193686 Sat Feb 09 10:33:34 -0800 2002 16 18 Manhattan 0 1033653 I have noticed an interesting trend on these boards. As one would expect in the dialectics of food critic culture now saturated with information, our critical impulses precede our palates and we are inclined to find everything disappointing. Just as the various other forms of cultural criticism have deemed most forms of art "dead," I am waiting for someone to announce the death of food. Some here have come close: Peter Luger's doesn't have good meat, Nobu's fish is mediocre, Lespinasse is boring, ADNY is equal to Balthazar, there are no good bagels in NY, and, from the Big Dog himself, pizza in NY is only good at a couple of places. After the attack on New York one would actually expect the opposite in the form of a celebration of the city's offerings. Many forms of cuisine in New York are indeed becoming standardized and sacrifice quality for profit and effeciency, but let's not oversate the point. Food, like all art and craft, is not just a matter of taste. There are standards grounded in history, consensus, and the insights of those critics skilled enough to understand the fine distinctions. I have lived in NY and then moved to other cities, and NY spoils you forever. This is because NY approximates the standards for a variety of cuisines better than any other city. For me this is the primary perk of living in this place and time in history, and we cannot forget that this bounty comes at the expense of those exploited to achieve our standards of culinary living. We walk a fine line here. On the one hand we resist standarization and homogenization of food (and thus the world), but on the other we gripe if our toro is 48 rather than 24 hours out of the Pacific. I don't intend this as a political flame, but only as a way of thinking about our critical relationship to our food culture. Sat Feb 09 10:33:34 -0800 2002 0 Nick 1 1033654 I applaud your candidness and honesty. As an "older" person, I've eaten in many places and many countries over the years. Food, like art, is an individual matter and it's very difficult for some people to accept this reality. Food critics serve a purpose, but how does one know their palate or taste buds simulate those of the writer? It's an interesting thing to ponder on. Thanks. Sat Feb 09 10:50:05 -0800 2002 1033653 0 zuriga 2 1033683 Wow. And here I've been, thinking it was fun to exchange opinions on restaurants with others. Seth Ruffer (Who is a supporter of NPR, has eclectic taste in music which he can discuss--and sometimes even play--, NEVER, EVER has claimed to love a restaurant he's never been to, doesn't believe others here do so, and every now and then will be perfectly satisfied with the "2nd best Thai in NYC"--which, by the way, would place it maybe in the top 20 in NJ, and sometimes even likes to sit around munching chips and drinking bud--NO!!! Bud Light!!! watching football but will never, ever, ever, invite the authors of the previous somewhat less than profound as they appeared to want to sound posts to join him.) Sheeeesh!! Sat Feb 09 19:57:19 -0800 2002 1033654 0 Seth Ruffer 3 1033705 If I bring along regular Bud, may I join you? Sun Feb 10 16:46:27 -0800 2002 1033683 0 SBCochran 1 1033655 Ah, but food is very much "just a matter of taste" to many people here, and totally unrelated to existing standards. Many hounds have never been to the places whose cuisines they profess to love; they just know what they like and dislike, and tend to blow that up into a generalization about what *should* be. Everybody here is a critic. Everybody here has an ego that they present to all. The prevailing ethos is still very much "you didn't KNOW?" one-ups-manship. Don't let it get to you. Just take the suggestions, and ignore the egos. Sat Feb 09 10:55:49 -0800 2002 1033653 0 Lurker 2 1033658 "Everybody here has an ego that they present to all. The prevailing ethos is still very much "you didn't KNOW?" one-ups-manship. " I think you're (just barely) missing the whole point. Listen, I can only speak for myself, but I suspect that most here (not everyone, but every big group of circles includes some squares) feel the same: my attitude is that anyone eating something something second rate has an incredible amount of joy ahead of them, and I take considerable pleasure in guiding them to it...but not in an ego-based or condescending way. Proof of that is that it works the other way, too. Make a convincing case that you know a Thai place that will spoil me and make me never want to return to my favorite spot ever again, and I'll feel deliriously excited, not slighted. And if you're right, and I've been needlessly raving over half-assed Thai, I will joyfully admit it....and be the happiest hound in the world (though I won't be satisfied until I've shared the news with others; burning desire to spread word to other discerning people is a chowhoundish trait). I live to be told (again, convincingly) that the things I eat (and read...and listen to...and think about) are second-rate, because that means things are about to IMPROVE. It means there's treasure I've not yet experienced. May it ever be so. May everything keep ratcheting up. And may this delirious circle of chowhounds keep ratcheting each other up to better and better enjoyment. ciao Sat Feb 09 11:55:02 -0800 2002 1033655 0 Jim Leff 3 1033661 In the end, I very much agree that this is about improvement, or, in loftier terms, culinary enlightenment. What I was trying to put my finger on in the original post is the tension between the disdain of standardization of food and culture, on the one hand, and the unwitting demand for the social mechanisms that produce standarization (the excessive consumer demands that the toro be flown in), on the other. On other words, its our very complusive demands for the finest stuff that in the end drives the demise of the food scene in that the refinement of these markets make the world itself more homogenous. This reminds of comments Jim Leff made on NPR last week about softening the hearts of the detainees by bringing them Charles's chicken and kasha or other American and Jewish treats. This is an ancient issue: how can you war with someone who welcomes you with such hospitality? The second question is then what result would such enlightenment have on the food world? Will McDonalds be serving kabobs in fifty years, or will Afghani's be eating KFC? Either way, under the current conditions it looks like homogenization will result. I write this not to be pedantic, but because I have difficult reconciling my own ethical and political beliefs with my hedonistic standards at the table. Sat Feb 09 12:34:08 -0800 2002 1033658 0 Nick 4 1033672 "...its our very complusive demands for the finest stuff that in the end drives the demise of the food scene in that the refinement of these markets make the world itself more homogenous." Are you asserting that devolution is the product of evolution? Sat Feb 09 15:39:31 -0800 2002 1033661 0 SBCochran 4 1033679 Demanding the best increases standardization in some ways, but decreases in others. It takes a lot of infrastructure to get a toro steak from the docks of San Francisco to a sushi bar in NYC. Think of all the boats, trucks, planes, phones, computers, highways and people involved. The financial backers could be the customers of an Oakland credit union, or financiers in Tokyo, or both. When people and ideas can move back and forth so easily, some standardization is inevitable. The upside is cross-fertilization and inspiration. Chowhounds can also use their hunger for the finest to preserve and enhance diversity. We're the people who splurge on the organic heirloom tomatoes, and seek out the tiny Indian grocery store that carries merchandise too obscure for the local superstore to bother with. We tattoo the names of favorite family-run pizzerias on our bodies so that we can can beat our friends to the punch when they want to order from Domino's. It's good that we're always going to be a minority because we're a small market that the big chains are less likely to close in on. Sat Feb 09 17:59:14 -0800 2002 1033661 0 Lindsay B. 3 1033663 Jim, this reminds me of a conversation I had recently with a new acquaintance. Some friends were sitting around my living room having a drink and i put on a record by Cesaria Evora. A woman present, a friend of a friend whom i hadn't met, said, "is that Cesaria Evora? i just heard her for the first time recently and bought a recdord of hers. I couldn't believe that i had never heard of her! It just makes me wonder what other other singers out there who i haven't heard..." She said that with a note of discomfort, of worry...my god, there was cool stuff out there that she didn't know about...how awful! It occured to me that there is a certain kind of person who feels defensive when introduced to new things, because it means they are somehow out of the loop or uncool. Then there are chowhounds, who dream that somewhere out there there lurks of a perfect slice, a great cup of coffee, a sublime torta cubana, a genuis bowl of pho.... that's why we haunt these boards, and that's why we breathlessly report finds. If our tone turns bitter when we're disappointed, it's because we know the pleasure of eating food we love and can't accept anything less. One of the problems here in the US is that unless you pay top dollar, our ingredients generally suck,. Tomatoes are rock hard and flavorless, meat is pumped with hormones and antibiotics and bred to be lean rather than flavorfull, etc., etc.. That's why so many eating experiences, not just in NY but everywhere, are so bitterly disappointing. I actually think the tone of the board is generally pretty friendly. If you ask where to find Italian in Bay Ridge or chineese in flushing, you'll typically get a nice lecture on the search functions of the board and then a brief rec or two. And then somebody will invariably post about a great place he knows, and a thread begins. One more thing. chowhound.com should feel no obligation to be positive for the sake of being positive. When criticism loses its critical edge, it lapses into cheerleading; mediocrity flourishes. Sat Feb 09 13:47:07 -0800 2002 1033658 0 tom philpott 4 1033677 thanks for the posting! But one thing. Re: the stern lectures about searching before posting, I'm obliged to point out that we get maybe eight such postings per month, out of total posting number of about 24,000. Plus I (the host of this party) often break in to note that such people are out of line. So the minuscule handful of people posting these uncalled-for rebukes are very insignificant (though, unfortunately, garnering much attention from new would-be posters). It's human nature to notice eight testy messages above 23,992 friendly and generous ones, alas. ciao Sat Feb 09 17:45:16 -0800 2002 1033663 0 Jim Leff 5 1033791 Jim, I don't think Tom was being negative re: the rebukes. He said "nice." "If you ask where to find Italian in Bay Ridge or chineese in flushing, you'll typically get a nice lecture on the search functions of the board and then a brief rec or two." Mon Feb 11 21:13:56 -0800 2002 1033677 0 Peter Cuce 6 1033794 From someone who was on the receiving end of one of these "nice rebukes" they are indeed nice and polite. I was asking a question about something in Queens and thought that people here would know, but when it was (nicely) suggested that I take my question to the outer boro board I was happy to discover that many of the same people on the Manhattan board were posting on the outer boro board, so I still got the information I wanted from people in all boros. Thanks for the rebuke! Mon Feb 11 22:40:44 -0800 2002 1033791 0 Kenzi 6 1033795 Ah, ok. Sorry for my misunderstanding! Mon Feb 11 22:46:28 -0800 2002 1033791 0 Jim Leff 4 1033802 Thank you, Cesaria Evora is new to me. Tue Feb 12 00:39:13 -0800 2002 1033663 0 wrayb 3 1033673 Jim, while I don't fault your sentiment, your use of phrases like "second rate" is like a mine field and seems so inflexible and absolute in this very relative and complex sensory world we inhabit. On other fronts, the post opening this thread touches on many interesting points worth exploring. I will try to come back to them soon when I have time. Sat Feb 09 15:56:34 -0800 2002 1033658 0 wrayb 1 1033731 What is the purpose of this board if not to express our candid opinion of restaurants? Is that egotistical? I would understand your point more if there were a lot of personal flaming on the board - but while people may flame meals, they rarely flame each other for having different opinions. So what more can one ask for: the right to forcefully express our opinions without taking away anyone else's right to express their's? Isn't that the ultimate food society? Before I cry out "Chowhound, love it or leave it" I should end this post! Mon Feb 11 10:31:57 -0800 2002 1033653 0 Deborah Pastor