190940 Thu Apr 05 09:52:04 -0700 2001 29 18 Manhattan 0 1019820 Hi folks, I want to know why New Yorkers like 'Yama' Sushi so much, I personally don't like this place at all. If you ask any Japanese, good sushi are not big, huge, and oversized sushi, but it has to be delicate, fresh, and very tiny, assuming price is not a concern here. I was amazed the popularity of this place, it's like a zoo on the weekends. Amazing how New Yorkers think they know how to rate sushi, but they actually don't, and I can't believe Zagat says this place is one of the best sushi restaurants in Manhattan. Another thing, Sushi is eaten with your hands, not chopsticks. Thu Apr 05 09:52:04 -0700 2001 0 Aditya Pradja 1 1019822 I agree that Yama is overrated but can anyone confirm: "Another thing, Sushi is eaten with your hands, not chopsticks." I've eaten sushi with my Japanese friends and in Japan and have never seen sushi being eaten with bare hands. Thu Apr 05 10:34:38 -0700 2001 1019820 0 AbbyLovi 2 1019826 Usually sushi is eaten with chopsticks, but it's acceptable in Japan to eat it with your hands. I've seen it done in Japan on occasion (I lived there for nine years). Purists will tell you that originally sushi was eaten with hands, but common practice now is chopsticks. Best, Deb H. Thu Apr 05 11:32:22 -0700 2001 1019822 0 Deb H. 3 1019847 I've heard that eating sushi with your hands was mostly popular in Tokyo vs. other regions of Japan. Thu Apr 05 13:51:43 -0700 2001 1019826 0 Michele Cindy 4 1019885 I always tell the people eating at the sushi bar, the ones who are unable to use chopsticks and end up disassembling their sushi into the soy sauce, that they can use their fingers. They are grateful to be able to eat their dinner. But I have heard that the most common style of sushi served in Japan is bite-sized and it is considered bad manners to nibble at your sushi rather than pop it into your mouth. Comments? Thu Apr 05 18:31:11 -0700 2001 1019847 0 ironmom 5 1019889 Ironmom, Generally I'd agree with the bite-sized nigiri guideline, though they're usually not miniature or anything -- just of manageable size to eat in one mouthful. Some gimmicky sushi places make the fish portion huge so you've got to eat the nigiri in two bites, but that's generally just a minority of places. Eating a regular-size nigiri in two or more bites tends to be considered bad form, but my take is who cares as long as you're enjoying your food. Best, Deb H. Thu Apr 05 18:47:42 -0700 2001 1019885 0 Deb H. 3 1019848 Debbie, You probably eat at high-profile restaurants in Tokyo or big cities around Japan. Have you ever had sushi at small family gathering in Japan. Everytime we had parties, all Japanese eat them with their hands and even now, in New York, all my Japanese friends eat their sushi with bare hands. Thu Apr 05 13:54:57 -0700 2001 1019826 0 Aditya Pradja 4 1019851 Aditya, Gee, thanks for telling me where I "probably eat" in Japan. I love it when people do that. Allow me to clarify my actual experience for you. I've eaten in expensive, mid-range, cheap & kaiten (revolving) sushi places all over Japan (Tokyo, Osaka, Kyoto, Kobe, Nara, Sapporo, Kumamoto, suburbs of these places, and inaka), as well as Japanese family gatherings (I lived with a Japanese boyfriend from Sakai for many years & hung out with his family/relatives + friends at their homes). In fact, I ate at a kaiten place in Sangenjaya 2.5 weeks ago (each plate less than 100 yen -- about as far from high-end as you can get) and the majority of the people were using chopsticks. As I posted in my message, I have seen both ways of eating sushi: with chopsticks and with hands. Chopsticks are more prevalent than hands, but Japanese people like to remind foreigners that it's perfectly acceptable to eat sushi with their hands, and I've seen that done on occasion as well. Next time you're wondering about someone's experience, actually asking for clarification is a less condescending way of gathering information. Cheers, Deb H. (not Debbie, thanks) Thu Apr 05 14:10:54 -0700 2001 1019848 0 Deb H. 5 1019856 Relax there Deb, I was in Japan as well in 94, and stayed in Japan for about three months with my cousins, who lived in Japan since she was nine, and married a Japanese man. We had many family gathering, and for the most part (I would say nine out of ten) most of our Japanese friends and relatives, would eat sushi, especially rolls, with hands, and only some European friends, or Japanese who's been overseas (studied in the US) would use chopsticks when they ate sushi. In fact, I was laughed at because I was trying to find chopsticks in my first several gatherings. Perhaps time has changed, now in 2001, most Japanese who happened to get influenced by the US, and now that so many Japanese students studied abroad, returned home and started using chopsticks. Who knows. It is probably changing. But I had a small gathering with some Japanese friends last Christmas in Manhattan, they made their own sushi and we all ate them with our bare hands. And we laughed at our American friends from using chopsticks. Well.. anyway, everyone has a different experience, and time does change in fact, so perhaps people are starting to use chopsticks now. But the most traditional way of eating sushi, and to enjoy it more is to use your hands. Just like in India, where everyone eat using their hands, imagine eating lamb (goat) curry using your hands, it can get really messy. But it does make the food taste better, not your fingers off course. Thu Apr 05 15:11:25 -0700 2001 1019851 0 Aditya Pradja 6 1019864 aditya, no one's saying you didn't see folks eating w/ their hands, that you and your japanese friends don't eat w/ their hands or even that numbers of japanese folks don't enjoy eating w/ their hands...ie, that your experience is somehow inauthentic...i think we're just pointing out the fallacy in making blanket statements. times changing? nature of gathering? i was born in japan in 1977, grew up there til about 1987...never - except those childhood cucumber rolls - ate sushi w/ hands...even at our informal (yes, japanese) family gatherings. so rather than just make the times changing argument (and, thereby, preserving your original statement) maybe just own up that what you suggested - that as some national/traditional practice japanese eat sushi w/ their hands - isn't necessarily/across the board true? get in where you fit in, but don't tell me about my own traditional/cultural practice...or tell others that we all do it -- eating sushi or what have you -- one way that said, where do you like to go for sushi in nyc? cj Thu Apr 05 15:52:43 -0700 2001 1019856 0 cj 7 1019871 As I said, we all had different experience, just because you're japanese, it doesn't mean anything Thu Apr 05 16:53:30 -0700 2001 1019864 0 Aditya Pradja 7 1019873 I'm with you, cj. My point is that sushi is eaten *both* ways (chopsticks and hands), and that Aditya's original statement "Another thing. Sushi is eaten with your hands, not chopsticks," is an incorrect generalization. I don't buy the 'changing times' argument either. Aditya was there for three months in '94. cj, you were there 77 to 87. I was there mid-89 to Jan. 00 straight. Lots of people (yes, actual factual Japanese people) eating sushi with chopsticks during that time. More people eating temaki & maki with hands vs. nigiri, but still lots of chopsticks going on there (a majority). I'm happy to slot Aditya in the purist/traditional camp of people who prefer to eat sushi with their hands, but reject the general assertion that 'sushi is eaten with your hands, not chopsticks.' Best, Deb H. Thu Apr 05 17:05:33 -0700 2001 1019864 0 Deb H. 8 1019879 Oops, correction. I was in Japan mid-89 to Jan. '99, not Jan. '00. My bad. Deb H. Thu Apr 05 17:36:31 -0700 2001 1019873 0 Deb H. 7 1019905 Where do I like to get my sushi.?? Here are some of my favorite places, Sushi Yasuda Kuruma Zushi SushiSay SushiZen SushiDen Omen Sometimes Nobu Next Door, although I hate the wait, but definitely Matsuhisa in LA. Personally, I don't really like sushi, but I love Sashimi more, I don't like eating rice, not because of its taste, but health-related reason. Fri Apr 06 09:53:24 -0700 2001 1019864 0 Aditya Pradja 8 1019915 Sashimi, on the other hand, is normally eaten with chopsticks. Fri Apr 06 12:06:27 -0700 2001 1019905 0 Eric Eto 9 1019917 Yes, I know that Fri Apr 06 12:56:35 -0700 2001 1019915 0 Aditya Pradja 10 1019919 Sorry Aditya, I just had to take a little poke on this thread and provide a little comic relief. I like all of the sushi/sashimi places you mentioned. They are all a cut above the other sushi places in town; no gimmick, no super-sized cuts, no conveyors. For non- or quasi-sushi Japanese, have you been to Sakagura for sake and food? Fri Apr 06 13:34:12 -0700 2001 1019917 0 Eric Eto 11 1019921 I've been to Sakagura twice, but I haven't been there lately. I heard about that place from a Japanese friend of mine. It's really nice and I loved the Sake selections they had. With the new discovery and recent reviews by non-Japanese people, this place is probably now filled by New Yorkers on weekends. I hate that. It was truly like you're in Japan before. Who knows how this place looks like these days !!?? Fri Apr 06 13:56:43 -0700 2001 1019919 0 Aditya Pradja 12 1019928 Aditya, you write: "With the new discovery and recent reviews by non-Japanese people, this place is probably now filled by New Yorkers on weekends. I hate that. It was truly like you're in Japan before. Who knows how this place looks like these days !!??" I'm curious as to what aspect you hate. Is it the fact that the restaurant may be more crowded now, whereas before you could get in more easily? Has the service level declined? Has the quality of the food declined or become less authentic in an attempt to appeal to the non-Japanese? Or is it that you like to be surrounded by Japanese people in a Japanese restaurant, and resent the presence of other non-Japanese such as yourself? Curious, Deb H. Fri Apr 06 15:44:11 -0700 2001 1019921 0 Deb H. 13 1019931 Lighten up there, I just don't like to wait too long or have to reserve 1 month in advance for a Restaurant. Hopefully, it won't turn out this way. And yes, I would rather eat in a restaurant that's not too crowded and noisy. With the new discovery, hopefully there will not be five million people waiting around the starways. Fri Apr 06 16:29:40 -0700 2001 1019928 0 Aditya Pradja 12 1019933 It's pretty doubtful that Sakagura is being mobbed by hordes of non-Japanese New Yorkers. And even if it is, I think I'd welcome it as long as it doesn't become just another crazy bar scene. The food there is such a departure from your standard Japanese restaurant that it would be good for non-Japanese to taste and experience many of Sakagura's offerings. I believe I'm with you that on the one hand I want to let everyone know about this place, but on the other hand, it might behoove my own interest to keep this place a secret. I guess I'll remain content that I can keep this place and let the hordes wait for tables at the Yamas of NYC. Besides, I think you can prevent the mass gringo-ization by putting enough natto (fermented soy bean) items on the menu. BTW, I went to Sakagura on a Friday night not too long ago, and it was serene as ever. I normally go there during the week, since it's a couple blocks from the office. As for the catty remark earlier, my apologies again. It was against my better judgment, but the opportunity was too good to pass up. Fri Apr 06 17:01:53 -0700 2001 1019921 0 Eric Eto 3 1019901 Hey Deb, You've always pulled through for me with flying colors, so I'm putting my faith in you on this one. Re. this whole "sushi eaten with your hands" business: On those rare(?) late nights in Roppongi, when the pack wants to go for after-hours sushi, and I am in a physical state where my manual dexerity with chopsticks is measurably below a daikon's manual dexerity with the same, and as long as I am well-behaved, and not eating like Grog the Caveman, is it okay for me to politely eat my sushi with my fingers? If the answer is "yes", then my nights out just became an hour or two longer! Yoroshiku, Andy Fri Apr 06 07:45:56 -0700 2001 1019826 0 Andy P. 4 1019907 Answer's yes. Hooray! Drink and be merry. Best, Deb H. Fri Apr 06 10:20:25 -0700 2001 1019901 0 Deb H. 1 1019824 love how you can speak on behalf of us...thanks! growing up in japan, when we'd go out for sushi, everyone used chopsticks except for the young kids eating cucumber rolls. and, thinking back on it, that was b/c it was a more 'fun' way to eat for us kids. we got a kick out of it. i'm not saying no japanese eats sushi w/ their hands, just that it is not the national practice you seem to suggest. your other blanket statement -- re: the quality and size of sushi -- is questionable to me as well. i won't disagree w/ the fresh part, but 'tiny'? some are, but it is not the national standard in japan that sushi is 'very tiny'. typically it is smaller than at yama, of course, and probably a bit smaller than average american servings (yama is known for its oversized pieces), but that's the case of sushi, soda cans and everything else. smaller, but very tiny? the only time i've had very tiny sushi is part of a kaiseiki meal. cj Thu Apr 05 10:53:53 -0700 2001 1019820 0 cj 1 1019827 Aside from the larger-than-usual portions, I do not see what the fuss is about with Yama. The freshness? Freshness should be standard at any sushi restaurant and the fact that Yama's fish is fresh does not, in my mind, make it a superior restaurant. The fact that the cuts of sushi and shashimi are larger than usual? To me, that is tantamount to saying that Yama is a good restaurant simply because the portions are large. In fact, one reason that I no longer frequent Yama (even though it is around the corner from my apartment) is because of the surly attitude of the guy at the door who takes names and makes people wait. One recent episode among many: My wife and I called recently and asked if there was a wait. He told us that there wasn't. We arrived less than five minutes later and he said that the wait would be twenty minutes. When we questioned this, he literally shoo'ed us out the door with his hand. Now, I hate to rant about one obnoxious guy with a clipboard, but that "we don't need your business because we're so popular anyway" attitude, coupled with food that is not exceptional to begin with, was enough for me to dine elsewhere from now on. Iso is on Second Avenue and 11th Street, ten minutes by foot from Yama. It is comparable in price and far superior to Yama. Leave Yama to the tourists who wait on line for an average meal. Thu Apr 05 11:42:18 -0700 2001 1019820 0 Asher 2 1019832 I concurr with the assertion that Yama has merely average food. What I don't agree with is that their policy of serving huge chunks of fish on a small bed of rice for sushi is comparable to large portions in another cuisine. Balance is a necessary part of all well prepare dishes in any cuisine. Yama's enormous slabs of fish are equivalent to something like coq au vin made with loads of chicken, very little sauce and no pearl onions or mushrooms. Or, put another way- if in sushi and sashimi the cutting is the "cooking" then their sushi is not cooked enough! I cannot abide sushi that does not fit into one's mouth in one easy bite. This undermines the entire basis of the cuisine. Thu Apr 05 12:05:30 -0700 2001 1019827 0 Stefany B. 2 1020318 I am one of those people who think Yama is a great place to eat sushi in NYC. I have eaten at many sushi restaurants in NYC, and nothing compared to Yama in terms of the generous portions and the freshness of the fish. I am not a tourist, and neither are my friends who also think Yama has great sushi. Eat it with your chopsticks or with your hands. If you don't like large pieces, ask them to cut it for you. They can also cut the rolls in 8 pieces if you like. No question in my mind... Yama has the best sushi in NYC. Mon Nov 11 14:43:09 -0800 2002 1019827 0 Haphols 1 4387634 We've had nothing but good experiences here. Sometimes it gets busy, sometimes the service sucks, but I can say the same for many a place in NY. The one thing that has always been consistently good is the food. I get that the portion sizes can put some folks off, but it isn't an issue with us. The fresh fish is the best that we've had, and we've bounced through most of the places discussed in the thread... Wed Feb 04 13:10:47 -0800 2009 1019820 92152 zk614 2 4387649 Are you saying that Yama serve the "best" fish like Yasuda or 15 East? I will have to disagree mainly because I don't want other people to get the wrong impression of what best sushi and sashimi should be like. Wed Feb 04 13:15:13 -0800 2009 4387634 54254 kobetobiko 1 4388032 All proves that there are differnt strokes for different folks. While it may be a bunch of ignorant hicks chowing down with chopsticks at Yama, their business model works even without the business from the purists. And that leaves the better places less crowded for the cognescenti where they can gather to eat properly sized pieces with thier hands and pat each other on the back for their superiority... I do not think it is the best sushi in NY... but it certainly hits the spot as an order in for a late night at work or a weekend lunch Wed Feb 04 15:05:32 -0800 2009 1019820 99909 msny98