179003 Wed Jun 12 13:55:51 -0700 2002 28 15 Pennsylvania 0 962749 So the inquirer is reporting that Red Lobster and Chili's are looking to move into the 13th/Filbert area, and Olive Garden is opening near Broad and Chestnut. And of course we already have Hard Rock and Friday's on the parkway. So should we see this as a boon, brightening up questionable blocks like 13th/Chestnut? Or a blight, taking business away from local restuarants and genericising the food scene? -=$>Dave<$=- Wed Jun 12 13:55:51 -0700 2002 0 JugglerDave 1 962752 One thing the Inky didn't mention is that two other chains are already near or at 13th and Filbert, Maggio's Little It'ly and Hard Rock Cafe. On the whole it seems like a bad thing, but basically these things are for stupid suburbanite tourists who wouldn't patronize great local places anyway. It's a shame as they don't know what they're missing and don't really care. As I travel around the USA, I am amazed at the generica that surrounds all major cities. I guess we will have to tolerate some generica around the downtown touristy areas, such as the convention center. It's OK though, the adventurous types will pass right by that stuff and search out the local treasures. Wed Jun 12 14:32:22 -0700 2002 962749 0 Scoats 2 962759 These things are multiplying like fleas! It takes business away from local businesses that both live and work in our communities. Wed Jun 12 17:06:47 -0700 2002 962752 0 Saucyknave 3 962764 All these chains are opening up in the area of the Convention Center. I suspect they aren't looking for Philadelphians but rather for conventioneers who, as I wrote elsewhere, are looking more for the unadventurous comfort and safe mediocrity of Olive Garden, Red Lobster and Chili's than for good eating. Then again I was also amazed and offended when Subway opened in the home of the Hoagie, but they seem to be doing ok, and are probably serving more locals than tourists. Holly Moore HollyEats.Com Link: http://www.hollyeats.com Wed Jun 12 19:15:38 -0700 2002 962759 0 Holly Moore 4 962766 On the issue of chains vs. locals: Are the aforementioned chains or franchises? My impression is that at least Subway is a franchise and, thus, _both_ benefiting a national/multinational corporation _and_ (at least potentially) a local businessperson. What about Hard Rock, Olive Garden, Chili's, etc.? I have no idea. More importantly, though, I think, it's not so much a question of whether a local businessperson is profiting (I don't weep a lot of tears for the upper levels of the bourgeoisie loosing money to the even higher levels of the same--owners are owners are owners on some level). The real question is whether a bunch of the local underclass is being employed, treated with respect, and paid a reasonable wage. I've worked for small businesses, franchises, and chains in a number of industries, and found _absolutely no_ correlation between business type and employee treatement. Yes, some local businesses think of themselves as part of a community and "give back" in numerous ways, but plenty are owned by jerks who live in the suburbs and don't do more than pay lip service to such ideas. The level of elitism in this thread has apparently pushed my buttons. So here it is: sure, it's nice for the city to have great one-off restaurants, but what percentage of the city's residents can afford a meal at, to pick a name out of the air, Palette? I'm no great fan of multinationals, but, ah, whatever.... Gabriel Wed Jun 12 19:34:31 -0700 2002 962764 0 Gabriel Solis 5 962767 Well, if the chains are looking to pick up conventioneers, then what does that do to the individual merchants of Reading Terminal, for example? I would agree that Center City is in need of a few more midpriced eateries, where you can pick up entrees in the $9-14 range rather than the more typical $13-22+ of most CC estabishments. And the chains will likely attract tourist families who are looking for recognition and few surprises. (And child-friendly atmosphere). And lastly, I would rather see a chain adding to city vibrancy (and traffic in the evening hours) than a storefront sit empty for years. -=$>Dave<$=- Wed Jun 12 19:44:57 -0700 2002 962766 0 JugglerDave 6 962768 The arrival of McD's, Pizza Hut, The Gap, KFC, Mail Box Etc, and all the rest has taken a lot away from South Street, evolving it towards an urban, suburban mall. Their presence has pushed up real estate rents and prices, keeping away the start up businesses that made South Street and forcing out the long time small business tenants when their lease comes up for renewal. Sort of the WalMarting of South Street. I'd much rather see a store front sit vacant for a few or more years until some entrepeur comes along with a viable concept. Once a chain gets in, like a single cockroach, it won't go away and, more often then not, it will signal a green light for other chains/cockroaches. I've always maintained that major cities are where the gastronimically unwashed come to broaden their horizons and learn what good cooking is all about. If instead visitors come to Philadelphia and find familiar safe havens such as can be found on any suburban highway anywhere in the country, they won't be forced to venture out into the restaurant community that has made Philadelphia a world class restaurant city. I take it as an insult when Subway comes to Philadelphia, invading our turf. I hang my head in defeat that born and bred Philadelphians sustain Subway, opting for a bland "sub" in the city of "hoagies." It is a very bad thing that Olive Garden, Red Lobster, and Chili's are coming to Center City Philadelphia. Holly Moore HollyEats.Com Link: http://www.hollyeats.com Wed Jun 12 20:25:19 -0700 2002 962767 0 Holly Moore 3 962788 holly, rest assured when i go to philly this saturday for the oriole/phillies game, i'll be eating at shank & evelyn's, the 9th st market, bassett's at reading terminal, and maybe melrose or oregon ave diner (not full meals at each. i'd starve before i ate any fast food in philly and there are many of your (and my) ilk who will do so, regardless of the fast-food influx. k Thu Jun 13 11:57:32 -0700 2002 962759 0 kok 2 962771 You mean Smith & Wollinsky, Ruth's Chris, The Palm and Capital Grill as well as Mortons are not chains????? Think of Olive Garden as "Morton's For The masses" Wed Jun 12 21:44:01 -0700 2002 962752 0 Steve 3 962776 All the places you've mentioned are steakhouses and I find it interesting that I can't think of a single "stand-alone" steakhouse in all of Philadelphia or environs. Even The Library is somewhat of a regional chain. Can anyone think of a single steakhouse in this area that isn't part of a national or regional chain, or is it just me? To answer the original thread - I agree that chains are just a multiplication of mediocrity, but they are appealing to certain types of folks that put money back into the city's economy in other ways, so it's a bit of a tradeoff. The more tourists and conventioneers that opt for the "safe" and recognizable choices, the more seats there are in Philadelphias fine restaurants for local Chowhounds! Thu Jun 13 00:40:09 -0700 2002 962771 0 Katie Benes 4 962777 The only stand-alone steakhouse I can think of is KANSAS CITY PRIME. And no one ever thinks of that place. Strange. Thu Jun 13 03:30:36 -0700 2002 962776 0 Rich Pawlak 5 962778 Not strange to me Rich. After the experiences I had last year and others on board said they had similar ones, there's little reason to go back. Steve Thu Jun 13 06:59:31 -0700 2002 962777 0 Steve 4 962780 Would "Saloon" be considered a stand-alone steakhouse? Thu Jun 13 08:40:23 -0700 2002 962776 0 JugglerDave 5 962801 I know there is a Saloon steakhouse in Chicago, so I thought they were probably a chain, but not sure. I guess it could be a coincidence. Fri Jun 14 02:12:27 -0700 2002 962780 0 Persephone 4 962810 Well, it isn't in center city, but as you asked a regional question, the Seven Stars in Phoenixville is a local product and has pretty much a steakhouse menu. Fri Jun 14 09:12:01 -0700 2002 962776 0 Chris Holst 2 962793 Why is it necessary to slam chain restaurants and those who dine there when praising the higher end, independent establishments? After reading quotes such as "appealing to certain types of folks", "basically these things are for stupid suburbanite tourists" and "we will have to tolerate some generica", I suppose that I have finally realized that I'm at a site where I do not belong. I am often offended by what I perceive as elitist attitudes such as "If you like what we don't, there is something wrong with you", and that's what I feel is creeping in to some of these discussions. I enjoy imported beer and I equally enjoy "yellow American" beer, much as I enjoy Godiva chocolates and Hershey Kisses. They are different but I do not find one inferior to the other. I enjoy fine dining and I enjoy the cheeseburger special at a diner (a real diner, not a modern, Hollywood-style recreation of a diner - which can also be enjoyable). My world has a time and a place for the entire spectrum of dining experiences. What if I go to Olive Garden and find a dish that I really like. Should I be ashamed of myself, say three Hail Marys and go crawling to Studiokitchen, begging for forgiveness? Thanks to chain restaurants, I can be in a state hundreds of miles from home and get a familiar meal with reasonable service and little risk. Risk is fun, risk is exciting, but I don't always want it when I'm tired, hungry and on the road. Please don't say that "chains may have a right to exist, just not in this area or that neighborhood". That's the same fight with anything from gas stations to cellular towers. I want them, but near you, not me. If the local restaurant can serve the right meal with the right service at an appropriate price (there's the catch), then it will usually survive against the competition of chain restaurants. If it can't match these criteria, tell me why it should stay in business. I apologize in advance if I have started a flame war, but I hope that I too have the right to post my opinions, even though they may conflict with 95% of the posters here. That's all, and yes, I will have fries with that. Thu Jun 13 20:39:36 -0700 2002 962752 0 BobbyD 3 962797 While I agree with your perception of elitism by some of the postings as regards "chain restaurants", I find the response of "hail mary and crawling to studiokitchen" for forgiveness as unwarranted and absurd. Studiokitchen does not preach any culinary philosophy, we do what we do, others do wahat they do. We have no interest nor do we care what kind of food people go out to eat or where. Our only goal is to focus on what we do and satisfy those that we cater to. The philadelphia food scene is becoming more and more one of insecure people who can only stand tall by putting others down. Studiokitchen has preached no mantra that everyone should go to boutique restaurants. This high end places actually are the antithesis of our culinary philosophy. We really are not into dining theatres with no culinary soul whether they come as a pseudo italian chain like olive garden or a high style PR driven "Italian" concept with weak $28 entrees. Thu Jun 13 23:46:41 -0700 2002 962793 0 Thomas @ studiokitchen 4 962799 I sincerely do apologize. I had no reason to pick your restaurant as an example. I was writing with my heart and not my head, and chose a name at random for my rant. Unfortunately, it was a completely undeserving target and was poor judgment on my part. My problem is with some posts here, not specific restaurants, and in no way with studiokitchen. Please accept my apology. BobbyD Fri Jun 14 00:19:25 -0700 2002 962797 0 BobbyD 5 962805 No problem Bobbyd, apology accepted. We actually agree with your point. people should be free to make dining choices they want even if it is at the olive garden. I was told chowhound was about an alternative food forum for non pretentious "foodies" but I sense a small undercurrent of elitism. As much as people may love for all tourists to visit the local "treasures", you cannot dictate taste to people. All you will succeed in doing is alienating them. Remember this, "those who live in glass houses should not throw stones". By trying to criticise other peoples choices, all you do is expose yourself to scrutiny in other ways. If you decide to consider someone a simpleton because they eat at olive garden, why should they not consider you a simpleton because you read the Philly Inquirer as opposed to the NY Times or Wash. Post. At the end of the day, we all lose. You should do what you like and let others do the same without criticism. As a matter of fact, a lot of our wealthy surburban clients who take thier kids to Olive garden consider the whole center city BYOB "treasures" to difficult to plan ahead and completely impractical no matter how much of a bargain it is to bring your wine. Fri Jun 14 07:30:13 -0700 2002 962799 0 james@studiokitchen 6 962813 Actually James I think a forum like Chowhound is fine for the foodie and the non-foodie (un-foodie?) and for the pretentious and the non pretentious. (Smile) Holly Moore HollyEats.Com Link: http://www.hollyeats.com Fri Jun 14 10:56:06 -0700 2002 962805 0 Holly Moore 6 962820 For all you simpletons out there beware I only read the NYtimes, WSJ and Financial Times (I really do). Haha, couldn't resist when I saw the previous post, sadly I have to admit I have no clue when it comes to local happenings and depend on this board and people around me to stay informed. Fri Jun 14 18:30:10 -0700 2002 962805 0 SG 3 962800 I think it's pretty obvious that I'm not all that partial to high end dining experiences, not that I will pass them up when I have the opportunity. But I'm really happier foraging about for a great clam shack or barbecue joint or a hot dog cart manned by an 82 year old who's been on the same corner for 49 years. In this string I have objected to chains the like of Olive Garden, Red Lobster and Chili's coming to Philadelphia. It sucks, but I am not all that worried because Philadelphia can absorb them and still the independents will flourish. I have a greater problem with chains outside of the major cities. There are smaller towns, many many smaller towns, where the chains have driven the independents out of business. Now there are only chains in those small towns. Most interstate exits are only chains - one has to drive 5-10 miles of country road to find a good independent restaurant. Even the truckstops are now chains, faking home cooking, deep fat frying or "reconstituting" everything. Not only are the chains Wal-marting the suburban and rural independents, they are educating generations of future diners. For these young gullets, Olive Garden Italian and Red Lobster seafood become the benchmark - as at good as it gets. This is sad because it can be so much better. Just as parents who never finished high school want their kids to graduate college, I want suburban and rural America to know that Olive Garden is mediocre to just plain bad Italian and that all seafood doesn't have to be overcooked and arrive aswim in glistening orangeish psudo butter a la Red Lobster. It's not a level of cuisine issue. A joint like Marra's beats Olive Garden by a mile. I also have trouble with the position that chains are great because one can find a know entity thousands of miles from home. Boring!!! Where is the adventure in that? One of the joys of travel is hopefully seeking out new dining experiences. As to Studio Kitchen I wouldn't know. Haven't gotten there yet. If I can ever find seven other people that can stand my company through an entire multi-course dinner, I'm dying to go. It sounds wonderful. Holly Moore HollyEats.Com Link: http://www.hollyeats.com Fri Jun 14 00:45:39 -0700 2002 962793 0 Holly Moore 4 963506 There are smaller towns, many many smaller towns, where the chains have driven the independents out of business. Now there are only chains in those small towns. Most interstate exits are only chains - one has to drive 5-10 miles of country road to find a good independent restaurant. Not to mention that when those chains go out of business, or pull out of certain areas due to balance sheet problems, they usually leave hulking shells behind that stay dormant for quite a while. (Hardshell Cafe, anyone?) In rural areas where the landscape's been flattened substantially by the encroachment of chains, the decisions that are made from above can create a totally scorched-earth look. Could this happen in Philadelphia? I suspect that Center City's strong enough that it won't turn into a total urban wasteland, but some restaurants may still close. (See this WSJ article on the effects of chains in other cities.) But this rise in chains also means that the money from tourism won't necessarily benefit Philadelphia as much as it could. (There could be some interesting adoptions to the post-chain world, such as the Thai restaurant on Long Island that was created from the remains of a Pizza Hut (the roof and some of the interior are still intact). See also deadmalls.com -- a directory of retail centers that are currently dormant.) Fri Jul 26 16:12:10 -0700 2002 962800 0 maura 3 962812 Hi, Bobby First, welcome to the site. It's kind of buried in my motivational speech below (gg), so I'd like to emphasize that I missed the snobby remarks made around here about people who eat in chains. I don't like chains, myself (explanation below), but anyone who uses their chow know-how to feel superior and put people down is being jerky, and really really antithetical to the Chowhound spirit. So please accept my apologies. If *I* see people settling for relatively undelicious food, I don't smirk and snarl, I transmit the chowhound virus by tipping them with great passion to something great...then watch enviously as they have the mind-blowing experience of realizing how inspiring and gratifying even the most ordinary experiences can be if they just make careful choices and refuse to settle for less. It's not about economics or class at ALL, nor is it about "independent restaurants." That's not it. Let me try to explain at least where *I'M* coming from with this site, and in regard to chains. My aim isn't at ALL to put down you or your preferences; it's to get you excited by the idea that even ordinary things can - MUST! - be extraordinary. That's my job! I'm as anti-snobbish as it gets. I conceived Chowhound as a home for those who believe deliciousness is deliciousness; that anything cooked with great skill, pride, and love -- whatever the genre, price, neighborhood, or setting -- is equally deserving of admiration and respect. An amazing taco is no less culinarily worthy than great seared foie gras. 1945 Chateau Lafite is a great drink, but not intrinsically more inspiring than a perfect banana milkshake. Different pleasures can be enjoyed in different settings at different prices, and chowhounds embrace all spectrums (to their budgetary limits)...just so long as it's delicious. But chains are not about deliciousness. If anyone involved with food prep at any stage of the factory-like operation at a chain restaurant tries to invest their personal love, caring, or talent (the qualities that create deliciousness) into the process, that person is putting his/her job in jeopardy. Chains are, by their very nature, about factory-like mass production; more akin to putting together a Ford Escort than cooking. We've had Olive Garden workers mention on these boards that just about everything comes from cans. Can canned stuff be made delicious by the right hands? For sure. Ingredients are mere fodder. But places like Olive Garden are not about hands. They're about completely eliminating the human input of hands. If they had to depend on skill and talent and love in their cooks, they would not be able to standardize their product. It's not about hands, it's cans combined by mindless cogs. And while I'll defend anyone's right to say they happen to like the taste of cans combined by cogs, I personally don't see it as simply another part of the spectrum of deliciousness. Taste differs and there are few absolutes, but a chowhound without discernment is just an eater, and standardization, canned drek, and mindless cogs are the antithesis of the skill/pride/love which yield the soulful deliciousness chowhounds passionately pursue. Disparaging chains is not snobbery. Disparaging those who like them, however, certainly is, and I can't stand that (if I'd noticed it going on in this board, I'd have put a quick end to it). Hate the eats, love the eater. Everyone has had the experience of eating something so utterly delicious that eyes shut and fist pounded tabletop. Not everyone has come to the realization that this needn't be a rare occurrence; that one needn't settle for less. Bobby, I respect your right to like Olive Garden, but I'd bet my chowmobile that you've NEVER closed eyes and pounded your fist over a bite there. And, you've gotta understand...I NEED you to do that! I will not be a happy hound until you feel CHEATED when that fails to happen!! You DESERVE deliciousness!!! Chowhound puts forth the contagious idea that if you just drive a little further, work a little harder, you can make more occasions special occasions, and experience life a rich, giddy adventure. If I, as a chowhound, suspect you are missing great stuff, it doesn't make me feel superior. Quite the contrary, I'm jealous of all the enjoyment you have to look forward to, and am anxious to provide tips (and see what you come up with on your own!). But please understand that the idea that one must pay more in order to eat delicious food is pure snobbery. It's not true. There is ample deliciousness to be found at all price levels...it just involves hunting around. That's what we chowhounds do...we hunt around. We don't "settle." For anyone who'd like to join the chowhound hunt, we're here to be your diary, your back-up, your reference source, and your discussion group all in one! People - in all sorts of settings and in every area - are cooking great stuff RIGHT NOW, so I'd suggest that it's a waste of time sitting around debating the worthiness of chains. There's awesome stuff deserving to be found and patronized, and debating Olive Garden et al isn't 1/1000000th as invigorating as rushing in your front door to post to this board about, say, sensational barbecued ribs you just discovered on the north end of Philly (hint: look for a truck weekend nights at delfield and 18th). Wouldn't it be cool to blow into the site with something really GREAT you just found? It's not hard. People are lazy, so, chances are, any great discovery you make will be a completely virgin find. And as your finds rack up, you'll be amazed by how much more exciting and delicious life starts to get. I've made hundreds of finds. My secret? I never ever get a muffin in the same deli or bakery twice. It's really that simple: taking a different route to work every day so I can try a different muffin. I don't settle for the same lousy muffin. I don't even settle for the same GOOD muffin, once I've found it. The quest is never-ending, and fertile with life-changing finds (and it's not just about food...it's about people and other cultures and art and supporting the good guys and shaking off the ubiquitous hypnosis of mass marketing). ciao Fri Jun 14 10:15:45 -0700 2002 962793 0 Jim Leff 3 962814 Hey Bobby! I am sorry you got shall we say a bad taste from this board or community. You know the issue, I think is not economics but pure deliciousness. And I think there is a fear that chains work more on conveniance , and simplicity and yes economics than the actual taste satisfaction of their cliental. Does it mean they do things badly ? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Forexample , I love fried clams at Ho JO's or I love the memory of them can't be sure honestly. But when chains become ubiquitious and the small chef/artist can't compete then we are in trouble. Anyway when I read your post I think people are missing your point , that taste is subjective . You are not defending Olive Garden per se but the right to like Olive Garden. You are right food and taste covers a large spectrum and every meal desrves its due. ( I mix my metaphors ) But this community feels protective of you and wants to make sure you get the best possible taste. They'll challenge you , poke at you but not to be mean but just to make sure you have explored options. Thats all. And I think thats the reason why people come here for swapping, sharing and solace in the search for that perfect elusive bite. Emails often are easily misconstrued despite these idiotic symbols we have developed to solve the problem. ( Talk about lazy using symbols to convey emotions isn't that a form of "chain writing " but I digress) So Bobby as a lurker on these boards I am sorry if people were nasty. They can be intimidating but I think because the job of finding is one of the more serious pleasurable pursuits we have these days. So tell me about that diner. I love diner food. Fri Jun 14 11:43:01 -0700 2002 962793 0 bb 3 962821 The reason I live in the city is to avoid the generic trash that has destroyed so much of this country. If the place that I live succumbs to being like everywhere else then my little sanctuary has lost its appeal. Unfortunately, to some extent, chains in the city will take business away from independent restaurants. Sure, the best independents will survive but some independents will definitely suffer and some will definitely vanish as a result. The sad fact is that all too often the bad drives out the good. The lowest common demoninator often rules. This is as true of restaurants as it is of the pap that passes for television these days. It may well be possible to find the odd decent dish at a chain restaurant (just as one can certainly find bad dishes at independent restaurants) but I for one refuse to eat at chains on principle. They invite people to wear blinkers, to accept mediocrity and seek to make everything the same and too many people are content to let them. Chains restaurants: stay in your malls and your four lane highways (if you must) but keep out of Philadelphia. Fri Jun 14 18:40:47 -0700 2002 962793 0 Mazarin 3 962849 Bobby, I'm sorry if you were offended by my posting. This is a place where people are passionate about food. Often passion and careful language are exclusive. I guess I have spent too much time with the DDC. Yeah, blame them! One of the things I was trying to convey is what's the point of going to another city and eating at The Olive Garden? The average Hard Rock Cafe customer travels 200 miles. Seriously what's the point? Why leave home? I was standing outside the Plymouth Meeting mall about a year ago looking westward, I believe, with the mall and its chain bar restaurants to my back, looking forward through a vast parking lot towards a windy road with chain hotels and generica low-rise office buildings at the edge. I realized that I saw this before EXACTLY outside of San Diego, outside of Denver. I realized that I could be anywhere in the USA. I had a similiar feeling at Jillian's in Franklin Mills last year. It was a fine place, but could have been anywhere, 100% generica, a prepackaged "experience". Life is too short and too precious to eat medicore food. One doesn't have to spend lots of money to eat great. Some of my most memorable meals have been at places like La Posta - a Pat's Steak type Mexican place in San Diego, the hotel coffee shop in Monte Vista CO (amazing breakfast barrito), Little Annies (incredible pork chop) in Aspen, the fry bread burger in Four Corners, an off the main street cantina in Tijuanna (outrageously great sandwich), a buffalo burger at the Buffalo Cafe in Idaho Springs CO, a South Philly hoagie. With the exception of La Posta, all of these places where found by luck. There were chain options in or near all of those places. There are some good chains, like Roy's Jr, Hoss's and Penang, but the Olive Garden isn't one of them. Others and I live in the city because we love the variety and diversity, the unique sense of place. We know we are freaks, very outside of the generica that the majority of the country experiences as normal and everyday. We willing pay a price to live in cities to avoid the generica, so seeing it set up camp in town will of course concern us. Rightly or wrongly, being outnumbered and surrounded breeds some snobbery into us. The suburbs in the US have already become amazingly, blandly uniform across the country. It would be a shame to have our downtowns follow suit. With the chaining of South Street and the proposed Penns Landing development, this is already happening. I hope you continue posting. It's the differences of opinion and experiences that make this board and this country interesting. Tue Jun 18 09:45:43 -0700 2002 962793 0 Scoats 1 962794 where was the article? i'd like to read it myself. thanx. Thu Jun 13 21:37:19 -0700 2002 962749 0 herbalicious 1 965820 Is this Dave Gillis? See you Sat. for Barnes visit. Love, Ferne Fri Mar 14 07:57:18 -0800 2003 962749 0 Ferne