195055 Thu May 16 12:09:53 -0700 2002 26 18 Manhattan 0 1041135 Every Vietnamese restaurant I have been to in New York City is run by Chinese people. (Incidentally what credentials do these restaurant reviewers have who call restaurants "authentic"? Not just Vietnamese food. Most of them are not!) Are there any Vietnamese places run by Vietnamese people in this city? Thu May 16 12:09:53 -0700 2002 0 Kujira 1 1041137 Good call -- most of the Vietnamese restaurants, including many of the best in the city, are not Vietnamese-run. In my mind, however, that doesn't necessarily detract from the good quality of many of those restaurants. I think that Chinese can make "authentic" Vietnamese food, just as many Americans can make "authentic" Italian, etc. Nevertheless, as a Vietnamese-American, I would love to find a place where I could order in Vietnamese without getting any quizzical looks from the waiters! For what it's worth, Nha Trang is a very good restaurant that is Chinese-run. However, many of their staff has either lived in Vietnam or have had lots of contact with Vietnamese (and many of them do also speak Vietnamese as well). Not Vietnamese-run, but close enough, I guess. Thu May 16 12:23:37 -0700 2002 1041135 0 Joe 2 1041139 Try to find an Indian restaurant that's run by Indians. You can't in NYC. They're virtually all owned/run by Bangla Deshis. Thu May 16 12:39:22 -0700 2002 1041137 0 Chaudhury 3 1041209 On a similar note to Chaudhury's post, a few years ago the New York Times magazine had a little article that broke down how many of the "ethnic" eateries in NYC are staffed. One of the most interesting statistics the article showed was that the majority of burrito/taco places in Manhattan were owned and operated by...Chinese people! The article quoted some owners saying that it was a logical progression because (1) the make-up of the food is similar (very fresh ingredients that need to be chopped in similarly-sized small pieces) and that (2) there were just too many Chinese take-out places open already and that opening another wasn't proving profitable. Thu May 16 17:09:50 -0700 2002 1041139 0 chinese5spice 4 1041239 Not from an authenticity perspective, but from a fusion one. I often order big cheap yummy enchiladas from the Chinese/Mexican take out place run by Fujians down the street. It is stuffed with the same veggies they use to make all the Chinese dishes. Thu May 16 23:38:34 -0700 2002 1041209 0 Kujira 5 1041241 Pardon me. But your habit of using the subject line as the first part of your message makes it harder to know which discussion your message is part of. If you feel that you are changing the subject you could mutate the subject line something like: Vietnamese not run by Chinese -> Chinese Mexican or whatever. As to your original point: Have you ever had Vietnamese food in a restaurant operated by ethnic Vietnamese? Not just in NY city but anywhere? Fri May 17 00:05:10 -0700 2002 1041239 0 wrayb 6 1041246 Good question. I only started noticing who was running them since moving to NYC. I've had my antenna out on other types of cuisine for a much longer time, and it always has been the best bet to stick to places that are run from people from that country. Take Japanese for example, which I've had at many many restaurants in cities around the world. Outside of Japan, I'd say the majority of "Japanese" restaurants are run by Chinese people. There are lots of ethnic Chinese living in Japan, and these people could very well be the people opening the Japanese places abroad. But I avoid them. Because the food JUST ISN'T AS GOOD. At least from a persepctive of authenticity. And likewise, I am not an expert at Vietnamese food by a long shot, and would like to get a sense of what it is like. From prior experience, in order to get a sense of what it is like without actually going there, I think my best bet is find a place run by Vietnamese people. Fri May 17 01:19:45 -0700 2002 1041241 0 Kujira 2 1041144 Addendum: as I noted previously, just because a Vietnamese restaurant is Chinese-run does not necessarily detract from the quality of the food. However, one place that I *do* have misgivings about is Saigon Grill, on the Upper West Side. I think that this restaurant is really overrated. Yes, their food is tasty and is served in large, generous portions. But the food does not taste very authentic to me -- in this case, I really do feel like I'm eating "Chinese" Vietnamese food. Plus, the menu is really incomplete. For a Vietnamese restaurant, Saigon Grill doesn't serve many of Vietnam's more famous dishes -- ca kho to, for example. I know that this place is a strong favorite, but I definitely prefer trekking down to Baxter Street rather than eat at Saigon Grill. Thu May 16 12:56:32 -0700 2002 1041137 0 Joe 3 1041214 It appears that Saigon Grill is moving to 90th and Amsterdam into newer and bigger quarters. The sign is already up on the building there. Thu May 16 17:21:15 -0700 2002 1041144 0 Pat Goldberg 2 1041153 I second your vote for Nha Trang. I was there on Monday and once again had a great meal for little $$. Does anyone know if Saigon Grill (around 86th and Broadway)is Vietnamese run? Either way, they also make very good, authentic Vietnamese food. Thu May 16 13:15:51 -0700 2002 1041137 0 JesseLou 3 1041155 Hi, JesseLou. I'm glad that you enjoyed Nha Trang! For Saigon Grill, see my post below. I actually have a different opinion from you on that one. Thu May 16 13:25:31 -0700 2002 1041153 0 Joe 3 1041238 Or at least the staff speaks Chinese. Thu May 16 23:25:03 -0700 2002 1041153 0 Kujira 1 1041142 cong ly is run by actual Vietnamese people and is darned tasty. i think it's on the corner of hester and prince. Thu May 16 12:49:41 -0700 2002 1041135 0 BGrey 1 1041148 Why the hang up with chinese run Vietnamese restaurants? Aaccording to CIA factbook the ethnic breakdown is "Vietnamese 85%-90%, Chinese, Hmong, Thai, Khmer, Cham, mountain groups" I've never been to Vietnam, but believe that the Chinese in Vietnam have probably evolved their style of cooking to incorporate local ingredients and I would not be surprised if some are experts at cooking traditional Vietnamese cuisine. Good example is Malaysian restaurants in NYC ie Penang, Baba, Nyonya. All as far as I'm aware all are run by Chinese-Malaysians, a good majority of the food served is recognized locally as chinese malaysian. Cooking style is very different from ethnic majority Malays which more closely resembles Indonesian food. Is what you're eating in Penang Malaysian? Yes, in the broad sense, but No if you really drill down to the to the nth degree of what is truly authentic Malaysian. Same can be said for American food, what is the definition? Native American Indian would be my vote for closest to 100% authenticity. Thu May 16 13:06:15 -0700 2002 1041135 0 SG 1 1041166 The people that own and run the restuarant may speak Cantonese or even Mandarin, but its more than possible that they are people of Chinese anscestry who have been to Vietnam for several generations, and hence know more about Vietnamese food than Chinese. If indeed this is the case, then what you are eating is indeed the real deal. There were several immigrant waves out of Southern China by merchants during the Ming and Qing dynasties that led to there being minority Chinese populations in Vietnam, Malaysia etc. Many of these groups continued to speak Chinese and have done so for generations. That doesn't make the food any less authentic, and for that matter I am less interested in authentic than delicious. Thu May 16 13:59:13 -0700 2002 1041135 0 Mao 2 1041365 You can see exactly this in Sunset Park (Brooklyn's Chinatown) where two excellent Vietnamese places are run by ethnic Chinese from Vietnam. An Dong on 8th Avenue between 54th and 55th makes unbelievable banh mi. Ba Xuyen on 7th Avenue between 60th and 61st is probably the best Vietnamese in the city right now. It's a little take out place with banh mi and incredibly fresh spring and summer rolls, noodles and desserts. You might hear the people speaking Cantonese to each other behind the counter, but the food is as authentic and as delicious as the home cooking I ate with Vietnamese immigrant families in the Bronx. (We were interviewing families brought here under the Orderly Departure Program about their experiences. Each family we interviewed fed us until we were ready to burst, four or five times a day.) It's worth the schlep out there if you want to see some amazing Vietnamese food. Check out the "Outer Boroughs" board for postings on both these places. Sat May 18 08:34:19 -0700 2002 1041166 0 plum 1 1041210 I think that Little Miss Saigon in the Hell's Kitchen area (658 Ninth Avenue) is run by a Vietnamese family. I've never eaten there though. Any reports? Thu May 16 17:12:47 -0700 2002 1041135 0 chinese5spice 2 1041403 Little Miss Saigon is definitely a family owned and operated Vietnamese place - I've eaten there on a number of occasions and it's reasonably good but not up to the standard of my current reference in Nutley NJ (also called Little Saigon!). The summer rolls at LMS are pretty good but the yellow curry is far too mild. I find the Vietnamese yellow curry to be far milder than Thai but the one at LMS is too timid. They do have a very stasty green papaya salad with dried beef that's quite interesting and although I haven't had their sweet and sour a friend did and it appears to be real Vietnamese sweet and sour - not the syrupy glop that so many Chinese places serve. I can't give raves about it but it's worth a visit when in the area. I've been twice lately to the Indonesian place on 9th between 45th and 46th - Bali Nusa Indah. Really tasty chow and cehap. Try the warm fish mousse appetizer - wrapped in some sort of leaves and a weird spongy pale gray color but really tasty with a peanut dipping sauce. The Javanese fisherman's soup is also excellent. I was less than thrilled wiht a chicken sauteed in sweet soy sauce entree - heavy taste and too strong. My daughter had BBQ chicken on our more recent visit - it was excellent as was the assortment that I had. Gorget what they call it but it's $12.95 including a salad and has 4 or 5 different entree samples grouped around jasmine rice - all very tasty - especially the one that had peanuts and dried fish bits withi a spicy sauce binding them together. Sat May 18 22:49:37 -0700 2002 1041210 0 Owen O'Neill 1 1041233 The first poster makes an interesting point, but I cant see what's wrong with the situation. A large number of the vietnamese-identified population in NYC are ethnic chinese, which differs from the mix in other parts of the US. As somebody below points out, there have been major waves of migrations of coastal peoples over the centuries in SE Asia, and there is or was for very many years a large "overseas chinese" population in Vietnam until the aftermath of the Vietnam war. Like overseas chinese elsewhere,they intermarried, picked up local foodways and both influenced and were influenced by local cuisines. These folks were particularly discriminated against when the Communists gained control of the south and so they formed a large % of the population who fled, by boats and otherwise, the country. These people are serving their own cuisine in their restaurants, its not some phony synthetic production, at least in Chinatown. Perhaps as the cuisine gets more popular one will see non-Vietnamese ethnic chinese riding the wave, as they have ridden the thai, mexican and malaysian waves, in logical extensions of their restauranteuring prowess. Id hate to think that the many Malaysian and Singaporean cooks who are of overseas Chinese extraction (not to mention the fading generation of cuban and dominican-chinese chefs who cook some of the best caribbean food in the city) would be somehow regarded as inferior to malay or cuban chefs, for example. It would be interesting to explore the difference (if any) between the cooking done in the ethnic chinese and vietnamese establishments. Is there any? So its an interesting point, but I dont see it Thu May 16 21:57:58 -0700 2002 1041135 0 jen kalb 2 1041240 But how do you know they've lived there and for how long? Do I have to ask everywhere I go? The sweet and sour sauce in my dish the other night at one of the highest ranked Vietnamese places in the city was the same stuff on the sweet and sour chicken in any Chinese place. So even giving you the benefit of the doubt, that they have lived in Vietnam, the influence of Chinese cooking seems to seep into their "Vietnamese" dishes too much for my taste. Like I said below, I think the Fujians down the street from me make a mean enchilada and they have never lived in Mexico before. But it is nothing close to an authentic enchilada, it has been fused with Chinese cooking traditions. The product is delicious, but not authentic. I would just like to eat some authentic Vietnamese food, and so far have had little luck. Thu May 16 23:49:38 -0700 2002 1041233 0 Kujira 1 1041254 finding a vietnamese restaurant not run by "Chinese" wno't guarantee you authentic "Vietnamese" food either. you gotta remember that Vietnamese cuisine, the type that is most familiar to us, is a fusion of cultures ranging from French, to Chinese, to Indonesian. The simpliest Vietnamese dish is 1) white rice 2) ingredients. To make this dish uniquely Vietnamese requires exploiting flavors to its maximum using stuff like fresh herbs, fish sauce, peppers, etc., in the preparation. If you had a dish that was bland, perhaps it was an isolated incident related to THAT restarant. a blanket generalization like the one you allege is prejudicial, and mildly offensive. I also gotta say that the word "Vietnam" is composed of two words, "Viet" meaning "Yue" refering to the Cantonese speaking ethnic group, and "Nam" which means "South". Fri May 17 06:12:22 -0700 2002 1041135 0 sooth 2 1041255 An Egyptian chef travels to France to study cooking. He comes home to America and opens up a French restaurant. The food is 100% authentic French, the owner is not French. Fri May 17 06:23:31 -0700 2002 1041254 0 sooth 1 1041260 I spent a year in Vietnam and the one time I ate in a good restaurant in Saigon, the food was, you guessed it - French! Fri May 17 10:03:09 -0700 2002 1041135 0 Scagnetti 1 1041351 Although not ubiquitous, there are an incredible amount of Japanese and sushi restaurants that are run by Chinese as well. I find it incredibly irritating since most Americans can't tell the difference between a Chinese and Japanese person. The Chinese in these restaurants are purposefully dubious, donning obis and other "japanese attire" in an effort to fool the customer into thinking s/he is getting "the real thing." There are enough truly Japanese restaurants in the city, that one can effectively boycott eating at the Chinese owned places. Fri May 17 20:04:52 -0700 2002 1041135 0 Levi 1 1042237 Nam Phuong at 19 Avenue of Americas, near Canal Street. This has excellent food and is owned and run by a family from Vietnam. I'm not in a position to know whether they are ethnically Chinese, but before my trip to Vietnam they wrote out a list in Vietnamese of some things I'm allergic to. The food very much reminds me of the tastier meals I had in Saigon. The entrees are around $6-$8 and the people are quite friendly. Sat Nov 09 05:16:14 -0800 2002 1041135 0 andy 1 2280441 Actually the best Vietnamese restaurants in NYC are often run/owned by Chinese. The overseas Vietnamese community is often out of touch with modern Vietnamese cooking trends and insists on trying to replicate the same 30+ year old recipes here so the food they serve doesn't compare with what is available in Vietnam today. The change from fish sauce to MSG may also plays a part. Sat Feb 10 18:27:55 -0800 2007 1041135 73465 dmcmanam 1 2281020 I find this thread amusing. I'm from San Jose, CA and we do not have this issue. We have a ton of Vietnamese restaurants and they're all run by Vietnamese. We even have entire Vietnamese shopping malls. You can't drive five minutes without passing a half dozen pho or banh mi restaurants. Sun Feb 11 02:22:11 -0800 2007 1041135 11002 thirtyeyes