ryan 1 66905 Looks like the market is wide open. Time to do it! Let us know how things work out for you. Mon May 13 09:38:05 -0700 2002 66895 0 ironmom 1 66913 Really have enjoyed your rants...I will miss them Mon May 13 12:15:59 -0700 2002 66895 0 Ken Hoffman 1 66916 You're in college, right? Don't they teach spelling anymore in our institutes of higher learning? Really, the deal with good ethnic restaurants is that there has to be a concentration of people of that ethnicity to make the restaurants profitable. Thus, the good Indian/Pakistani restaurants are down in Silicon Valley/Peninsula, where the majority of the Bay Area's Indian people live. The Afghani food's in Fremont, where there's a thriving Afghani population. Mon May 13 12:49:40 -0700 2002 66895 0 dixieday 2 66953 Dixieday, good spelling is by no means a requirement for posting on this site. This site works best if we critique food and food opinions, rather than other posters! And, as an aside to those who've posted highly personal and nasty responses (which we've deleted): whether hounds agree with Ryan's opinions (or style) or not, he's welcome to offer them on this site, regardless of spelling or popularity. We urge everyone to resist impulses to take discussion to a personal level; all are welcome here so long as they work within our bounds. Mon May 13 17:53:59 -0700 2002 66916 2 The Chowhound Team 3 66958 >...good spelling is by no means a requirement for posting on this site. No, but it is a matter of courtesy and respect for those one expects to read one's messages. The larger point is well taken--the board is for criticism of food, not criticism of others in the community--but proper spelling and grammar, without which messages are a chore to read, are hardly as trivial as you appear to suggest. Mon May 13 18:36:42 -0700 2002 66953 0 Tom Hilton 4 66982 It's not our job, as moderators, to render judgement on the overall importance or triviality of spellling or other communication skills. It is, however, our duty to ensure that all members of this community feel free to post without being chided for grammar/spelling faults. Anyone who can pound out a more or less intelligible message is welcome here, so long as they post about food and fit our framework. That's our policy. Spelling/grammar reprimands add no value to this food discussion, and that IS a matter of courtesy and respect with respect to our community. Tue May 14 01:11:21 -0700 2002 66958 2 The Chowhound Team 3 66970 Some of the best reviews I have read on this site were by posters where it was obvious that English was not the primary language. Despite the many spelling and grammar errors, these posters had a knowledge of the cuisine they were discussing and I would try the suggested restaurants. Despite running my reviews through spell check, I cringe at the errors that go through. I actually enjoy flammers. To me, they help make this board. They are passionate about their likes and dislikes and often funny and entertaining. I also appreciate that Chowhound steps in when things start to degrade beyond funny. In one of my first postings asking about finding prepared pie crusts, the comments ran to "any idiot can make pie". I even appreciated and laughed at the response that making crust was, well, "easy as pie". I also found a new source at Andronico's for pie crust. Despite being called an idiot, no one removed those posts from the board. I would not want them to. If Ryan's posting was not a joke, I apologize to him. Even being generous when you run this through spell check there were 19 spelling errors and it was more of an attack, if serious, on capitalism rather than food. I will not respond to such a review in the future. Mon May 13 20:33:16 -0700 2002 66953 0 Stanley Stephan 1 66917 I anxiously await the opening of your white meat shwarma burritoe (sic) stand, Ryan. Meanwhile, perhaps you'll find some other people on this board who think, as you do, that whatever is available in Montreal, New York, or "So-Cal" should also be available in San Francisco. You can all go have an un-chowhound fest at Marie Callender's. Try the pies. Me, I thank my lucky stars that locale still has SOMETHING to do with what you can or cannot get. And I am also grateful that posts like Ryan's are by far the exception, and not the rule. Buon gusto, Patrick Mon May 13 13:10:19 -0700 2002 66895 0 patrick 1 66975 You guys had to delete responces about me, due to their vulgarity and inappropriateness?! Well I am certainly happy to hear that some people are as passionate towards their grammer as they are with their Shanghai soup dumplings. I mean real food connoisoirs know that proper spelling and good food are inseparaple, as one cannot be enjoyed without the other. Today I sulk in depression, and realize why I have been eating alone all these months instead of basking in the grammatic splender I imagine a chowhoud gathering must radiate. I have spent the last twenty-six hours searching every post in the Bay area messageboard and, besides all mine, found only twelve instances of spelling mistakes. Sorry I screwed up your website. -ryan Mon May 13 22:32:25 -0700 2002 66895 0 ryan 2 66987 Ryan--you didn't screw up anything. Your rants are welcome here. Please, less umbrage all around, everybody, ok? It's about FOOD! Y'know, I live in NYC, where there are soldiers with machine guns pointed at you as you pass through toll booths to get into Manhattan. Listen to the news; the world is in a horrific state. Let's keep this community a fun, friendly tolerant oasis, ok? As the moderators said: critique chow, not each other! Noodging each other about spelling...sheesh! There are a LOT better things to get all vinegary about! ciao Tue May 14 02:24:38 -0700 2002 66975 0 Jim Leff 3 66988 Ok, one more comment. Ryan, I may have set the wrong tone to your rant when I took it as a joke. I sincerely apologize. I know it would never be my intention to make anyone sulk all day in depression. Hope you read this before you go to bed and feel a little better. I am new to Chowhound and I know I certainly would not have liked being treated that way if I was making a sincere rant. You said in a recent thread that you were leaving after a year at USF. In that thread you said "Sorry if i ever pissed anyone off; I am a kid after all." I am sorry if I pissed you off. No excuse. I looked at some of your old reviews which I enjoyed. Did you choose the restaurant for your last meal in SF? Let us know about it. Where will you be moving. Looking forward to your thoughts in that part of the country. Sorry again. Tue May 14 02:56:11 -0700 2002 66987 0 Stanley Stephan 3 67011 Hey, Jim! How come Ryan is allowed to be so rude on this board, and why are you trying to mollify him? Even if is first rant is arguably on topic (considering his history here IMHO it's a "I'm leaving town here's one last troll" post), the second post certainly isn't. Why is he allowed to insult the whole community with impunity? Just asking. Tue May 14 12:36:19 -0700 2002 66987 0 Ruth Lafler 4 67029 Just taking things on a case by case basis, and there's nothing wrong with this posting by Ryan. And eccentric rants (I don't mean that as a dig, Ryan) are a lot more welcome here than spelling castigations. Those who participate in lots of online discussion have seen the effect of the inevitable few who can't resist chiding re: grammar and spelling. It creates bad feeling, makes lots of folks afraid to post, and spins off the long off-topic flaming exchanges that are the bane of web communities. We haven't seen much spelling/grammar policing on Chowhound till now, and the moderators were quite correct to take a firm stand. It's also the moderator's job to help prevent discordant voices from being shouted down. Everything about Ryan's posting was different from our norm. But it was about food, broke no rules, and we protect his - and anyone else's - right to post, think, and spell differently. In fact, we could use some different sounding voices. Hey, if this discussion's gotta continue, let's take it to Site Talk, please. These big bubbling brouhahas get in the way of the regional chowtalk (and I'm hungry!) : ) ciao Tue May 14 14:31:11 -0700 2002 67011 0 Jim Leff 5 67035 I agree about the spelling and grammar posts (I've been participating on Usenet since 1996), but I still fail to see how Ryan's admittedly sulky, sarcastic, no-food-content response in which he insulted the enitre SF chowhound community is any better. Perhaps you can explain on the site talk board. Tue May 14 15:22:32 -0700 2002 67029 0 Ruth Lafler 3 67012 I gotta say, that reading this thread bummed me out yesterday! I am a lurker mainly because I have a physical disability that makes going out really difficult. For a total food lover, this is hard. So this site is such a great way to "be there" and salivate, dreaming of the day when I can chow with the rest of you. I literally felt my stomach turn cold reading all those personal attacks (before they were deleted). I don't want to belabor the point bec I know this has been addressed. Just showed me a side that seemed kind of clique-y (we need to be the same age, and socio-intellectual bracket to participate...). Ryan, I too have enjoyed your posts and am jealous of the bagels you'll be enjoying soon. Hope you had some good food memories here. Tue May 14 12:39:45 -0700 2002 66987 0 Starfish 4 67032 Cliquishness is inevitable in online communities, and it increases geometrically, since people with different voices inevitably feel locked out and go away. Speaking of locked out, it really bothers me that you're not able to chowhound effectively due to disability. Would you mind joining me for a thread on General Topics (see "Disabled Chowhounds")? We have a number of disabled users who use varying strategies to eat well in spite of challenges. If we can't help you out with strategies, at very least maybe we can send you chicharrones or something. I don't want to see you missing out on good stuff just because you don't happen to locomote great. ciao Tue May 14 14:54:25 -0700 2002 67012 0 Jim Leff 1 67047 Ryan, if you continue to apply your current system of evaluation, you really must spare yourself a visit to those other culinary wastelands of Capitalism, Paris and Hong Kong. I can assure you that you will find neither decent bagels nor Southern California burritos in either. And that's only the beginning of the list of what you won't find. That said, I think your posts have had a positive impact on the Bay Area Chowhound Board, if only because they made so many people realize that, whatever else may be missing over here, we have so very much that we enjoy in a place we love. It has been said that happiness is not getting what you want, but wanting what you have. Good luck, and if, when you attain the fullness of your years, you can be as happy as the average Bay Area Chowhound, you will count yourself blessed. Tue May 14 18:29:10 -0700 2002 66895 0 Pia 2 67084 People took my attacks on some of San Fran's resteraunts as attacks on their personal integrity. They stretched to find any grouds to retaliate against this "assualt", and found spelling a good disqualifying target. But becoming emotionaly instead of intellectualy attached to food, is what keeps Mcdonalds as most americans favorite resteraunt. But if this harmlessly relieved some sort of mounting anger, then I am glad I could be of service. Is there a reason that I constantly mentioned in all posts that I was in college, and I was a kid? Yes; I wanted my appharent immaturity to allow my posts to be ravaged. If i was not Ryan "the college kid" I would be Ryan the assumed adult, and my posts would not have recieved as many of the wonderful, passionate replys that I recieved. Since my personal opinions were tainted by immaturity, my posts could be ravaged and criticised. In real life I use way to many hyporboles to rationaly articulate my regard for a food (I enthusiasitly exclaim that everything that i try is either "the best shrimp I ever tasted, or the "worst hot&Sour soup ever" My friends know that they have to wait for the moment to flee, for a real annotated opinon (the hot&sour soup was average). I was especialy carefull not to form these juvinile conclusions in my posts. I never said that San Fran's food was lousy. It was my legitimate opinion that based on my fifteen months on the road in America, this city's food is just above average. I now affirm the article I read before I got here that claimed that San Francisco is a food city, not a resteraunt city. If anyone is visiting NYC give me an email and Ill point you in the right direction. Thanks for all the recomendations. P.S. In case anyone missed my post a couple months ago, go to the bakery on 9th and Irving (it starts with an A) around 4:00 and get a sourdough baguete out of the oven. In the words of my people its "to die for." -chow Wed May 15 03:50:56 -0700 2002 67047 0 ryan 3 67090 Ryan, I can only speak for myself,(having been censored in my original reply to you), I didn't take your original post as an attack on my integrity. As a believer in first amendment rights, I had no problem with your posting your opinions. As a native San Franciscan, what I did object to was your using the pretext of a food critique and using a forum for food information to take a cheap shot at San Francisco. Had you stuck to a restaurant review, rather than metaphorically ripping San Francisco, I doubt I or others would have felt the need to respond in such a passionate way. What makes San Francisco such a great city is our tolerance for people with different views, be it food, lifestyle, etc. Sure there are tons of bad restaurants and not every ethnic cuisine is represented as well as in other cities. But, if you were in Podunk, Iowa, can you imagine...Nuff said. Best of luck to you, and I think your spelling is just fein. As MY people say, "it's Ciao, not Chow." Wed May 15 10:16:35 -0700 2002 67084 0 Bob Savelli 1 67699 Ryan, I think you might be on to something. I understand your perspective and appreciate your outspokeness, which I believe derives from your passion about the foods you've missed here. SF has a very good food scene, but it is not all-encompassing (which might be a bit too much to ask from an agglomeration of only 5-6 million.) SF has many areas of culinary excellence, but this has lulled the locals into a sense of complacency. I do disagree with you about the taquerias and Indian food; between the four Tenderloin standouts and Viks, Kabana and the Chaat Cafe, the offerings are quite good. I agree entirely about the poor quality of local middle eastern fare. I think most SFers have no idea what babaghanouj or hummos should taste like, or how good a Montreal bagel is. PS: where will you be moving to? Tue May 21 02:03:34 -0700 2002 66895 0 garçon 2 67720 I am truly grateful to hear a voice of moderation. Because I grew up on an entirely different set of chow, I've always been constantly and hungrily aware of some of the things SF is missing. Entire styles of regional Chinese (e.g. Teochew, Hokkien), or true Malaysian Nasi Padang for instance. My Thai experiences haven't been as good as I had hoped, although I'm still searching. And I haven't found any source of good nyona kuehs or stewed duck rice with taro. My Portugese friend tells me that Portugese scene is rather poor, if nearly nonexistent (he shakes his head at Grubstake; and I'm sure he must have missed some of those wonderously light Portugese pastries). I don't know of any city on this planet that is all-encompassing, culinarily-speaking (no, not even Singapore -- I don't think there are good bagels there). I suppose the trick is to find out what the city is good for, and then go for the good stuff. Tue May 21 12:35:59 -0700 2002 67699 0 Limster 3 67780 I think this would be a very good thread subject: cuisines that aren't well-represented in the bay area. Perhaps I'll start one right now... Tue May 21 19:20:56 -0700 2002 67720 0 garçon