18945 Fri Mar 01 01:04:57 -0800 2002 26 1 San Francisco Bay Area 0 61741 What's up with the all the starbucks brewpubs in SF? Borders'n Noble StarBiersch? I can appreciate it but it doesn't have to be a trend. Beer is a working class beverage. I want to drink good hand-crafted beer in working class surroundings. Hand-crafted but rough hewn. Honest. All that darkwood paneling & the faux nouveau craftsman style decor really begins to tear at the nerves. First thing that turns me off are the haute appetizers. Crab cakes on a bed of 'special' cole slaw with a creole-wasabi remoulade? Ew. If it's gotta be stingy they could at least serve it on reasonably sized plate or get bigger bar tables. 3 crab cakes wading in 3 acres of (lavender-rubbed) slaw. You don't want to feel like you're going "out" to a fancy restaurant. You don't want to feel you're imposing if you don't order entrees. You want burgers, steak sandwiches, veggie melts, fries or maybe just beer for gods sake and dark beer at that. Gordon Biersch doesn't even have a burger on the menu. You have to ask for it. You have to "know" to ask for it. You have to remember what you really wanted after wading through the ginger fritters, salad pizza, and Franciscan sea-bass compote. What's wrong with a dark beer anyway. Yuppies don't drink porter? If I wanted a light beer I'd order black and tan. What Frederick the Great of Prussia had to say about it all: "It is disgusting to note the increase in the quantity of coffee used by my subjects and the amount of money that goes out of the country in consequence. Everybody is using coffee. If possible this must be prevented. My people must drink beer. His Majesty was brought up on beer, and so were his officers. Many battles have been fought and won by soldiers nourished on beer; and the King does not believe that coffee-drinking soldiers can be depended upon to endure hardships or to beat his enemies in case of the occurrence of another war." and I'm sure he would have had similarly harsh words for crab cakes. Fri Mar 01 01:04:57 -0800 2002 0 BigLizard 1 61743 Try the Hopland Brewery in Hopland. Fri Mar 01 01:41:33 -0800 2002 61741 0 Bung 2 61783 I'd stick to beer at Pacific Coast Brewing in Oakland, I've never enjoyed the food. There are good restaurants of many kinds nearby. Historical note--My understanding is that Triple Rock in Berkeley was the first of the modern brewpubs, and that it required special state legislation to open. Fri Mar 01 18:57:46 -0800 2002 61743 0 Nathan Landau 3 61788 >Historical note--My understanding is that Triple Rock in Berkeley was the first of the modern brewpubs, and that it required special state legislation to open. Not exactly. The Mendocino Brewing Co., in Hopland, was the first, followed within a month or two by Buffalo Bill's in Hayward. This was in 1982 or '83. Triple Rock didn't open until 1985 or '86. It did take special legislation to allow people to brew and serve beer in the same place. That used to be pretty common, but Prohibition (alas!) put an end to it. The bill was sponsored by Tom Hayden, and passed in (I think) 1982. Fri Mar 01 19:25:53 -0800 2002 61783 0 Tom Hilton 1 61747 You seem a bit tense, BigLizard...relax, have a beer. I do agree that the whole micro-brew pub deal is overrated and/or has run its course. However, you might want to try Barclay's--two locations in Oakland, but I'd recommend the original on College Avenue. And at the risk of setting off a new rant, I also recommend Edinburgh Castle on Geary in the City. Good selection of brews, and they'll run down the alley and fetch you fish 'n chips from Chelsea's. Fri Mar 01 08:50:01 -0800 2002 61741 0 Paulie 2 62132 I don't think micros/brewpubs have run their course at all. In fact, there's a resurgence of creative 'Gen Y' micros making wonderful, bold brews. And plenty of old hands like Anderson Valley and Moylan's/Marin still doing the great things they've been doing all along. There are two sources of great beer in the US. One is micros/brewpubs. The other is creative importers like B United and Shelton Broers who bring us all manner of fun, interesting, eccentric beers. I guess you could say the beer scene is tapped out or boring for those who don't make the effort to seek out the good stuff. Same for chow, and I don't hear anyone saying the chow scene has run its course. Wed Mar 06 05:57:08 -0800 2002 61747 0 Jim Dorsch 1 61750 You're right, sometimes one needs to drink an honest brew in an unpretentious atmosphere! The only place that I have enjoyed such an experience in S.F. is the Toranado in the Haight. No food, but great beer and very nice folk. Check it out. Fri Mar 01 10:58:12 -0800 2002 61741 0 Ian 1 61751 Pacific Coast Brewing in Old Oakland, on Washington between 9th and 10th. One of the oldest and most consistent brewpubs in the Bay. English-style, usually five to seven of their own brews on tap, and a couple dozen from other brewers, plus Carlsberg for the children. The food is basic, well-executed for the most part, and the place is surrounded by a brewer's dozen of other food establishments from modest to snotty. Link: http://www.chowhound.com/chowmarket/index.html Fri Mar 01 11:01:20 -0800 2002 61741 0 Shep aka 2 Cheap Hungry Guys 2 61769 "Carlsberg for the children"? The kids must get pretty tipsy... ;) Fri Mar 01 15:42:08 -0800 2002 61751 0 garçon 3 61820 Heh. Akshwoorly, they make their own (non-alchoholic) root beer as well. The Carlsberg is for the, uh, "young at heart". Sat Mar 02 14:15:30 -0800 2002 61769 0 Shep aka 2 Cheap Hungry Guys 1 61757 I'm not wild about Gordon Biersch, but less because of their food (which I thought was pretty good, even if it was a little frou-frou for a brewpub) than because of their beers. They're very well-crafted...and to me, boring as hell. There are lager people and there are ale people, and I'm an ale person. Lagered beers (which is what Gordon Biersch produces) tend to be very polished, with all the rough edges smoothed off. Ales tend to have more distinctive, sharper flavors. The first wave of brewpubs in California (the law was changed to allow them in 1982) were all ale-centered. Some of them are still around: Mendocino Brewing Co. in Hopland; Anderson Valley Brewing Co. in Boonville; Buffalo Bill's in Hayward; and several others that are still around. Together with Anchor (the original American craft brewery) and Sierra Nevada, these places developed a West Coast style of craft beers that had very intense flavors (especially lots of hops, both bittering and floral). (They also reintroduced porter, a style that had been lost to America since Prohibition.) Gordon Biersch and its ilk came along later, when the brewpub phenomenon reached a critical point at which trendiness was possible. I would recommend all of the above, as well as Pacific Coast (previously mentioned), North Coast in Fort Bragg, and--not quite as good as these others, but still solid--Triple Rock in Berkeley. They all have particularly good porters and/or stouts, which is (as you point out) one of the main things missing from the Biersch-style joints. Fri Mar 01 12:20:13 -0800 2002 61741 0 Tom Hilton 2 61771 I agree, the food at Gordon Biersch is pretty good. Which just adds to my irritation... Fri Mar 01 16:20:55 -0800 2002 61757 0 BigLizard 2 61772 Don't forget Magnolia's in the Upper Haight! Fri Mar 01 16:25:11 -0800 2002 61757 0 Matt Walker 2 62077 Mendicino Brewing Co rocks. All the beers there are tasty. My boyfriend and I had a blast throwing back pints and chomping on nachos. Tue Mar 05 11:58:39 -0800 2002 61757 0 Piggly Wiggly 2 62131 In the early days there was the occasional lager brewery, like River City. It's interesting to note that Mendocino is now owned by United Breweries of India. UB bought Mendocino a second brewery in NY, and Mendocino will probably be brewing Kingfisher Lager there soon. Wed Mar 06 05:47:40 -0800 2002 61757 0 Jim Dorsch 2 62177 if i am not mistaken, Triple Rock is part of a regional chain that also runs the Big Time in Seattle. Pretty good ales and stuff (at the big time anyway). Wed Mar 06 19:31:29 -0800 2002 61757 0 patrick 3 62178 You're right. Triple Rock was the first of their empire, I believe. They also used to own the (now defunct) 20 Tank across from Slim's--I really miss that place. Wed Mar 06 19:48:45 -0800 2002 62177 0 Tom Hilton 4 62478 All SF beer drinkers miss 20 Tank. Of course, near the end of its 10 year run it wasn't what it once was, back in the heady (sorry) days with top-notch brewers and an enthusiastic staff. Still, it was a great facility to knock a few back in. 20 Tank embodied the collegiality of a shared adventure that, for me at least, epitomized the brew pub renaisssance. I wasn't alone in anticipating release of the latest batch of Moody's Hi-Top or Nyack barleywine, enjoying cask-conditioned Thursday, when that was a novelty, or reveling in animated beer critique and conversation that segued naturally (after a couple) into other topics, making up in enthusiasm what it lacked in coherence. Beer drinking should be fun, and in the heyday of 20 Tank, it always was. Mon Mar 11 19:10:26 -0800 2002 62178 0 bob bardell 1 61789 Go to Magnolia at 1398 Haight St. The brewmaster Dave really knows his beers (especially stouts, porters, etc.). And they serve good, no-nonsense bar food. Fri Mar 01 19:44:48 -0800 2002 61741 0 Chris G. 1 61812 I would also reccomend Moylans in Novato. It's in a strip mall off 101, and looks sort of cheesy, but they have great ales (I love their IPA) and good honest pub food. Someone metioned Barclay's. I have to give a shout out to the less yuppy, and perhaps more hipster, Ben & Nicks down the street on College ave in Oakland. They have a slew of handles, two nitro taps (one for Guiness, and one that changes regularly - although it has been Boddington's for too long) and a hand pump. The food is decent - their rueben is killer. They are related to Cato's Ale House on Piedmont Ave, which I would reccomend in the same manner. Sat Mar 02 12:32:26 -0800 2002 61741 0 Paul C 2 61826 I forgot about Ben/Nick's, it is pretty good...but I think the food there is better than at the sibling Cato's...esp. since Ben/Nick's can make fries and Cato's can't. Sat Mar 02 15:38:42 -0800 2002 61812 0 Paulie 1 61837 I would imagine the explanation is fairly simple: San Francisco has lost (discarded) the majority of its blue collar industries, so there aren't enough working class folks remaining to support the kind of joint you prefer. So, to propser, brewpubs probably decided to add the kinds of food that might attract a wider clientele than authentic beer alone could. Sat Mar 02 21:38:55 -0800 2002 61741 0 Fine 2 61894 I'd certainly second the analysis about loss of blue collar jobs/population in San Francisco (and indeed many Bay Area locations). The new blue and pink collar jobs in the South Bay seem to be generating taquerias and noodle houses more than bars. Brewpubs have to serve food, by state law. Thanks to Tom Hilton for correcting my brewpub history. That's what comes of believing boosters! Mon Mar 04 00:27:34 -0800 2002 61837 0 Nathan Landau 1 61877 Thanks for all the suggestions. I plan to check out Magnolia asap. I don't get over to the east bay very often but I'll probably be over there in late April. My family will be in town for the boatshow. I'll try to check out at least one of the Oakland places then since I remeber the fare around Jack London square to be limited to upscale chains. Sun Mar 03 18:37:53 -0800 2002 61741 0 BigLizard 2 62085 There's at least one good, non-chain restaurant around Jack London Square: Soizic (Broadway a couple of blocks up from the Square). Tue Mar 05 14:40:48 -0800 2002 61877 0 Ruth Lafler 1 62092 Back in the late 80's early 90's, when I regularly came up to the bay area, there were two things always on our itinerary. #1 was the Anchor Brewery tour. I've been so many times, it became a regular joke when we showed up. They would have to kick us out of the tasting room. #2 Toronado. No place in the bay area (at least at that time) had the level of beer sophistication coupled with the ambiance of dive bar. They use to have belgin ale and seasonal ale beer fests. Ah, the good ole days! The Northern Cal places previously mentioned (also Humbolt Brewery) make great ale and seem to meet the criteria BigLizard is seeking. I have never been to Gordon Biersch--but now it is certain. Cheers! Tue Mar 05 16:51:31 -0800 2002 61741 0 Grog- LA,CA 2 62124 To be clear (and fair). My criticism was intended to be tongue and cheek. The food at Gordon-Biersch is consistently high quality. I would even go so far as to recommend it. My objection was to the upscale trendy atmosphere and the somewhat boring beer selection. Tom Hilton's post critiques the beer accurately. I yearn for the greater variety of brews from the more humble brew pubs I grew up with in Oregon. I do have a personal vendetta against crab cakes. A waste of a good crab IMHO or a way to make canned crab palatable. Wed Mar 06 00:57:14 -0800 2002 62092 0 BigLizard