189094 Tue Jan 04 14:17:54 -0800 2000 27 18 Manhattan 0 1009768 Just a note... I have decided that I want learn a lot about cheese. My fiance bought me Steve Jenkin's Cheese Primer for Christmas so I am on my way. I have a read a lot and I am learning a ton. I went to Murray's cheese shop in the Village yesterday to check it out and buy some stuff I read about that I found interesting. It was the middle afternoon. I do not speak french and had trouble pronouncing the names of the cheeses although I tried. The guy behind the counter was intimidating and rude. I normally don't feel intimidated. I felt very uncomfortable and rushed. He even rolled his eyes when I decided to continue to browse and then again when I mispronounced a name. I went to Fairway a few weeks ago with even less knowledge because I hadn't received the book yet. The person behind the counter took a lot of time allowing me to browswe, taste and ask questions. I did not feel the least bit intimidated by my lack of knowledge or experience . And at that time I didn't have the primer yet. If anything I felt encouraged to pursue my cheesehounding. If I can help it I won't be back to Murray's. I know they are known for their gentle counterpeople, but I felt none of that. Happy 2000!!! Jo Tue Jan 04 14:17:54 -0800 2000 0 Jo 1 1009771 Murray's clerks are woefully underpaid & have wildly unpredictable demeanors. Some of them are really nice. They know their products well. FWIW, I've personally overheard Steve Jenkins (brains behind Fairway's admittedly great cheese dept.) viciously upbraiding Fairway's cheese counter staff while on the sales floor. The clerks themselves are unfailingly nice, although sometimes uninformed. While I frequently don't agree with Ed Levy (New York Eats), his favorite, Ideal Cheese on 61st and 2nd(?) has a smaller number of impeccable (absolutely tops for freshness & quality -- I absolutely swooned over a perfect Gorgonzola dolce I got there once, and a 3-year-old Gouda) French cheeses and other classics, at prices comparable or slightly less than Fairway's. Owner there is kinda stuck-up -- most of his clientele are UES types -- but he's usually behind the counter himself. I asked about his limited selection (any domestic artisanals?) and he said that he wouldn't carry anything that didn't turn over enough to guarantee they'd be fresh, and that of course one shouldn't pay $22/lb for a domestic when you could always get a comparable import for $15. He's biased toward Europeans though. Fairway will always be glad to take your $22 -- but you can stock up on that $9/lb Reggiano at the same time. They even have kosher (i.e. vegetarian rennet) Reggiano! And, although you didn't ask, the last time I checked (which was admittedly a while ago), ALL the cheese at Balducci's was past prime. But maybe they've improved recently. Tue Jan 04 15:25:19 -0800 2000 1009768 0 MU 2 1009775 Dollars to doughnuts Murray's is the place to purchase your cheese. The selection is vast, the turnover rapid, and the help although a bit quirky, quite knowledgable. Balducci's cheese is over the hill, Dean & DeLuca's isn't much better (and more expensive), Fairway's too far uptown for a Brooklyn boy like me. And when I'm done at Murray's I walk across the street to Faicco's for excellent pork products. Definitely give Murray's another shot... And let me know what you think... Tue Jan 04 16:07:12 -0800 2000 1009771 0 D Silverman 3 1009777 I agree with D. and J. I've always had a stellar time shopping at Murrays: helpful staff, great selection (though they don't carry my favorite goat cheese, Dorothea from Holland - but like they say in "Some Like It Hot", nobody's perfect) and a definite willingness to let you try, taste and sample til you're satisfied. I was there on Thursday. The place was packed with people. Though maybe it was because I looked like nothing made me happier than a hookah of Cashel Blue, I got lots of tastes and advice, and they took the time to make sure I was happy. Please give them another chance. That area IS the holy trinity to me: Murrays, Zitos and Faiccos on one block! Tue Jan 04 16:28:41 -0800 2000 1009775 0 Liza 1 1009774 I shop at Murray's maybe three times a week (since I moved to NY, I've become positively cheesivorous), and I can't say enough good things about the place. The cheese is always in impeccable condition, and they'll let you taste three wheels of Stilton to see which one is the ripest. They understand when you just dart in for a pound of Grafton cheddar, but almost glow when you're willing to take a chance on one of the new farmhouse Portuguese or raw-milk French cheeses they've just gotten in. They stock killer olives, and breads from all the right bakeries. And most of the counterguys seem as enthralled by cool cheese that comes in as record store clerks are about the newest unlistenable white-label ambient 12''. Give 'em another chance, preferably when they're not too busy. Tue Jan 04 15:54:22 -0800 2000 1009768 0 j gold 1 1009776 Since I don't shop at Murray's, I really can't speak to your problem specifically (I happen to do most of my cheese shopping at Agata & Valentina - where the staff both knows their stuff and is pleasant at the same time...what a concept!). However, I will say that as consumers who are paying (and oftentimes paying top dollar) for a product AND service, shouldn't we expect more from the service side. I've often given a restaurant a second chance when the food might not have met my expectations, but I won't go back to a place if I feel I was treated poorly by the staff - who needs it? There are plenty of places to shop and dine in this city, some that'll even be HAPPY to take your money (and I do believe in all seriousness that the attitude of staff comes from the top down, which is why the staff at Fairway is so nice)! Tue Jan 04 16:25:30 -0800 2000 1009768 0 mitchw 2 1009922 Well, I have never been to Murray's, but I had a delightful experience at Dean and Deluca the week before New Years. The cheese there is undoubtedly pricey, but the selection is incredible. We purchased 16 different cheeses, and had at least 30 minutes of discussion with the knowledgeable woman behind the counter, who offered generous tastings and suggestions. Happy eating! -gillian Tue Jan 18 11:43:27 -0800 2000 1009776 0 gillian 1 1009779 I lived in Britain for a while in the early '90s and regularly found that unpasteurized cheeses were superior to their pasteurized counterparts. The cheese stall in my local outdoor market carried unpasteurized Brie that the owner drove over in his station wagon from France that kicked ass -- totally amazing oozy ripe goodness that I've never, repeat never, tasted in this country. More recently I smuggled in some Stilton from Neal's Yard that blew away my dinner guests. I suspect that some American fromagiers carry unpasteurized cheese without admitting it. So far as I can tell, for many cheeses, this is the key to truly ripe and mindblowing flavors and textures -- particularly with blue cheeses, bries and brie-like cheeses such as Explorateur and Reblochon etc. I'll go a little further and suggest that a place that I personally hate to shop at, that is Dean & Deluca, actually stocks more non-pasteurized cheeses than any of their competitors. I can't prove this, and I'd much rather give my money to Murray's, Fairway, or Formaggio Kitchen in Cambridge MA., but I suspect it is the truth. Any 411 about places supplying (illegally in this country) non-pasteurized cheese would be much appreciated. Best, Patrick Wed Jan 05 02:06:00 -0800 2000 1009768 0 Patrick A. 2 1009781 Patrick: It's totally legal to sell unpasteurized domestic cheeses in this country, as long as they are aged for the specified period of time before sale (I think it's 120 days, but someone holler if they have better info on this). So stay with domestics and you're completely legit. I'm not sure about the import laws on this, but I assume they are much stricter. Wed Jan 05 10:15:47 -0800 2000 1009779 0 MU 2 1009782 I think you'll find that American cheesemakers obey FDA rules pretty scrupulously. Those who don't get closed down or heavily fined, and make trouble for the rest of the artisanal cheese community. The debate over whether pasteurization makes any difference to the taste of cheese is a lively one; I don't think there is any sound basis yet to accept either side. In my experience, cheesemakers in countries where young unpasteurized cheeses are allowed argue vehemently that pastuerization ruins the flavor, while cheesemakers in America argue just as strongly that it doesn't make a whit of difference. I've certainly had American pasteurized cheeses that are every bit as flavorful and alive as anything I had in France. Wed Jan 05 10:49:28 -0800 2000 1009779 0 Josh Mittleman 3 1009784 Hi Josh, Interesting points, but I'm not convinced. Many cheeses made in France as elsewhere in Europe are pasteurized -- in fact, most of them are. I've had non-pasteurized Brie next to pasteurized Brie and the difference in flavor was overwhelming. This might not be true for all types of cheeses or all makers, but clearly pasteurization changes the flavor. I think it's sad that Americans aren't given the opportunity to decide for themselves. And the spectacle of artisanal cheesemakers having to police each other in order to fend off interference by a government agency is depressing in the extreme. Patrick Wed Jan 05 11:55:40 -0800 2000 1009782 0 Patrick A. 4 1009802 It is possible to make lousy cheese with pasteurized milk. But it is also possible to make exceptionally good cheese with pasteurized milk. The difference may be between a quick, cheap pasteurized method and a slower, more expensive method. Or it may be that pasteurization is a red herring and that the real differences lie in other parts of the process. Thu Jan 06 11:49:14 -0800 2000 1009784 0 Josh Mittleman 5 1010037 I enjoy everyone's feedback. I'm wondering if there are any dangers associated with non pasteurizing? Thu May 31 14:40:36 -0700 2001 1009802 0 Cristina 6 1010038 Under less-than-ideal conditions, unpasteurized milk can contain all kinds of pathogenic bacteria. Milk which is going to be pasteurized can have a lot more of these bacteria pre-processing, because most of them are going to be killed in the processing. So milk intended to be sold as unpasteurized must be produced under squeaky-clean, highly regulated conditions in order to be safe. Thu May 31 15:57:26 -0700 2001 1010037 0 ironmom 7 1010039 And now that I've read the title to your post again (thought I was posting to a raw milk thread), I'll add that listeriosis causes deaths in France every year, which is why they're trying to encourage pasteurizing of milk for cheesemaking. Thu May 31 16:02:57 -0700 2001 1010038 0 ironmom 8 1010040 The trouble is, listeria is strongly associated with soft, mold-ripened or blue cheeses that are made from EITHER pasteurized or unpasteurized milk. That's where the attention should be placed, rather than attempting to ban all unpasteurized cheeses. Pasteurization is not a guarantee against listeria. Public health dollars would be better spent educating and issuing health warnings to populations at risk - the elderly, pregnant women, immune-impaired, etc. - rather than limiting the choices available to the rest of us. Thu May 31 20:54:48 -0700 2001 1010039 0 Melanie Wong 9 1010041 In general public health dollars should be spent cleaning up the milk supply at the producer level to improve the safety of the food supply. A little sanitation goes a long way. I agree entirely that the government is going whacko over this matter, considering the high levels of risk they allow in other foodstuffs. Fri Jun 01 07:37:27 -0700 2001 1010040 0 ironmom 2 1009783 Try fromage.com (or it may be fromages.com). I think you can purchase unpasturized cheese from this European company for personal use. Wed Jan 05 11:54:37 -0800 2000 1009779 0 Susan L. 3 1009785 Thanks for the link -- the site looks interesting. The section linked below discusses the pros and cons of raw versus pasteurized milk in cheesemaking. They clearly come out in favor of non-pasteurization, but this may be the French view. (This whole subthread should probably be shifted over to General Topics!) best, Patrick Link: http://www.fromages.com/usa/rawmilk.htm Wed Jan 05 12:04:11 -0800 2000 1009783 0 Patrick A. 4 1009801 The article on fromages.com is pure propaganda. It's also wrong: All Egg Farm Dairy cheeses are pasteurized (at a low heat for a long period of time), and they are hardly "neutral to mild, without much character." Milk pasteurized quickly at a high heat suffers more from processing. Most European "raw-milk" cheeses are also made from heated milk, by the way: It's just heated a little bit less. Thu Jan 06 11:47:12 -0800 2000 1009785 0 Josh Mittleman 2 1009787 Not to beat a dead horse, but Murray's not only carries a wide selection of raw-milk cheeses, but has signs posted around the store listing the raw-milk cheeses that happen to be in stock at any given time--including many cheeses from the great Neal's Yard. Wed Jan 05 12:17:29 -0800 2000 1009779 0 j gold 2 1009789 I don't have the Cheese Primer at hand, but I recall reading there that raw milk cheese imported into the US must be of a certain age, hence no really fresh raw milk cheeses. Now, I can't recall if the rule applies to domestic cheeses. Anyone have the Cheese Primer lying around near the computer? Wed Jan 05 16:09:02 -0800 2000 1009779 0 Jim Dorsch 3 1009792 I used to work behind a cheese counter in a past life, so I'm pretty sure the required age for raw milk cheese is the same for everything sold in the US -- all raw milk cheeses in the US are labeled with "Aged at least [uh, consult a cheese label here] days". I'm not sure if this is a state-by-state law or federal. The wide availability of many non-pasteurized imports implies that they're legal as long as they meet similar age standards. However, the rules for international stuff might be changing... I'm not sure when the information was posted (before or after WTF conference), but the American Cheese Society is concerned about a GLOBAL BAN on raw milk cheese. Information is available on this and lots of other cheesy things via the link below. Link: http://www.cheesesociety.org/ Wed Jan 05 16:23:53 -0800 2000 1009789 0 MU 3 1009793 Okay, I will try Murray's again. Hopefully it won't be quite as intimidating so I can taste, browse and learn, oh and of course buy. For me thats part of the fun. I do happen to have the primer next to me...the USFDA forbids the importation of raw-milk/unpasteurized cheeses aged less than 60 days. Jo Wed Jan 05 16:24:48 -0800 2000 1009789 0 Jo 2 1009848 fwiw, the Colton-Basset Stilton from Neal's Yard is pasteurized. Still a very fine cheese. No need to feel you're smuggling when bringing in unpasteurized cheese (with less 60 days age or otherwise) from abroad. As long as the quantities appear to be for personal use and not imported for commercial sale, customs doesn't care. Farmhouse cheeses from Neal's Yard are readily available from several purveyors in the SF Bay Area (where I live), don't know where to send you in NY. Tue Jan 11 21:19:09 -0800 2000 1009779 0 melanie 3 1009852 Just chiming in to say that Melanie knows an awful lot about food (and even more about wine). Glad to have you posting, Melanie! Wed Jan 12 01:29:57 -0800 2000 1009848 0 Jim Leff 2 1010044 I am the fromager at Artisanal and am proud to sell the cheeses the FDA deems illegal. The idea is somewhat clowded by the desire to export the cheeses and the risk that the FDA will confiscate the cheeses. The more I am a part of the issue the more I realize it is not so much a scientific position, but rather a political position. The 'industry' of cheese in the US is very scared of the possibility of food borne illness, regardless of how few incidences there are. Raw milk cheeses are a superior quality and a much better translation of terroir. The act of pasteurizing standardizes flavors and creates a homogeneity of taste that comes from packaged bacteria. The act of ripening is also greatly impeded, the evolution of ripening is based on subtlties and diversity in components breaking down. There are those who bring raw milk cheeses in based on the fact that the FDA only checks a small percentage of the product that comes in through customs. There are other factors such as ignorance of whether the cheese are actually raw or pasteurized. A general rule of thumb with French cheese is that if it doesn't say 'au lait cru' it isn't raw. The importers who bring these cheeses in risk their license but as long as the market exists, it's much better cheese. The big arguement I have with the law is that we are regulating milk rather than regulating the process of cheesemaking. Like outlawing raw meat due to an e.coli outbreak. Thanks Peter Kindel Wed Jan 30 15:42:14 -0800 2002 1009779 0 Peter Kindel 3 1010045 Peter-- Thanks for providing a textbook example of how we encourage "insiders" to post. You disclosed who you were, there wasn't a shred of hype or PR-speak, and you talked to us straight, as a fellow hound. Also, very very interesting info. Thanks very much; I hope you'll return and participate in our discussion in the future. ciao Wed Jan 30 17:49:07 -0800 2002 1010044 0 Jim Leff