189880 Tue Sep 26 11:44:03 -0700 2000 67 18 Manhattan 0 1014399 I know this might spark some discord among the hoards of Babbo-lovers (and I sooo wanted to join your ranks!), but I have to relate a very disappointing experience (primarily service-wise) I had on Sunday night. My new fiancee and I were taking out some newleywed friends from France for a big triple celebration - their wedding, our engagement (just this weekend!), and my birthday. When I called late last week for a reservation, I explained how special the night was. When we got there, the hostess (who was very nice) congratulated us, but until dessert, there was no other acknowledgement or special treatment by the staff. I didn't expect anyone to go overboard, but the server didn't bother sending the sommelier over when we asked, acted put out when asked to explain the menu to my French friends (who were trying to keep kosher and bewildered by some of the ingredients), and started out the meal by saying (rather condescendingly I thought), "I don't know if you've ever been here before, but normally everyone orders three courses each. Of course, if it's impossible because of your personal restrictions, I suppose we can work something out." While my fiancee and I were happy with our choices (the Mint Love Letters and Beef Cheek Ravioli), my French friends didn't enjoy their simple bavette pasta much. All of us were feeling that were weren't especially welcome at Babbo - the server stopped briefly to ask if everything was okay, but didn't bother to notice my friends were picking things out of their pasta, and and hadn't eaten much on their plates (I think they were trying to be polite, and thought it was too late in the evening to be sending things back at this point.) Anyways, we finish dinner, I order a dessert which I am happy to see comes with a "happy birthday message," but my friends tell the server they don't want dessert since they didn't enjoy the pasta too much. (The server's response: "okay," with no follow up) My friends pay for dinner, leaving not a huge tip, reflecting our disappointment with the overall level of service. The manager comes over and wants to know what is wrong. My french friends, who are struggling with English, explain that they weren't much impressed with the pasta compared to what they were used to. The manager basically blames them for not complaining during the meal (a fair criticism, as there was nothing the restaurant could do to help after the meal), but then shocks us all by saying with an air of incredulity "you gotta be kidding, Italian food in France? Italian food is HORRIBLE in Paris!!" My friends are aghast, and my fiancee and I try to deflect by saying that we enjoyed our entree. I guess I should have let good enough alone, but I felt compelled to admit that I was a little disappointed that, apart from the dessert, our triple-celebration really hadn't been acknowledged. At this the manager became clearly irritated and asked, "So what did you want, the staff to come over and (here he pushed his face in close to mine) start saying "Happy Birthday" all night long?" All of us at the table were quite agog at this point, since we had all been speaking in a very calm, non-confrontational manner. Basically he refused to apologize, other than saying snippily "we're sorry you feel that way." I was mortified after having promised a lovely evening to my friends, and disappointed that such an important evening had ended on such a negative note. End result - I won't go back to Babbo and I won't send any of my friends there either. I will say that we all agreed that the little neighborhood joint we wandered into on Saturday ("The Place" on West 4th street) surpassed Babbo in every respect - the food was excellent, the service gracious, and the staff warm and solitous even without a reservation. Plus, they give 10% of proceeds to children's charities! Lesson: I'd rather spend my money where it's appreciated. Tue Sep 26 11:44:03 -0700 2000 0 Pam 1 1014400 Sorry to hear that you didn't have a good evening. Two separate issues here - the food and the lack of acknowledgement of your celebration. As I have not eaten at Babbo, I won't address the food issue. On the celebration, I am afraid that I have to agree with the Manager - although, perhaps he should have been kinder in the way that he said it - but what did you expect - seriously? They said congrats when you arrived - they did the cake thing - I am not sure, as someone who has been a Manager, what else you felt that the restaurant should have done. Thoughts anyone? Tue Sep 26 12:14:09 -0700 2000 1014399 0 sibbell 2 1014402 Sorry but I have to agree. The said happy b'day. What else did you expect. At a high end restaurant like Babbo half of the people in theplace were probably there for a special occasion. Also, I do find that my french friends no very little about Italian food. Tue Sep 26 12:29:28 -0700 2000 1014400 0 Ari 3 1014404 Okay. I knew folks would jump all over me for this. My point isn't that things were terrible at Babbo, just disappointing. We could have been more demanding about what we wanted throughout the meal, but we were trying to enjoy ourselves and not start complaining or being agressive. Maybe that's what it takes to get good service in the best places now, and if so, maybe I don't belong at those places. That said, one of the sad things I've noticed about this board (and why I don't post very often)is that people are so ready to blame diners who have negative experiences, rather than the people/establishments providing that experience. If you love Babbo, by all means don't let my experience stop you. However, if I were not a regular, and were counting on it for a special occasion, I might consider other restaurants. That's all I was trying to say. Tue Sep 26 12:39:37 -0700 2000 1014402 0 Pam 4 1014406 Unless you are a known regular, you can't really expect more than you got for your birthday. The "happy birthday message" on your dessert was their way of acknowledging it. Were you expecting free food or perhaps a free bottle of wine on your first visit because it was your birthday? If that was the case, everyone would say it was their birthday every time they went out. As far as the food problems - most good restaurants will take back a dish if after the first bite or two you express displeasure and let them know it. Sorry you had a bad time, but it seems like you went there expecting to be treated like someone special because it was your birthday. Very unlikely unless they already know you. Tue Sep 26 13:04:38 -0700 2000 1014404 0 jpbergman 5 1014407 Okay. I'm not going to nitpick, obviously everyone seems to think I was in the wrong here. Just for the record, it wasn't just my birthday. The point of the evening was a THREE-FOLD CELEBRATION: a brand-new engagement (me and my fiancee who popped the question Friday night), my friend's new wedding (they were in town to celebrate), my birthday was the least important thing actually. Tue Sep 26 13:15:54 -0700 2000 1014406 0 Pam 6 1014413 Forgot to add...happy birthday. And congrats on the engagement! We here at Chowhound (unlike most waiters and managers) DO genuinely care about such things! Where are you thinking of holding the reception? I'm a huge fan of Xavier's in Piermont for catered affairs. ciao Tue Sep 26 13:35:07 -0700 2000 1014407 0 Jim Leff 7 1014419 Jim- Thanks for the congratulations! The engagement is so new that we haven't even begun to contemplate the reception, but we'll certainly keep Xavier's in mind. I love this website, and I do appreciate honest feedback, and the time it took for you to respond to my post. That said, (and in the interest of leaving things on a more positive note), I wanted to clarify what I was judging Babbo against. I'm a frequent restaraunt-goer, and have gone to other "Big Deal" joints, so I am certainly aware that most folks who dine there are celebrating. I've gone to Le Bernardin and Picholine, for example, and had WONDERFUL experiences for special occasions. I didn't have huge expectations for freebies or singing or anything out of the ordinary like that, but at each place, there was a gracious welcome by the server along the lines of "Welcome, I hear you're celebrating, can I offer you an aperitif while you read the menu?" (Babbo gave us the choice of still or sparkling water) And both Picholine and Le Bernardin sent over sommeliers who were happy to help us, along with servers happy to explain the menu (like another poster here our server never even bothered to tell us the specials, I guess she thought we weren't worth it). Little things like that go a long, long, way toward making a customer feel welcome and appreciated. And when I asked for a quiet table in advance, unlike Babbo that request was honored. And though no one responded to my praise of "The Place," I have to say that I would definitely have my next celebration there. I think it's easy in New York to go for the "Big Deal," but I'm increasingly finding that it's the little jewel in my neighborhood that offers the more memorable experience. Tue Sep 26 14:11:45 -0700 2000 1014413 0 Pam 8 1014423 Thanks, Pam. Again, I think most people were bristling at your "special occasion" expectations. Your other feelings about the restaurant (especially as dismayingly corroborated by Erica) stick on their own. I thought Elaine turned the point around very very elegantly by pointing out that "a truly top-notch restaurant should feel like a celebration no matter what the occasion is." Sorry, maybe I'm being dumb, but I'm missing your reference to "The Place"...? Was that in another thread? ciao Tue Sep 26 15:06:51 -0700 2000 1014419 0 Jim Leff 9 1014424 I love how these threads develop along the way! My original reference to "The Place" was at the bottom of my first post on Babbo. Basically, I said I had a far better overall experience there, even though it was a neighborhood joint and I and my fiance and friends were walk-ins. The food is kind of "modern American" I guess, we shared a lovely grilled octopus salad and I had a rich and slightly intoxicating pork loin with couscous in a balsamic and dried cherry (I think) reduction. Good wine, fairly priced, romantic dim subterranean rooms with candlelight and vintage jazz playing. An air of kindness permeates the place - as I mentioned in my first post I like the idea that the owners donate 10% of profits to children's charities too. Tue Sep 26 15:15:19 -0700 2000 1014423 0 Pam 10 1014425 Of course, my kosher friends were NOT sharing the octopus or pork! Just to clarify... ( : Tue Sep 26 15:17:46 -0700 2000 1014424 0 Pam 11 1014436 Oops, missed this post before I commented on the octopus! Jim - feel free to delete ;> Rachel Tue Sep 26 17:28:40 -0700 2000 1014425 0 Rachel Perlow 12 1014470 A Zippy the Pinhead strip last week featured Zippy saying "Babbo" repeatedly and his wife Zerbina saying "Nobu" repeatedly. They end up eating at the counter at Chock Full O'Nuts. Bill Griffith, the genius behind Zippy, is a devoted chowhound. Many of his strips are set in authentic diners, drive-ins, etc. Wed Sep 27 12:03:49 -0700 2000 1014436 0 Bob W. 10 1014427 I PROMISE this isn't like "pick on Pamela day"! But I actually don't much like the "we donate X% to charity" routine. I feel like it's just a marketing line. There are all sorts of ways places can be socially conscious, especially restaurants. How about sending leftovers to soup kitchens, for example? But as for donating a slim percentage of profits to charity...I don't know. Give me, the customer, back the 10% discount and let me donate it to the charity of MY choice. And you, restaurateur, do some of the very significant things you can do to help and just be quiet about it. And the owner, if he really wants to be charitable, can tithe some of his profit off the true net profit, rather than inflating prices and charging it against customers on what truly amounts to a gross basis...and then turning around and hyping the idea back to us as some sort of noble sales point. Sorry, I guess I'm just in the mood to confess my controversial opinions today (g) ciao Tue Sep 26 15:46:15 -0700 2000 1014424 0 Jim Leff 11 1014429 Yikes Jim! I'm only trying to contribute to the greater good! (: Actually, I hear you about your criticisms. I would never go to a place BECAUSE they claim to donate to charity, and I'm certainly, as a cynical sort, inclined to doubt their motivations. But this place really doesn't overcharge for its kind (entrees are $14 to $20), and doesn't make a big deal about the charity angle. My boyfriend and I noticed a small notation on the menu, and since he's a pediatrician, he heartily approves of open advocacy of children's charities. All other things being equal, I like going to a place that's giving back to the community, whether it takes the form of food donations or profit percentages. Tue Sep 26 16:03:04 -0700 2000 1014427 0 Pam 12 1014431 I'm glad to see that by your smiley face you realize I'm riffing generally rather than picking on you. And we agree in sentiment that good causes--and those who support them--deserve our support. So, you're marrying A Doctor? Bet your mom's proud... Tue Sep 26 16:35:46 -0700 2000 1014429 0 Jim Leff 12 1014432 Essscusse me...."boyfriend"?...he's your fiancee now!! And congratulations. Tue Sep 26 16:40:58 -0700 2000 1014429 0 sibbell 11 1014437 I have to agree with Pam on the charity thing. This marketing ploy speaks to me -- much more so than other restaurant marketing ploys. But I thought this topic deserves its own thread and was greater than just Manhattan, so I started one on the General Topics board. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/286603#1537781 Tue Sep 26 17:31:11 -0700 2000 1014427 0 John Piekarski 11 1014443 "...I don't know. Give me, the customer, back the 10% discount and let me donate it to the charity of MY choice." Exactly how many of us feel about taxes! Don't you agree? Tue Sep 26 20:22:23 -0700 2000 1014427 0 I agree 12 1014452 If you really want to talk about this, please post a thread about Not About Food. Everyone who posts here presumably also reads. So please show the same consideration for those reading along that you yourself would like to see. Start digressions by starting new threads...on different boards if necessary. Wed Sep 27 01:17:19 -0700 2000 1014443 0 Jim Leff 11 1014455 I am generally not very interested in knowing what organizations restaurateurs might choose to donate to, but I do like the fact that many at least give leftover food to charity. That is a good way to make sure it doesn't go to waste, but can help people, and it doesn't even cost them money because they would have thrown it away, otherwise. Wed Sep 27 02:58:07 -0700 2000 1014427 0 Michael 11 1015196 Actually, I see your point. I recently read Joan Kroc's (McDonald's widow) obituary and learned that the far majority of her life's philanthropy was given anonymously. I was really impressioned by that. I don't want to see that on a menu either. Fri Nov 14 00:20:16 -0800 2003 1014427 0 Lawrence 10 1014434 OK Pam, I have to ask: Were these the same French friends who are mostly kosher? I'm not bashing that, I have friends & relatives that are like that (veggie, dairy or fish out but kosher in the home), one even says swordfish is kosher because it has scales when its a baby (I've always thought swordfish wasn't kosher), however she's the one that, when pregnant and craving meat, gave up all pretense and ordered lamb chops last time we went out! What I am questioning, if its these same friends, is sharing the octopus! Octopus is in the same category as squid, mussels, lobster, etc., and is definitely NOT a kosher fish. Tue Sep 26 17:24:06 -0700 2000 1014424 0 Rachel Perlow 10 1014456 Leslie Brenner made almost all of the points that I wanted to make. I don't blame you for not wanting to go back to Babbo. I also recevied the "Have you dined here before?" And the "Order three courses" rigamarole. Our waiter turned out to be fine in the end (even if I was disappointed with the food). But good restaurants (and NOT just expensive ones) should care about how their patrons feel. If you were guilty of some misdemeanors (and I'm not going to judge whether you were or not), they certainly didn't merit the rude treatment you received. It's just inconceivable to me that the equivalent experience could occur, say, in a Danny Meyer restaurant. Last week, at my fabulous meal at the Kabab Cafe, Ali asked me about the food, and for the first time ever, I criticized one of the dishes. I told him about that I found the stuffed vegetable special kind of bland and boring compared to everything else I had eaten. I have no idea if he saw any merit in my position (which was the consensus of the table), but at the very least he made me feel that my opinion was important to him. And now, with luck, he'll know I mean it when I compliment other dishes, and I'm not a *complete* pushover. Of course, you can't talk to the chef at Babbo. But one of the roles of the waiter is to mediate between you and the chef. The waiter is "getting it" from both sides, so the role is not always easy. Wed Sep 27 04:48:56 -0700 2000 1014424 0 Dave Feldman 6 1014447 Pam, I don't think you're wrong, and I'm sure there are many others who don't, too. It's my guess that it's just that those who disagree with you are finding it easier to express themselves. First, I disagree with the assessment that most or even half of the tables in a restaurant like Babbo are celebrating a special occasion. For the past year, I've been privy to the reservation sheets of a NYC restaurant that's quite a bit more expensive than Babbo (though I'm not really at liberty to say which), and I'd say that no more than a tenth of the tables indicate a birthday or anniversary. No doubt a few more are celebrating something but don't mention it when making the reservation. Perhaps a higher percentage are celebrating at Babbo, but it would really surprise me if it were half. People dine out expensively a lot in Manhattan these days--there's a lot more dough floating around. Also, in your original post, you mention almost as an afterthought that you were disappointed that more wasn't made of your celebration. To me it didn't sound at all as thought you expected bells and whistles. Still, I do think a restaurant of the caliber of Babbo should not only provide much more attentive and professional service than what you describe--for any table--and for a birthday-engagement-foreign guests- wedding situation, a bit more of an effort could have been made (an aperitif or an extra little something, or at least an acknowledgement by your server). There are a few things that really bother me. If your server really said, "normally everyone orders three courses each" that's pretty outrageous, unless you specifically asked what people normally order or how large the portions are or something. The "I suppose" (we can arrange something) remark that followed is hard to fathom, in any case. Not sending over the sommelier when you asked to see him is unacceptable. Regarding the manager's crack about Italian food in Paris, whether it's true or not, the manager was insulting his guests! Also, as for complaining about food at the proper time, I think that's a difficult and sticky subject (and one that's already been discussed somewhere here). But at a good restaurant, professional, attentive service dictates that if people are picking at their food, or hardly touch their food, the server should be the one to ask if there's anything wrong. That means more than a cursory, "Is everything okay?" a question we hear all too often without the server waiting for a reply. IMHO it's the server's role to make it comfortable for a guest to voice disappointment over a dish rather than putting the guest in the position of complaining, which no one feels like doing during a celebratory meal. I know this is asking a lot, but restaurants such as Babbo charge a lot. To me all of this speaks to a general service problem in New York (and throughout much of the country). With the current restaurant boom, there are a grillion restaurants to staff, and not nearly enough well-trained--or even trained at all--waitstaff to go around. As for the kosher foods issue, I do agree with Jim about the efficacy of trying to order kosher in a non-Kosher restaurant. I agree that it's not fair to a restaurant to make those kinds of demands. However, there are plenty of people who are not strictly observant, but can't reconcile themselves to eating certain non-Kosher foods, such as pork or shellfish. That shouldn't be that hard for a restaurant to work with. And finally, I'm wondering--you mention that your friends left "not a huge tip." Do you know what kind of percentage? Five? Twelve? French people who don't travel much in the U.S. aren't used to tipping, since service is included in France. I cringe to think of some of the tips our visiting French friends have tried to leave. I'm only asking this to try to understand the manager's hostility. Oh--best wishes on your engagement! Tue Sep 26 23:55:09 -0700 2000 1014407 0 Leslie Brenner 7 1014467 >> There are a few things that really bother me. If your server really said, "normally everyone orders three courses each" that's pretty outrageous, unless you specifically asked what people normally order or how large the portions are or something>> Look, I was just at Babbo, if you read my response in this thread, and when this was said to me it wasn't weird or demanding. It was meant to be helpful, as a way to put to gether a nice meal from the menu. The dialogue went as follows: Server: Have you eaten at Babbo before? Us: No, we haven't. Server: Ok, most people order 3 courses, (gesturing toward our open menu) with the primi piatti being the 2nd course. Us: ok, thanks. That's all. I assume he pointed out the primi piatti being the middle course since the word primi might confuse us as the 1st course. The menu is laid out: appetizer/primi piatti/sucundi piatti so it was clear to me. This was all in a context of friendliness, he had already introduced himself to us. There was nothing "outrageous" about this behavior. Obviously, Pam's server was not getting along with her in the 1st place and that's where the problem lies. Before you criticize this outrageous behavior why not go to Babbo and experience it for yourself? My friend and I ordered the tasting menu, but I would have felt just as comfortable ourdering 1 or 2 courses. The waiters suggesting was not pressure or anything. Leslie--don't take this personally, I love reading your posts :-) --Jessica Wed Sep 27 11:53:34 -0700 2000 1014447 0 Jessica Shatan 8 1014469 I agree with you on this, Jessica. I have been to Babbo with two friends who are always dieting--each ordered two appetizers as her entire meal and we were treated very nicely indeed. Just as nicely as when a table of four of us ordered the tasting menu with accompanying wines. I do think that Pam's experience may have been a confluence of unfortunate misunderstandings and unrealistic expectations (not that there is EVER any excuse for a server to be rude or even impatient). And I love reading your posts AND Leslie's. Wed Sep 27 12:03:12 -0700 2000 1014467 0 Martha Gehan 9 1014473 There is, perhaps, no excuse for a server to become impatient, but something that looks as if it's going to be a difficult table at 11 p.m. on Sunday is also not particularly guaranteed to warm the cockles (done Italian Lifeguard style, perhaps?) of a server's weary heart. On a busy weekend, that is just about as close as it comes to Miller Time. One of the things that has always impressed me about Babbo is the way the waitstaff takes as much care in explaining, decanting and serving a $10 quarto of Arneis as they do a bottle of Quinatarelli Alzero that costs next month's rent. Wed Sep 27 12:20:40 -0700 2000 1014469 0 Pepper 8 1014480 Thanks, Jessica. I'm glad to hear how the "three courses" suggestion was put to you because it brings up a very good point about context. I was concerned about that as I read Pam's original posting, but I commented on the waiter's dialogue as reported by Pam. Without the benefit of context, tone, gestures, nuances, etc., it's impossible to get a complete picture, and that's why I added "unless you specifically asked...." The server asking in the context of "have you ever eaten at Babbo before" amounts to the same thing for me. However, the wording that Pam reports is slightly harsh. ("Normally" is harsher than "most people" and his added comment that he "supposed" they could work something out--if that's what he really said--I do find outrageous. Of course they can work something out. But I guess this is all in the nature of what goes on on these boards. All of us comment on (and even judge) what goes on in restaurants, yet we're merely responding to the reports of particular individuals, and those reports may or may not be complete or accurate. Even when we're trying to report accurately, sometimes the filter of memory changes a word here or there, or the tone gets changed because of our overall experience. And actually, I guess my post didn't really succeed, because I didn't mean to criticize the outrageous behavior at the restaurant (since I wasn't there, I don't know exactly what went on); what I meant to criticize was the outrageous behavior as reported. You're absolutely right--I should eat at Babbo. In fact it's high on my list of places I need and want to try--and I'm really looking forward to it! Wed Sep 27 13:44:37 -0700 2000 1014467 0 Leslie Brenner 7 1014468 Leslie, Thank you for your thoughtful and articulate response. It was a breath of fresh air compared to some of the hostile responses I've provoked, and I'm glad to see I'm not alone in what I experienced! Unfortunately I think what happened to us is what other folks have remarked upon - the restaurant (incorrectly) summed us up as unsophisticated rubes and decided we were only worth a certain level of treatment. Although my fiance and I had been to Babbo before, the server assumed we hadn't - and may have written us off when we didn't order a huge blowout dinner. (Since we were dining at 11pm on a Sunday night, that seemed like an enormous assumption to make on her part.) Since my friends weren't overly strict about keeping kosher (we only specified no meat products or shellfish), it wasn't too hard to find menu items that they could eat. We just got the feeling the server was irritated with having to explain everything. As for the tip, I have to confess I don't know exactly how much my friends left. However, we had conversations about tipping, so they knew the standard baseline tip was 15-20 percent here (huge by French standards), and that I had left a much larger tip the night before at a place we all had enjoyed greatly (That server got 30% - if only Babbo knew!) And thanks also for the congratulations! I'm still floating.... Wed Sep 27 11:58:27 -0700 2000 1014447 0 Pam 6 1014457 I think the restaurant's service, as you described it, was disappointing regardless of the occasion. It was probably particularly galling to you and your friends because it was a special day for you. I agree with the person who said that good service should make any meal feel special. Even if every diner in the room is celebrating something, that shouldn't diminish the importance of any one celebration, or be an excuse to treat anyone less than graciously. Without sending out free food and wine, it is possible -- and desireable -- to serve customers so that they leave thinking, "Well, we didn't get any special treats, but we ate well and were treated warmly." Wed Sep 27 09:07:19 -0700 2000 1014407 0 Sirina 6 1014492 And why, exactly, should the staff at Babbo care about your no-holds-barred triple celibation or whatever it is you happened to be happy about that day? Since the folks at Babbo obviously don't know you from a hole in the ground, why would you want or expect them to praise you about the state of your relationship or your friends' relationship, let alone the date of your birth? I hear that if you go to The Olive Garden and tell them it's your birthday, they'll bring over a big free cake. And all the waiters'll crowd around and sing Happy Birthday loudly, and there might even be shiny balloons and a lovely personal card involved. I can only dream of the glories they'd bestow upon a triple-celebrant.... Wed Sep 27 20:31:25 -0700 2000 1014407 0 alissa 5 1014415 I tend to agree. It seems that both sides are wrong here. To go to a restaurant like Babbo and expect more acknowledgment of a special celebration (double, triple, quadruple or whatever) than they got is totally unrealistic unless one is a friend of the owner. Actually, I thought it seemed pretty nice. I also wondered why the writer didn't make more of an attempt to intervene and intrepret for her French friends rather than leaving it to the poor waiter to translate. On the other hand, it is clear that the service could have been much more polite than it was. Tue Sep 26 13:46:19 -0700 2000 1014406 0 rjka 4 1014448 With all this talk of Babbo, I just wanted to share something interesting that happened several months ago and gave me a kind of warm and fuzzy feeling about the place. My boyfriend and I were going to Babbo for the first time, and in the interest of drawing from the best of everyone's experiences there, he posted a message on Chowhound and mentioned that we were going for the late seating. Several helpful suggestions were offered and a wise Chowhound named Liza wrote: "Pray that the maple marscapone cheesecake is available." Armed with all of this this knowledge we chose to forego any actual decisions on our part and went with the tasting menu with wine. We were somewhat chagrined to note that the maple mascarpone cheesecake was, alas, completely absent from the menu (both tasting and main), but the food was pretty much transcendent. At the end of the meal, filled to the brim with pumpkin lune, duck prosciutto, wild boar, we looked on on gluttonous stupor as the the waiter placed down in front of me a lovely sorbet with bitter lemon glaze (I think that's what it was) and in front of my boyfriend--whose name was on the Chowhound post, whose name was on the late seating reservation--you guessed it, a heaven sent slab of maple mascarpone cheesecake. After quizzing me at least twice "you didn't put him up to this, did you? You swear you didn't call ahead?", we beckoned the waiter over on his next trip by. "Just curious--this wasn't actually on the menu, was it?" He smiled adorably, devilishly, "Sometimes, the chef just likes to...surprise people". We stumbled into the night air, blissed to the gills and somehow culinarily safer knowing that Big Babbo was out there...watching. Kat Tue Sep 26 23:59:04 -0700 2000 1014404 0 Kat Kinsman 5 1014450 Yup. As the cheesecaked party, I must admit, it's all true. (Except for the fact that it wasn't actually -my- first time, but it's always a delicate thing admitting that.) The process by which that particular dessert got from message board to table remains a mystery. Anyway, just wanted to to very belatedly thank Liza (did -you- have something to do with this?) and everybody else for their tips way back when. Damn, that cheesecake was good. Wed Sep 27 00:32:30 -0700 2000 1014448 0 Steven Stern 3 1014405 Exactly. There's a standard issue that comes up (and drives the staff crazy) in places where everyone celebrates special occasions. Some people demand that it be REALLY special...because, well...because it's THEIR special occasion. Most people settle for standard-grade special. Especially if they're unknown to the house, and thus have no reason to expect this level of heartfelt exultation and over-the-top generosity to celebrate a customer's birthday. The concept of walking into a place like Babbo and expecting the staff to care--deeply, SINCERELY care!--that it's my birthday is pretty tough for me to get my mind around. And I'd imagine the totally inexplicable line "I would not like any dessert [which the waiter has just set down on the table] because I did not like the pasta" probably burnt out the waiter's circuitry (like asking him to compute pi to the last decimal point). I'm not sure there's a better possible reply than "ok" and sending the manager over. I think he did just right. And I think the manager had pretty much written you off and chose to indulge his stomach acid by the time he made the French/Italian crack. Which was actually more true than insulting, actually. FWIW, I don't much like Babbo. So this isn't a defense of them, it's an attempt to explain why the original poster was, IMO, out of line in behavior and expectations. I think it would elicit, more or less, similar results in most top places in NYC. Tue Sep 26 13:01:04 -0700 2000 1014402 0 Parker Rowles 4 1015141 Actually, what I think really burnt out the waiter's circuitry was that he was expected to stay at a table where nobody's been satisfied with anything the whole meal, until he was able to understand the complaints of two people who were unable to express themselves in English, while you knew exactly what they were trying to say, but were yourself unwilling to help. It looks like when the manager came he agreed with the waiter, too. Sat Nov 04 08:21:03 -0800 2000 1014405 0 Katherine 2 1014403 I guess I was expecting a table not in the middle of a noisy, busy walkway to the kitchen (we kept getting jostled), my query about the sommelier not to be ignored (I have worked as a waitress and if someone was celebrating I would always ask if they wanted champagne or wine and I would congratulate them, for example - that never happened), less condescension and more patience from the server when we explained our friends were not not native English speakers, and a respectful response from the manager when we expressed our disappointment respectfully. Truthfully, we're NOT demanding folks, and I don't think this is expecting too much for a very special occasion. Tue Sep 26 12:30:48 -0700 2000 1014400 0 Pam 3 1014410 "people are so ready to blame diners who have negative experiences, rather than the people/establishments providing that experience" Well, many of the really long indignant "I was wronged!" complaint postings we've seen have simply struck our users as uncompelling (even though we are, of course, getting only the complainer's side of the story). I'm open to others' thoughts on this, but I can't see any reason people here would have reason to tend to unfairly "blame" the posters. This is a forum for people who eat out a lot, so I'd think that, if anything, we'd be inclined to identify with the customer rather than the house. Of course, there are cases where the restaurant itself (or its friends/family/employees) gets involved in defending against negative reports on these boards. We watch carefully for this...such parties are required to state their affiliations, and if they don't (and we figure it out...which we work hard to do), we consider the restaurant to have practiced the deadly sin of shilling. In any case, I'm afraid I pretty much agree with most of the responses you've gotten, though some might have been phrased more delicately. Complaining about a dish when it's too late to fix and then hinting around about special birthday treatment do indicate to a restaurant that you're fishing for free stuff. If you didn't like your pasta, you should have complained at that point. Similarly, the table should have been complained about when you were being seated; and if you're picky about such things, you should have stipulated when reserving And I think they did more than their share of birthday recognition. And even though you did express your disappointment "respectfully" you did so in a time and way that left no avenue for the management to set things right for you. Other than award free stuff. You concluded with a restatement of "I don't think this is expecting too much for a very special occasion" but it's kind of curious to me that you don't seem to acknowledge what everyone's telling you: at least half of that restaurant was celebrating special occasions. That's what a top restaurant is about. That doesn't earn you MORE expectations. On the other hand, if you disliked your experience (leaving aside "special occasion" considerations), then the restaurant failed to please, and I feel badly (we ALL feel badly!) anytime that happens. Maybe we should leave it at that? Tue Sep 26 13:30:08 -0700 2000 1014403 0 Jim Leff 3 1014418 It's one thing to expect something special because it's your special occasion. It's another to expect something special because it's Babbo. We celebrated my birthday at Po (another Batali restaurant) a couple years ago. My brother is highly allergic to nuts, and asked about nuts. He was, unfortunately, served something with nuts in it. His reaction wasn't too bad that time, he took a pill and felt okay. They comped his meal. Being jostled, condescended to, or ignored are inexcusable in a place like Babbo. Really shouldn't happen anywhere. If you ask for the sommelier, he should come over, regardless of whether it's your birthday, your 50th wedding anniversary, or whatever. Should he come faster because it's a celebration? Why should he? Tue Sep 26 14:02:30 -0700 2000 1014403 0 Peter 3 1014440 If you don't like your table, try this next time: Take one look, and tell the host/hostess in an extremely conversational, no attitude, no assertiveness voice: "This table isn't so good. Could we possibly have another drink and wait for another table that ----fill in the blank with your preference--?" This tells the server you aren't cheap, you know what you want and why, and you are going to be a 'good' party. This has worked for me almost always. Of course, I usually come thru on all counts, and I'm the size of a small NFL linebacker. The only way to deal with baseless attitude is to counter with NO attitude and push a few of their buttons. After all, these are just waiters and greeters (who come and go and whose 'main' job this surely is not. They are not St. Paul allocating admission at the heavenly gates. The more attitude they have, the more lightweight they are as restaurant people. Tue Sep 26 18:20:51 -0700 2000 1014403 0 steve drucker 1 1014401 I'm sorry to hear that this meal fell way below your expectations. Unfortunatly that's what seemed to happen--your expectations were UP here and the meal was way down there. 1st off, your server sounds very bad, their name is on the receipt so you may want to write a letter. My server when I was there was Morgan and he was very good. The funny thing is he said the same thing about the 3 courses and it was not condescending. He asked if we had been here before and when we said no, he informed us that most people order 3 courses, with the primi piatti being the middle course. It was a helpful tip and not an order or anything. He was proud to answer all our questions as it was our 1st time there. I, too, would have expected maybe extra desserts and/or an extra dish to split to acknowledge the special night. Or a glass of prosecco or, an after-dinner drink. But I don't understand the passive stance that your french friends took, and also I think it was a poor choice for kosher friends as so much italian cooking has shellfish or pork products. But it isn't impossible, for instance the mint loveletters would've sufficed, no? Also, if their pastas didn't satisfy, then you'd think they were hungry for dessert, so it was just kind of snotty to then not have dessert--did they just sit there and watch you eat your birthday dessert?? Don't forget to be assertive, did you ask for the sommelier again? I am not blaming you, the server and manager sound really bad and I would write a letter if I were you. Tue Sep 26 12:25:08 -0700 2000 1014399 0 Jessica Shatan 1 1014409 I've been to Babbo two times and the second time I went had a very similar experience to yours, Pam. The first time, the restaurant was new, our group was big and I guess we looked pretty "cool." We had excellent service, informed, friendly and attentive. The second time, disaster. I was there with a friend from California. We are both well-traveled, both know a fair amount about food. Well, apparently we looked like two rubes to our waiter who could not have been more condescending. I overheard him telling another table about a special they had; he had neglected to tell us. When my friend asked him about it point blank, he lied and said that the other table had called in advance about it. Throughout our meal, we were clearly an afterthought and even though the food was wonderful, it was extremely unpleasant. Basically, I think the m.o. at Babbo is to give the waiters a lot of leeway to "sell the meal." Each waiter has a limited amount of time and so has to make snap decisions about which tables are going to net the most profit. We were only a deuce, and a humble-looking deuce at that. What our waiter didn't know was that I am ordinarly a huge tipper when I like the service, and that I write about food for a major newspaper. I haven't been back to Babbo since, although I did have a wonderful meal at Esca. Tue Sep 26 13:27:51 -0700 2000 1014399 0 Erica 2 1014414 Yow! What a nightmare! Did you write (in print) about your experience? I'd have said something polite but very firm to break up that waiter's rhythm. But as has been discussed on these boards before, nobody likes confrontation when dining. But anything would have been better than that snobbish treatment. I only went once to Babbo, with a reviewer who was recognized, so we were treated REAL well. But I nonetheless found the food to only barely peak into inspired territory, and only with a few dishes. Of course, my disappointment with even strafing inspiration reflects my own heightened expectations! Tue Sep 26 13:44:35 -0700 2000 1014409 0 Jim Leff 2 1014435 I had a similar experience there, I think I wrote in about it. The waiter treated us like we were dining with a half-price coupon, while the table next to us was told about specials we had not heard of, and generally swooned over. We had to beg to get the waiter to bring another glass of wine. I notice this a lot in "hot" restaurants, where they quickly size you up as either a big spender or a slug. Can we assume this happens during the bottle ordering--wine and/or water? Do I need to get a fake tan and a cellphone? Tue Sep 26 17:27:05 -0700 2000 1014409 0 karen 1 1014412 I think that if you expect something in particular from a restaurant re: a celebration, it's best to discuss it with them not only at the time you make your reservation, but when you arrive. When celebrating a birthday (for example, recently my Dad's at Le Bernardin), I've found that it really helps the waiter to have the birthday boy/girl pointed out - not only in terms of bringing complementary/decorated dessert, etc. but in knowing who NOT to give the check to, etc. Similarly, I've never had a whispered confidence to the waiter or sommelier ("we're celebrating their engagement", while ordering champagne) fail to elicit some sort of recognition (usually small, mind you, I'm not looking for streamers and balloons) from the restaurant. But if you discuss it with the waiter, he can make sure what he's doing pleases you - i.e., Le B. waiter proposed an after-dinner drink for my Dad, but I know he'd rather drink decaf - and vice versa. You can't expect a restaurant to plan your celebration for you. Everyone has their own expectations and they can't divine them - some people, like me, would be embarassed by a candle or singing waiter, others love it. That's why you have to speak up - nicely! This is not to excuse poor service or anything else - a truly top-notch restaurant should feel like a celebration no matter what the occasion is. Tue Sep 26 13:34:35 -0700 2000 1014399 0 Elaine 1 1014416 I also recently went to Babbo. While I wasn't overwhelmed by the food, I had a very good meal, and will definitely return. Two particular things about your post strike me, though. 1) Celebrations: Like others here, I wouldn't want or expect anything to be done. My wife and I agreed, early in our courtship, that we would NEVER inflict the "singing waiter" on each other. At most, a wish for a "happy XXX" at the end of the meal is fine with us. If you DID want something done, I think you should have specified. 2) Your waiter sounds like a jerk. I'd write and complain. Interestingly, our waiter was not only nice, but, when I asked if the meals were portioned for 2 courses (American style) or 3 courses (Italian style) he said that what he recommended for a couple was 2 appetizers, 1 pasta, and 2 main courses. We did this, and had a large but not huge meal. Tue Sep 26 13:54:05 -0700 2000 1014399 0 peter 2 1014433 Peter, I understand your preference for no bells and whistles when it comes to a celebration. On the other hand, in Pam's instance, I must disagree with you on whether Babbo acted accordingly. In my opinion, they did not! When somebody makes a reservation and points out that there is a double celebration taking place, in addition to the fact that one of those celebrating couples is in from Paris, then there is no excuse to NOT recognize the occasion. That doesn't mean 'singing waiters' or anything horribly embarassing or intrusive to other diners. But at the very least,a restaurant of Babbo's caliber should certainly instruct the waiter to give some congratulatory lip service to the reveling diners. Just my $.02, of course. Tue Sep 26 17:16:49 -0700 2000 1014416 0 JimmyZ. 3 1014438 A triple celebration with out of the country guests? While bells and whistles aren't necessary, attentive service would have been a nice touch -- and in the restaurant's economic interest. Celebrating both a wedding and an engagement would have called for a nice bottle of champagne -- especially if the groom-to-be is a doctor! And everybody would have had dessert. By the way, I've had some killer Italian in Paris. Tue Sep 26 17:44:12 -0700 2000 1014433 0 John Piekarski 4 1014446 you people are ridiculous. since when do restaurants have to give expensive items to people just because they say it's a celebration? you're passing judgement based on one side of the story -- when the vast majority of people who eat there love it. Tue Sep 26 23:54:10 -0700 2000 1014438 0 matt 1 1014417 I'm not taking sides, I simply have a question related to your eveing. I'm uninitiated when it comes to Kosher food restrictions. I'm wondering how tricky is it to go to a non-kosher restaurant like Babbo and feel comfortable ordering an interesting meal? I know that people who are deathly allergic to some foods always run a risk. pat Tue Sep 26 13:58:31 -0700 2000 1014399 0 pat hammond 2 1014420 It shouldn't be too tough on principle. My friends just wanted to avoid anything prepared with poultry, meat, and shellfish, so asked for vegetarian and fish-based dishes instead. Tue Sep 26 14:13:42 -0700 2000 1014417 0 Pam 3 1014445 it's like going to a sushi restaurant and ordering PBJ. the esoteric ingredients are the whole point of Babbo; I think you should have thought about that before choosing the restaurant. As for your disappointment over the way you were treated, i think it's ridiculous to expect special favors just because you were celebrating. Tue Sep 26 23:49:17 -0700 2000 1014420 0 matt 2 1014422 People who are seriously observant cannot eat food from non kosher kitchens. It's not enough to simply ORDER meat or dairy, or stick to vegetables (or even to dine in vegan restaurants), because there's more to it than merely avoiding improper ingredients or mixings of meat/dairy. There are blessings to be said, concerns to be addressed by authority figures, etc, etc. Those who keep "slightly" kosher and selectively observe these rules should not, in my opinion, expect kitchens to be stricter about their observance than they themselves are (in other words, screaming bloody murder over an un-accounted for piece of sausage in your soup is innapropriate, though a good waiter and chef--at least those in service-minded places--should do their earnest best to try to avoid ANYTHING you state a desire to avoid). of course allergies are a different issue; people can get sick or even die. But highly allergic ingredients are well known about; chefs are very aware of them, and wouldn't dream about including, say, peanuts, in an inadvertant way. This is just my opinion, and I'm sure I'll get flamed for it, but so be it.. ciao Tue Sep 26 14:58:36 -0700 2000 1014417 0 Jim Leff 3 1014426 See Elaine's reply in a new thread on the Kosher Board (Elaine...I moved this myself this time, but PLEASE PLEASE everybody start new threads for new topics!). Look for "Kosherish" Tue Sep 26 15:35:14 -0700 2000 1014422 0 Jim Leff 3 1014671 How then would you respond to someone who is vegetarian and finds an inadvertant piece of meat in their food? As far as i am concerned, when one is paying for a meal (particularly an expensive one) you have a right to expect that the restaurant will work around any and all dietary restrictions, especially when they are made known in advance and requested in a polite manner Fri Oct 06 12:55:46 -0700 2000 1014422 0 joe 4 1014674 Except that some chefs, including Batali, tend to use meat for flavor instead of merely as big slabs o' protein. And if you are eating at a restaurant run by such a chef (Union Pacific and Palladin come to mind), you are bound to find meat in almost everything unless you are extremely specific in your wants and not too choosy about what comes out of the kitchen. When you are paying for a meal, you have the right to expect a decent rendition of the food that the restaurant serves, no more, no less. One has no right to cause a scene at Zen Palate because they won't cook one a steak. One has no right to expect Bouley Bakery to make spaghetti and meatballs because one dislikes all that heavy stuff, to expect Second Avenue Deli to make a real cheesecake, nor to expect Patisserie Claude refuses to bake one a bagel. When a kitchen does decide to accommodate one's eccentric desires, they are doing one a mitzvah, and it is good to remember that. Fri Oct 06 14:16:32 -0700 2000 1014671 0 Pepper 5 1014679 I'm replying this thread on the General Topics board. -VF Fri Oct 06 15:11:30 -0700 2000 1014674 0 VF 1 1014454 It sounds to me like many of you have waaaaay too much time on your hands. Nitpicking over the fact that you ONLY received a plate with Happy Birthday or whatever written on it? Give me a break. Wht did you want? A band? As for picking things out of the bavette, I've had the bavette. It's toasted garlic, lemon basil and tomatoes. What were they picking out? The tomatoes? I find people have the tendency to exacerbate on these posts, so I totally don't believe the extreme reaction of the manager at Babbo. The former bellicose manager left in July, the new manager is almost painfully timid, I know he wasn't "in your face". But the whole story sure does make a great tale, doesn't it? Wed Sep 27 02:46:43 -0700 2000 1014399 0 aislestorm 2 1014463 Wow. That's an amazingly hostile response. Unless you were at the restaurant, how can you "know" the manager wasn't in my face? If it's "nitpicking" to be unhappy when you're jostled, ignored, and condescended to, then I guess I'm guilty as charged. Wed Sep 27 11:20:28 -0700 2000 1014454 0 Pam 3 1014496 Jostled, ignored and condescended to at Babbo? I really don't think so. I've never been treated with anything less than the utmost courtesy. I think you need to visit again with absolutely no expectations of anything less than a great meal and see what happens. I find that when you ask the proper questions, treat the server with the respect he(or she) deserves and you'll get the same back in kind. But of course, you won't go back, will you? You'd rather post about what a lousy time you had. That's okay. It just means more of us not expecting the world at our feet will be able to get a reservation much more easily. I'm not hostile. I'm just tired of reading posts from people who think they know more than the professionals who run the place do. Thu Sep 28 03:16:08 -0700 2000 1014463 0 aislestorm 4 1014497 "I'm just tired of reading posts from people who think they know more than the professionals who run the place do." Well, that's pretty absurd. But before your message ignites 250 redundant replies bursting with carping outrage, I'd like to make a point. _I_ am tired of reading posts from people who pile onto enormous discussions to express their two cents without bothering to notice that every possible angle has already been covered to stone-cold death. Folks (I'm not just talking to you, aislestorm): this is NOT a chat room. This is NOT a Usenet group. This is a tightly focused, highly informative information resource for people to advise each other on where to find good food without regard for hype, trends, snobbery, price, or conventional wisdom. Before you contribute to sprawling discussions, please take a moment to read through the other replies in the thread. And to consider whether you have something truly compelling to contribute to what's considered by some to be the highest quality repository of restaurant information ever compiled...which all of us, presumably, appreciate and make constant use of (and thus have an interest in protecting from dilution). If you're not helping that cause, please refrain from hitting the "post" button. In short (and this is really it in a nutshell): post only stuff you yourself would want to read. Resist the urge to add your voice simply in order to moisten our fire hydrant! Place comments/complaints/questions about any of this on our Site Talk board, please. Thu Sep 28 03:46:42 -0700 2000 1014496 0 Jim Leff 1 1014459 I think you were looking for trouble and trying to find fault. I'm glad that Babbo does not go over board in dramatizing "special" events. The cake was more then appropriate. I don't like being sang to and don't like waiters singing to the people sitting next to me (as often the case with Birthdays). As for the French, the average one makes better pasta them most restaurants in Little Italy. Wed Sep 27 10:33:58 -0700 2000 1014399 0 Robert 1 1014460 I agree that you were mistreated at Babbo. It doesn't sound like you were expecting freebies per se, as much as for your waiter to acknowledge your special occasion with congratulations and a smile. For the waiter not to send the sommelier over when you asked for him, and for the manager to speak rudely to your party are unacceptable behavior, particularly in a top restaurant. That is just really obnoxious. I was underwhelmed by Babbo (but loved Lupa and Po) when I ate there last year, although I had no service complaints. It shouldn't be such a big deal to avoid shellfish and pork on a menu, even in an Italian restaurant. Yes, Batali is known for using unusual ingredients that don't necessaily sound good on the menu, but that shouldn't preclude you from finding choices that meet your group's dietary restrictions. Sorry you had such a bad time on such an occasion. There are jerks out there and it sucks that you had to deal with a couple of them on your special night. Congratulations! Wed Sep 27 10:37:16 -0700 2000 1014399 0 Aaron Tell 1 1014464 Pam - Obviously there have been many responses on both sides of the fence to your ordeal at Babbo. I don't care to pass judgment on what happened. Being that you seem both tolerant and reasonable, this is my two cents: You two (sans the restricted eating french couple) should go back to Babbo on a "non-special" occassion (call 30 days in advance to avoid getting an infereior table) and try and enjoy the restaurant. No expectations other than a first-rate meal with competent service. I am confident the restaurant will come through. Wed Sep 27 11:29:44 -0700 2000 1014399 0 Dan-o 1 1014472 I thin we have now heard all sides to this story - and all possible interpretations. Perhaps this whole affair should be left to rest for a while. After all, there are other restaurants in NYC to discuss. This is chowhound.com - not Babbo.com! Wed Sep 27 12:13:49 -0700 2000 1014399 0 Zephyr 1 1014506 A general comment: All the people who attacked Pam's post with an "I've always had great service there, so you must be wrong" response seem to be missing the obvious. It IS possible, hard as it may seem, for restaurants to vary from night to night. I've been to Babbo twice, and loved it both times, but that doesn't mean everyone will always have a blissful time there. I've no doubt that when Pam went, she got lousy service. I got the same sort of angry "how dare you attack my favorite restaurant" responses from people when I posted my horrible Bouley Bakery experience. Seems to me that a "Oh, that's a shame. You really ought to give it another try because I've always had a great time" reply is better than the knee-jerk black-and-white "No, you're wrong, it's a good restaurant, it must be your fault" answer. And Pam, congratulations! My one-year wedding anniversary is in 4 days, so I know how you must feel. It only gets better! Thu Sep 28 15:24:44 -0700 2000 1014399 0 Dan 2 1014508 Yes, it's like when people complain of software problems and others indignantly pipe up "I"ve been using that software for three years without a SINGLE PROBLEM". As if that somehow negates the problem report. BUT! It's absolutely essential that we hear both sides of every discussion (otherwise Bouley Bakery and Babbo would appear to be damned, 100% unapproachable eateries, which of course isn't the case). Balance is critical. On the other hand, while our users are too passionate to be immaculately diplomatic every time, we do ask for politeness (we deleted some really trashy postings this afternoon, regrettably not until a few hours after they appeared). And several dozen pile-on redundant "let me express that same exact point once again" postings are more appropriate for Usenet or chat rooms than here (see more at link below). ciao Link: http://www.chowhound.com/topics/show/189880#1014497 Thu Sep 28 15:38:59 -0700 2000 1014506 0 Jim Leff