191696 Fri Jul 13 02:18:58 -0700 2001 41 18 Manhattan 0 1023533 First off, thanks to all of you chowhounds who responded to my post about the Vatan Indian restaurant. I won't be going there, thanks to your advice. Now--for some more HONESTY. Don't most of you out there agree that Starbucks coffee is TERRIBLE? It is so over-roasted that their brew has a distinctly 'burnt' taste. Any natural flavor in the beans is drowned out by the bitterness. Even the coffee "aroma" emanating from their shops has that burnt quality. I first came across this sorry addition to Java Culture when living in LA several years ago. I prayed it would never come to New York(even prided myself that New Yorkers knew the difference between a really good cup of coffee-a Gillie's roast, say, and crap.). Now, Starbucks shops dot every corner in the city. HOW DID WE LET THIS HAPPEN! Anyone have a clue?. By the way, pardon me if this subject has been discussed before on these boards. I am new here, and I really welcome your input. If you, like me, would take a medium Dunkin' Donuts regular(not flavored) cup of Joe, over a Starbucks double latte ANY day, let's talk!!! Fri Jul 13 02:18:58 -0700 2001 0 Buckwheat Cook 1 1023536 There used to be a very good Italian restaurant in Little Italy in the early 80s, run by a Lesbian couple, but I have forgotten the name. (anyone happen to remember it?) Anyway, Gail Greene reviewed the place, and gave it high praise, but she concluded with the remark: "but $5 for a double espresso is just excessive!" I think the answer to your question "how did we let this happen?" is because many of us are willing to pay these prices for a mediocre cup of coffee. I actually am a fan of the bitter/burnt taste, though I do not believe that Starbucks does it all that well. I don't take my coffee black - if I did, I could see it as being too bitter. But tempered with the right amount of half & half and sugar, I find their coffee of the day to usually hover into the 'decent' range. My preferred cup in Manhattan is way North, up in Washington Heights. I am of course speaking of the Dominican cafe con leche, which is a very strong shot of Spanish espresso poured into a cup of steaming hot milk. Most places get less than a buck for it. Galicia on 172nd St. and Broadway charges 75 cents, and the excellent El Malecon (175th and b'way) charges 85 cents. Mambi (177th and b'way) now charges a full dollar. All of these cups are exceedingly delicious, and make for a fine morning cup, as well as an after dinner one. Though I live in Lower Manhattan, I work in North Jersey, and frequently stop for a coffee or a snack in Washington Heights on my way to and from work via the George Washington Bridge. If you want to thumb your nose at Starbucks, consider the North end of Manhattan for a memorable cup of Joe. Fri Jul 13 03:40:00 -0700 2001 1023533 0 foodpimp 2 1023552 I've always found Starbucks coffee to be decent and most of their stores to be comfortable places to hang out. I think Starbucks gets a bad rap because of their market dominance. Put a sign that says "Ma & Pa's Coffee Shop" above a Starbucks, and I think many Starbucks haters would suddenly like the place. Just because a restaurant or store is independent or locally owned doesn't make it good, and just because a restaurant or store is part of a chain doesn't make it lousy. Fri Jul 13 11:38:14 -0700 2001 1023536 0 Ira Kaplan 3 1023584 Ira, well said. It has become fashionable to take a shot at Starbucks these days, in part due to its commercial success and market domination. Regardless of one's personal taste preferences, Starbucks must be given credit for bringing coffee into the mainstream and making the coffee experience so accessible . Moreover, its enlightened personnel policy and community projects are trend setters in the industry. Fri Jul 13 14:58:19 -0700 2001 1023552 0 ForkinMouth 4 1023612 You may change your mind about their Evil Empire status when you check out the attached link. Link: http://www.theonion.com/onion3709/starbucks_phase_two.html Sat Jul 14 01:36:16 -0700 2001 1023584 0 Bob Martinez 2 1023560 The coffee con leche on my corner at Sucelt at 14th ST. W is cheap and a lot better than Starbucks for sure. Fri Jul 13 12:37:28 -0700 2001 1023536 0 iron frank 3 1023598 How can all the latino restaurants make such good coffee out of that Cafe Bustelo stuff? Its just the WORST in our home espresso setups! Fri Jul 13 17:23:43 -0700 2001 1023560 0 jen kalb 3 1023607 A cup of cafe con leche in any latino, esp. a chino-latino dive beats out Starbucks any day. For $2 you can get the cafe con leche and a buttered roll the size of your vente latte, whereas at Starbucks - $2 will get you their mints, if you're lucky. Besides, I prefer the just-wiped, oil-cloth tablecloths at these dives any day over a mushy, cushy couch which god-knows-who's been sleeping and dropping stuff all over. ewww. You're fooling yourselves if you think those coffee couches are clean. Why do you think they're so dark? But I must admit, Starbucks does come through everytime when I've got my caffeine withdrawal headaches. Fri Jul 13 23:02:25 -0700 2001 1023560 0 Wendy L. 2 1023580 That's the name of the restaurant, gone but not forgotten, that I believe you're referring to. It had a wonderful garden. Fri Jul 13 14:50:40 -0700 2001 1023536 0 richardb 2 1023949 I loved El Malecon when I was staying up in Washington Heights, and I was pleased as punch to find that El Malecon II is found on Amsterdam near 98 St, since I'm staying at 93 and CPW now. Sat Jul 21 23:56:10 -0700 2001 1023536 0 Dino 1 1023545 I'm not sure dunkin donuts is the ultimate, but I generally agree about Starbucks. Fri Jul 13 08:55:06 -0700 2001 1023533 0 rjka 2 1023559 On my last trip to Seattle I had what had to be the best all around cup of straight coffee I've ever had. At the Crocodile Cafe where they used beans by Torreazione. Does anyone know if these beans are being served up in NY? or Pegasus brand beans which seemed even stronger and tasted like Starbucks should. I've never had a great cup of coffee in NYC. Xando and Starbucks regular daily brew are both sickening. Their coffee "drinks" though are tasty enough but it's far less challenging when adding dairy and sweetener. Thanks, Frank Fri Jul 13 12:33:23 -0700 2001 1023545 0 iron frank 3 1023566 "WAITER! This coffee tastes like mud!" "Well, sir, it is fresh ground." Torrefazione is what I buy for home. I was turned on to it at CRAFT when I had a perfect espresso there. They sell both whole and pre-ground beans at Garden of Eden on 14th and I would assume elsewhere. I've included a link to their web site. Link: http://www.titalia.com/site/ Fri Jul 13 13:10:06 -0700 2001 1023559 0 Chris 3 1023609 i like to get the cafe con leche around the way at la taza de oro up 8th ave. at 14th. And it's a tad cheaper I believe. god bless sucelt and la taz, I eat at them once a week. starbucks? not even in seattle! Fri Jul 13 23:32:01 -0700 2001 1023559 0 mrnyc 4 1026611 I used to go to Sucelt a lot -- hadn't been in a few months and went last night. I got the beef stew which turned out to be almost inedible. The chunks of beef were totally dessicated. Really disgusting. And the service, as always, was surly. Going to have to cross it, sadly, off my list. Wed Jul 24 15:45:59 -0700 2002 1023609 0 Damian 1 1023549 Don't you mean "Charbucks"!. That is what I call it. However, as a owner of a highly specialized business, I have to give Starbucks alot of credit. They were the first to create an image of being the "ultimate place to buy coffee." Just by specializing in just coffee. Think about it. Every time you go to Starbucks you pass at least five places that sell coffee. The supply of coffee is unlimited. But by specializing in coffee, they attract a comsumer who feels they are getting a better product than at a store who sells cigarettes, but also sells coffee on the side. I remember a couple of years ago, when Starbuck decided to sell tea. What a flop. They were not known as the tea place, they are the coffee store. Fri Jul 13 10:46:46 -0700 2001 1023533 0 Shoeman 1 1023550 i love starbucks coffee, and i drink it black. i think dunkin coffee sucks, and the only thing going for it is they don't let it burn after brewing. Fri Jul 13 11:01:43 -0700 2001 1023533 0 pepe katz 2 1023551 this is your last warning, bill. stay away. Fri Jul 13 11:30:51 -0700 2001 1023550 0 Jim Leff 3 1023555 The coffee doesn't suck, the whole Starbucks concept sucks. Think about this: You go into a Starbucks, order coffee. Its served in a cardboard container. You then carry it to the checkout, then carry it to the place you put the milk and sugar in, then further, carry it to where you intend to sit. After drinking the coffee, you than carry it to the waste basket where you dispose of it. After doing all this work, you have to leave a tip. The tipping container is at the cash register. They should be tipping you for doing their work. And your doing all this work after paying hefty prices for this coffee. Go into any luncheonette, go to the counter, order a cup of coffee. Its served in a real chinaware cup with a real chinaware saucer, with a real spoon (not plastic). The person behind the counter serves it to you, gives you the milk and sugar, and, after drinking you coffee, you leave a tip and leave. The price is about half, or less, than Starbucks. Fri Jul 13 11:55:29 -0700 2001 1023551 0 walter 4 1023570 COMING FROM A BUSINESS POINT OF VIEW, I STRONG DISAGREE WITH YOU ABOUT THEM HAVING A BAD CONCEPT. STARBUCKS HAS A GREAT CONCEPT. IT IS VERY PROFITABLE, WHICH UNLESS I'M MISTAKEN, IS THE GOAL OF EVERY NON-PROFIT BUSINESS. THEIR COFFEE, I CAN CARE LESS ABOUT. DEFINITELY A DISTINCT BURNT TASTE. I LOVE EXPRESSO, SO IT'S NOT A MATTER OF NOT LIKING DARK ROASTS. I DRINK MY COFFEE BLACK OR WITH CREAM AND SUGAR, DEPENDING ON MY MOOD AND WHAT I'M HAVING IT WITH. IF STARBUCKS CALL THEIR ROAST AN ESPRESSO ROAST, IT WOULD BE AN INVALID STATEMENT. Fri Jul 13 13:40:41 -0700 2001 1023555 0 emilyc 5 1023578 Please don't use caps. It's hard to read and is even considered rude. Thanks. Fri Jul 13 14:39:51 -0700 2001 1023570 0 Tatyana Gourov 6 1023594 I apologize, but I fogot to turn off the the caps lock key before posting. The system I use at my job only recognizes all caps. Sometimes I get so used to reading it that I forget. It wasn't used intentionally in my last post. Fri Jul 13 17:09:37 -0700 2001 1023578 0 emilyc 6 1023617 Hard to read, yes, but rude? Are caps the literary way of YELLING? Sat Jul 14 10:12:14 -0700 2001 1023578 0 Shoeman 7 1023620 Yes. On the net, all caps=yelling. Sat Jul 14 14:08:02 -0700 2001 1023617 0 Caitlin McGrath 4 1023587 I don't agree that the Starbucks concept sucks. They can't help it if they're so popular. Many people like their coffee and what I think many people like more is that Starbucks offers a comfortable place to sit, read, shmooze, use your laptop...for the price of a coffee. You can't say that about any local luncheonette - they'd rudely ask you to leave after your second refill. And who wants to sit at the counter elbow-to-elbow with other people when you can sink into a comfy club chair at Starbucks? This reminds me of Barnes & Noble bashers. Meanwhile, people can sit in their bookstores for an indefinite amount of time reading books and magazines. And if you have coffee in their Starbucks cafe, you can sit even longer. I've seen people sitting in the cafe until the loudspeaker announces for the sixth time they were closing the store. I don't work for either of these places but do find them comfortable and pleasant. While I don't like Starbucks regular coffee, the cappucino tastes fine to me. And let's not forget that the owner is a Brooklyn-born guy and not some corporate mall-clone from Mayberry USA. Fri Jul 13 15:53:33 -0700 2001 1023555 0 Ruby 5 1023589 You just gave us out-of-towners more reason to hate them! (g) Actually, I don't hate Starbucks. I never patronize them, because I prefer to support local businesses, all other things being more or less equivalent. As far as coffee goes, when I'm not roasting and brewing my own, and I'm near one of the coffeeshop sections of town, I like the others' coffee better than Starbucks' anyway. None of the funky coffeeshops around here will toss out anyone lingering over a book. It doesn't bother me if someone truly likes the Starbucks product, and so seeks it out. I know it's a free country, but it does bother me that there are so many people who prefer to patronize a chain-be it a restaurant or a coffeeshop, even when the locally run place serves a better product. A woman I know heard Starbucks came to town, and her reaction was, ok, Starbucks is here, so now it's safe to go to a coffeeshop. The antithesis of Chowhoundry. Fri Jul 13 16:15:56 -0700 2001 1023587 0 ironmom 6 1023597 Actually, I think of Starbucks as a West Coast product - that squeaky clean Seattle image rubs a lot of New Yorkers the wrong way. Their espresso drinks are a good product but grossly overpriced. Their regular coffee is an improvement over Dunkin Donuts (I'm sorry - when I have had it it was industrial grade ) and the usual diner coffee but nothing special. It IS a very dark roast, I dont like it as well as the Illy coffee which is a bit lighter and more flavorful and my benchmark. PS I have recently started to purchase espresso coffee from the gentleman at Italian Coffee Roasters, which is just around the corner from Royal Crown Bakery in Brooklyn (he is on 63rd, I think, and just east of 14th Ave. His roast is not as dark as most and we are enjoying it. $5 per pound. 718-232-7738(?) Fri Jul 13 17:21:12 -0700 2001 1023589 0 jen kalb 3 1023561 "this is your last warning, bill. stay away." Is this something that should be shared with the rest of the Chowhounders? Sorry, I missed it. Fri Jul 13 12:41:03 -0700 2001 1023551 0 Shoeman 1 1023553 Hey, I really enjoy my Starbucks coffee (black, thank you) in the morning. I suppose if you need to hide the coffee taste with cream and sugar, and don't mind the ifusion of styrofoam in your drink, then DD is probably fine. Fri Jul 13 11:41:17 -0700 2001 1023533 0 Alan H 1 1023554 I couldn't agree with you more about Starbuck's. I've never liked their brewed coffee and settled into lattes and an occasional cappuccino. After my last trip to Italy I woke up and smelled the coffee so to speak and have not stepped foot into a Starbuck's since. And truth be told, I am not opposed to their chain-like atmosphere. I appreciate the consistency. Too bad that consistency includes bad coffee! I'd take a D&D any day. Just wish they were more centrally located in NYC. Fri Jul 13 11:48:55 -0700 2001 1023533 0 Amanda 1 1023564 "STARbucks!? STARbucks!? They ought to call it FIVEbucks! That's what they charge me every time I go in!" - A brilliant comic at GOTHAM who's name escapes me. Starbucks makes no secret of the fact that they use an ESPRESSO roast as a filtered coffee. I don't know if they were the 1st but they certainly made their mark. I feel that coffee has gone the way of wine and in the states, the bold sweet flavours of a single arabica bean have been as successful as the monster flavours of highly extracted cabernet sauvignon. Traditionally, great coffees were like great wines, the work of the master roaster being in his blend, sampling beans from different regions and roasting by listening to the "crack". And just as the "lowly" Pinot Munier" is the supporting cast to the "Stars" of Chardonnay and Pinot Noir, so Robusto was necssary to achieve body and, in the case of espresso, full crema. But the characteristic "bitterness" of Robusto is viewed as negative in the same way "tannins" are in the wine world. Yet both are absolutley essential for a well balanced blend of coffee. I was surprised when the other day at a well regarded coffee bean store in Manhattan when I asked if any of their 75+ varieties were Robusto and the answer was ZERO. I had wanted to make a full crema espresso at home. I think Starbucks succeded in Manhattan because they built a better moustrap AND they put it everywhere. For non-chowhounds there is something to be said for consistency and ease. The time pressed commuter is not going to travel to Washington Heights or Little Italy for a perfect cup of joe. And while Starbucks may serve an over-dark,unbalanced filtered coffee, it is seen as a better alternative to weak deli or muffin cart coffee, and they gave one a place to sit if time allowed. They also opened the door and created an industry for the copycats, some of whom,serve a better product. I for one, am fond of XANDO. I don't know if it's still true but they were, at one point, using a great roaster in Hoboken KOBRICKS. There is also the venerable DALLIS BROTHERS in Ozone Park who supply many restaurants and also have a retail business. Fri Jul 13 13:04:22 -0700 2001 1023533 0 Chris 2 1023583 I actually don't think Starbucks is so bad. As an espresso drinker, I like the bitterness and strength of Starbucks coffee, but I definitly do not think it is the best. But where in New York is there better coffee? In New Haven, where I spent four years, there was great local coffee shops with great coffee and comfortable seating. Whenever I travel through my old haunts, I still pick up a pound of Willoughby's, especially their Ethiopean Yergecheffe (my second favorite coffee after Tanzanian Peaberry. I think that is the name) But in New York, I have not found great local coffee. I just went to 71 Irving after reading that their coffee was supposed to be great. It was good, perhaps as good as Starbucks, but definitly no better. I don't think Zabar's or Oren's is so great. And DD is way to weak. It is really only over marketed diner coffe (not to say diner coffee isn't great sometimes. Nothing like a bottomless mug with two eggs and home fries) So two questions for the board: What is the best local coffee brewed and by the pound? What is the best COMFORTABLE coffee shop to go to instead of Starbucks (which never kicks you out and even lets my friends tutor students there)? Looking forward to the answers. Fri Jul 13 14:57:57 -0700 2001 1023564 0 AndyK 3 1023623 For coffee by the pound I would go to Empire Coffee on Ninth Ave near 41 Street. (Recently moved from Ninth & 43 St.) Empire is also a good source for reasonably priced bulk teas. Sat Jul 14 19:25:26 -0700 2001 1023583 0 Brian Wickham 1 1023568 Starbucks clearly has problems (the chain mentality, the proliferation of frilly frapuccino drinks and flavored syrups, the responsiblity for the caffeine addiction of millions of minors, the exploitation of Guatemalen farmers) but credit should be given where due. Starbucks has, over the last ten years, elevated the American coffee taste. Let's face it, most NY coffee has always been swill. Sure, Dunkin' Donuts has its fans, so does White Castle, and probably Denny's, but the coffee is more sentimentality than taste. Of course in the occasional Cuban or Italian restaurant there is better coffee, but for the non-chowhounding masses, Starbucks has done a service. (Even the "fancy" coffee wasn't great...when I moved to NY from the west coast, I was surprised what passed for good coffee in most Village cafes). Fifteen years ago, the taste for coffee among most Americans (outside of some west coast enclaves) was for watered down Yuban with lots of cream and sugar. Now, strong coffee that actually has flavor can be bought from Topeka to Tallahassee. I've never been a big Starbuck's drinker, and certainly there is much better coffee to be found -- Peet's is a much preferable chain and there are dozens of great, independent local shops; but I respect what they've done to improve American coffee taste. Fri Jul 13 13:12:21 -0700 2001 1023533 0 SKU 2 1023590 Right on, Sku. I'm in complete agreement. I'd also like to point out that where there's a Starbucks, there's a john. This has helped me out of not a few tight spots. Fri Jul 13 16:34:22 -0700 2001 1023568 0 Erica Marcus 3 1023642 Erica, if you want an awesome powder room experience, try Bergdorf's. You go down to the floor below the main floor, where you will feel like Alice in Wonderland in make-up hell. You will eventually find a "booth", which is like a beautiful tiny room and has a rarely-found down-to-the-ground (or close) door. I wanted to move in. These rich people know how to live... Mon Jul 16 03:02:42 -0700 2001 1023590 0 jellyapple 1 1023625 A friend worked for Starbucks and didn't make coffee at home, so he gave me and my roommate his free Arabian Mocha Sanani, and I must admit it was fantastic. (Of course it is, it's the most expensive kind they sell.) Also, their LightNote Blend is very nice, but I do agree with you that generally their regular coffee is burnt. However, their espresso drinks are fantastic, much better than any other coffee shop, large or small. And their crumb cake and espresso brownies are to die for. Sat Jul 14 22:12:57 -0700 2001 1023533 0 Denise K. 1 1023661 Well.. I don't care what you said.. Nothing beats Mocha Frappucino. I love my Coffee iced, cold, and sweet, and with mocha. What can be better than a grande Cappucino while playing with my laptop in one of Starbuck's awesome well-spaced tables. I wish there is one Starbuck in every 3 block in Manhattan and other boroughs. Mon Jul 16 13:34:50 -0700 2001 1023533 0 Joshua Goldman 2 1023673 You wish there were Starbucks' on every 3rd block in Manhattan? If you insist... Poof!!!! Here you go: On Broadway: 37th, 41st, 47th, 51st, 60th, 70th, 81st, 87th, 93rd, 98th, 102, 111, and 114. On Columbus Avenue: 59th, 67th, 73rd, 81st, 86th. On 7th Avenue: 31st, 34th, 35th, 49th, 52nd (coming soon!) On 8th Avenue: 35th, 39th, 43rd, 52nd, and 57th, just west of 8th. It reads like the announcements on the 1/9 train: "This is Columbus Circle... Starbucks Coffee at 57th, 59th, and 60th. Next stop: 66th Street-- Starbucks available at 67th and 70th. Transfer is available to the uptown A train, express to Starbucks on 125th Street, and to the uptown B, and C locals, for Columbus Avenue Starbucks locations. Stand clear of the closing doors on this uptown 1/9 to Van Cortlandt Park, where there is no starbucks coffee. 138th Street will be the final Starbucks on this train." -Chris Mon Jul 16 16:10:33 -0700 2001 1023661 0 Chris Armstrong 1 1024100 Why are we talking about Starbucks coffee as if it is a single entity? I, who likes the unbalanced, dark (over) roasted flavor of some of their "traditional" coffees (sidamo, sumatra, yukon if I have to), can't stand their "traditional" insipid columbian and others. Some other thoughts: their baked goods are almost uniformly uneatable, does everything really have to be that sweet? and that reminiscent of cardboard? While agreeing in general with the benefits of consistency, if you've ever had a Starbucks in Ridgewood, NJ you know you are in for a unique experience. I think they have a contract with the special ed class at the local high school, but I have never had an error free experience there. The last time, unable to find anyone who would take my money, I simply had to walk out with a free coffee. Thu Jul 26 09:39:07 -0700 2001 1023533 0 jmgb 1 1025337 Tell me about it!! I live in England in a small City which is now filled with Starbucks's! Even worse than that, I ended up working for them!!! NOOOOO!!!!! Well it had to happen sooner or later. They're taking over the world man! Run while you still can!!! Sun Aug 26 12:07:29 -0700 2001 1023533 0 Jack G 1 1025405 True, some of Starbucks coffee is horribly burnt. I myself bought some Breakfast Blend and couldn't drink it at home. However, there are some absolutely delightful blends that are not bitter at all, such as their summer Gazebo blend (currently turning solid in my coffeemaker right now), their LightNote blend, and their Arabian Mocha Sunani (there's a reason it's their most expensive blend, it's absolute heaven). Also, I love their coffee cake, though I can't say I'm an expert on the subject. Espresso brownies are the perfect answer when you're craving both chocolate and caffeine, and that brownie thingie they have drizzled with caramel is the most fantastic sweet I've ever had. Like most things in life, if you take the time to delve a little further into their offerings and don't immediately dismiss it because you don't like the concept, sometimes the rewards can be great. And you definitely can't dispute the social aspect, especially for those under 21 who can't sit and schmooze at a bar. I remember many a college night when I met friends to study at Starbucks, or to celebrate after a concert or play in which we performed. It's not for everyone, but neither is foie gras, and that's not met with horrible opposition. Enjoy! Mon Aug 27 23:14:16 -0700 2001 1023533 0 Denise K.