18213 Wed Jan 02 13:21:33 -0800 2002 60 1 San Francisco Bay Area 0 56659 I love the garlicky roast crab and garlic noodles found at a couple of Euro/Vietnamese restaurants in SF. I have tried, to no avail, to recreate the "secret" sauce. I've tried combining garlic, butter, anchovies, sesame oil, nuoc nam, and parmesan cheese (for the noodles only), at home, but the flavor still eludes me. Has anyone had better luck at this? Would love to hear about other possible combos. Wed Jan 02 13:21:33 -0800 2002 0 La Bouche 1 56671 There is no Euro/Vietnamese food. Either Euro foods or Vietnamese foods. The same thing goes for Euro/American. Either American or Euro foods. Vietnamese like to use the words 'French-Vietnamese' on their restaurant names just for marketing purposes only. People tend to use fancy names to attract customers. You can tell from vietnamese foods that there's nothing french about it. Have you ever noticed french words on American perfume bottles? Why french words, you asked? They sound fancy and attract customers, not because the water used in the bottle of 'Calvin Klein' is imported from French. 'Beef noodle soup' or 'Pho' is vietnamese food. It's a national dish. Can you order 'Pho' in a real French restaurant. Yet vietnamese restaurants still like to call themselves 'french-vietnamese' restaurant. In Vietnam, you never heard of a 'french-vietnamese' restaurant. In the US, i think practically a lot of vietnamese restaurants call themselves 'french-vietnamese.' Why? To attract non-vietnamese customers. So next time, don't mention the word 'french-vietnamese' or vietnamese will surely laugh at you. Wed Jan 02 15:52:04 -0800 2002 56659 0 chowguy 2 56673 And, what's your explanation of French roast coffee that's ubiquitous in Vietnamese cafes? Years of French colonialization had no effect on Vietnamese cuisine? Wed Jan 02 16:01:05 -0800 2002 56671 0 Melanie Wong 3 56676 This thread reminds me of a dish that I had at a Vietnamese place in Singapore years ago. It was a rich tomato-based beef stew - definitely a lot of French in it. Anyone seen a good version of that in SF? Wed Jan 02 16:18:05 -0800 2002 56673 0 Limster 4 56688 Maybe you're thinking of bún bò Huê, Hue-style beef soup. It is very tomatoey yet also spicy, which is very typical. (Chili sauce prevails where ketchup fears to tread.) The next part isn't a direct reply to you, but rather to the thread (my apologies in advance): As far as the French Vietnamese thing goes, banh mi are called French sandwiches by every Vietnamese eatery I've ever seen that bothered to translate the name. (Bánh mì are mini-baguettes with roast pork or other meat, pickled vegetables - dd`ô chua, and a spread on them that is definitely garlicky but I'm not sure what else.) French-Vietnamese in the US usually means that it serves things besides the usual phô, bún, cha giò (imperial rolls) and com tam (broken rice... absolutely delicious). A Vietnamese friend of mine corrected me one day because I assumed that all Vietnamese food was pho or bún or com tam, and that the other Vietnamese food I saw (roast garlic crab, crab and asparagus soup, garlic noodles) was Frenchified and thus a product of California's mania for fusion cuisine. Viet Nam, like most places in the world, has seen many influences (including some odd ones - the national beer, bia ho*i, was introduced to the Vietnamese by the Czechs). It works both ways, by that way - dá chanh (Vietnamese fresh limeade) is very popular in the South of France. Wed Jan 02 17:33:02 -0800 2002 56676 0 PRSMDave 5 56729 I know that in certain (non-Chinese) Asian cuisines, there is a name for the version of the local cuisine prepared by ethnic Chinese, who, of course, had a presence in most countries in the Orient. If memory serves me well, the Chinese interpretation of Malaysian cuisine is called "Nonya," for one example. Do any of you know if that's true for Vietnamese? As for this thread, the poster's motives seem a bit non-culinary, but it's an interesting subject to ponder, vitriol aside. I no longer recall and am too lazy to look it up, but it seems very likely that, just as the ingredients and techniques of neighboring (if not always neighborly) nations influenced modern Vietnamese cooking, so must the longtime presence of the French. Surely there must have been restaurants during the French colonization that were "pure" Vietnamese, "pure" French, and hybrids of each, just as there are dishes almost universally considered Indian that were actually English Colonial concoctions. Thu Jan 03 07:13:55 -0800 2002 56688 0 Fine 6 56732 I know little about either French or Vietnamese food, but I do know something about how culture, and food is certainly a part of culture, evolves. Culture is dynamic and accumulative. Yes, one can say that a piece of music, a work of art, or a dish of food is "traditional" to one culture in a particular period of time, but it is important to recognize that whatever object of culture one is considering is a product of all the influences, both internal and external, operating on that culture at that time, and that that specific time no longer exists. As a culture moves through time it collects influences. Early in human history, when cultures were relatively isolated from each other, this happened at a very slow pace. As human exploration of foreign areas increased the exchange of cultural influences increased as well. Colonization, often seen as the imposition of one culture on another, actually caused massive intermixing of cultures. Emigration and immigration change the cultures involved. As modes of transportation sped up, so did the exchange of cultural ideas. Now that information can be exchanged almost instantaneously our ideas of distinct cultures will have to change. In short, what most of us think of the culture of France, Vietnam, El Salvador, or the South Side of Chicago are artifacts of a moment in time now existing only in our collective memories. Mayonnaise once was French. Now it is universal and perhaps better for it. The boh of Vietnam (and is it the same all over Vietnam?) and the boh of New York cooked by a Vietnamese immigrant are different. They have to be. One can say that the NY boh is Vietnamese in origin, but it neither of Vietnam nor of New York. It is of a magical place called Vietnam/New York that exists in the space between the person cooking the dish and the one eating it. There is no such thing as "authenticity" for something as dynamic as cuisine. There are only approximations and memories. Thu Jan 03 10:10:03 -0800 2002 56729 0 Deven Black 7 56739 Well said! I still think French-Vietnamese restaurants advertise themselves as such in order to distinguish themselves from, say, pho shops. They could call themselves Imperial Vietnamese and it would mean the same thing, yummy dishes from Da Nang and Hue. The food's the thing, you see, and it doesn't matter to me if it's called French Vietnamese or Antarctic Canadian food. Thu Jan 03 12:37:01 -0800 2002 56732 0 PRSMDave 8 56766 The food doesn't matter but how you call it does matter. If McDonald's serve 'thai salads' with soysauce, would you call it Thai-Chinese-American McDonald's. Of course not. See, it does matter. How do you explain french words on most American perfume bottles. For marketing purposes of course. The same thing goes for Vnese restaurants. It does not separate them from 'Pho' shops. Again this is a big misconception from the non-vnese. Just because you want to separate yourself from 'Pho' shops, doesn't mean you should call it 'french-vnese.' Would you call a hamburger joint, for example, french-american hamburger restaurant, to distinguish yourself from Burger King? I don't think so. You never call Malay-singaporean-thai-american-italian-chinese restaurant. Why call french-vnese restaurant? Because the majority of non-vnese don't know this and vnese restaurants know how to capitalize on this misconception by advertising themselves as 'french-vnese' to attract non-vnese customers. Vnese customers already know that it's b.s. when you call yourself 'french-vnese' restaurant. Culture has nothing to do with the foods. French also influence american culture. We use mayo, side-walk cafe, so and so, but do american restaurants ever call themselves french-american restaurant? I don't think so. Then why call french-vnese restaurant? Thu Jan 03 14:23:15 -0800 2002 56739 0 chowguy 9 56772 Chowguy, you're repeating yourself, talking in circles and not adding any more weight to your argument. Time to cool off and return to talking about chow instead of semantics. You might find this recent article (linked below) which quote Big Dog Jim Leff on the phenonomenon of mixed cultural restaurants, e.g., Indian-Chinese. This is America, anything is possible. Link: http://www.nationalpost.com/artslife/story.html?f=/stories/20020103/1021101.html Thu Jan 03 14:46:21 -0800 2002 56766 0 Melanie Wong 10 56843 This has certainly been a spirited discussion which I have enjoyed following, even though some of it regressed a bit. For those of you who have offered suggestions, I thank you very much. I have taken note of those suggestions and will work on the "secret sauce" again. Check back in two weeks, and I will let everyone know what I came up with. Fri Jan 04 12:01:15 -0800 2002 56772 0 La Bouche 10 56845 This has been an interesting debate, or *would be* if we'd actually gotten anywhere. I've gotten in the "fusion food" debate many times with all sorts of people. Sometimes it's interesting to search for the root of a dish, a cuisine or sub-cuisine. I understand chowguy's frustration -- there are restaurants out there that are jumping on a marketing bandwagon. Aux Delices on Polk claims to be a French-Vietnamese restaurant, but the menu doesn't look all that different from a many Vietnamese restaurants that don't claim French influence. And I've seen several Thai restaurants lately that proclaim "Thai and Fusion" but again there's not much obvious "fusion" on the menu ... At least that I'm aware of! How would I know? If I only had the time to research all this! To break it down, every food is a fusion. Tofu, it is commonly believed, came from China. So when I have tofu in a Thai or Vietnamese or Japanese or California Hippy restaurant, am I to call it "Chinese-fusion," blah blah? This is silly. So are claims I've heard that "oh San Francisco invented fusion cuisine" or "Fog City Diner invented fusion cuisine" -- (HA!! Oh, Michael Bauer, we do love you). Consider: Singapore. Or countless other international cities. They've been doing bona-fide East/West fusion before San Francisco was born. Either a product of friendly cultural interaction or colonial oppresion or just a happy accident, fusion food is as old as food itself. I think this is an interesting debate, entirely appropriate for San Francisco, but this is certainly no place to get huffy and attack fellow hounds' intellect. As for the crab noodles, I made some last night. We tried some different cheeses and settled on a hard Spanish goat cheese over the usual parmesan. We had a California wine, and some Chilean asparagus. We talked about how good it was but it could have used some Thai fish sauce. And then we sprinkled some Basque pepper on it and the dish just shined! (Igo, available at Yum Food Shop on Market, brought to us by the man from Pastis and Fringale). Here's some fun 'fusion' places in SF: Link: http://www.bayinsider.com/restaurants/food/reviews/toppicks_sf_unique.html Fri Jan 04 12:31:37 -0800 2002 56772 0 edwardpark 7 56758 well said, thank you Thu Jan 03 13:44:48 -0800 2002 56732 0 Rochelle 7 56762 Thank you, that was so elegantly written. Your voice of reason stopped my head spinning from that tangled thread! Thu Jan 03 13:59:25 -0800 2002 56732 0 Jackie Avery 6 56777 About the Nonya - it's a cuisine that was born when the Chinese and Malays intermarried in S E Asia and starting using dishes and sauces from each other. Thu Jan 03 14:53:33 -0800 2002 56729 0 Limster 4 56720 so is indian, singaporean, laotian, thai? They all have beef-stews. Would you call an indian restaurant french-indian just because they serve beef stew? would you call a real french restaurant indian-french if they serve the ingredients that the indians use? Thu Jan 03 00:08:36 -0800 2002 56676 0 asdff 4 4474452 NO she is not talking about Bun Bo Hue she is talking about. Bo Kho...The best bo kho (Beef Stew) in San Francisco is at a coffee shop in the tenderloin. It's call Hoang Dat on Geary street. Between Larking and Polk. They serve it with a piece of bread. Wed Mar 04 17:55:41 -0800 2009 56676 271801 blackrosedragon 3 56683 Or that they serve baguettes in Vietnam. Wed Jan 02 17:08:01 -0800 2002 56673 0 Leslie Brenner 4 56689 Or Vietnamese sandwiches for that matter. Wed Jan 02 17:34:32 -0800 2002 56683 0 stett holbrook 5 56712 Yes, not to forget about that Pate in Vietnamese sandwich? Wed Jan 02 23:26:51 -0800 2002 56689 0 HLing 6 56714 and, let's not hold the mayo! (g) Wed Jan 02 23:46:37 -0800 2002 56712 0 Melanie Wong 7 56718 just because pate is used in their sandwich, that doesn't make it french. so what do you call if they also use mayo, soysauce, pate in their sandwich? would that make american-french-chinese sandwich? I don't think so. I'm sure many non-french restaurants use pate. So does that make them french restaurant? Thu Jan 03 00:00:20 -0800 2002 56714 0 kjdfk 8 56722 If you don't know that mayonnaise is a French sauce, your opinions on this topic aren't going to hold much weight. Paté in a sandwich may not make it French. At the same time, how could you say that it's NOT French if it's made from ingredients of French origin? Since English does not appear to be your native language, perhaps you would make a better argument by telling us what you consider authentically Vietnamese rather than trying to prove what is NOT French. It's always harder and nearly impossible to prove what something is NOT. Thu Jan 03 00:19:59 -0800 2002 56718 0 Melanie Wong 9 56725 So if mayo is used in sandwiches in american delis. would you call them french sandwiches? What ingredient in a vietnamese sandwich is of french origin? So if we use the ingredients of french origin, does that make it french? I don't think so. Vietnamese use soy sauce, imploy the technique that the chinese use in making the soy sauce, and use basically the same ingredients that the chinese use, so next time you eat at a vietnamese restaurant which use soy sauce, does that make it a chinese-vietnamese restaurant? I don't think so. American use the techniques that the french use in making perfumes. If Calvin Klein starts using french water (french ingredient, remember?) to make his perfumes, does that make his perfumes french-american, i don't think so. Sorry but poor uninformed opinions do not persuade me. just because we use french's techniques and ingredients, that doesn't make it french? Let's say If McDonald's starts using soy sauce in their BigMac, you wouldn't call it a chinese hamburger, would you? sorry but i don't find your reasons good enough. Thu Jan 03 01:16:26 -0800 2002 56722 0 chowguy 10 56791 Chow, it sounds like you have an issue not with the opinions of the "uninformed, uneducated" folks on this board, but with the sometime-French occupation of Viet Nam. THAT is why we are all saying that certain restaurants are "French-Vietnamese". No one argues that Pho 85 is Vietnamese, with little French influence. But you try to tell me that Le Colonial is not French influenced Vietnamese cuisine, and I will call YOU uninformed. Really, though, I can't expect you to know what the food at Le Colonial is like, because you have probably never eaten there, because they have a FRENCH name. Thu Jan 03 16:50:52 -0800 2002 56725 0 Fatemeh 11 56815 what did you eat at the Le Colonial that you consider french influence? I ate there once and at so many other vnese restaurants with french names, their foods are 100% vnese. Which dish did you eat that you would consider french influence? French/Italian/English also influence american. would you consider american restaurant as french-italian-english influenced american cuisine? I don't think so. Would you call your restaurant as french-italian-english restaurant? I don't think so. Then why would you consider Le Colonial as french-vnese restaurant? I want you to think who is the uneducated and uninformed here? These are the type of questions that separate the smart from the stupid customers. Thu Jan 03 21:19:55 -0800 2002 56791 0 chowguy 12 56821 I will not justify your rude remarks except to say this - you keep saying the same thing, which has been countered repeatedly. Your country endured a long French occupation. Stop lambasting the people of this board because you have a problem with history. Don't bother to post a response. I'm not reading this far down again. Thu Jan 03 21:57:41 -0800 2002 56815 0 Fatemeh 13 56822 This discussion has gone on far too long. It's going no where, and feelings are getting bruised. Chowhound is about food and having fun. This is NOT fun. Let's agree to disagree and get back to the chow. Thu Jan 03 22:07:51 -0800 2002 56821 0 The Chowhound Team 6 56717 So if i used a dash of soy sauce (not that i do) in a BigMac, would you call it chinese food? VIetnamese use pate in their sandwich, would you call it french food? Wed Jan 02 23:56:52 -0800 2002 56712 0 kdjfk 5 56716 Vietnamese use the techniques that french use, along with so many american chefs who were trained in Cordon Blue. You wouldn't call american chefs who were trained in Cordon Blue 'french chefs', would you? Wed Jan 02 23:53:03 -0800 2002 56689 0 kjkd 4 56715 so are baguettes in Safeway or Albertsons. Are they french? Wed Jan 02 23:50:43 -0800 2002 56683 0 dkjfk 3 56709 Thats Right! and most of the time it is the lovely golden french roast with chicory. Chicory in coffee was first enjoyed in Sicily. Sounds Euro to me! Wed Jan 02 22:01:03 -0800 2002 56673 0 Jackie Avery 2 56687 suppose you're going to tell us that parmesan cheese comes from Asia too? whatever. Wed Jan 02 17:24:18 -0800 2002 56671 0 edwardpark 2 56695 We can excuse your ignorance by assuming that you are too young to remember one of San Francisco's best French restaurants was Vietnamese...long before the so-called "war". I can't recall the name but it was in either North Beach or Polk Gulch, and the menu was decidedly French. I recall having Duck l'Orange. Maybe some old-timers can remember the name. Pho was relatively unheard of in those days. Wed Jan 02 19:16:50 -0800 2002 56671 0 Jim H. 3 56719 That was real French restaurant. just happened to be owned by vietnamese and cooked by vietnamese. That was not a vietnamese restaurant, but real french. Many american chefs have french restaurants in SF. They were trained and cooked real french foods and they named their restaurants in french. Thu Jan 03 00:04:54 -0800 2002 56695 0 asdf 2 56721 vnese restaurants use pate, beef-stew, baguette but that doesn't make them french-vnese restaurant. If McDonald's introduces 'Thai Salads' along with other salads they already have, would you call them Thai-American McDonald's, I don't think so. Just because vnese restaurant use pate, beef-stew, baguette, that doesn't make them french-vietnamese restaurant. Unfortunately many do to attract the uneducated customers. Thu Jan 03 00:17:02 -0800 2002 56671 0 chowguy 2 56740 though this argument seems kind of silly, i think that denying the influence of the french on vietnamese food is somewhat inane (as subsequent posters keep piling on the evidence of french ingredients here and there) i do agree, however, with chowguys disinclination about the labeling - of "french-vietnamese food". It seems to me that all vietnamese places and food bear the mark of french colonial rule and so using the french in the labeling is somewhat redundant "vietnamese" alone would do just fine. after all, you do not label food as "portuguese goan" or as "malay-indian-chinese-singaporean" Also, in an earlier discussion of the pronunciation of pho someone mentioned that the name and pronunciation may have derived from pot-au-feu. Does anyone know if this is true? Thu Jan 03 12:37:46 -0800 2002 56671 0 zim 3 56763 Just because you use the same ingredients the french use, that doesn't mean you can call yourself french-so-and-so. This is why in Viet Nam, you never hear the word 'french-vnese.' because the vnese know it's b.s. Only in the US that vnese restaurant like to call themselves 'french-vnese' to attract the uneducated and uninformed customers. Vnese know too well that there is no such thing as 'french-vnese.' After all, french is a language of love. At lease that's what everyone thinks. That's why vnese restaurants usually use the word 'french' to attract non-vnese customers. .and Pho is a vietnamese word. That's not how it's written either. It's supposed to be written with accents. Thu Jan 03 14:04:58 -0800 2002 56740 0 chowguy 3 56767 While I agree that your post makes sense, as a Singaporean, I do make distinctions between Malay, Indian and Chinese styled food in Singapore (and so do pretty much all Singaporeans for that matter). They've managed to steal a few accents from each other, but each cuisine still retains a certain unique identity. Put Malay and Chinese cooking together and you get Nonya food, cooking by straits chinese/malays - that's the only cuisine within the region with pork curry - no one else makes this dish. These "labels" are not arbitary, and come with cultural and historical roots. Also, on a more practical level, that's also how Singaporeans identify different cuisines. In Singapore, when my buddy tells me we're going to a Malay place, I know what we're getting - probably rice and a variety of curry dishes, chilli is going to fairly prominent. Ditto when they say Teochew Chinese - we start looking for dishes like stuffed sea cucumber, fried prawn balls and braised goose. At hawker centers, it's clear that yong tau foo (variety of stuffed tofu) is Hakka Chinese, while noodle dishes like mee siam and mee rebus are Malay. That distinction is clearly made in Singapore by Singaporeans. The criteria we use is historical and by sheer numbers - char kway teow is by and large made by Chinese, roti prata by indians. Chicken rice is made by the Hainanese Chinese and Malays. Main ingredients aren't that different. But I'll bet that most people could tell them apart in a blind tasting. Same goes for a Indian mee goreng vs. a Malay one. Thu Jan 03 14:26:31 -0800 2002 56740 0 Limster 4 56779 limster, as i wrote it, i knew the singaporean analogy was weak(I confess to looking for a triple hyphenated example to strenghten my point, and i instead diluted it). I guess the correct interpretation is it ask if the including the word in the label adds distinctive information about the food available (as it would in singaporean terms). Thanks for the corrective post btw, i just finished reading "the glass palace" by amitav gosh (very good)in which he waxes absolutely lyrical about nonya food describing it as the last great food secret - unfortunately it remains so here in chicago. attached is a review from the nytimes of the book Link: http://search.nytimes.com/plweb-cgi/fastweb?state_id=1010088589&view=book-rev&numhitsfound=14&query=glass%20palace&&docid=176&docdb=bookrev-cur&dbname=bookrev-cur&dbname=bookrev-arch&numresults=10&operator=AND&TemplateName=doc.tmpl&setCookie=1 Thu Jan 03 15:10:44 -0800 2002 56767 0 zim 5 56824 Actually, I agreed largely with the points that you made, but the point I was trying to add (and I unfortunately did not do that with clarity) was that sometimes, it's not what's in the food or how it's prepared that defines it as belonging under a certain label, but additional historical and sociological factors. (And the fact that I'm kinda homesick for that food...) Thu Jan 03 23:17:55 -0800 2002 56779 0 Limster 2 4474441 You are so wrong about "French-Vietnamese"cuisines. No its not for marketing person. How the name came about. Was in the day of the war. Alot of french soldiers were in Vietnam. But of course the blend of vietnamese and french food was invented. There was no butter in vietnamese cooking back then. Why you think alot of vietnamese can speak French?? Alot of people were mix born half vietnamese and french. So alot of the food the vietnamese learn from the french and combine into their own. Just like the vietnamese coffee. Have you ever been to New Orleans and have their famous beignet. Would you be surprised it from vietnamese family???? They learn it from the French. So there is such a thing called French Vietnamese. lets say it was the influence during the war. Wed Mar 04 17:52:26 -0800 2009 56671 271801 blackrosedragon 1 56692 I'm not interested in the marketing ploys of restaurants. If the food is delicious, they can call it anything they want. Obviously some people like to get on their high horse to show how clever they are. I was just trying to describe the types of places that serve Vietnamese Roast Crab and Garlic Noodles and I would like to try and replicate the sauce as closely as possible. That's it. Wed Jan 02 18:04:25 -0800 2002 56659 0 La Bouche 1 56699 Its a funny thread we got going here. It never ceases to amaze me what will set people off. I have been watching this thread because I have the same problem as you. I have not been able to duplicate it at home either. And I've searched online for recipes but I get the feeling its so basic, nobody has published it which makes me feel like a loser for not getting it right. I may break down and beg for the recipe from a restaurant. If I find the answer, I'll definitely post it. Wed Jan 02 20:08:58 -0800 2002 56659 0 Rochelle McCune 2 56747 Dear Rochelle, It's nice to know that someone else has attempted to try to recreate the sauce. I love the challenge of tasting something and then trying to duplicate it and it sounds like you do too. I don't think we'll ever get the answer directly from the restaurant no matter how much you beg, as I understand the owners have a locked area of the kitchen where they create the sauce and none of the employees have any access to it. One thing about the sauce disturbs me a little, and that is when I've eaten the roast crab at the restaurant, it tends to coagulate a little once it starts to cool off. I hope that is just the butter and not some kind of animal fat such as LARD!! I know both are unhealthy in large quantities, but butter for some reason just seems nicer than lard! I've gotten a couple of suggestions, which I will try. I will keep you posted. Thu Jan 03 12:56:19 -0800 2002 56699 0 La Bouche 3 56753 Yeah, I know that at Thanh Longh they won't tell me - believe me, I've tried. And we always try to stage our food there so at least we can finish the garlic noodles before they cool 'cause they do the same coagulation thing as the crab. Here's one of the things that I've been pondering - do they put garlic in the water with the boiling noodles? That might explain the why the noodles are so infused with garlic flavor & why the garlic is so light in color but not too bitter. So the recipe would be --- Boil the garlic & noodles. Drain, toss noodles in butter. Quickly, smash the garlic and make the magic ingrediant sauce. Pour over the noodles. Toss. Plate. Confound the patron. It would also explain why there is so much butter in the dish. Thu Jan 03 13:16:21 -0800 2002 56747 0 Rochelle McCune 4 56773 Do you think maybe they use garlic powder IN the noodles, or in the sauce? That might explain light color/intense garlic flavor. Thu Jan 03 14:46:22 -0800 2002 56753 0 dixieday 5 56778 Arrgh! Maybe. But I draw the line at making my own noodles so if they use it IN the noodles, well, it will be a lot harder to duplicate the dish. Thu Jan 03 14:57:17 -0800 2002 56773 0 Rochelle McCune 1 56728 Dear La Bouche, Sorry for the "lively" digression that occurred -- I've not seen such a large departure from the main topic in ages. You're absolutely right in trying to set us back to the topic at hand, which is how to get that sauce made. In other words, if I understood you correctly, how do we cook dishes like Thahn Long or Jasmine House at home? I must first confess my inexperience at cooking vietnamese, but in a couple of ways it bears a resemblance to Chinese cooking, so I'll make a few educated guesses. I would suggest the following - use lots more garlic, some shallots, some finely chopped ginger. Other possible things to try - soy sauce, and a dash of white or black pepper. These are some of the standard seasonings I throw into a stir-fry, and I suspect that you'll be able to hit on the right combination. Another potential seasoning to try is sugar - just a tiny bit - not enough to make things sweet, but sufficient to make a difference to the palate. Good luck on your "experiments" -- I hope you'll return with interesting results. Thu Jan 03 03:27:43 -0800 2002 56659 0 Limster 2 56750 Dear Limster, Thanks for the suggestions. I will try adding shallots and a dash of sugar. I already put tons of garlic, but somehow it never tastes or smells as fragrant. Maybe I overcook the garlic. I will try just heating it through to get rid of the "hot" taste of raw garlic. I am curious if you have tried these two dishes. You didn't mention it. If not, you really should. My husband who is very picky and hates to eat with his hands is addicted to them. So you see, solving the puzzle might improve my marriage!! Thu Jan 03 13:03:12 -0800 2002 56728 0 La Bouche 3 56761 I last had these dishes at Thahn Long about 5 years ago. Haven't been back - there's just too many places to try in SF. :) Yes - I think frying the garlic in oil to mellow out the flavor will be a good idea. Maybe frying even to the extent that they are almost crispy. I just made a fish dish recently, and topped it off with some garlic and shallots that I had fried until they were crispy - made a huge difference. Thu Jan 03 13:59:25 -0800 2002 56750 0 Limster 1 56765 One of my friends got the recipe for garlic noodles from one of the family members of Crustacean a couple years back. Seems she went out on a date with him once, and he gave up the goods. What I recall her telling me was to saute some garlic in butter, add a splash of soy sauce, sugar, and msg (if you want). then toss with noodles and parmesan cheese. Let me know if this works. Thu Jan 03 14:12:00 -0800 2002 56659 0 simon 2 56768 you really think he gave up the recipe? I doubt it. Most of the stuffs he gave her, you can find the recipe in any vnese cookbook. What makes their noodles so good, is something i doubt he would tell her. Thu Jan 03 14:27:27 -0800 2002 56765 0 chowguy 3 56771 Well, we're all entitled to our opinions. I was merely trying to help the original poster with her request, rather than trying to stir things up more. So please, if you have any other suggestions, please do not hesitate to share them. Thu Jan 03 14:43:09 -0800 2002 56768 0 simon 4 56820 sorry i didn't mean to put you down. Thu Jan 03 21:56:30 -0800 2002 56771 0 chowguy 3 56776 jeez, chowguy, why are you so cranky? have some garlic noodles and chill out. Or at least take your snarky mood elsewhere. Thu Jan 03 14:48:52 -0800 2002 56768 0 phogirl 1 56831 I've never tried to duplicate the noodles, but I've experimented with the crab. Mine has never been exactly like Thanh Long's, and I did want it to be a bit different. I think Thanh Long uses dried garlic granules, not fresh garlic, and I think they combine some hydrogenated vegetable fat with butter. And I agree with the others that there's probably sugar in the crab, definitely some in the noodles. For the crab: use live crab. Kill it, clean out the gills and excess water. Chop up the body, crack the claws. Heat up the oven to 450F. (You could try pan frying, too). Grind a lot of garlic--at least 1 heaping tablespoon crushed garlic per crab-- with a lot of black peppercorns and salt. Mix with an equal amount or more of softened butter. Spread the butter over the crab pieces and bake until done. Good luck, and do let us know what you find. Fri Jan 04 00:34:49 -0800 2002 56659 0 Pia 1 4474408 I have a pretty good idea of how it is made. But definitely I could tell you...there is no nuoc mam or anchovies or sesame oil in it. The big secret is they dont use fresh garlic. It's granulated garlic. Soy sauce is another ingredients but your gonna have to guess which one. Mix the soy sauce with water and sugar. Parmasaen cheese is right. But only add when ready to serve. There is msg also. Its the kind of noodle u use it must be the egg noodle fresh will be best. once boiled add salt and msg. It think I gave you enough info. Try it!! go to costco for the granulated garlic. believe it or not microwave is the bi secret. add all ingredients and put in the microwave and serve immediately. Wed Mar 04 17:41:55 -0800 2009 56659 271801 blackrosedragon 2 4474439 Do you think in 7 years their search has been answered? Here is an attempt at the recipe from 2008. http://www.rasamalaysia.com/2008/06/crustacean-inspired-garlic-noodles-and.html Wed Mar 04 17:51:36 -0800 2009 4474408 105235 wolfe 2 4475189 I complete agree with blackrosedragon that the secret is the granulated garlic. I have made this dish many a times with all the different ingredients mentioned on the post and the one that turns out the most similar to that of Thanh Long is the granulated garlic microwaved with the mix of butter and canola oil spread. I of course mix it with many other ingredients but the key is the granulated garlic and the mix of butter and another kind of oil that seems to be the things that make the difference. I have had many friends ask me for this same recipe because it taste so similar to the Thanh Long one. As for the garlic noodles - I use to work at a restaurant that serves garlic noodles too and what they did was infuse their oil with lots of garlic. This mixture would sit for days and then when they made the noodles they would heat the butter and then put plenty of this garlic oil mixture into the butter and then mix everything together. It would also be topped with parmasean. Thu Mar 05 01:54:53 -0800 2009 4474408 15111 misspiggy 1 4474871 Funny to see this thread resurrected after so long, as well as to read thru the 95+% of the replies that did little to address the OP's original question.......vbg. I haven't eaten at Crustacean in years, but remembered that the noodles had a nutty overtone (to me). Wanting to try and replicate them, I figured out that the way to get the brown sauce with a nutty taste was to boil down Chinese shaoxing cooking wine. My sauce starts with some finely chopped garlic sauteed quickly in olive oil, then the shaoxing wine is added. When it comes close to boiling down to a sauce, add a good amount of butter. Noodles (I like to use Shanghai noodles) should be prepped by adding to boiling water, then immediately turning off the heat so they don't cook completely. After draining water, add the almost cooked noodles to the sauce mixture, toss a number of times to incorporate, then throw Parmesan cheese over it all and put the lid back on. Wait about 5 minutes for the cheese to melt and the noodles to complete cooking, and you're good to go. Reading the link above, I'll tinker with the addition of oyster sauce and chicken stock or bouillon to see if this improves on things. Wed Mar 04 20:32:10 -0800 2009 56659 11011 Eugene Park