166274 Thu Sep 19 19:27:22 -0700 2002 12 14 Washington DC & Baltimore Area 0 888305 It includes a summary feature at the beginning entitled "SEVENTEEN UNKNOWN PLACES YOU MUST TRY." At least eight of the 17 have been discussed (and thus are not "unknown") on this Board. Link: http://www.gmu.edu/jbc/Tyler/ethnic.html Thu Sep 19 19:27:22 -0700 2002 0 Marty L. 1 888309 Hmm, a little earlier in September we had two consecutive threads, one about Joe's Noodle House and the other on Mark's Duck House. And wasn't there a board gathering at A&J? Go to Seven Seas on Christmas Day, you'll know the definition of "thoroughly discovered". I'll second his vote for the crispy whole fish Hunan style, yum... Fri Sep 20 01:13:07 -0700 2002 888305 0 coastcat 1 888317 The guy is remarkable. A true local treasure. Thanks again, Tyler. -Bill Fri Sep 20 09:02:49 -0700 2002 888305 0 Pappy 1 888334 Since I'm new-ish to the DC area, I recently tried a couple of places on Mr. Cowen's list and was pretty disappointed. The ceviche at Santa Rosa was rubbery and metallic-tasting; Grill from Ipanema was bland and seriously overpriced. Did I just have bad luck? Do I need to readjust my expectations? (I moved here from NYC--ok! ok! I'm a snob!) Have others found this list to be reliable? Fri Sep 20 12:48:04 -0700 2002 888305 0 Elsie 2 888356 There are about a dozen different things I could say to you at this point. I will try and confine them to a few: [a] Tyler Cowen has never declared his guide 'definitive'. And that is a good thing, because there are few things I can tolerate less than individuals who think cuisine can be evaluated objectively (you will notice the Chowhounds board is riddled with characters that do this). [b] Keep in mind that you need to consult multiple review sources BEFORE going to a restaurant rather than attending once and consulting AFTER. In my opinion, it is obsurd to read one review and hit the restaurant [lest of course the reviewer has consistently matched your tastes]. Washington DC has dozens of other reviewing bodies: Washingtonian, Washington Post, Internet newsgroups, Digital City, etc. [c] Keep in mind that you had ONE visit and ONE dish at each eatery. In my opinion, it is obsurd [and by no means scientific] to eliminate a restaurant based on one experience. There are dozens of variables that affect a dining experience, from the substitute staff to the availability of certain ingredients, especially fish. [d] Tyler noted in his review of Grill from Ipanema that the Feijoada was inconsistent. He also noted that other dishes were mediocre. Do think this might explain your disappointment with Ipanema? Sat Sep 21 09:47:55 -0700 2002 888334 0 Jeffrey 3 888357 "Raw ingredients in America are below world standards. Even most underdeveloped countries have better raw ingredients than we do." I find his guide to provide an interesting list and perhaps some insight to a restaurant that I might have overlooked or not be aware of. As for his opinions as long as he believes what I noted above I really can't give him any credibility at all. I may agree with some of his comments on individual restaurants but I have a personal problem with his opinion of American foodsources. I'll even go one step further and suggest that one of the reasons he focuses on ethnic restaurants is a lack of conviction in the success of American food on the world stage. Without adequate indigenous raw sources, according to him, how can we succeed globally? Sorry but for me this is a man who has never had cream from Lewes Dairy, goat cheese from Rucker Farm, Hanover County tomatoes, sweet corn from Poolesville and elsewhere, Maytag bleu cheese, blueberries from Linden, potato chips from Route 11, chilis from Hatch, NM and on and on and on. As for ethnic restaurants he believes that it is ONLY Ethiopean restaurants that are among the best in America? Really. When was the last time he had outstanding Peruvian chicken in San Francisco? Tell me that there is better Korean in New York or Thai in Los Angeles. As good, yes. Better, no. He's probably right in saying that D. C. is third or fourth overall in the quality of ethnic restaurants in America. I have problems with his not accepting that several of our restaurants are national standard by any measurement. Certainly more than just the Ethiopean he gives us credit for. He's put a lot of work and time into his "Guide." I respect this and again, thank him for alerting me to a place that I might have otherwise overlooked. There are just some of his comments including his introductory "multicultural Capitalism..." that immediately condition me to be cautious with anything I read following. While I'm being disagreeable I realize that a professional reviewer will visit a restaurant several times before offering a judgment. I also will read everything I can get my hands on before making a decision to go somewhere, say, in another city or overseas (unless the opinion is from someone whose opinion I trust and whose taste and values I relate to). But more than half (maybe even 90% or more!) of the restaurants I've been to in my life I never returned to. For many once was enough. As for objective evaluation, well, of course by definition taste is subjective. Having said that there are certain "rules" for dishes. There is an expected texture to properly prepared risotto. Not to achieve this texture is to not have properly prepared the dish. Of course a person might say that they prefer mushy rice to individual kernals in a thick creamy base. Well, they will be right in that they prefer mushy rice. They just can't call it risotto. Or if they do then they should call it "mushy" risotto. If the risotto is properly prepared not everyone will like it. Still, while the taste is subjective, the preparation IS objective. It was either prepared properly or it wasn't. Either the correct ingredients were used or they were not. Sat Sep 21 11:16:32 -0700 2002 888356 0 Joe H. 4 888421 Joe H. writes: "Sorry but for me this is a man who has never had cream from Lewes Dairy, goat cheese from Rucker Farm, Hanover County tomatoes, sweet corn from Poolesville and elsewhere, Maytag bleu cheese, blueberries from Linden, potato chips from Route 11, chilis from Hatch, NM and on and on and on." I think this line of critique is unfair to Cowen. Of course there are exceptional producers of great raw ingredients in the U.S. (The Rucker farm goat cheese on those fruited chocolate bars almost made me fall over). Cowen likely knows this. But how typical is it for the prime food products you list to be used by non-exorbitant restaurants? Very unlikely. Cowen's remarks should be understood as referring to the kinds of ingredients most restaurants use. His comments seem less objectionable then, don't you think? Wed Sep 25 22:27:30 -0700 2002 888357 0 PoolBoy 5 888422 To say that "raw ingredients in America are below world standards" is to say exactly that. It is not to imply that certain restaurants-for a price-get better raw ingredients than others. It is an unqualified statement that I took exception to. I believe his words speak for themselves. I also had other criticism including his acknowledging only Ethiopean restaurants as among D. C. area ethnic restaurants that are among the best in America. I used several examples in disputing this. (I should note here that I thought about his dining guide when I had lunch at Crisp and Juicy on Lee Highway today. I would like to find somewhere in America that has better Peruvian chicken than either Crisp and Juicy or several other D. C. area restaurants.) He has done a great deal of work but, for me-perhaps only for me-his values color my perception of what he writes. I respect his efforts but disagree with some of his values. Wed Sep 25 23:07:32 -0700 2002 888421 0 Joe H. 6 888448 I completely agree with his dis on raw ingredients. When I have lived in/traveled to Spain, Mexico, France, et al, I could get a superb meal with great ingredients at a truck stop, shack on the beach, college cafeteria, etc. In many countries, you just can't get bad, low quality ingredients even if you try (unless you buy the mediocre stuff that they are starting to import from the us). Every market in every small town has amazing seasonal, locally grown and caught stuff. It's just a way of life for everyone, not just foodies, chowhounds and folks in the know. Here, you really have to search for the good stuff. And anyone outside of a major metropolitan area really has it bad. You can live right next to a farm and still get your produce from South America! There's just no comparison. America has sold its soul (and its stomach) to factory farms. We've confused volume and selection with quality. Fri Sep 27 13:44:53 -0700 2002 888422 0 butterfly 7 888460 This is an interesting topic that really should be titled separately. I, too, have travelled extensively in Europe. In fact in each of the past four years I've done 5,000 mile driving trips through six countries with numerous appointments lasting from one and one half to almost three weeks. I've probably spent an average of 40 to 50 days each year overseas on business. Trust me. I've taken advantage of this to eat. Whether Michelin starred restaurants or paying twenty euros to have a bite of every cheese in a cheese chop in Bologna. I've stopped at shacks on the side of the road in Italy and found vegetables that I just couldn't believe, bought one, and ate part or all of it raw just to experience it. I also know that the quality of food on the Italian autostradas is far superior to many Italian restaurants in America. (Alan Richman had an interesting article about this.) I've made many meals of proscuitto, freshly cut reggiano, crusty bread and chianti while stopping numerous times in France just to have a baguette and fresh butter for breakfast. Or lunch. I brought back eppouisse before it was legal in America. In Germany I've found bratwurst and currywurst that were incredible-eating them at a stand in Hamburg with the best rye roll I've ever tasted and the best cheap mustard on earth. Sweet white German asparagus? In season I will eat it every night I can get it, every way I can get it. And on and on, through country after country. Having said all this, in larger European cities it is becoming increasingly more difficult to find ON AVERAGE the quality of produce or foodstuff that you mention. Not everyone shops at markets like the enormous one off of Ramblas in Barcelona or the one in the heart of Bologna's old town. Barcelona and Bologna have super markets, just like America. I've been in them. (It's an obsession of mine to go into grocery stores in other countries and spend too much time walking down aisles, looking at what I need to bring home or "sneak" back in my luggage.) Most supermarkets in Europe are no better than America. No better. Just the city markets or small town markets are exactly what you say theyare. Just as farmers' markets are here. And roadside stands here. And artisinal producers. My point is that, yes, I agree, ON AVERAGE there is better quality overall in Europe (I don't know about South America or the Far East). But it is becoming increasingly more difficult to find this there just as it has become increasingly more difficult to find it here. When I was a kid I remember going to an open air market in southeast and plugging watermelons. I don't know of anywhere in D. C. you can do that today. I don't know of anywhere in the D. C. area that makes ice cream totally from scratch outside of several top end restaurants. Forty and fifty years ago there were many places that made ice cream in house totally from scratch and not from a pre made mix supplied by a dairy. You could taste the difference! In how it was packaged too. Hand packed ice cream in Gifford's original containers tasted better. It's rather like drinking Coke out of a bottle as opposed to a can. And, there was better ice cream than Gifford's in the '50's. The original Martin's Dairy on Route 97 in Norbeck. You can still find ice cream like this in America but there just so few left. (Route 100 south of Allentown in Bally, PA is Longacres Dairy Bar, Dietsch's in Findlay, Ohio as examples) America has become homogonized. And Europe is becoming homogonized also. Fortunately not everywhere, certainly not smaller towns and smaller cities in Italy and France and Spain. But for many in the larger cities the markets are fewer and the supermarkets more plentiful. The lifestyles have/are changing. Today there are many in Paris who stop and pick up a baquette for dinner, walk nearby to their butcher, then to the market for produce and go home and prepare it. There are increasingly more who cut corners. Do you have any idea HOW MUCH FROZEN FOOD THERE IS FOR SALE IN MARKETS IN PARIS? Do you know that Robuchon has his own line of frozen food? Robuchon!!! Having said all this in America if you look for it you can find it. Just as you can find it in Europe. Just easier. What does any of this have to do with his comments about native food sources in the U. S.? There are less expensive American restaurants that are excellent values with remarkably good food for the money. I didn't say ethnic. I said American. Agreed they are much harder to find. But they are there. Again you are changing what he said. He didn't say that you can find it if you look for it. Please read his words again. And read my original comments. Also take a look at the interesting usage of the word "capitalist"in his introduction. I've never heard it used in connection with restaurants as he does. Again, for me, I disagree with his epistemology. You accept it. I am reacting more strongly to his work than most others because I really feel he is giving his own city and country no credit. When was the last time you tried to buy cream topped milk at a supermarket in France? You can find it but not as easy as you think. You can find it here also. Lewes Dairy and Chrome Dairy. You can also find guernsey milk and cream here. But you have to look longer. Fri Sep 27 17:56:37 -0700 2002 888448 0 Joe H. 7 888470 In his book Drink: A Social History of America, Andrew Barr touches upon the Americans' quest for quantity over quality. He mentions that a few hundred years ago, an American restaurant would typically serve all the courses at once, so people would pile it on and eat very quickly. Couple this attitude with the country's penchant for commerce, technology and efficiency, and I think you come up with the quality of ingredients that you mention. I am a rabid capitalist, but I have to wonder if the system I love will continue to marginalize quality and good taste in everyday items such as heads of lettuce and apples. You can say the same thing about music, television and literature, for that matter. I suppose capitalism reflects the tastes of the citizenry, so perhaps there's hope for a capitalist society with good taste. Sat Sep 28 07:02:35 -0700 2002 888448 0 Jim Dorsch 3 888362 I dashed off my message re: the Cowen guide rather quickly, so I'm sorry for not making my query a little clearer. I guess I'd mainly meant to inquire whether others had found the guide to be reliable, and if so which listings they'd liked. Since I'd had two less-than-satisfactory experiences with the guide, I was wondering what other 'hounds thought. For the record, I was under no illusion that Cowen's guide was a "definitive" source. Actually part of my motivation for going to Ipanema was because folks on this list had recommended it also. (And, fyi, the Cowen guide describes Ipanema's feijioda as "a treat," not as "inconsistent"--that's the listing for the restaurant below it.) Finally (and again I think this has to do with the hastiness of my post) I ought to mention that at both of the restaurants, I'd gone with several other friends, who ordered different dishes but their responses were similar: that the food was mediocre-to-poor. Sun Sep 22 11:56:48 -0700 2002 888356 0 Elsie 1 888360 He's definitely right about Rita's (actually Rita and Mike's) at 3322 Georgia Ave NW. It is a completely authentic, West Indian treat. I had a roti from there today and it was divine (my mouth is still on fire)! All of the side veggie dishes--garbanzos, collard greens, stew--are great too. And you can eat in, which is a rarity in the lower GA ave/Columbia Heights neighborhood. Definitely one of my neighborhood favorites. Sat Sep 21 19:08:59 -0700 2002 888305 0 butterfly